HAPPY HALLOWEEN FROM THE BOYS

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QziL1YguOYM

Haddie, I do understand where you are coming from even if I don't share all the same views.

I just think that moderating failed this forum badly. I am not in favour of heavy handed moderating, and I like that everyone has different views and although I am not here all the time, it does seem that there is a lot of tolerance for different views from the vast majority of members - in other words we all like a good debate

If you or I began to post as certain ex members (and I am not including T or NITB because I didn't see posts that others allude to, so in all fairness I can only have an opinion on what I see not what I'm told was there) we would be reprimanded pretty swiftly with a pm or a post removed and yet that ex poster's long libelous posts stood for days - I didn't post over that time in silent protest over the moderating.

I just believe you will get strong opinions - I mean we all have those, don't we? Otherwise we wouldn't really waste time on a forum. But I do believe you can manage the strong opinions if moderating is vigilant enough and so the need to ban anyone shouldn't arise.

I suspect we are going to have to disagree on the last point

No No not at all IP I do agree.. I believe that had someone come down with a heavy hand sooner rather than later a lot could have been avoided.
I, as is my will or wont, responded to the jibes and nasty insinuations that were being made (loyalty being my middle name) and that was rewarded by equally nasty PM´s from one of the then Moderators who is no longer with us.
But nothing was said to the offenders. As you so rightly say their remarks were for the most part libellous and were allowed to stay for days...on the other hand my responses were removed instantly.
In short IP the forum was pretty well run by Tenez & Co and once it was realised that there was no way of bringing it under control. because Moderators were being bombarded with PM´s from everywhere and there was becoming a mass exodus .. It was the chop so to speak

I don't really believe in 'heavy hand' ed moderation Haddie - I believe in asking people to reconsider their posts and giving them a chance to continue to post contentious points of view in an acceptable way. In the case of libelous posts, they have to be removed or edited so that while they still may be provocative, the forum couldn't actually be sued for allowing them to stand.

I would re check your mass exodus - several posters notably including LF, and growing by the day are heading over to join Tenez so not everyone was well served by, or agreed with, the decision to ban. It will be interesting to see which is the most successful tennis section in 6 months from now.

Much as it has been good chatting, I do suspect that you and I will continue to disagree on the fundamental issue of whether to ban or not to ban

People like good debate on forums...which is why we all join right?

What shouldnt happen is points being forced down people's throats and personal stances being taken. That was where 606v2 was getting towards and something had to change. The problem was that the moderation leading to that point was, in my opinion, too weak. So the whole problem became an explosive mix..and it duly went up in flames!

What is a shame is that knowledgeable, or even un-knowledgeable, posters cant get along. But that is what happened. Positions have become entrenched and different forums set up. Its a shame really when so many people love tennis, yes love tennis!!! As I said, the handling of the bans was heavy-handed and poorly communicated, with little prior public run-up. Personally I'd far rather see an inclusive and collective forum where everyone, within licence to disagree, gets along from a debate perspective - not a yes-man culture, but not aggressive.

Rather than the 2 sites grate along against each other..being in a constant state of attrition which isnt good for anyone I'd be more in favour of amalgamation where open debate and differing views are brought under one roof. Maybe its time to wipe the slate clean...let bygones be bygones and propose re-integration. Or perhaps I'm just being naive...

So come on then, who is in favour of some form or way of re-integration? (with acknowledgement from both sides that things could have been handled better all round)
Sometimes the only way forward is to look backwards before moving forward again.

Well hey ho IP I dont mind what you post as long as its fair, factual and open for discussion.. Your opinion will always be respected but not necessarily agreed with. That is the basis of a healthy debate

Unlike my father whose motto was "you can have what opinion you like as long as it agrees with mine" And it never did you understand

who decides what is 'fair' and what is 'open for discussion'? Factual is also problematic because a poster might want to discuss opinion in the press, gossip on the tour or just simply state what they perceive about a player and if they like it or don't like it - but it's not necessarily hard fact.

I think all opinion should be allowed but that moderation should stamp on anything that could be libellous - just as an newspaper editor would (should ) do.

I am not having a go at all Haddie, I am just posing a question to all. I think this forum actually gets the above really well.

lol at your father - he might be related to my mother!

lol at your father - he might be related to my mother!.
time please



Well he did have a bike and got around a bit

time please wrote:
LF - I'm sorry, but I think it is very strange that a moderator on a forum that banned the two aforementioned posters is a regular poster on their forum. Do you go to bait, or do you have, as so many seem to do, a Mary Whitehouse complex and believe that you have a responsibility to 'clean up' or order the internet to a way of thinking you deem appropriate?

Or do you simply enjoy debating with Tenez and NITB? If so, and really that is the only sane reason for you spending so much time away from a forum you are supposed to be helping to make livelier (ie 606v2) is that you enjoy talking to them - then why didn't you really make a good case for them to stay on 606v2 and allow a whole lot of other people to enjoy the same?

Personally, I think LF should either leave a certain forum and continue as an obviously popular moderator here, or continue to post at both places but to resign as mod on 606v2. It is just not tenable in my view for her to do both, and in fact, I have just lost huge respect for decisions made by moderators on 606v2 with the current situation.

I understand your viewpoint. My intention is neither to bait nor cleanup anything. Part of the reason I visited OTF was due to some discussions that spanned both forums. For example the draw rigging discussions. Some of participants of that specific discussion mentioned my name on OTF and JA606.

The banning was not a moderator decision per se. Posters also left on their own volition. If you care to look, I have even wished the posters who left v2 well and hoped that they had found a place to continue their discussions.

I do not spend 'half my time' on OTF. Most of my time gets divided up between v2 and MTL.

I have yet to see any change in the topics of discussion which could have made a difference to OTF and I have duly noted such paucity of thought a couple of times.

I moderate on two forums, MTL and v2. I had stated so on both forums, and neither had any objections to that. The tenability of such a position has been mentioned first by you. I am addressing that and not trying to offend you or any other posters.

For example, Summerblues and I have discussed similar topics on two or more forums. As Lydian says, I am still getting $hit3 for my contributions on OTF.

I usually post (and say so) on articles I write that it has been posted on another forum. Does that address any questions you might have?

If we need to discuss this further, may I suggest we do so via PMs, if that is an acceptable path for this specific sub-topic.

H-n... my apologies for an off-topic post on your thread.

summerblues wrote:

laverfan wrote:Have you read Lord of the Flies? If not, I would highly recommend it. Very fascinating view of human nature.

Hah, so maybe you are not so naively optimistic after all.

The evolution of a tribal society and it's progress is always fascinating, even if it does not reflect my own views. I still like the Star Trek Prime Directive.

H-n... my apologies for an off-topic post on your thread..


No need for apologies LF the whole thread is off topic.. a regular little bag of all sorts.

Apologies for not responding before LF - away from computer although still logged in.

In my opinion, it is untenable for a moderator of 606v2 to spend so much time posting on a forum that is set up by an ex member of 606v2 that you banned.

What you do as a general poster is something entirely different.

I have no problem with Tenez or NITB, but you remaining as a moderator on here looks very hypocritical. If you didn't agree with the decision that the other moderators or the founders on this site took, then perhaps it would have been a sign of solidarity with T and NITB if you had resigned as moderator then.

I don't blame you for visiting their site at all - you must see moderator status here is sending very mixed messages - or is it just me in as parallel universe? I just don't think the two are compatible at all. You should have supported T and NITB on the forum at the time, but I don't actually think that is what you are doing now. I repeat, I am not saying you should choose between forums.

Evolution of Tribal Society....me thinks its part and parcel of the human condition. Look at sport forums, you get a microcosm of human nature right there. Even though we all love tennis just look at the fractious circumstances of this tennis section in the past, the constant "warring" between Nadal and Federer fans for example. You would never believe that we have a common interest would you? Instead you get petty squabbles, intellectual ****ing and oneupmanship.

But we all know this - and we all enjoy the milder end of it...the "banter" so to speak. We all know what tennis forums are like and when there's a good debate going on its great...but when it spills over then its a fine line between "banter" and aggression. This is why tribalism has to be carefully managed and any spill-overs quickly nipped in the bud before splits occur. This is where for me we could have possibly been more proactive here when flarepoints were cropping up on a daily basis. Of course, permanent bans may always be needed...and some people cant but help themselves get to that point by "pushing it" all the time no matter how many times they are told to moderate their behaviour/language/actions, etc. LF, I dont think there is an issue with you being moderator on more than 1 forum but you allude to not being involved in the decision to ban Tenez, et al. Given you wished the "departees" well does this mean you didnt agree with what happened then? Otherwise I would find it a bit odd you spending so much time with people you had a hand in banning...and people who repeatedly treated you with zero respect here, or there. Do you not remember what NITB said to you on here once that had to be immediately removed by Admin? I just think you're treading a weird path between here and the other forum...fine its your choice, its a free world. However, IMO it undermines your role as a moderator here if you were involved with the original bans in any shape or form.

TP...I see you replied at the same time, on similar lines.
Weird...cue twilight zone music.

I guess we should continue a public discussion.

time please wrote:Apologies for not responding before LF - away from computer although still logged in.

time please wrote:In my opinion, it is untenable for a moderator of 606v2 to spend so much time posting on a forum that is set up by an ex member of 606v2 that you banned.

For the highlighted part... I cannot devalue a poster, just because they are an ex.

For the highlighted and underlined part - This is incorrect.

time please wrote:What you do as a general poster is something entirely different.

IMO, I beg to differ on this.

time please wrote:I have no problem with Tenez or NITB, but you remaining as a moderator on here looks very hypocritical. If you didn't agree with the decision that the other moderators or the founders on this site took, then perhaps it would have been a sign of solidarity with T and NITB if you had resigned as moderator then.

I have stated many a time, and again, members left because of their own volition, because there was desire to follow a specific poster.

time please wrote:I don't blame you for visiting their site at all - you must see moderator status here is sending very mixed messages - or is it just me in as parallel universe? I just don't think the two are compatible at all. You should have supported T and NITB on the forum at the time, but I don't actually think that is what you are doing now. I repeat, I am not saying you should choose between forums.

I am not going to start posting my PM exchanges with posters who are no longer on v2. Even Lydian has hinted at other avenues.

Lydian wrote:Rather than the 2 sites grate along against each other..being in a constant state of attrition which isnt good for anyone I'd be more in favour of amalgamation where open debate and differing views are brought under one roof. Maybe its time to wipe the slate clean...let bygones be bygones and propose re-integration. Or perhaps I'm just being naive...

So come on then, who is in favour of some form or way of re-integration? (with acknowledgement from both sides that things could have been handled better all round)
Sometimes the only way forward is to look backwards before moving forward again.

Perhaps this is my personal attempt (albeit floundering now) at a possible re-integration. . If I can evaluate the desire (which is currently non-existent) to see the diaspora get together, it is worthy of an effort, don't you think?

The role of Moderator is simply to try and ensure that the House Rules on this forum are adhered to. It's not a science and sometimes it requires a great deal of thought, judgement and diplomacy. Sometimes even that isn't enough and sometimes we get it a bit wrong.
We often refer contentious decisions back to the Admins - it is their site, they have the final say and since they set the whole thing up and run it, they are fully entitled to do that. They could ban us all if they wanted to, just for the fun of it - it's entirely their prerogative to do that.
I don't see the need to question or re-hash old decisions.
I also think that as long as any Moderator carries out the role as described, any off-forum activities have no bearing. Different forums have different rules and can provide different discussions.

So glad my Halloween thread was such a success

laverfan wrote:If I can evaluate the desire (which is currently non-existent) to see the diaspora get together, it is worthy of an effort, don't you think?

In theory yes but there is no desire for re-integration. I also asked the question to gauge opinion and its clear no-one wants it, which is understandable given the level of rancour there used to be on here. If I'm honest I didnt want it myself either because after years of seeing how some people are you just know something isnt going to work. However, I offered the question nonetheless incase there was a groundswell of feeling on it. There isnt.

LF, you're free to do whatever you want on any site but I do think you're wasting your time trying to engage with them to win battles that are unwinnable. They have no respect for you, for any of the other passing 606v2 members, and for what this site stands for as a whole - ie. moderated discourse within house rules. I think its called flogging a dead horse and I still can't understand why people frequent there from here to be attacked. I'd just leave them to get on with it...but that's your choice. I'm not commenting any further on this, it's time to let bygones be bygones.

lydian wrote:

laverfan wrote:If I can evaluate the desire (which is currently non-existent) to see the diaspora get together, it is worthy of an effort, don't you think?

In theory yes but there is no desire for re-integration. I also asked the question to gauge opinion and its clear no-one wants it, which is understandable given the level of rancour there used to be on here. If I'm honest I didnt want it myself either because after years of seeing how some people are you just know something isnt going to work. However, I offered the question nonetheless incase there was a groundswell of feeling on it. There isnt.

LF, you're free to do whatever you want on any site but I do think you're wasting your time trying to engage with them to win battles that are unwinnable. They have no respect for you, for any of the other passing 606v2 members, and for what this site stands for as a whole - ie. moderated discourse within house rules. I think its called flogging a dead horse and I still can't understand why people frequent there from here to be attacked. I'd just leave them to get on with it...but that's your choice. I'm not commenting any further on this, it's time to let bygones be bygones.

Yes, but it's her business ans her life. You have said that again and again and again and again, now please STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, and Lydian is allowed to express his opinion as he wishes.

@Lydian... It seems that I will reach the same conclusion as you.

@JK... Please do not be upset. It was an honest attempt to see if we can progress. Holiday season every year brings hope.

@IMBL...

@H-n... Glad to see we can honestly discuss issues publicly. Every poster that comes back after a hiatus, is a very welcome sight.

Well albeit this thread was started for a whole different reason I am actually very glad that it has turned out to be somewhere everyone can "get it off their chest" without it having to turn into a vitriolic slanging match-.- so long may it be so and maybe, as a suggestion moderators, we should periodically have such a thread and let the genie out of the bottle so to speak. It does no harm to air some differences instead of letting them boil over into something much bigger.. A mere suggestion you understand

Haddie-nuff wrote:Well albeit this thread was started for a whole different reason I am actually very glad that it has turned out to be somewhere everyone can "get it off their chest" without it having to turn into a vitriolic slanging match-.- so long may it be so and maybe, as a suggestion moderators, we should periodically have such a thread and let the genie out of the bottle so to speak. It does no harm to air some differences instead of letting them boil over into something much bigger.. A mere suggestion you understand

A good mere suggestion, H-n.

I think it is healthy to vent every once in a while to prevent issues from building up.

As for the issues aired here, I really don't see the conflict of interest. This particular forum has rules and it is the moderators role to ensure that these rules are adhered to. If posters choose not to adhere to those rules and prefer to post elsewhere then that is up to them. If anyone (whether they are a moderator or not) chooses to converse with them on other forums then that is entirely up to them and does not impact upon their role in this forum. Live and let live.

Thanks, CarrieG4.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Well albeit this thread was started for a whole different reason I am actually very glad that it has turned out to be somewhere everyone can "get it off their chest" without it having to turn into a vitriolic slanging match-.- so long may it be so and maybe, as a suggestion moderators, we should periodically have such a thread and let the genie out of the bottle so to speak. It does no harm to air some differences instead of letting them boil over into something much bigger.. A mere suggestion you understand

I think it is a brilliant suggestion Haddie.

LF - I take everyone's point and I would never have brought my feelings up if this thread hadn't suddenly gone down the lets bash Tenez and NITB route. I respect your point of view but I think that if you accept the role of moderator you do, tacitly, represent this forum - that's all I am going to say on the subject.

Peace!

Thank you tp ..Perhaps we should run a suggestion box as to what the thread should be called.. any ideas ???

Suggestions :-
"Helpful hints for improving the forum"
"Moderators - you're rubbish"
"Bottom Marx"
"Marx's Bottom"
"You're having a LF"

Haddie-nuff wrote:Thank you tp ..Perhaps we should run a suggestion box as to what the thread should be called.. any ideas ???

Gerrit off yer chest naow (the last to be pronounced a la Ray Winstone) ?

Or what about "Fings that Pee me Orf"
Or ""What gets your GOAT"

You're having a LF

Like that one JM

time please wrote:

LF - I take everyone's point and I would never have brought my feelings up if this thread hadn't suddenly gone down the lets bash Tenez and NITB route. I respect your point of view but I think that if you accept the role of moderator you do, tacitly, represent this forum - that's all I am going to say on the subject.

Peace!

TP ,