Scotland v Tonga: build up, banter and match day thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Tonga
Pittodrie, Aberdeen
Saturday 24 November 2012
KO:3pm

Last matches:

10 November - Italy 28 - 23 Tonga
17 November - Scotland 10 - 21 South Africa

Previous head to heads:

1974
Scotland XV 44-8 Tonga
28 September 1974, Murrayfield

1995
Scotland 41-5 Tonga
30 May 1995, Pretoria (RWC)

2001
Scotland 43-20 Tonga
10 November 2001, Murrayfield

2009
Scotland 'A' 38-7 Tonga
20 November 2009, Netherdale

Injuries:

Gray following concussion protocol

Big Al still tending to his calf strain

No other injuries announced

Latest provisional IRB World Rankings - top 12

1 New Zealand 92.91
2 South Africa 86.05
3 Australia 85.94
4 France 84.99
5 England 81.96
6 Argentina 79.89
7 Ireland 79.04
8 Wales 78.95
9 Samoa 78.79
10 Scotland 77.42
11 Italy 76.61
12 Tonga 74.51

Teams:
SCOTLAND

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Max Evans (Castres)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)

10 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby)
9 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors)
2 Scott Lawson (London Irish)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) (c)
8 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)

Substitutes:

16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
17 Kyle Traynor (Bristol Rugby)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)

19 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby)
20 John Barclay (Glasgow Warriors)
21 Rory Lawson (Newcastle Falcons)
22 Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
23 Nick De Luca (Edinburgh Rugby)



TONGA

Vungakoto Lilo (Tarbes Pyrenees)

Fetu'u Vainikolo (Connacht)

Sukanaivalu Hufanga (Newcastle Falcons)

Sione Piukala (Perpignan)

Will Helu (Fasi Ma'ufanga)

Fangatapu Apikotoa (Amatori)

Taniela Moa (Pau)

Viliami Ma'afu (unattached);

Alisona Taumalolo (Perpignan)

Elvis Taione (Western Force)

Halani Aulika (London Irish)

Joe Tu'ineau (Aix en Provence)

Tukulua Lokotui (Wellington)

Hale T-Pole (Northland)

Nili Latu (captain, NEC)


Substitutes:


Ilaisa Ma'asi (Counties Manukau)

Tevita Mailau (Mont De Marsan)

Kamaliele Sakalia (Marist Tonga)

Sitiveni Mafi (Leicester)

Sione Timani (Llanelli)

Viliame 'longi (Marist Longoteme)

Eddie Paea (Eastern Suburbs)

Alipate Fatafehi (Lyon)

[RDW]

Looks like its the ginger midget at 8 for Edinburgh then!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

You might still get him, not all of the remaining Scotland squad members will make the 23, so they may release more later in the week. Suppose it depends if Rennie/Strokosch recover.

Can't see Rosco recovering, Pat, there was talk of him going under the surgeon's knife?

[justified sinner]

Actually not surprised Dunbar has been released, he's been mucked about this season playing from 12 to 14 and imo hasn't looked the same player as last year. Needs to make one of those spots, hopefully 13 his own at Glasgow, then move on to Scotland.

On the plus side glad Seymour has been retained, been impressed with him.

[Imperialbigdave]

Looks like its the ginger midget at 8 for Edinburgh then!

On the plus side, hopefully Hamish Watson will get a game. Never been as impressed with a 20 minute cameo as I have with him against Ulster last season.

[Cryptoyourisan]

This is insanity! Not capping Dunbar and bringing in Heathcote?! I'm not saying getting Heathcote on the books for us is necessarily a bad thing if he gets game time over Donald but what sort of pleb drops the home-town player in favour of someone who a lot of people have never heard of? I'm running out of things to say in criticising Robinson.

[George Carlin]

I am officially 'over it' now. Sticking with DeBrainfart is ridiculous - we can only hope that Horne is taking his place, although it would seem unlikely.

I actually care more about the fact that Glasgow will have Ryder and Dunbar against Leinster than the Scotland team at the moment. We will beat Tonga regardless of who plays - however, this does go to show that Robinson has not improved as a selector one bit.

I am absolutely cogniscant of the fact that we cannot see players training or know how they are in a game environment but it's really very difficult to believe that NDL and his merry men don't have targets painted on their chests. If he isn't replaced with someone and Seymour isn't given at least half an hour, then I will start drinking Schizoid's Kool Aid.

[Pat_Mustard]

This is insanity! Not capping Dunbar and bringing in Heathcote?! I'm not saying getting Heathcote on the books for us is necessarily a bad thing if he gets game time over Donald but what sort of pleb drops the home-town player in favour of someone who a lot of people have never heard of? I'm running out of things to say in criticising Robinson.

I agree with you about Dunbar, he should have been given a chance in this game, although he will have more chance with Scotland if Glasgow play him at 12 which is his better position imo. But I don't think Heathcote is a swap for Dunbar, he's a fly half who's in to allow Jackson to return to Glasgow for an important pro 12 game. So Im happy to give the new guy a chance.


From a Scotland point of view I'd hope Gilchrist, McInally, Pyrgos, Horne and Seymour get a chance but I can see the logic in prioritising the pro12 now we can't make the top 8.

[Captain_Sensible]

I think it's great that Heathcote is being brought in. We need more depth at 10, that is plain for all to see. He kicks his goals, and looks to have a decent running game. Similar to Weir, except less Meatball-y.

As Pat says, his inclusion is a totally different issue to the exclusion of Dunbar. I understand that Glasgow might want him back, but we really need to explore our outside centre options at an international level and build a strong set of experienced players for the 2015 world cup. Dunbar should be getting a cap soon, and what more perfect game than the one vs Tonga?

[Pat_Mustard]

You might still get him, not all of the remaining Scotland squad members will make the 23, so they may release more later in the week. Suppose it depends if Rennie/Strokosch recover.

Can't see Rosco recovering, Pat, there was talk of him going under the surgeon's knife?

I knew that

Is Basilaia away with Georgia and Talei injured? Shame if he is, with Georgia vs Fiji this Saturday might have been interesting to watch!

[RDW]

Both were said to be out injured for 6 weeks a few weeks ago. Not been any update since but, with Denton and McInally away, means we have no number 8s left!

[tigertattie]

Why is Tonks being overlooked in favour of Murchie?

[George Carlin]

Why is Tonks being overlooked in favour of Murchie?

Do you mean a reason other than 'AR is a urine poor selector of rugby players'?

[EST]

I can see the benefit of having Heathcote in the squad - the more promising tens available, the better.

I do feel slightly for Dunbar, but his time will undoubtedly come sooner rather than later. I agree with the posters who suggest his best position is 12 - he made much more impact there at the tail end of last season than he has at 13 this season. He also offers a different option to Matt Scott, a good battle going forward for the 12 shirt.

As for the game at the weekend, I would retain the core of the squad, giving game time to a few of the inexperienced guys, moving forward into the new year.

Grant
Ford
Murray
Kellock (Gray if fit
Hamilton
Brown
Barclay
Denton

Pyrgos
Laidlaw
Visser
Scott
Horne
Seymour
Hogg

Shields
Hall
Cross
Strockosh
Gilchrist
Heathcote
De Luca

[TJ1]

Drop ford. He looks jaded and out of sorts. give his replacements the game time.

[EST]

Drop ford. He looks jaded and out of sorts. give his replacements the game time.

I thought he picked up his game from the NZ clash. If MacArthur was available I would have started with him throughout the series. As it is, Ford just stays in the team courtesy of a slightly improved performance.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Thought Fordy was ok to decent against the Boks - he can stay

[TJ1]

Just no point in playing ford. I do not mean to drop him for poor play although he has been below his usual standards. I think a sit on the bench will do him no harm Give the bench guys the gametime. Put Ford on the bench if you really are worried about weakening the team.

Games like this are the opportunity for fringe players to get game time

[EST]

In principle I agree, but in that position the only guys to bring in are fairly well established anyway (Hall and Lawson). If we had a young, up and coming alternative - I would play him.

[nickj]

I'm delighted Heathcote has been called up. As discussed we need all the depth we can get and he has a good reputation at Bath.

I thought we might see a few more new caps vs Tonga but I can see the sense in keeping the spine of the team together and getting a win under our belts before the 6N's. I don't think Tonga will be pushovers by any stretch.

[RuggerRadge2611]

It may come as a shock to people but I am an NDL defender on these forums. And in this particular game I want to see a new centre partnership perhaps Scott and Horne.

However I am at a loss to see what NDL did so wrong against NZ & The Bokke.

He made his tackles, carried pretty well but was battered by the Bokke in the contact are (something tells me he won't be the only centre to fall into that category) and aside from his silly kick through didn't do much wrong.

He also played very well against Samoa, Fiji and Australia in th summer.

It is my opinion that certain posters just don't like him and even if he was to start pooping out tiffany cuff links and sending them to Scottish fans he'll still have his haters. A shame for the guy tbh because his reputation is now impossible to shift.

I am trully happy to cap someone else for the Tonga game but I don't see what NDL did so wrong.

Anyone care to explain?

[RDW]

You're not alone Radge!

I'd understand if there was an amazing player being kept out, but the only other option just now is Dunbar who, although had a few good games last year, hasn't really stood out at all this year.

Wait until Cairnsy and Ansbro come back, Dunbar develops more and the messiah, I mean Bennet, plays at least one game of professional rugby!

[IanBru]

I’m also very happy about Heathcote being called up - I remember being very impressed with him during the Glasgow v Bath HK match last year.

The way he would calmly step up and kick his goals with a minimum of fuss was almost, dare I say… Paterson-esque

I agree about De Luca - some people's reaction seems a bit pathological.

[RDW]

It's just a shame that Atiga already has a NZ cap - could have done with him!

[Captain_Sensible]

For me, NDL is not the total Frak that a lot of people make him out to be. My problem is that he’s just deeply average. He’s never brought his Edinburgh form to a Scotland jersey. He defends well but gives away silly penalties and gets silly yellow cards. He generally takes the wrong option will ball in hand, and drops it quite frequently. If Ansbro was fit I wouldn’t want NDL anywhere near the team. Dunbar would be covering both centre positions from the bench.

[George Carlin]

For me, NDL is not the total Frak that a lot of people make him out to be. My problem is that he’s just deeply average. He’s never brought his Edinburgh form to a Scotland jersey. He defends well but gives away silly penalties and gets silly yellow cards. He generally takes the wrong option will ball in hand, and drops it quite frequently. If Ansbro was fit I wouldn’t want NDL anywhere near the team. Dunbar would be covering both centre positions from the bench.

+1

[RuggerRadge2611]

For me, NDL is not the total Frak that a lot of people make him out to be. My problem is that he’s just deeply average. He’s never brought his Edinburgh form to a Scotland jersey. He defends well but gives away silly penalties and gets silly yellow cards. He generally takes the wrong option will ball in hand, and drops it quite frequently. If Ansbro was fit I wouldn’t want NDL anywhere near the team. Dunbar would be covering both centre positions from the bench.

I appreciate your opinion and the fact that you have given reasons why you think he is rubbish. However I want to adress some of your points :

He gives away silly penalties and gets silly yellow cards.
Lots of Scottish players are guilty of getting Yellow Cards: Rory Lamont, Jim Hamilton, Ross Rennie, John Barclay the list goes on.

He generally makes the wrong option with the ball in hand.
Except when he set Visser up for his try against Fiji or Ansbro's try against Ireland, or Sean Lamonts try against France... He has also beaten 4 defenders in the games against NZ & SA.

He knocks on quite a bit.
One knock on against NZ.... and one in the summer tour.

He missed 3 tackles against NZ, but then again "The Chopper" Strokosch missed 5, Hogg Missed 2, Laidlaw missed 2, Ford Missed 2 and that stat kind of means nothing since our guys were tackling shadows for 10 minutes. De Luca Missed no tackles against SA.

Is he a scapegoat for some guys on here?

My point I do think is being missed. I want to see how the Glasgow lads get on but that doesn't mean I think NDL has done anything wrong. In the cold light of day it's hard to argue he has played badly in the last 2 games.

Also worth remembering in the last 2 games we played the best 2 teams in the world.

[RDW]

Good post Radge - people's perception of a performance and the actual stats on their performance are often very different.

On the flip side though, stats don't mean everything.

De Luca could score a hatrick and still get bashed on here!

[RuggerRadge2611]

Great Article from Allan Massie in the hootsmon.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/allan-massie-quelled-by-a-combination-of-clancy-and-nothing-fancy-1-2645780

QUITE often in the last ten or twelve years we might have responded to a 10-21 defeat at the hands of one of the Tri-Nations with some relief.

Not this time, which makes Saturday’s game and result all the more irritating. A week ago we were beaten by a team playing beautiful rugby; this time we lost to one playing precious little rugby at all. All four wings on the field were starved of the ball.

Throughout the first half Scotland played as if still recovering from their strenuous efforts against New Zealand. They were dreadfully slow and lacking in fire. Tackles were missed, and when we had the ball and took it into the breakdown, it was never recycled quickly. Time and again Mike Blair was having to dig it out. His occasional attempts to get referee George Clancy to take note of South African bodies on the wrong side of the ball were met with indifference.

We did do a couple of clever things, twice refusing to engage in the maul so that the Springboks were correctly penalised. On the second occasion this denied them a try. Unfortunately, when we attempted it a third time, Mr Clancy wasn’t interested. By the time the Scottish forwards realised that he wasn’t going to blow his whistle, it was too late to stem the South African surge. The line was crossed and the try awarded. As Jonathan Davies remarked at half-time, you do look for consistency from the referee.

Mike Blair has taken the blame for the second Springbok try, and certainly he might have been more alert, and checked his pass, but if the South African hooker came from an onside position to intercept it, he must be quicker off the starting blocks than Usain Bolt.

It used to be considered bad form to criticise the referee, but nowadays international referees are well-paid professionals, and no longer entitled to be immune from scrutiny. Mr Clancy has never seemed one of the better referees on the international panel. His performance on Saturday did nothing to cause one to revise that opinion. To wait until the 77th minute before giving a Springbok a yellow card for persistent infringement in their own 22 might be thought admirably tolerant if you were a South African. Chicken-hearted if you were a Scot. . .

Nevertheless, we had our chances to win after that well-executed training-ground move enabled Henry Pyrgos to score and bring us back into the game. We dominated the last half-hour, but were denied time and again, partly because we showed more determination than imagination, partly because little mistakes crept in.

Greig Laidlaw and Ruaridh Jackson have both been criticised for kicking away possession. What was wrong, in both cases, was not the idea, but its execution. Laidlaw’s kick wasn’t high enough to let the chasers compete for the ball, and Jackson’s chip was just too long. Even so, a more fortunate bounce might have resulted in the try being scored. Anything can happen when the ball lands in the in-goal area.

The first half was again, sadly, marked by missed first-up tackles. If Greig Laidlaw is going to be played at fly-half, he needs more protection than he got. A small lightweight ten will always be targeted by big back-row forwards. Ask Charlie Hodgson, the most talented English fly-half of recent years, who lost his place in the England XV when the All Blacks ran through him or over him.

There were successes in the Scotland team. Up front, Ryan Grant, David Denton and Ross Ford all made several storming runs into the heart of the Springbok defence, without, however, being able to off-load the ball to a supporting runner.

When they were brought to ground, the recycling, even in our best passages of play, was rarely quick enough. So the backs almost never got the ball on the front foot, and our most dangerous runners, Tim Visser and Stuart Hogg, were never brought into the game.

In the centre, Matt Scott and Nick De Luca had no option but to drive forward, because they were granted neither time nor space to do anything else. Still, we must surely try to have our back-three coming from deep on a different angle. The Tongan match next week will, one hopes, give them a chance to do so, but only if we secure quick and clean ball.

Looking on the brighter side, Scotland in these matches against the top two teams in the world have no more reason to be depressed by their November experience than England and Ireland, and less reason than Wales.

Unfortunately, the brighter side is still bleak. If you discount England’s canter against an under-strength and ill-prepared Fiji, the Lions countries’ record is played six, lost six. England played like bears of very little brain against Australia, refusing to kick at goal when only six points down. Being 11 points behind, Kelly Brown had more reason to go for a try rather than trying to kick any of the penalties awarded. Nevertheless, he may have been wrong. Chipping away at a lead puts pressure on your opponents.

I want to draw attantion to the part in Bold. NDL & Scott had precious little time to do anything against that Bokke Defence.


The Article as a whole is interesting. I really do not think there was much between Scotland and SA at the weekend. The Scoreboard notes a loss and Mike Blair will rue that intercepted pass.

But what was the deal with that 1st SA try and the Maul that never was? Was it a Maul or what? I'll post that question up in the ask the ref section I think.

Clancy did have a shocker but should Kelly Brown have used the penalties to chip away at the bokke lead? Was he right to go for the corners? If he hadn't we might not have gotten our try.

[cp10]

Fans always need a Dan Parks to vent their frustrations.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

For me, NDL is not the total Frak that a lot of people make him out to be. My problem is that he’s just deeply average. He’s never brought his Edinburgh form to a Scotland jersey. He defends well but gives away silly penalties and gets silly yellow cards. He generally takes the wrong option will ball in hand, and drops it quite frequently. If Ansbro was fit I wouldn’t want NDL anywhere near the team. Dunbar would be covering both centre positions from the bench.

+1

[Captain_Sensible]

For me, NDL is not the total Frak that a lot of people make him out to be. My problem is that he’s just deeply average. He’s never brought his Edinburgh form to a Scotland jersey. He defends well but gives away silly penalties and gets silly yellow cards. He generally takes the wrong option will ball in hand, and drops it quite frequently. If Ansbro was fit I wouldn’t want NDL anywhere near the team. Dunbar would be covering both centre positions from the bench.

I appreciate your opinion and the fact that you have given reasons why you think he is rubbish. However I want to adress some of your points :

He gives away silly penalties and gets silly yellow cards.
Lots of Scottish players are guilty of getting Yellow Cards: Rory Lamont, Jim Hamilton, Ross Rennie, John Barclay the list goes on.

He generally makes the wrong option with the ball in hand.
Except when he set Visser up for his try against Fiji or Ansbro's try against Ireland, or Sean Lamonts try against France... He has also beaten 4 defenders in the games against NZ & SA.

He knocks on quite a bit.
One knock on against NZ.... and one in the summer tour.

He missed 3 tackles against NZ, but then again "The Chopper" Strokosch missed 5, Hogg Missed 2, Laidlaw missed 2, Ford Missed 2 and that stat kind of means nothing since our guys were tackling shadows for 10 minutes. De Luca Missed no tackles against SA.

Is he a scapegoat for some guys on here?

My point I do think is being missed. I want to see how the Glasgow lads get on but that doesn't mean I think NDL has done anything wrong. In the cold light of day it's hard to argue he has played badly in the last 2 games.

Also worth remembering in the last 2 games we played the best 2 teams in the world.

I know we have been playing high quality teams, but we need to have high standards to compete with these guys in the long term.

To address some of your points in return

- Of course everyone collects yellow cards, but all the other players you mention (barring R Lamont perhaps) bring enough to the side to outweigh the odd card. I don’t think NDL does. His yellow cards vs Italy and Wales during the 2012 6N were brainlessly criminal, and effectively cost us those games.

- Yes, he does take the right option sometimes (though it was Ansbro who set up Lamont’s try vs France in 2011). The Ansbro try vs Ireland was a set move, so he didn’t really have an option. He’s great for Edinburgh with ball in hand, but somehow his brain often turns to jelly when he’s in the same situations for Scotland. Hence the high frequency of knock ons over his Scotland career.

- He’s been ok in the past 2 games, but my disappointment with him is more of a cumulative thing. He’s never going to be a top class centre.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I don't see need for merit less bashing of NdL but to deny that he is anything more than average on the international stage seems just plain naive to me. I cannot think of any other team in the top 10 that would have him at OC, which if nothing else demonstrates our paucity of options (similar could be said of other positions too btw). It is past the time when we should be looking at other options, the Messiah is once more in our presence, lets get at them!

[George Carlin]

I don't see need for merit less bashing of NdL but to deny that he is anything more than average on the international stage seems just plain naive to me. I cannot think of any other team in the top 10 that would have him at OC, which if nothing else demonstrates our paucity of options (similar could be said of other positions too btw). It is past the time when we should be looking at other options, the Messiah is once more in our presence, lets get at them!

Oh no you didn't, girlfriend.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I don't see need for merit less bashing of NdL but to deny that he is anything more than average on the international stage seems just plain naive to me. I cannot think of any other team in the top 10 that would have him at OC, which if nothing else demonstrates our paucity of options (similar could be said of other positions too btw). It is past the time when we should be looking at other options, the Messiah is once more in our presence, lets get at them!

Oh no you didn't, girlfriend.

It doesn't take much to set FES off you guys. he is a man on the edge! Don't bait him!

[Tattie Scones RRN]

Great Article from Allan Massie in the hootsmon.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/allan-massie-quelled-by-a-combination-of-clancy-and-nothing-fancy-1-2645780

QUITE often in the last ten or twelve years we might have responded to a 10-21 defeat at the hands of one of the Tri-Nations with some relief.

Not this time, which makes Saturday’s game and result all the more irritating. A week ago we were beaten by a team playing beautiful rugby; this time we lost to one playing precious little rugby at all. All four wings on the field were starved of the ball.

Throughout the first half Scotland played as if still recovering from their strenuous efforts against New Zealand. They were dreadfully slow and lacking in fire. Tackles were missed, and when we had the ball and took it into the breakdown, it was never recycled quickly. Time and again Mike Blair was having to dig it out. His occasional attempts to get referee George Clancy to take note of South African bodies on the wrong side of the ball were met with indifference.

We did do a couple of clever things, twice refusing to engage in the maul so that the Springboks were correctly penalised. On the second occasion this denied them a try. Unfortunately, when we attempted it a third time, Mr Clancy wasn’t interested. By the time the Scottish forwards realised that he wasn’t going to blow his whistle, it was too late to stem the South African surge. The line was crossed and the try awarded. As Jonathan Davies remarked at half-time, you do look for consistency from the referee.

Mike Blair has taken the blame for the second Springbok try, and certainly he might have been more alert, and checked his pass, but if the South African hooker came from an onside position to intercept it, he must be quicker off the starting blocks than Usain Bolt.

It used to be considered bad form to criticise the referee, but nowadays international referees are well-paid professionals, and no longer entitled to be immune from scrutiny. Mr Clancy has never seemed one of the better referees on the international panel. His performance on Saturday did nothing to cause one to revise that opinion. To wait until the 77th minute before giving a Springbok a yellow card for persistent infringement in their own 22 might be thought admirably tolerant if you were a South African. Chicken-hearted if you were a Scot. . .

Nevertheless, we had our chances to win after that well-executed training-ground move enabled Henry Pyrgos to score and bring us back into the game. We dominated the last half-hour, but were denied time and again, partly because we showed more determination than imagination, partly because little mistakes crept in.

Greig Laidlaw and Ruaridh Jackson have both been criticised for kicking away possession. What was wrong, in both cases, was not the idea, but its execution. Laidlaw’s kick wasn’t high enough to let the chasers compete for the ball, and Jackson’s chip was just too long. Even so, a more fortunate bounce might have resulted in the try being scored. Anything can happen when the ball lands in the in-goal area.

The first half was again, sadly, marked by missed first-up tackles. If Greig Laidlaw is going to be played at fly-half, he needs more protection than he got. A small lightweight ten will always be targeted by big back-row forwards. Ask Charlie Hodgson, the most talented English fly-half of recent years, who lost his place in the England XV when the All Blacks ran through him or over him.

There were successes in the Scotland team. Up front, Ryan Grant, David Denton and Ross Ford all made several storming runs into the heart of the Springbok defence, without, however, being able to off-load the ball to a supporting runner.

When they were brought to ground, the recycling, even in our best passages of play, was rarely quick enough. So the backs almost never got the ball on the front foot, and our most dangerous runners, Tim Visser and Stuart Hogg, were never brought into the game.

In the centre, Matt Scott and Nick De Luca had no option but to drive forward, because they were granted neither time nor space to do anything else. Still, we must surely try to have our back-three coming from deep on a different angle. The Tongan match next week will, one hopes, give them a chance to do so, but only if we secure quick and clean ball.

Looking on the brighter side, Scotland in these matches against the top two teams in the world have no more reason to be depressed by their November experience than England and Ireland, and less reason than Wales.

Unfortunately, the brighter side is still bleak. If you discount England’s canter against an under-strength and ill-prepared Fiji, the Lions countries’ record is played six, lost six. England played like bears of very little brain against Australia, refusing to kick at goal when only six points down. Being 11 points behind, Kelly Brown had more reason to go for a try rather than trying to kick any of the penalties awarded. Nevertheless, he may have been wrong. Chipping away at a lead puts pressure on your opponents.

I want to draw attantion to the part in Bold. NDL & Scott had precious little time to do anything against that Bokke Defence.


The Article as a whole is interesting. I really do not think there was much between Scotland and SA at the weekend. The Scoreboard notes a loss and Mike Blair will rue that intercepted pass.

But what was the deal with that 1st SA try and the Maul that never was? Was it a Maul or what? I'll post that question up in the ask the ref section I think.

Clancy did have a shocker but should Kelly Brown have used the penalties to chip away at the bokke lead? Was he right to go for the corners? If he hadn't we might not have gotten our try.

It's something a few of us discussed after the match - would have been another 18-21 points if we'd kicked all the penalties given in the last 15-20 minutes. However, when you notice the ref not penalising the opposition constantly for the first 60 minutes, you begin to think that you won't get any penalties. Being awarded one might make you think it's going to be your only chance. In saying that, the decision to kick for the corner instead of a tap and go (guaranteeing possession) was criminal!!

Also Radge, apologies for not getting in touch for a post match drink with your good self and fES......uncontrollable shaking from the cold meant getting into the MF Hotel as quick as possible before heading up the Three Sisters.

Hope you had a good one though

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I don't see need for merit less bashing of NdL but to deny that he is anything more than average on the international stage seems just plain naive to me. I cannot think of any other team in the top 10 that would have him at OC, which if nothing else demonstrates our paucity of options (similar could be said of other positions too btw). It is past the time when we should be looking at other options, the Messiah is once more in our presence, lets get at them!

Oh no you didn't, girlfriend.

It doesn't take much to set FES off you guys. he is a man on the edge! Don't bait him!

oh c'mon Ragde, just a little gentle prodding, pls?

[MacKnocked-on]

I think there is certainly some optimism about the evolving Scotland back line with Visser, Hogg and presumably Maitland by the 6n but the feeling is that the current inside backs aren't quite right to bring the best out of the back three. This may be down to selection issues (I think Ansbro is an all round better player than De Luca but as he is currently injured that is irrelevant unfortunately) but there are surely also tactical problems, when was the last time we saw Hogg coming into the line at speed as fullbacks traditionally should do?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

True, MacK, as is most obviously demonstrated by Matt Scott admitting that he is currently under orders to truck it up like a crash ball centre!

[bsando]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20386692

Interesting...

[bsando]

In July, Lancaster omitted Heathcote from the second-string England Saxons squad, but described the fly-half as being "on the cusp" of his Elite Player Squad.
Lancaster said Heathcote was one of a group of young players who he was "really looking forward to seeing develop in the next 12 months and beyond". BBC

Haha, AR pulls another fast one. It really is you snooze you lose in International rugby sometimes. How do England supporters feel about this?

[funnyExiledScot]

I don't have an issue with parachuting in heathcote, but I would not have dropped jackson to do it, i'd have ditched laidlaw. Dunbar is a little unlucky, but perhaps ar will use horne at 12 and scott at 13, or even scott and lamont with seymour on the wing.

Like radge and rdw, i'll always stick up for ndl who is harshly judged by scots fans, but this was a good chance to try something new. Laidlaw, scott and ndl starting again would be a missed opportunity.

[Captain_Sensible]

I'm happy with him keeping Laidlaw. He's probably a more consistent 10 than Jackson, and can actually kick goals as well. A Pyrgos/Jacko combo with Heathcote on the bench would be very dodgy in terms of goalkicking until Heathcote comes on.

What's more important is to get Laidlaw back to 9, where he could be such a huge asset for us. Zippy service and some footballing nous at last, with Pyrgos/Cusiter as bench options.

[tigertattie]

So. Back to tonga.

we should be winning this by 30 points?

[funnyExiledScot]

On the 13 jersey generally, I do think cairns and ansbro being injured has cost us depth, and grove seems to now be out of fashion, and I like him as a player. But ndl has been the pick of the options from club rugby, no doubt.

Bennett is too busy right now planning his birthday on the 25th december. Asbo, will you be bringing gold, frankinsense or myrr to the stable??

[TJ1]

So. Back to tonga.

we should be winning this by 30 points?

Be happy to take a win given recent events both inside and outside Scotland. A win with style would be bounty beyond belief.

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm happy with him keeping Laidlaw. He's probably a more consistent 10 than Jackson, and can actually kick goals as well. A Pyrgos/Jacko combo with Heathcote on the bench would be very dodgy in terms of goalkicking until Heathcote comes on.

What's more important is to get Laidlaw back to 9, where he could be such a huge asset for us. Zippy service and some footballing nous at last, with Pyrgos/Cusiter as bench options.

What about pyrgos, jackson and horne, with horne kicking and scott at 13?

Laidlaw did miss an important and kickable kick against the boks, and the execution of his kicking from hand was not good. This season laidlaw has been average at best, whereas jackson, although inconsistent, has put together some strong passages of play. I'd have given him a chance here personally.

[R!skysports]

I will put my hand up as NDL basher - too often it is the unforced Brain Farts that has freaked my balls off

Hamliton, Bracley and Rennie were mentioned - well they are in the coal face and part of their job is to go to that line - the line where the ref considers a penalty

A 13 Should not be doing that when no pressure on.

As far as I can remember he has done one brilliant pass to get a try

In our household it goes


TV - And NDL has the ball
Missis - Oh god, whats he going to do wrong this time
TV - and he has dropped the ball / been tunred over / hold on / kicked the ball away

It is uncanny! how often she is right! Uncanny I tell you

The same goes for Ford with a throw in 5 yards from the line - you could put £5 on him mucking it up and you would certainly be up by the end of the game!

Grrrrr - rant - Grrr

[funnyExiledScot]

Ah, so it's your missus that provides the basis for your rugby knowlwdge!!

[R!skysports]

Of course. She tells me everything I need to know. She even lets me out now an again

[MacKnocked-on]

I feel that Jackson really could be on the cusp of not continuing as an option for Scotland, he has too many aspects of his game that need improving, Laidlaw's missed kick against SA was typical of a lot of Jackson's efforts at place kicking if you watch him playing for Glasgow. Also, for a running standoff his play on Saturday was really poor, aimless passing without trying to draw the would-be tackler first and flinging a rocket pass at Visser from about two metres. Scotland obviously can't afford to jetison players willy-nilly but we also shouldn't stick with players who aren't up to scratch, hence Robinson looking about for other options such as Heathcote and whoever else may appear on the radar in the next few months before the 6n. I'm sure that the Scotland option has been put to Robbie Robinson for example.

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