The Original - England v All Blacks - KO 14:30 Sat 1st DEC at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA 15-16 We was robbed, by our Captain this time.
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

[HERSH]

But we had more votes on the other thread Ozzy!

Looks like you've merged the wrong one, ie the one that was there 1st?

[LondonTiger]

As HERSH and Morg merge into each other I am getting confused.


any way looks like all those hoping for 36 to play will be disappointed though burns and Nick wood have been called up from Glaws (along with Tom Biggs).

[OzT]

Burns kicked all his goals onSaturday

[HERSH]

36 is the closest thing to Greenwood we have and boy do we need a Greenwood style player in the Centre.

36 should have been given the nod this AI series and with 4 more caps under his belt things would have looked good come the 6 nations IMO.

Why can't the England management see it, I thought with Mike Catt there we would show some creativity?

As for Morgan they say imitation is the highest form of flattery

[LondonTiger]

Burns kicked all his goals onSaturday

He has also eliminated the habit he had last season of running twoards the man he was passing to. this made him very easy to read - and slowed down the service to his outside backs. Now you cannot be sure if he will kick, run or pass.

[HERSH]

At the end of the day he won't be any worse than Flood.

Give the lad a go.

[HERSH]

Should England recall Borthwick?

Borthwick +'s

He is experienced, could help guide Robshaw.
He is still one of the best if not the best lineout operator in England.
He has a cool head.
He likes to talk to Refs in a polite manner.

[HERSH]

I take that as a no then?

[mystiroakey]

cool!! i am exited already!

We gonna win this one..

[Morgannwg]

Let Robshaw keep the captaincy, I'm sure he is learning. Unless there is a better open-side playing in England?

DC and Adam Thompson are set to return for this game, are they not? NZ could be without Cruden and Barret though. If they don't make it then that leaves Dagg to cover fly-half, or a call-up for Nick Evans/Stephen Donald (unlikely).

[damage_13]

he always thinks we play brilliantly ... oh sorry, or was that Corry?

Like Easter, ex internationals always burn up the club circuit with their experience and having played at a higher tempo.

but bring them back again and well..... look at Hatton

[gregortree]

BURNS IN
England fly-half Toby Flood will not be fit to face New Zealand on Saturday, opening the way for Freddie Burns to feature in the match-day squad.
Flood sustained ligament damage in his big toe against South Africa and will not recover in time.

[Chjw131]

Parling has done well enough with England's line-out for the season and I don't see him being a candidate for replacement after his excellent showing in the loose during the SA game.

He'll address what needs to be addressed for the NZ game and i'm sure the line-out will function better.

My biggest concern at present with Flood likely to be out, is Farrell. If he starts at 10 which he surely will do, we are not going to be able to play the sort of game we need to against NZ.

If we look back to 2010 when we last played NZ we came back in that game by playing some more free flowing rugby. We are NOT going to beat NZ without scoring tries.

Clive Woodward said of one of his early games in charge of England against NZ - let's go out and set a target of scoring three tries. That's how England need to approach this game and they won't do that with Owen Farrell at the helm.

It's Burns or Bust as far as I can see.

[andyi]

The bookies appear to concur with most of the voters!
http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/autumn-internationals/england-v-new-zealand/winner
England are between 7 and 9/1

Value for the 5 optomists

[andyi]

For anyone thinking of having a flutter, here's some stats:
=========================================
Statistics for England vs New Zealand (Rev)
Games played: 34 5.11%
Games won by England: 6 17.65%
Games lost by England: 27 79.41%
Games drawn: 1 2.94%
Most wins in a row for England over New Zealand: 2
Most losses in a row for England to New Zealand: 9
Largest points for England: 31 31 - 28
Largest points against England: 64 64 - 22
Largest winning margin for England: 13 13 - 0
Largest losing margin for England: 42 64 - 22
Total points for England: 424
Total points against England: 810
Average points for England per game: 12.47
Average points against England per game: 23.82
Average points difference per game between England and New Zealand: -11.35

And the most recent results:
=============================
06 Nov 2010 England 16 - 26 New Zealand
21 Nov 2009 England 6 - 19 New Zealand
29 Nov 2008 England 6 - 32 New Zealand
21 Jun 2008 New Zealand 44 - 12 England
14 Jun 2008 New Zealand 37 - 20 England
05 Nov 2006 England 20 - 41 New Zealand
19 Nov 2005 England 19 - 23 New Zealand
19 Jun 2004 New Zealand 36 - 12 England
12 Jun 2004 New Zealand 36 - 3 England
14 Jun 2003 New Zealand 13 - 15 England
09 Nov 2002 England 31 - 28 New Zealand
09 Oct 1999 England 16 - 30 New Zealand
27 Jun 1998 New Zealand 40 - 10 England
20 Jun 1998 New Zealand 64 - 22 England
06 Dec 1997 England 26 - 26 New Zealand

Ive got England at 9/1 which is value given they have a win/game ratio of 1/5.66

I don't think they will win but I think that price will shorten and i can lay it off

[yappysnap]

Does any one think that maybe dropping Burns straight in to the starting line up against the best team in the world with absolutely no practice and haing never played with most of them may be a bad thing?

Yes we can all hope and wish for a one in a million first cap but honestly let him carry on with Glos and get in to the 6N's, it should have been either all the games or none for him.

I went for NZ by 14, I think they'll rase away in to a lead, take their foot off the gas, England will get a score (maybe two!!) and then they'll shut it down.

[Morgannwg]

Are 1997-2008 recent results?

[gregortree]

As a Glaws fan, I would not like the risk of Lancaster trashing the young man's confidence. It would be too much of a deep end, as a first start.

[EnglishReign]

Does any one think that maybe dropping Burns straight in to the starting line up against the best team in the world with absolutely no practice and haing never played with most of them may be a bad thing?

Yes we can all hope and wish for a one in a million first cap but honestly let him carry on with Glos and get in to the 6N's, it should have been either all the games or none for him.

I went for NZ by 14, I think they'll rase away in to a lead, take their foot off the gas, England will get a score (maybe two!!) and then they'll shut it down.

I agree it should've been all or nothing, but Freddie is an immensely confident character. The AB prospect won't phase him, if that means we get smashed, then we get smashed. He'll come back stronger.

Also, Lancaster has got him involved with the squad even after not naming him in the EPS. He'll have trained with the team for a month by Saturday.

[yappysnap]

Does any one think that maybe dropping Burns straight in to the starting line up against the best team in the world with absolutely no practice and haing never played with most of them may be a bad thing?

Yes we can all hope and wish for a one in a million first cap but honestly let him carry on with Glos and get in to the 6N's, it should have been either all the games or none for him.

I went for NZ by 14, I think they'll rase away in to a lead, take their foot off the gas, England will get a score (maybe two!!) and then they'll shut it down.

I agree it should've been all or nothing, but Freddie is an immensely confident character. The AB prospect won't phase him, if that means we get smashed, then we get smashed. He'll come back stronger.

Also, Lancaster has got him involved with the squad even after not naming him in the EPS. He'll have trained with the team for a month by Saturday.

I hope you're right.

At least if Farrel starts all Burns will need to do is actually throw a pass to hand and stand flat to look like a superstar!

[gregortree]

Burns on at 50 minutes, yes that would be a reasonable intro.
By then ABs will be on cruise control after 50 minutes of Farrell.

[OzT]

Could be interesting if Farrell does a JW and knows over 18 or 21 points for the English, be interesting then to finish the game with attacking half backs, quite a change from other sides shutting a game out!

[bluestonevedder]

Apparently Lawes in back in the fold for this weekend after playing for Saints this weekend? Heard it in an interview with SL on the RFU website for anyone that's interested.

[mystiroakey]

my score predo!

i think it will be a very tight 20 mins.

maybe 11-3 to NZ..

The thing is i feel that NZ are gonna have to not use there normally approach of a 20 minute burst to beat the team and then chill out for the rest when tey have enough points. I think england will prove to be to fit and strong for that and they will be going at us for a much longer period like they have to v Aus recently.

I think england will come back win on a kicking game by a point or two

[Bathman_in_London]

Interesting, although both the second rows played well against SA I thought so I don't know who he will replace unless its Botha on the bench.


Farrell and then Burns on when NZ have taken their foot off the pedal could be interesting. I can't help thinking that Burn's attacking style could work well with putting Manu into gaps if he's given a chance.

[bluestonevedder]

I would much rather see Lawes on the bench over Botha. Lawes would be a very good impact player.

I really just don't rate Botha at international level at all. His mistake on Saturday cemented that!

[gregortree]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU

How it used to be,
England No 10 chipping the AB defence for a try.
Come on Freddie !

[Bathman_in_London]

10 years ago I could have gone to that game, but ended up going to the OZ game, which was still a cracker, but I can't help feeling I missed out on seeing England beat NZ live. So I'm going this saturday and hopefully the 10 year cycle will come around again!

We certainly don't have the forwards to 'do a South Africa' and just grind NZ into submission, so there will need to be a spark from somewhere.

[gregortree]

1983 (I was there) 1993, 2003,...
....now let me see, what's next in that sequence ?

[Geordie]

Apparently Lawes in back in the fold for this weekend after playing for Saints this weekend? Heard it in an interview with SL on the RFU website for anyone that's interested.

Vedder,

Whilst Lawes and Launchbury would be my starting duo preferance...i dont see the point in rushing him back just for this game.

Let him recover and play for the Saints...ready for the 6n....and give the lads currently in the team another run. Our second rows were actually very good v SA.

[gregortree]

And 2002.
Very close match, but England made it.
Even with 2 extra minutes of 'Fergie Time' added for the ABs to do something.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFctRUpALko&feature=relmfu

[Bathman_in_London]

Well in fact we won in 2002 too, so that means we should be on for this saturday and then another away win when down to 13 in the summer!

[gregortree]

Bathman

[Bathman_in_London]

A thumbs up from a Glaws fan! You can tell England are playing!

Seriously though, that 2002 NZ was fairly weak and probably the best England team ever just beat them. Shows how consistently good NZ are.

[gregortree]

Batman
No hard feelings towards Bath. Went to the Rec a lot in the 90's with my young son when we initially moved to the W Country.

NZ
I recall we repeated the win away 2003. Beat NZ in NZ 'summer' 2003, even with 2 of the England pack sin binned /sent off.. have to look it up.

[disneychilly]

I wonder if Carter is being kept in cotton wool and Hansen will surprise everyone by naming him.

At least I hope that's what happens. Can imagine the English going from salivating at the thought of a third string 10 to "Oh sh*t" as the name of the best 10 in the world by a mile is read out.

England are for all their limitations (sorry if that sounds belittling or patronising) a bloody hard side to beat. Their defensive systems drag teams into arm wrestles and they have a very strong set piece. They are physical enough to make the gain line without the creativity other sides have, and if they keep a robust rush defence then they can pressure any team and penalise mistakes.

I don't see them scoring tries from phase or set play unless they are very patient-rather turnovers/intercepts and the like so if NZ play the percentages ie no missed passes which we have shown beautifully this tour then they should score a couple themselves. But discipline is crucial as well as set piece. England have a strong scrum and I feel a better one than ours so will attack. However the NZ lineout has been stellar recently and I'd pick NZ to shade that area.

We've never truly humiliated England in England. I was at the game in 06 where we did win at a canter but the Poms scored three tries. Either way McCaw will have a huge one as he's got a long break afterwards.

Either way let's have a great NZ performance to get people talking about our rugby instead of the other crap. We are masters of our own demise there and should make a statement on the field to show otherwise.

[bluestonevedder]

Apparently Lawes in back in the fold for this weekend after playing for Saints this weekend? Heard it in an interview with SL on the RFU website for anyone that's interested.

Vedder,

Whilst Lawes and Launchbury would be my starting duo preferance...i dont see the point in rushing him back just for this game.

Let him recover and play for the Saints...ready for the 6n....and give the lads currently in the team another run. Our second rows were actually very good v SA.

They would be my starting pairing too GF- thought both of them played excellently. My only concern is the second row bench cover. I would rather see Palmer there to be honest, with Botha no where near the team. I agree Lawes shouldn't be rushed back, and he should be given time to recover, but it's nice to know Lawes is close to being fully fit again.

[Bathman_in_London]

Batman
No hard feelings towards Bath. Went to the Rec a lot in the 90's with my young son when we initially moved to the W Country.

NZ
I recall we repeated the win away 2003. Beat NZ in NZ 'summer' 2003, even with 2 of the England pack sin binned /sent off.. have to look it up.

It was 15-13 I think, as you say, down to 13 for a time, Wilko kicked his goals and King Carlos missed a few, the rest is history!

[EnglishReign]

Batman
No hard feelings towards Bath. Went to the Rec a lot in the 90's with my young son when we initially moved to the W Country.

NZ
I recall we repeated the win away 2003. Beat NZ in NZ 'summer' 2003, even with 2 of the England pack sin binned /sent off.. have to look it up.

It was 15-13 I think, as you say, down to 13 for a time, Wilko kicked his goals and King Carlos missed a few, the rest is history!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGDivBtzfMM

[gregortree]

Thanks English, will check it later.
Or as Barbara once called it:

'Memories,
Like the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories
Of the way we were'

[disneychilly]

Batman
No hard feelings towards Bath. Went to the Rec a lot in the 90's with my young son when we initially moved to the W Country.

NZ
I recall we repeated the win away 2003. Beat NZ in NZ 'summer' 2003, even with 2 of the England pack sin binned /sent off.. have to look it up.

It was 15-13 I think, as you say, down to 13 for a time, Wilko kicked his goals and King Carlos missed a few, the rest is history!

Yup, Wilko gave an absolute lesson that day. Spencer missed four, two of which were easy for an international standard goalkicker. I was at a corner and I remember being behind Wilko as he lined one up at the other end in the swirling wind. The ball swung both ways and went right down the middle. Just a fantastic kick. I'm not going to go on about "We'd have won if Spencer could kick" because any team that can't take advantage of a 6 man scrum doesn't deserve to win the game.

[gregortree]

Spencer led a poor Haka, it went wrong from there.

[andyi]

England getting 16 or 17 point start on the handicaps.
Generous IMO. I'm on that in a big way.

I think the All blacks would be happy with a victory and wont start pi**ing about trying to get 4,5 or 6 and risking interceptions etc.

[Big]

A thumbs up from a Glaws fan! You can tell England are playing!

Seriously though, that 2002 NZ was fairly weak and probably the best England team ever just beat them. Shows how consistently good NZ are.

Hmmm... sort of. The only reason the scoreline was close was that England took their foot off the gas in the last 20 when they thought they'd got an unassailable lead. All credit to a young New Zealand side for taking advantage and getting back in the game it does show that they have always been dangerous if you give them the ball, but they'd have been massacred if England had really gone for it.

[EnglishReign]

SQUAD for Saturday:

Forwards (13)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
David Paice (London Irish)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (10)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

The following 11 players have been released back to their clubs:

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Tom Biggs (Bath Rugby)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

[dublin_dave]

England to play out of their skins but still lose by 7+ points for me.

The All Blacks ruthlessness will see them home with a scare or two along the way

[Geordie]

Wow Lawes is fit and picked....

We could get a glimpse of Launchbury and Lawes...which i think is finally giving us a top quality engine room..(especially if we can get Garvey on the bench )

Same team will start...bar Flood who will be replaced by Farrell to start.

PS I think this is the final nail in the EPS coffin for Botha, Dowson and a few others...

[gregortree]

31:69 or ~ 1:2. Sounds fair enough on the voting above.
Just give it a go England.. COME ON !

[yappysnap]

Wow Lawes is fit and picked....

We could get a glimpse of Launchbury and Lawes...which i think is finally giving us a top quality engine room..(especially if we can get Garvey on the bench )

Same team will start...bar Flood who will be replaced by Farrell to start.

PS I think this is the final nail in the EPS coffin for Botha, Dowson and a few others...

We'd all like to think that

As mentioned in another thread Lancaster will have a really good chance to get the media and public back onside with his EPS selections, if he goes for the young exciting inform players then I think we'll all quickly forget this Autumn, if he retains the likes of Botha and Dowson, Waldrom and Barritt then he could lose the last remains of his goodwill.

[Geordie]

Yeah your right Yappy a poor selection will truely end what ever is left of his honeymoon period.

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