The Original - England v All Blacks - KO 14:30 Sat 1st DEC at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA 15-16 We was robbed, by our Captain this time.
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

[emack2]

Judging by news fitering out from the NZ Media,the whole squad plus the 2 call ups will be available for selection.
Less Andrew Hore who will be unavailable due to citing,Mealamu and Carter are expected to start.
Some speculation the young guns may be given a run,BUT Given NZ consider this THE match.That they want to go home unbeaten expect the strongest possible side starting and a strong bench.
England are in the position of nothing to lose so they may well pull of a surprise especially in bad weather.
Not that the wet will worry the men in Black,players used to the gales of Wellington.

[Taylorman]

Yes saw that. Everyones available.
Not good news for England and with most having rested against Italy and having a lighter run than England last weekend we should be as fresh as we can be at the last game of the year.

England will need to lift considerably as SA despite winning are playing average rugby, even for themselves.

[maestegmafia]

Great for the game to see a full strength AB side out there.

I imagine this game to be closer for the ABs than last weekend. England are playing some tough rugby and don't have as much of a naive defence as Wales currently do.

I wonder if either side will employ the 13man line out tactic? Seemed to work last week.

[Taylorman]

I think it will now be a bigger margin for the Hore affair. This will motivate them like no other to want to let their their rugby do their talking and it could be niggly. The amount of hate around for this side could easily make any confrontation on the field a reason for either side one that it probably doesnt need to be.

Justify it however we want to but this side is under fire for Hores actions and that will show on the weekend. The action itself, the fuel being added by Hansens non committal, the press and finally the crowd on Saturday will make this match ugly. And that will not be all the ABs fault. Both sides are professionals but I think only the ABs will be able to hold to that.

[bluestonevedder]

I think it will now be a bigger margin for the Hore affair. This will motivate them like no other to want to let their their rugby do their talking and it could be niggly. The amount of hate around for this side could easily make any confrontation on the field a reason for either side one that it probably doesnt need to be.

Justify it however we want to but this side is under fire for Hores actions and that will show on the weekend. The action itself, the fuel being added by Hansens non committal, the press and finally the crowd on Saturday will make this match ugly. And that will not be all the ABs fault. Both sides are professionals but I think only the ABs will be able to hold to that.

Sorry Taylorman, couldn't resist!

[doctor_grey]

Just a feeling, mind.
Just an inkling.
A kernal of a thought.
This Saturday, England = Blind dog finding a bone

[emack2]

Until the actual Citing hearing is carried out Hansen and Co. are saying nothing.
Once it is over then expect a Public Apology from the NZ Management.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

I'd rather go down to a full ABs side than a shadow one.

And I said down to and not on.

p.s. Well done the wimmin last evening.

[Taylorman]

I think it will now be a bigger margin for the Hore affair. This will motivate them like no other to want to let their their rugby do their talking and it could be niggly. The amount of hate around for this side could easily make any confrontation on the field a reason for either side one that it probably doesnt need to be.

Justify it however we want to but this side is under fire for Hores actions and that will show on the weekend. The action itself, the fuel being added by Hansens non committal, the press and finally the crowd on Saturday will make this match ugly. And that will not be all the ABs fault. Both sides are professionals but I think only the ABs will be able to hold to that.

Sorry Taylorman, couldn't resist!

Seen a few of these. I like the fact that hes got the best possible name for the position...A Hore

[Taylorman]

Just a feeling, mind.
Just an inkling.
A kernal of a thought.
This Saturday, England = Blind dog finding a bone

Hi ya doc... its sure been an interesting week and will get more interesting this weekend.
Its the sort of thing the ABs will use as motivation and for that reason alone I now think England will be in trouble.

England will come out firing I agree. I just think the ABs will have one of those 'another gear' matches that theyve had this year.

You get it live where you are?

[doctor_grey]

Yeah, I will have it live. Only some of the November Internationals have been live here. Not sure the rhyme or reason for the choices. But will have the Eng-AB match for sure. Something about that matchup which has even casual Rugby types looking in. No matter what, these are big events.

In reality the ABs are a level above England. But if my boys come out firing and find a way to actually put in a bit of creativity in attack, then we have a shot. I am hoping having a bloke like Lawes on the bench will help out too. My biggest concern is about England holding their own on defense for the full 80. Your ABs are patient enough to wait for the slightest crack then rip into it.

[Cumbrian]

The retained squad members:

Forwards: Alex Corbisiero, Dan Cole, James Haskell, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Ben Morgan, David Paice, Geoff Parling, Chris Robshaw, Mako Vunipola, David Wilson, Tom Wood, Tom Youngs

Backs: Chris Ashton, Brad Barritt, Mike Brown, Freddie Burns, Danny Care, Owen Farrell, Alex Goode, Jonathan Joseph, Manusamoa Tuilagi, Ben Youngs

[EnglishReign]

Once Twelvetrees, Wade and May are in that squad, I see a great platform to work from.

[gregortree]

ER, seconded

[EnglishReign]

ER, seconded

Have you heard, Burns asked Nigel if he gets under 20 mins at Twickers, can he play for Glaws on the Sunday?

Love it!

[aitchw]

I haven't seen anything yet from the AIs yet to suggest to me that this England side has what it is going to take to get near the ABs. The best I can hope for is parity for parts of the game up front and expect the backs to be devoid of any opportunities in attack. With Farrell at 10 we will be going nowhere fast. I hope I'm totally wrong but can't see it being anything other than a comfortable AB win. My other concern is Lawes. I expect him to be ineffective and frustration will push him close to a sending off. Not happy about the prospects at all. Praying I am going to feel really stupid for all the above after the game.

[gregortree]

ER, Burns, love it, what a mustard guy.

[mystiroakey]

Any of you believe we can win this . I got 9-1 on England..

[gregortree]

Well at least Tom Youngs will not get ko'd by Andrew Hore now.

[yappysnap]

Honestly I don't think any one expects England to win, we're just hoping we don't do a Wales and get our pants pulled down and a damn good spanking.

[mystiroakey]

I believe..

[fa0019]

I think this ENG team have got a lot of metal, lesser sides could have been destroyed by SA in the 2nd test in Ellis Park... but they came back fighting and almost won the game with a good comeback.

I would see an away test in Ellis Park vs. the boks as a tricker match than at home vs. NZ.

They will front up... something ENG do not lack. I think it will be a good game and reasonably close.

[doctor_grey]

Any of you believe we can win this . I got 9-1 on England..

9-1? I would take that in a minute. Plop down a fifty and then just wait for the money to start rolling in.
Maybe.

[mystiroakey]

betfair

[Big]

Concentrating on the age of the England squad, sorry for any repetition, but I'm expecting something along the lines of...

Tight 5
Corbisiero (24), Youngs (25), Cole (25), Lawes (23), Launchbury (21)
Average age ~24

Back Row
Wood (26), Robshaw (26), Morgan (23)
Average age ~25

Half Backs
Care (25), Farrell (21)
Average age ~23

Centres
Barritt (26), Tuilagi (21)
Average age ~24

Back 3
Brown (27), Ashton (25), Goode (24)
Average age ~26

Total team average ~24

It really is a very young team. What's noticeable to me is that realistically we may put out a side where the oldest player is 27 but still be a competitive side - maybe not against New Zealand, but definitely against anyone else.

The really promising aspect is that if they improve as you would normally expect they will be a very very good side in a couple of years. I mean the tight 5 look seriously good as it is, and are for the most part very very young for the positions - they may not be at the peak until 2019.

The disturbing aspect is that we don't have a host of players in their late twenties/early thirties who have developed to their full potential and can now provide leadership and experience to these players. Have we just had a few barren years (with Robinson in particular, and Ashton to a lesser extent failing to really bring anyone through) or is there a major problem with the way we look after and develop players? Are all these very very promising youngsters going to not only not develop, but even drop off in form (a bit like Ashton).

[Taylorman]

man... that is a young side. Didnt know it was that young throughout...jeepers...

[aucklandlaurie]

All Black team for Sunday morning:
Tony Woodcock
K.Mealamu
O.Franks
B.retallick
S.Whitelock
L.Messam
R.McCaw
K.Reid
Aaron.Smith
D.Carter
M.Nonu
Conrad Smith
C.Jane
J.Savea
I.Dagg

Reserves
D.Coles
W.Crockett
C.Faumuina
L.Romano
V.Vito
P.Weepu
A.Cruden
Ben Smith


Mealamu,Carter,Woodcock to pass fitness sessions at tomorrows training.

[Taylorman]

Strong side. I prefer Romano to Retallick but its just being picky. Superb backline with a Savea who has gone straight up hill all year, now a much more accomplished winger both in confidence and versatility. This boy is going to fly over the next two years.

The interesting thing for me is the Manu factor where he'll find himself swimming bigger fish than himself...similar, but bigger in terms of being a rugby player. And I dont see any areas, individuals or combinations that can match the AB's right across the field.

Its been a while since the English played the ABs so its hard to say where theyre at looking at this years matches.

Just dunno... I'm confident of a win for the ABs but with the youth and inexperience of England if they get overawed they could allow a blow out second half as for the last match of the year the ABs will leave nothing and will be a stronger unit for the rocks thrown at them all week.

All I can say is good luck to England and theyd better be ready for this.

[EnglishReign]

To be honest, we aren't ready. We've got players making debuts, a 10 who isn't 1st choice for his club and so few caps it's laughable. If we even slightly worry the AB's, you should be embarrassed.

[Taylorman]

To be honest, we aren't ready. We've got players making debuts, a 10 who isn't 1st choice for his club and so few caps it's laughable. If we even slightly worry the AB's, you should be embarrassed.

Surely we cant be embarrassed two weeks in a row.

[ultra]

We won't be embarrassed....the poisener's got 'em all!! Woohoo!!

[yappysnap]

Looking at those lineups the AB's should spank us.

But with the quality that's in that AB team I think even if they do it'll still be a pleasure to watch.

[mystiroakey]

Should and will are two different things!

[ultra]

Breaking news tho' they've all been knobbled!! Only two of the touring party didn't eat the poisoned apples Maybe that explains why Hersh has been awol....he's been busy with the ecoli!!

[mystiroakey]

Come on hershy!! crack on lad

[gregortree]

The South Africans are best at preparing an AB supper !

[Omelette]

Well, optimism on these boards by some. I have to say that I don't think this will be the mauling that is expected either. I see our major problem is staying with the blacks in the first half. Southern Hemisphere teams seem to be conditioned to be more explosive and powerful than the northern hemisphere teams, who seem to be conditioned for a more attritional style of rugby. This has shown in both England games and the welsh game last weekend, where the northern hemisphere sides finished strongly (Although this could be put down to NZ taking their foot of the gas and England being within a score both times, which always gets the adrenalin and therefore energy levels up).

For this reason I think we could compete on the score board very well in the second half. I just hope we haven't been blown away in the first.

Overall I think a 10-15 point win for the blacks.

I just hope we see England rise to the blacks level to keep the score down to this and not England dragging the blacks down to their level.

[bluestonevedder]

SQUAD UP http://www.rfu.com/news/2012/november/newsarticles/291112_eng_team_nz

15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 11 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)

1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps)

Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 cap)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps)
22. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
23. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps)


What most expected to be fair. Bench looks very strong.

[mystiroakey]

"I just hope we see England rise to the blacks level to keep the score down to this and not England dragging the blacks down to their level."

If we can win or lose tight i dont care how we do it...

at the end of the day it is what it is- if we control the game(rather than bring them down a level) its just as good imo.

[Guest]

That backline

[bluestonevedder]

I hope Mike Brown has been practicing his attacking positioning. He will get found out quickly if he hasn't.

[Omelette]

"I just hope we see England rise to the blacks level to keep the score down to this and not England dragging the blacks down to their level."

If we can win or lose tight i dont care how we do it...

at the end of the day it is what it is- if we control the game(rather than bring them down a level) its just as good imo.

Well, I have an ulterior motive, I am going to be at the game so would like to see the best team on the planet right now playing some great stuff.

But also, I think a narrow but gutsy loss will teach us nothing. The only way we are going to become a world beating side is to play attacking rugby. Grinding out ugly wins may work in the six nations, and in the future at home from time to time against the 'big three' but to win world cups, and away series down south we need to do a little more. We need to score tries and develop an attack that other teams are afraid of.

Therefore I would rather lose by 5 tries to three than by two tries to none.

Obviously I would rather a victory to any of the above, but I don't see that happening no matter how we play. So we may as well give it a go.

[gregortree]

Omelette agree.
Yes, young team, let's go down guns a'blazing, as we are not going to win at the moment... but as they mature...it will come.

[Alex_Germany]

SQUAD UP http://www.rfu.com/news/2012/november/newsarticles/291112_eng_team_nz


Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 cap)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps)
22. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
23. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps)

What most expected to be fair. Bench looks very strong.

Paice and Wilson (and no disrespect to them) are the only two who I wouldn't want to see coming on at 50 minutes or so.

[lostinwales]

Just want England to remain competitive throughout. NZ do tend to operate at a high level of intensity throughout games but really turn it on for short periods - say 10 minutes where they score 20 points - and then shut up shop.

I dont want one of those 'but we matched them in the 2nd half' type games which are so common. The games are always already won at that point. It would be better if we lost by more points but forced the AB's to play at their highest tempo for all of the match

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Omelette agree.
Yes, young team, let's go down guns a'blazing, as we are not going to win at the moment... but as they mature...it will come.

Hmm.The danger of going down all guns blazing is to lose 0-60 at home.

[Guest]

Hmm.The danger of going down all guns blazing is to lose 0-60 at home.

Every England rugby team since 2003 has been run on that exact logic. Its about time that someone decided to take a few risks.

[Omelette]

Hmm.The danger of going down all guns blazing is to lose 0-60 at home.

Every England rugby team since 2003 has been run on that exact logic. Its about time that someone decided to take a few risks.

Indeed, i'd rather lose 60-0 to a great all blacks side now, playing positive, attacking forward thinking rugby, learn the lessons from it, become a better side and in the future beat them regularly (not that this will definitely be the case if we do lose 60-0, by any means). Rather than lose a close one, and only beat them once every 10 years (if we are lucky) with our current philosophy.

[Big]

Omelette agree.
Yes, young team, let's go down guns a'blazing, as we are not going to win at the moment... but as they mature...it will come.

Hmm.The danger of going down all guns blazing is to lose 0-60 at home.

Agree. Given the ages and potential of the squad I'd say that if anything it's our pack that is going to be scareing teams in a few years time. I say let them try and make a statement now and stick with a direct physical approach. The backs need to develop their basic skills before we even begin to think about running rings round New Zealand, walk before you run and all that. Not saying we shouldn't develop that aspect of the game (of course we should) but being hammered by New Zealand while failing to run the ball isn't going to help the team develop. Spending time in training improving the players passing speed and accuracy will help them develop. When they've got that right then try implementing a more varied game plan against slightly easier opposition and work your way up. Just my view, but there you have it.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Comparison of the 2 backlines is just plain embarrassing (England have suffered big time with the loss of Flood and Foden). If either set of threequarters gets the ball, we’re in trouble. However the packs look close, and with the ABs facing regular squit-replacements, we might be on top here (wouldn’t want to be in the middle of the scrum tho’). So under no circumstances should the ball leave the pack and we might be competitive.

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