Come on Pro 12, sort it out.

http://www.v2journal.com/come-on-pro-12-sort-it-out.html
This was supposed to be a match report of the Scarlets' defeat of Edinburgh at Murrayfield. However the whole experience caused me to question the very existence of the Rabo Direct Pro 12.

On Saturday night, a Grassmarket pub showed the Clermont v Biaritz top 14 match followed by the Gloucester v Leicester premiership match. These matches were a world apart from the previous night's Pro 12 offering, especially in terms of intensity.

But why should that be so? Wales and Ireland are strong internationally, competing well with England and France. Scotland and Italy are punching above their weight given their limited player resources. Irish provinces are amongst the most successful sides in the ERC.

I can't accept that the lack of intensity relates to the quality of players available, even given the Irish presumption in favour of resting international players. As regional or provincial teams, the squads should be more consistent in terms of strength in depth than all but one or two of the strongest Anglo-French clubs.

There must be a Flat Earth Society type of refusal on the part of the Unions involved to acknowledge the fundamental problem right at the heart of this league. It's as if the league is addicted to mediocrity. We all know that the fist step to tackling an addiction is to recognise that you have a problem.

To be fair, it seems that the regions are trying to push the league. However, no amount of promotion and marketing can save you if the product is not right.

And the product is not right.

I was one of only a couple of thousand people in Murrayfield Friday night. Murrayfield. The same Murrayfield that holds almost 70,000 people when full, yet six nations international tickets are so hard to come by. Where fans travel in their thousands from others of the Six Nations to follow their international team every spring.

There was just no atmosphere. Very little noise. Very little competitive chanting or singing. Late in the second half the Edinburgh faithful were incensed by the refereeing decision that gave Rhys Priestland the chance of a three pointer to win the game and net five league points as opposed to two. It was the first time it felt anything like watching top class rugby. It's significant that it was displeasure at the referee that caused this blip. That is the sort of negative thing that does not inspire potential attendees.

The basic truth is that it seems Edinburgh could keep doing what they are doing for a thousand years they will never fill Murrayfield for a Pro 12 game.

Why? The product does not elicit enough of an emotional response; and its not limited to Edinburgh.

I suspected at the time that hearing Gareth Charles getting all excited and the massaging of what little atmosphere there was by the positioning of the effects microphone would have made this a match that was best watched on TV. If fans prefer the TV to a ticket, that is an insurmountable hill to climb for the league.

It is a cyclical problem. No fans turn up, the play is not inspired, fans are not motivated to attend and so on. This also means that very few numbers of away fans are prepared to make the long journeys involved in every non derby fixture. Only Irish provinces are bucking the trend, but even then that's a position that can't be sustainable.

Then there's the lack of tradition, or let's face it, the grudge element of the old Anglo-Welsh games to tempt away fans to travel.

Often the officiating results in a default position of most teams trying to stop the other side playing rather than trying to play some football themselves as the breakdown becomes a lottery. None of this helps.

Ironically however, the big two may through the ERC negotiations give the Pro 12 a much needed shot in the arm. I fully believe that the current collection of mini leagues within a league determining the ERC qualification of the four unions involved undermines the league. There is not enough of a risk factor in losing games with ERC qualification largely unaffected by results. The play offs have added some much needed interest in the top 6 at the end of the season, an ERC qualification battle would do the same for the bottom six. Anything which makes every game relevant to the future of the team, the coaches and players would boost intensity and the interest of away fans. This would draw more home fans as it creates a buzz.

Pro 12 Unions, your league is broken and yes, you do need to fix it.

You are spot on, I have been saying the same thing myself. The Rabo 12 has just become an excuse of a sideshow for the Heineken Cup. The problems run deeper because Rugby is struggling now in Scotland and in the Welsh regions which feeds the problem with the Rabo. These problems will get worse until they are first recognised and accepted (many dont want to) and then addressed.

I was actually pleasantly surprised with the 3700 crowd at the Edinburgh game! With Edinburgh being so poor recently, it being a freezing cold night and the fact that it was the last Friday before pay day I thought there'd be less than 2000.

And at the game it seemed like there was a decent number in the east stand and a lot of people standing.

You watch it back on TV however and you really learn how barren it looks!

The atmosphere is very localised at Edinburgh games sometimes - first half I was in the S-W corner in the dead ball area and there was hardly any noise or banter. 2nd half moved up to the N-W corner at the 22 line and it was a lot better - there were a lot more people there, there was lots of shouting and cheering and some good banter too. That is obviously not picked up if the rest of the stadium is quiet though!

I agree though it wasn't fantastic intensity, and a lot of the Pro 12 games are the same. The teams can obviously lift it for the HK (although not this year...!) so seems strange that there is often a drop off for the league.


As for what to do with Edinburgh's ground - I hope that debate doesn't get opened again cause we're been there before too many times. Unless someone pays for a stadium on the back pitches or for the mass re-development of Meadowbank (which I still wouldn't be overly enthused about) We're stuck at Murrayfield!

Thanks, Glas. Those are interesting comments. The question is why the matches are so poor since there some great players in the league. What is it about the structure that reduces the intensity?

Currently we have a strong national team, but weak, uncompetitive clubs. I'm not sure that is sustainable in the long term.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I was actually pleasantly surprised with the 3700 crowd at the Edinburgh game! With Edinburgh being so poor recently, it being a freezing cold night and the fact that it was the last Friday before pay day I thought there'd be less than 2000.

And at the game it seemed like there was a decent number in the east stand and a lot of people standing.

You watch it back on TV however and you really learn how barren it looks!

The atmosphere is very localised at Edinburgh games sometimes - first half I was in the S-W corner in the dead ball area and there was hardly any noise or banter. 2nd half moved up to the N-W corner at the 22 line and it was a lot better - there were a lot more people there, there was lots of shouting and cheering and some good banter too. That is obviously not picked up if the rest of the stadium is quiet though!

I agree though it wasn't fantastic intensity, and a lot of the Pro 12 games are the same. The teams can obviously lift it for the HK (although not this year...!) so seems strange that there is often a drop off for the league.


As for what to do with Edinburgh's ground - I hope that debate doesn't get opened again cause we're been there before too many times. Unless someone pays for a stadium on the back pitches or for the mass re-development of Meadowbank (which I still wouldn't be overly enthused about) We're stuck at Murrayfield!

Does everyone in Scotland get paid on the same day???

Companies traditionally pay at the end of the month if you get paid monthly- same UK over as far as I know!

I don't know why attendance is so bad in Scotland.
Just look at this
Edinburgh Capitals (Ice hockey team) attendance around the 1100 mark.
Scottish Claymores (American football team, in European league, games between Glasgow and Edinburgh[not in existance anymore]) Attendances were around the 10,000 mark to begin, but slumped as low as 6,800 for the final home game of the first season, average over their 10-season history of 11,306
For World Bowl '96 Murrayfield Stadium Attendance 38,982

Now lets be fair if a Scottish American football team in NFL Europe, counts a crowd of 6,800 as a slump. There is no way that a Scottish Rugby team should count a league game attendance of 6,800 as a good crowd.
Also there average over their 10-season history of 11,306, Edinburgh and Glasgow would love that to be their average over the lat 10 years.

Ok I will concede that the Claymores would have had support from all over Scotland and it would nearly count as international games as there is no internation team etc etc. Given that though there is no way American Football is more popular than rugby, and also they were in a crappy league.
The Pro 12 may have its detractors, but it is no way as far behind the top games and leagues than NFL Europe is to the NFL.

Pro 12 has some of the top teams in Europe and the world in it.

The Claymores must have had some marketing to draw in those crows and its something th eSRU will have to try and copy.

Glasgow moving was a good move, smaller stadium that they can grow into and create a good matchday experience. MurrayField will never have this for a league game, what happened to tempory stands on a Murrayfield training pitch?

Anyway I don't know why they are not better attended, but if an American football team in a poor league could attract bigger crowds, than 2 rugby teams in one of the best leagues in Europe, then something is wrong.

No amount of format change will make a difference if the Welsh and Scottish Regions don't get their arses in gear and sort out their domestic infrastructures.

Changing the league won't stop top class players, like Faletau, Warburton, Ross Ford etc. sauntering around falling off tackles like they can't be bothered.

The players needed to start fronting up and the fans need to start supporting them. If that happens we'll have a more competitive and intense league and better product.

I don't think you can say there is a league apathy which is the problem, teams turning up and not putting in the effort, because if this was true all it would take is for one team coach to get his players set up for a game, they go in at full intensity, and they will either win, or force the other team to up its intensty.

IF you team plays at full intensity you will win games and move up the league if the other teams are not playing at thier potential.

Nothing will make other teams take games seriously, except if your team does and you either rise up the table or make other teams perform to get a win.

If there is a lack of intensity at Edinburgh games that it because of Edinburgh, not the League.

The Rabo just isnt prioritised and until it is it will have the same problems. The Heineken Cup is the Holy Grail and the Rabo teams arent under the same pressure to qualify for it. Not only that, but they can tailor their squads to suit the Heineken Cup safe in the knowledge that they can afford to lose in the Rabo 12.

At the moment the system works for the Irish provinces so they arent complaining. Scotland has serious problems with the game overall which go far beyond the Rabo and the Welsh regions are struggling to keep their top players and really connect with the fans.

As long as qualification to the Heineken Cup remains as straightforward for the Rabo sides then its inneviteable the league will struggle in terms of its intensity, product and overall interest in it.

Does the league maybe need some gimmicky things to get the interest up?

How about a super Saturday like in rugby league, changing place each year? 6 games in one weekend at Murrayfield, for example?

Or, maybe mess around with the fixtures, e.g. The league starts off with home nation derbies only i.e. 3 welsh derby weekends on the trot, and then the rest of he season starts. However, wouldn't work so well with only two Scottish and Italian teams.

Probable naff ideas, but what the hell. I'm in an aide as kinda mood.

Does it even need gimmicks? Some people hate that sort of thing. However, it would be great to have a league that I really look forward to watching rather than one where I just expect a training match type of game. Some games just seem like a formality, or fixture fulfilment, rather than an exciting coming together of two European teams.

Gordy wrote:
At the moment the system works for the Irish provinces so they arent complaining. Scotland has serious problems with the game overall which go far beyond the Rabo and the Welsh regions are struggling to keep their top players and really connect with the fans.

Yes but is the league the cause of the Welsh and Scottish problems or are the issues with the league a symptom of them?

I would say its the latter.

Changing the league format won't make a jot of difference to Welsh players leaving or the issues in Scottish rugby, if anything it would exasperate them as there is a fair chance that Scotland would lose a team in Heino, maybe two, with Wales possibly losing a team as well if it was based on league position right now.

I don't think the league needs anything but disbanding IMO griff.

The constant travelling, playing in empty stadiums etc week in week out must be a killer for the players, no wonder the quality is poor..

The HC is a treat for the fans and players alike, the chance to play in the famous best of tournament in europe, but the Rabo is basically a lesser euro league. There is nothing about it that inspires.

Sadly Ive got to a point where the Super style system has been forced down the publics neck in south wales and Ive all but given up on regionalism and the rabo. And this has nothing to do with the Blues playing poorly, but the infrastructure they are playing poorly in.

A night to the rugby has become a poor experience, no atmosphere, empty stadiums, no chance of an away support to banter with, no chance to be the away support to banter with, very little money to follow your 'region' and national team etc etc...

Just change HEC qualification to top 6 for the 3 leagues, i was against it at first but now i'm all for it, like the playoffs, it adds incentive, just imagine the 6th meeting the 7th in the last round?

It would make the amlin stronger too which is a good thing.

Vince

The issue with that is why should 4 nations who hold a larger share combined than the other 2 nations added together get the same amount os HC spots??

Ireland, Wales,Scot, Italy deserve to be represented as much as Eng and fra are!!

Bluesman do you think Wales could sustain its own professional league and retain their top players?

I don't think there is an alternative to the Rabo for any of the countries involved.

It has to be made to work.

Let's try a different solution.

No wonder English contributors to this site forever talk in solutions which would involve Pro12 changing, Pro12 becoming more competitive, Pro12 losing HEC places, Pro12 having too many advantages.

So I'll try this. It isn't a Pro12 problem. The problem, if it exists, is Nation based. So rather than: "Come on Pro12 - sort it out" - I'd adapt that to say "Come on Wales, Scotland and Italy...sort yourselves out."

Irish rugby can do no more - either in Pro12 or in HEC. Irish sides have won the Celtic Competition on 6 occasions and were runners up 7 times. They've topped the league table 8 times in 11 seasons. You can only do what you need to do...and that's a good enough recrod for Pro12. And rather than sacrificing HEC opportunities to their Pro12 aspirations, we all know how well they've performed on the European stage at the very same time as they are sustaining top Pro12 positions - 5 wins in the last 7 years.

Ulster looks menacing this year. Munster as ever can be way below what their classic best was and still be fighting hard in both competitions - Leinster are fighting back in League after a very lethargic start.
But really, what else can Irish sides bring to the Pro12 party? You can't criticise them - they've done more than their fair share for game intensity over the years and for crowd participation too. But we're not going to sacrifice everything (HEC competitiveness) just to drag the reluctant, foot-dragging rest along or 'help' our partners find more reasons to be competitive.

Scotland have a hefty enough population by Irish standards...come on Scotland! - no money or population excuses. Wales are historically the most rugby passionate of the contributing nations - come on Wales, stop finding excuses for lack of punch! Italy have a population of 60 million - two so-so clubs? Come on Italy you should be financing the bulk of the competition with your population and advertising potential.

Don't blame Pro12 the competition. Blame the many contributors for not appoaching our peculiar 'international' league with nearly the same enthusiasm as Ireland has always approached it.

sorry rodders...just after seeing your opinion. Needless to say, I share it.

Good man fly...great minds sir ....agree with that post 100%

Population in France and England is greater... and not by a small margin! I think it would be fair enough with 6 from each league, this would avoid any rematch between teams of the same league if you get 6 pools of 3 teams.

That said, it could be an issue if no Scottish or Welsh sides qualifies.

Edit: more respect need to be given to the amlin, it needs to grow as a competition, not seen as a loser cup.

Glas, think you've summed up the same problem we have in Ireland. Except we have it in reverse; people realise that there is very little atmosphere at international games compared to Pro12 and Heineken Cup games. In Scotland or Wales, the atmosphere is utterly dead at regional matches. And thats part of the product they are selling; for me, the most important part in many ways. But it's something they have little control over; there's no artificial solution, good marketing is just marketing. You're asking fans to form an emotional bond with sides.

I know that the claim can be made by making games feel important by making HC qualification dependent on league placings. But right now I think that an unfavorable ERC ruling would make things worse for the Scottish, Italians and Welsh, not better. It's those big games these teams need to market themselves to a largely indifferent public and it's these big games the top players want to play in. I think that if teams began losing their HC places the league would take a hit in terms of attendances and players moving overseas and your teams might not recover.

The biggest issue with Edinburgh is where they play. They need a ground like Scotstoun. And the Scottish and Welsh regions need to negotiate some kind of central contract deal to stop the player drain. If these teams aren't playing in big games and don't have big players the situation isn't going to get better, at all. It's going to get worse.

I do think that the transition into professionalism has been handled poorly but as your metaphorical balls are squeezed by the cold hand of the Anglo-French power base it may be too late to remedy that...

I don't think the problems with Wales and Scotland can be said to be the Leagues fault.
I agree with rodders, "Yes but is the league the cause of the Welsh and Scottish problems or are the issues with the league a symptom of them?"

People used to say the Provinces don't take the league seriously and rest players to often, and send out weakened teams.

If this was the case why are the Provinces always at or near the top, (think it was 2003 last time Leinster finished outside top 4, Munster prob similar). If they were putting out weakened teams, then why aren't they losing games and struggling in the league each year?

Anyone will always put out a team they think will win, with an eye on the next games as well, if you want to see a stronger Irish team travel, you have to beat them, that way the next year they will send a stronger team.

I think its the problems in Wales and Scotland that make the League look poor, not a poor league not inspiring those teams.

To be honest attendances go up and down on a few key points

1) how well the team is playing
2) when the game is being played
3) weather condisions
4) time of year/month
5) importance of the match

and lets look at the four of them for this match

1) Edinburgh had just been so badly humped int he HEC that they are looking for a new word to describe how bad a humping it was! Also they are far far away from the side that reached the HEC semi-final last season. On top of that the Scarelts, whilst sitting in second, had not really put in any good performances since they lost to the Ospreys at the end of September.

2) Seeing as the game was on a friday night, it would have been rather awkward for away supporters to get there (and to be fair there were a fair few there).

3) It was fricking cold!!!!

4) It was the last game of the month, and as someone else said if your the sort who get paid monthly that means it is the worst weekend of the month as it is the one before your wages go in (Casartelli, i am making a general guess on the monthly wages-in days of people I know).

5) It was an improtant game, but not because titles could be won etc, but it could have been a season ender.

Looking at all five, I would say that a croud of 3k was better than I would have expected, and lets remember nobody slags connacht off and that would be a good attendance for them!

I dont think marketing or glitzing up the Rabo will do anything because the fundemental problem is that the actual players and teams in it themselves treat with far less priority or interest and this will ineviteably be reflected with the fans.

rodders

A welsh prem return probably isn't an option in reality because of financial issues (although it would be the way I'd go to improve the game long term)

Fly

I wouldn't call the welsh population passionate about the sport these days, I'd say there are thousands who enjoy the day out in the city centre on international days but beyond that for the last few years the game at every other level has regressed to a minority sport.
Football is fast becoming the sport of Wales and IMHO the FAW are doing a great job of going from the ground up, the national team just need the hint of success to spark the masses, and I can see the MS becoming a big football stadium soon.

Gordy

I think your right and wrong, anything done to the Rabo will be a waste as the regions in wales have all but failed. Noone really cares aboout them, and interest has become far more localised to clubs at lower levels.

Gordy wrote:I dont think marketing or glitzing up the Rabo will do anything because the fundemental problem is that the actual players and teams in it themselves treat with far less priority or interest and this will ineviteably be reflected with the fans.

The major problem is that people keep slagging it off. The league has some very high quality matches in it, and it has some very poor matches in it. But then nearly every league in every sport is like that. The thing is that the Rabo was forced upon the Welsh, and a number of people took it as their duty to moan about it until it is scrapped and we go back to club sides. And as such their moaning has been loud and consistant, and other people have jumped on the bandwagon without really considering the strength/competitiveness/quality of the League.

ScarletSpiderman
I wouldn't say 3000 would be a good attendance for Connacht anymore,

Home games this season
Connacht V Blues 3,869
Connacht V Scarlets 4,074
Connacht V Leinster 5,813
Connacht V Harlequins: 8,500.

Edinburgh V Munster 4,050
Edinburgh V Zebre 3,541
Edinburgh V Terviso 4,079
Edinburgh V Saracens 6,543
Edinburgh V Scarlets 3,754

Connacht may have better attendance, and lets be fair Edinburgh should not be trying to keep up with a team like Connachts attendance, they should be aiming to be around the Ulster/Scarlets attendance figures.

SS

I don't think the league is the problem in Wales, it's the whole package that was forced on everyone!! From fake regions to rivals forced to join together. Then theres the idea of bredding a new fanbase and writing off the current one.

You can't blame a lot of people for being bitter, from the fiasco that started to the restructuring that ensued.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:To be honest attendances go up and down on a few key points

1) how well the team is playing
2) when the game is being played
3) weather condisions
4) time of year/month
5) importance of the match

and lets look at the four of them for this match

1) Edinburgh had just been so badly humped int he HEC that they are looking for a new word to describe how bad a humping it was! Also they are far far away from the side that reached the HEC semi-final last season. On top of that the Scarelts, whilst sitting in second, had not really put in any good performances since they lost to the Ospreys at the end of September.

2) Seeing as the game was on a friday night, it would have been rather awkward for away supporters to get there (and to be fair there were a fair few there).

3) It was fricking cold!!!!

4) It was the last game of the month, and as someone else said if your the sort who get paid monthly that means it is the worst weekend of the month as it is the one before your wages go in (Casartelli, i am making a general guess on the monthly wages-in days of people I know).

5) It was an improtant game, but not because titles could be won etc, but it could have been a season ender.

Looking at all five, I would say that a croud of 3k was better than I would have expected, and lets remember nobody slags connacht off and that would be a good attendance for them!

Connacht have over 3000 season ticket holders. They are getting around 4000 supporters each game in the rabo and that rises to near 9000 for HC games. So 3000 is not a ' good' attendace for them.

I dont have any problem with the Rabo in theory, but when the teams and players that actually play in it dont treat it with priority how can people expect the fans to? The failure of the Welsh provinces and the game in general in Scotland may be unavoidable but creating a more competitive and intense Rabo wont do any harm.

I was really disappointed in the Pro12 games I watched over the weekend. In fact I only watched part of the Leinster v Blues game as it was so one sided.

I watched 3 fantastic Jeff games

Bath v Exeter
Glaws v Tigers
Long Irish v Quins

that were passionately fought to a high standard & could have gone either way.

I take no pleasure in criticising the quality of the Pro12 games this weekend because I will watch as many games as I can but none were really worth watching. I know the Edinburgh v Scarlets game was close & it was good in parts but Edinburgh are not a good side at the moment & Scarlets could not put them away. It was very disjointed & full of mistakes.
Other games were just to one sided & defence appeared optional at times.

I know these games aren't necessarily typical of the standard of games in the Pro12 week in week out. But the Provinces appear to be playing at a consistent level but nearly all the other sides have gone backwards in terms of quality.

Gordy

It could put Scot, Ita, or Wales out of business!!

It was a particularly bad weekend for pro 12 with only Embra-Scarlets being competitive/decent, Glasgow/Treviso worth watching for the attrition only, you can blame the Italians as much as you want but they always play with heart and passion at least.

Treviso have done really well this year and they sold out their stadium when we played them. They are improving each year and their support is growing.

SecretFly wrote:Let's try a different solution.

No wonder English contributors to this site forever talk in solutions which would involve Pro12 changing, Pro12 becoming more competitive, Pro12 losing HEC places, Pro12 having too many advantages.

So I'll try this. It isn't a Pro12 problem. The problem, if it exists, is Nation based. So rather than: "Come on Pro12 - sort it out" - I'd adapt that to say "Come on Wales, Scotland and Italy...sort yourselves out."

Irish rugby can do no more - either in Pro12 or in HEC. Irish sides have won the Celtic Competition on 6 occasions and were runners up 7 times. They've topped the league table 8 times in 11 seasons. You can only do what you need to do...and that's a good enough recrod for Pro12. And rather than sacrificing HEC opportunities to their Pro12 aspirations, we all know how well they've performed on the European stage at the very same time as they are sustaining top Pro12 positions - 5 wins in the last 7 years.

Ulster looks menacing this year. Munster as ever can be way below what their classic best was and still be fighting hard in both competitions - Leinster are fighting back in League after a very lethargic start.
But really, what else can Irish sides bring to the Pro12 party? You can't criticise them - they've done more than their fair share for game intensity over the years and for crowd participation too. But we're not going to sacrifice everything (HEC competitiveness) just to drag the reluctant, foot-dragging rest along or 'help' our partners find more reasons to be competitive.

Scotland have a hefty enough population by Irish standards...come on Scotland! - no money or population excuses. Wales are historically the most rugby passionate of the contributing nations - come on Wales, stop finding excuses for lack of punch! Italy have a population of 60 million - two so-so clubs? Come on Italy you should be financing the bulk of the competition with your population and advertising potential.

Don't blame Pro12 the competition. Blame the many contributors for not appoaching our peculiar 'international' league with nearly the same enthusiasm as Ireland has always approached it.

Fly, the Pro12 is only working for 1 quarter of it's members. Reading your post it sounds as though you're saying that Ireland are OK so to hell with the rest of you. And I can understand a certain selfishness, course I can. However, you can't be happy coming up against crap opposition from the other pro12 nations each week? To just say 'come on Wales' will not suddenly make the regions good. Change is needed. If we bury our heads in the sand there will not be a league for the Irish Provinces to play in.

Where has anyone asked for Irish 'help'. Far from it. What we're saying is that, although the current format may work for you, it doesn't seem to work for everyone. Maybe that will mean the disbandment of the league. But just as you do not think it should be Ireland's job to help the other nations, neither will it be The Welsh or the Scottish team's job to carry on the pretence just so Ireland can be happy. If we're not getting what we want from the league we should look to alternatives, even if that means looking elsewhere.

Gordy wrote:I dont have any problem with the Rabo in theory, but when the teams and players that actually play in it dont treat it with priority how can people expect the fans to? The failure of the Welsh provinces and the game in general in Scotland may be unavoidable but creating a more competitive and intense Rabo wont do any harm.

In actual fact it has the potential to do just that - to do harm. If it is reformed in a way to articifially help nations that themselves claim they have far more serious issues holding back rugby than the format of the Pro12 league.

If we reorganise Pro12 under duress from Top14 and AP (incidently two leagues that DO NOT have the best interests of Pro12 at heart!) or if we re-organise it to try to seemingly level the playing field amongst participating sides themselves, and if that re-organising sucks Irish sides back into a more common mediocre standard to make the Pro12 more competitive, or kill off Irish competitiveness in HEC, then in my book, and yes, I'm biased, that would do great harm. I wouldn't be a happy bunny. I'd be quite an angry one.

If the solution doesn't drag up more Pro12 sides to Irish Provincial standards then that solution isn't worthy of any consideration. If the solution is to say most of us can't rise up (money problems/fans issues/player drain etc) and therefore Irish sides must be forced to lower their standards to keep us all competitive, then that's a self-defeating tragedy for our league and a big win for Top14/AP.

to all who i offended with the Connacht thing

it seems they have got their stuff in order, but it was not that long ago it would have been a good attendance ( http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=357&statType=home_Att )

Griff

Is the league the problem in wales though? or the regional setup compounded by the league?

Secret Fly you seem to be stating that top14/AP actively want the pro12 to fail. That is a pretty serious statement to make and I would be amazed if there is any proof.

Entry to HC is one thing but everyone wants strong leagues

ScarletSpiderman wrote: to all who i offended with the Connacht thing

it seems they have got their stuff in order, but it was not that long ago it would have been a good attendance ( http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=357&statType=home_Att )

Yikes! Connacht really are growing fast. Faster then i realised.

Griff wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Let's try a different solution.

No wonder English contributors to this site forever talk in solutions which would involve Pro12 changing, Pro12 becoming more competitive, Pro12 losing HEC places, Pro12 having too many advantages.

So I'll try this. It isn't a Pro12 problem. The problem, if it exists, is Nation based. So rather than: "Come on Pro12 - sort it out" - I'd adapt that to say "Come on Wales, Scotland and Italy...sort yourselves out."

Irish rugby can do no more - either in Pro12 or in HEC. Irish sides have won the Celtic Competition on 6 occasions and were runners up 7 times. They've topped the league table 8 times in 11 seasons. You can only do what you need to do...and that's a good enough recrod for Pro12. And rather than sacrificing HEC opportunities to their Pro12 aspirations, we all know how well they've performed on the European stage at the very same time as they are sustaining top Pro12 positions - 5 wins in the last 7 years.

Ulster looks menacing this year. Munster as ever can be way below what their classic best was and still be fighting hard in both competitions - Leinster are fighting back in League after a very lethargic start.
But really, what else can Irish sides bring to the Pro12 party? You can't criticise them - they've done more than their fair share for game intensity over the years and for crowd participation too. But we're not going to sacrifice everything (HEC competitiveness) just to drag the reluctant, foot-dragging rest along or 'help' our partners find more reasons to be competitive.

Scotland have a hefty enough population by Irish standards...come on Scotland! - no money or population excuses. Wales are historically the most rugby passionate of the contributing nations - come on Wales, stop finding excuses for lack of punch! Italy have a population of 60 million - two so-so clubs? Come on Italy you should be financing the bulk of the competition with your population and advertising potential.

Don't blame Pro12 the competition. Blame the many contributors for not appoaching our peculiar 'international' league with nearly the same enthusiasm as Ireland has always approached it.

Fly, the Pro12 is only working for 1 quarter of it's members. Reading your post it sounds as though you're saying that Ireland are OK so to hell with the rest of you. And I can understand a certain selfishness, course I can. However, you can't be happy coming up against crap opposition from the other pro12 nations each week? To just say 'come on Wales' will not suddenly make the regions good. Change is needed. If we bury our heads in the sand there will not be a league for the Irish Provinces to play in.

Where has anyone asked for Irish 'help'. Far from it. What we're saying is that, although the current format may work for you, it doesn't seem to work for everyone. Maybe that will mean the disbandment of the league. But just as you do not think it should be Ireland's job to help the other nations, neither will it be The Welsh or the Scottish team's job to carry on the pretence just so Ireland can be happy. If we're not getting what we want from the league we should look to alternatives, even if that means looking elsewhere.

You misread my emphasis. You see my post as a sneer when it is actually a call to arms for the people who are the vocal ones in wanting Pro12 changes and who yet always claim the changes won't really affect the internal issues each nation has. That is to say, it seems to be the argument that Pro12 really isn't the main concern but let's change it anyway just to see what happens. Another solution based on nothing more than a hunch. And wouldn't the other leagues love a hunch to kill off even the opposition they currently have in Pro12.

Irish sides improved by playing you guys plus having a clear and determined plan to keep players in the country so that Provincial development would go hand in hand with International development. I'm saying that's doable for the other nations - but no, that's just an Irish person being smug. It's much better to moan and growl and pretend there is no money and no support...and continually blame the Irish for being smug if we suggest the problems you all have are internal and not related to league structure. We're requesting you take control of the internal issues, solve them and come get us and make us eat our words and what will that do? It'll create a firebrand league that nobody will be complaining about - well, the Top14 and Ap won't be happy but who cares about them.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote: to all who i offended with the Connacht thing

it seems they have got their stuff in order, but it was not that long ago it would have been a good attendance ( http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=357&statType=home_Att )

Yikes! Connacht really are growing fast. Faster then i realised.

Yeah that HEC spot they are getting seems to really make a difference.

I think what sercetfly means is, the IRFU, have invested and promoted the Provinces to a much higher level than the SRU and WRU have there teams.

When the league was formed I think all teams had about the same intrest level. The SRU and IRFU were very comparable.

From an Irish prespective what we would like is for the WRU and SRU to invest and promote their teams to the same level the IRFU do.

There is no way Edinburgh population about 500,000 should be attraching crowds compareable to Connacht, (Galway pop 75,000).

If the IRFU are able to promote Rugby in Connacht (rugby minority game GAA stronghold, low population density and even a low population capital), then the SRU shouldn't be just doing the same with one of thier only 2 teams, in a population dense area, and lets not mention success bringing in fans its hardly like Connacht is a more successful team than Edinburgh.

In Ireland the IRFU have taken the Provinces seriously an dhence Irish fans take the league seriously, its in Wales and Scotland it isn't. If the WRU and SRU were to get behind their teams to the same extent the IRFU do the Provinces, then it would imporve Rugby in these countires and fans would take the league more seriously.

lostinwales wrote:Secret Fly you seem to be stating that top14/AP actively want the pro12 to fail. That is a pretty serious statement to make and I would be amazed if there is any proof.

Entry to HC is one thing but everyone wants strong leagues

You believe your understanding and I'll trust mine. A weak Pro12 league would suit French and English leagues just fine. Only reason they're looking for change now is not because they see Pro12 as the weaklink that needs saving (God love 'em) but a threat - a threat that's growing all the while if some of you would stop seeing daggers where there is only a desire to tell you all to stop making excuses, sort out your internal issues, and join us in a league that would scare the French and English to death.

There are so many factors why its not working for us Scots and the Welsh but doing exactly what the Irish want.

Its our problem (Welsh and Scots) but is it really going to get any of the Celtic Nations up into the top 4 teams in the world consistantly - never mind number 1.

Here are a few of my thoughts on why its not connecting with fans...

- Scotlands proffesional football tradition means its hard to convince new fans to go to a pan-europe league that means nothing. H-Cup they can relate to as its a european competition.
- Wales has its traditional rugby club league and now has to compete with two successful football clubs.
- Scotland and Wales have top level proffesional football played in direct opposition to rugby during the season.

- Irish don't have a proffesional sport on thier door step to distract the population.
- Gaelic football is simlilar to rugby so player/supporters can flit between the two

- the Italians have brought the entertainment level down with their style of play

- Is a 28 (plus the extra for HEC knockout rounds the Irish have) game season too long? Super Rugby is 16 games.

- We're not guaranteed to see the best player due to arranged rest periods

- Intensity is reduced because of the two comments above

Closer to home

- football is in decline or maybe just at a low point here in Scotland. Clubs aren't producing a great product and the national team are lucky to have a good qualifying campaign never mind qualify for a tournament.

- should Edinburgh be called Edinburgh? Should it be a more generic name and the team play games in Edinburgh and some games in the Borders ala Munster? Become more of a regional Union of clubs.

- Yes we need to move from Murrayfield but to where? SRU know this and are working on find alternate venues.

- its bloody freezing up here in Scotland from Oct through to March. Summer rugby!!

Sorry no solutions just questions and statements....

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote: to all who i offended with the Connacht thing

it seems they have got their stuff in order, but it was not that long ago it would have been a good attendance ( http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=357&statType=home_Att )

Yikes! Connacht really are growing fast. Faster then i realised.

Yeah that HEC spot they are getting seems to really make a difference.

The HC spot helped a lot but thats not the only reason. They are getting a lot more funding now from the IRFU and are now developing their own players and the players are now interacting with their communities. They have also lost their 'development side' tag, so they are now getting way more support.

Don't take this the wrong way Rodders, but I hope I never need you to sell anything for me.

It would be like saying to potential customers "look this cheap badly made toy is made in Wales, where is your patriotic spirit? You should be vollunteering altruistically to give me money for this sub standard product as I deserve to stay in business"

It would never work for toys, so why do you think I would work for rugby? There will never be enough altruistic fans to keep the Pro12 alive, even if you count the Irish fans.

Can Edinburagh not play in either hibernians or hearts stadium? How far away are they from murrayfield?

Some good, if somewhat unpalatable, points made here.

Should the Irish provinces look to find/set up an alternative league?