The Open at The Old Course - how often?

Straightforward question which is often mentioned in passing on various threads (including mac's catastrophe thread), but don't think we've ever done a poll on it. How often should The Open be held on TOC?
- every year
- every 5 years
- every 10 years
- never
- other

Every 10 years for me - on years ending 1 - to avoid any 'bonus' years (for example 2021 will be the 150th Open Championship - pretty likely it'll be at TOC.

Ive gone other which would be probably every 15 years. But I wouldnt restrict the courses to being links so there would be more on the rota to accommodate.

Every 10 for me, keep a nod to history but also reduce the dreariness from 1 in 5 to 1 in 10. seriously when was the last time we had an exciting Sunday afternoon at a TOC Open?? Now ask the same question of Carnoustie and Turnberry.

i like the fact we have a guaranteed major on links. in the same way that tennis has its indoor / clay / grass / hardcourt for majors. not that this has to be at The Open each year.

watching monty claim first loser spot was pretty exciting

I'd go for every 15 years. Having it every 5 years is far too frequent if you want a quality event.

Rota list needs extended, and I wouldn't mind a few Heathland courses on there too, links can be very boring.

I have voted never. It is clear the time has come where the R&A are no longer responsible enough to balance the needs of the majority who play the course and an obsession with score in the majors. Get a new set of technical regulations and then I vote every 10 years or so. With new technical regulations so many courses could be added to the rota.

Mac, would you prefer F1 to have a Ford Cortina engine? Or football a lace up ball?

Technology happens, not the manufacturers fault if the courses become obsolete.

Could any of the other St Andrews courses host The Open, or are there no others in the town that could handle all the crowds etc?

New course could handle it and would be a better test, but like TOC would be poor for the crowd. A best alternative would be a combination of TOC, New and Jubilee.
The Castle would be outstanding, but again poor viewing potential.

Actually Super football has stayed incredibly true to its roots. Despite the fact that players are way way fitter and cover more ground and the ball flies further.
But the pitches aret he same size and the goals are the same size and same number of players are on the pitch.
In that respect the true nature of the game re the actual field of play remains untouched, same with rugby.For a supposedly traditional game golf has tinkered far more with the actual theatre the sport is played in than most other sports.

Yes they are Diggers, but boot and ball technology and rule changes have taken place. You still have to score a goal though, much like you still have to put a ball in the hole.

Times change, don't see anything wrong with how each game has progressed (apart from lots of modern day footballers being w@nkers)

I guess in one way it has changed is that we mere mortals arent really playing the same game as the pros anymore.
On the one hand you get to walk the same turf (depending on the course) as pro golfers which is great but now the courses are so long for the pros they are a completely different test than if you play them off normal tees.
Im sure this has always been the case but to a much lesser degree.
At least tennis, football etc is the same test in the sense that the actual pitch/court remains the same.

super_realist wrote:New course could handle it and would be a better test, but like TOC would be poor for the crowd. A best alternative would be a combination of TOC, New and Jubilee.
The Castle would be outstanding, but again poor viewing potential.

That's a pretty cool idea - a special "composite" course reserved for The Open.

Part of the reason for my question is that I expect quite a few people are a bit bored with TOC given its starring role in the Alfred Dunhill Links every year as well as The Open every 5. However, I suspect that the amateur players in particular really enjoy the experience and I wouldn't feel strongly enough to change that situation.

So considering what to do about overuse of TOC for The Open, I would have thought that a large part of the "history" argument could be addressed through using some of the other St Andrews courses (and I'd probably prefer to chuck them into the rotation like others - so perhaps one Open in St Andrews every 8-10 years?), but appreciate that the infrastructure issue is a difficult one to address.

St Andrews is the home of golf, the HQ of the R&A, and the most famous course in the world.

If people didn't like it, they wouldn't line up to pay huge amounts to play it, and turn up in record numbers to watch St Andrews Opens.

It's all very well for people to say it's boring, old fashioned and doesn't produce good Opens, but the reality is different.

New courses have been introduced to host the Open over the years, and no doubt will again, but that doesn't mean the Old Course will drop off the rota any time soon.

George1507 wrote:St Andrews is the home of golf, the HQ of the R&A, and the most famous course in the world.

If people didn't like it, they wouldn't line up to pay huge amounts to play it, and turn up in record numbers to watch St Andrews Opens.

It's all very well for people to say it's boring, old fashioned and doesn't produce good Opens, but the reality is different.

New courses have been introduced to host the Open over the years, and no doubt will again, but that doesn't mean the Old Course will drop off the rota any time soon.

The reality isn't different. People don't pay to play it because it's an amazing course, as I already said most visitors I play with come off rather underwhelmed because it is ordinary and lacks a challenge, and it also hasn't produced any significant event since Rocca holed his putt on 18 after duffing it way back in 1995. People love to play it because of the history. That's it.
As I've said before it isn't even the best course in St.Andrews.

It also isn't huge amounts of money. It costs more to play Kingsbarns just along the road and The Castle is very nearly the same price.

It was £150 to play on the Old Course this summer. I'd say that's a lot, although I appreciate some people might not agree.

Well it's a lot of money for that course, but people are paying it because of the history, once you are past the first hole, there is nothing to grab you until 17.

Went for 'Other' thinking of maybe every 15 years or so. Played TOC twice so far and felt underwhelmed on both occasions tbh. As S_R said, glad to have played it for the history, 17th tee shot, Swilken Bridge pose etc but otherwise? Not sure it's that great and for £150 now, I doubt I'll ever play it again.

One thing that would make the pros life a bit more difficult at TOC is if they weren't able to blast the ball off at 45° cf. the direction that's intended from a tee in order to miss a big bunker etc. If they could prevent the deliberate avoidance of the fairway that was intended, I would think it'd become more of a test. Can't see that happening though.

I can never understand why all those folk who say they are interested in the history of golf chose Stan Drews over Mussleburgh/Prestwick/Perth etc.

That's it Navy, if you want you can hit it as far left as you like for the front nine, and the same for most of the back nine, make other fairways out of play/OOB and you've got a far more difficult course.

Gone for every ten.

Every 5 is too frequent and blocks the other courses on the rota too much but I buy into the history element and think it should return regularly. I like the tying in with anniversaries idea of Barra too.

In terms of the dreariness it throws up I don't see why it should be dreary. Surely the top golfers should all be able to score similarly and make the relative scoring and therefore the tournament exciting regardless of the result to par.

Never played there so forgive the naivety, but if it is keep left off the tee and there's massive room the simple OOB left idea seems to work (even if it is not de rigeur to have internal OOB anymore). Can they not simply grow more rough too?

what does DOAK make of internal OOB?

Roller_Coaster wrote:Gone for every ten.

Every 5 is too frequent and blocks the other courses on the rota too much but I buy into the history element and think it should return regularly. I like the tying in with anniversaries idea of Barra too.

In terms of the dreariness it throws up I don't see why it should be dreary. Surely the top golfers should all be able to score similarly and make the relative scoring and therefore the tournament exciting regardless of the result to par.

Never played there so forgive the naivety, but if it is keep left off the tee and there's massive room the simple OOB left idea seems to work (even if it is not de rigeur to have internal OOB anymore). Can they not simply grow more rough too?

In terms of the dreariness I just think back to Oustie, Tiger & eh Tiger coming down the stretch on Sunday afternoon and entering the back 9 with a 2 or more shot lead and it's game over maybe 1 hole to get a wee bit nervy about but that's it, whereas at Carnoustie, going into the back 9 on Sunday with a 2 shot cushion is nothing, infact going into the last 3, 2 shots is nothing (even the last 1 if you're French). The last 2 finishes at Carnoustie have been as exciting as the Open gets, obviously an element of that is down to the characters involved but a lot of it is down to the course and what it's doing to the head of the leaders.

Voted to keep the once every 5 years, but purely for selfish reasons! As an Aberdeen resident, it's the second easiest one on the rota for me to get to as a spectator (after Carnoustie). So every 5 years is great for me! Admittedly it's not the greatest viewing course, but hey, I enjoy visiting for the Open nontheless.

Putting my ease of access aside, I'd accept that it probably SHOULD move to very 10 years.

JAS wrote:

Roller_Coaster wrote:Gone for every ten.

Every 5 is too frequent and blocks the other courses on the rota too much but I buy into the history element and think it should return regularly. I like the tying in with anniversaries idea of Barra too.

In terms of the dreariness it throws up I don't see why it should be dreary. Surely the top golfers should all be able to score similarly and make the relative scoring and therefore the tournament exciting regardless of the result to par.

Never played there so forgive the naivety, but if it is keep left off the tee and there's massive room the simple OOB left idea seems to work (even if it is not de rigeur to have internal OOB anymore). Can they not simply grow more rough too?

In terms of the dreariness I just think back to Oustie, Tiger & eh Tiger coming down the stretch on Sunday afternoon and entering the back 9 with a 2 or more shot lead and it's game over maybe 1 hole to get a wee bit nervy about but that's it, whereas at Carnoustie, going into the back 9 on Sunday with a 2 shot cushion is nothing, infact going into the last 3, 2 shots is nothing (even the last 1 if you're French). The last 2 finishes at Carnoustie have been as exciting as the Open gets, obviously an element of that is down to the characters involved but a lot of it is down to the course and what it's doing to the head of the leaders.

Having said that Jas,

Had it been neck and neck down the straight at ST Andrews, you could have various scenarios down the last 2 holes ie Bogey/Par finish or birdie/eagle finish etc. Only been dreary because we have had runaway winners. Not really the courses fault. If they all found it easy they'd all be 18 under down the stretch. Same at Carnoustie, they've been lucky its been tight down the stretch. But does it matter if a par beats a bogey rather than birdie beating par?

Wellsaid Spaceman.

I don't get this poor finishing hole at St Andrews.
It is drivable on occasions so a two is possible.
The Valley of Sin comes into play on the final day pin position so the player has 'the play safe or go for a birdie' thought. Quite easy to three putt from the back of the green.

THing about TOC is that if there's a runaway leader after 2 and a half rounds, there's very little he can do to throw it away or have it taken off him.
Round 4 is effectively a precession unless the wind blows

No it doesn't matter whether its birdie or par or bogey but when you're coming down the stretch and you see the leader board there's a bit more of a certainty about what you need to do and an easier chance of doing it if you've got a 1-2 shot cushion. You can afford to play 17 safe (accepting perhaps a bogey, knowing a par or better is a virtual certainty up the last) whereas at Carnoustie, doubles are lurking all over the closing holes and its a lot more difficult to even play safe.

10 years for me, even with all the history i find watching on tv extremely dull. Probably the only time i don't tune in until the last few holes for a major.

Know what your saying Jas, but I find trying to par you way in pretty boring too. I think luck has more to do with how exciting a finish is rather than the course. Look at probably the best duel at Turnberry with Nicklaus and Watson. Would that have been as exciting with a 'par in to win' finish?

Doon the Water wrote:I can never understand why all those folk who say they are interested in the history of golf chose Stan Drews over Mussleburgh/Prestwick/Perth etc.

Good point re. the history. Would love to play them if I get the chance.

From a selfish and purely curious standpoint I would like the see the open played at more fine courses throughout the UK. Surely Wentworth, Sunningdale or Walton Heath have the infrastructure to host properly.

Love a links course, but if the wind is down defense is mostly gone. It would also be great to see some inland gems mixed in the rotation.

Perth?

I agree Shot that it isn't necessary to play on Links, sadly the R & A will never see it that way. So many incredible courses in the UK that never get showcased.

Perth North Inch was one of the first places recorded for the playin o'gowf.

I probably should have mentioned Leith links in the earlier post.

Bit of a cowp though Doon, but I get where you're coming from.

Not too many exciting Open's lately. But I guess it also comes down to who's involved. But yes, TOC is rather boring to watch.

I voted every 10 years and I also agree we should see a greater variety of courses, and not only links courses.

I'm not sure on this...taking it away from Links idea. Links courses at their baked hard July best are the ultimate test of a golfers ability to control a ball with a mixture of pure technique and shot creation imagination. Besides the pros have parkland fodder 40 odd weeks of the year.

Ok so if they did decide to dilute the claret in the jug...where is capable of holding it (you'd have to rule out Wentworth as it already has a big tourney. Sunningdale Old? OK the Seniors went there 3 years ago but would it be long enough to present a decent test for the worlds best? Sunningdale New? possibly a better option than the Old as from memory there are probably more options to take it to the required length. Woodhall Spa? Ganton? Where else?

I would sell the hosting of the open to Trumpton for £50 million per event held.

The r and a are hardly potless Mac.

McLaren wrote:I would sell the hosting of the open to Trumpton for £50 million per event held.

You're such a WUM sometimes Mac. You'd supposedly like the most prestigious tournament in the golfing world hosted on a course that a) you don't rate and b) you detest everything about its creation.....and you're rationale for the complete U turn is????

His rationale Jas is that he doesn't want the world's most outdated and over rated Course to be shown up as the worn out, unchallenging and unfit for Major Championship course it currently is, and that changes which may or may not help make it more interesting might ruin his enjoyment of the course when he can save up enough pocket money to play it once a decade.

Ironically I think Trump Int'l could be good enough one day soon. I think it would be pretty good for spectators too. Interesting to see what happens next regarding hotel and clubhouse etc.

Places like Sunningdale, Walton Heath and Ganton don't have even close to the infrastructure required for an Open. Wentworth hosts a couple of events every year, and is close to bursting with the PGA Championship.

Links courses provide good watching because there aren't many trees to obstruct the view, and getting around is easy. Wentworth is stuffed with houses and it's hard for spectators to wander about because you are hemmed in between trees and houses.

George - Surprised to hear that. With two courses I would think Walton Heath would absolutely have the space necessary for the infrastructure requirements. My course had 45,000 spectators a day for a professional tournament and it takes up less space than Walton Heath. If they can hold a US Open at Merion (limited ticket sales to be sure) they can do just about anything!

The Ryder Cup was held at Walton Heath in the 1980s. There was a composite course made up of holes from the two courses. Spectating wasn't good though and there were a couple of huge bottlenecks. Walton Heath isn't used for any pro events now - it's limited to qualifiers for the Open and US Open I think.

Egress issues or bottlenecks can usually be worked out (we had to re-route traffic mid tournament). Would spectating be bad because of the relatively flat layout? I would think with the proximity to London this event would have super attendance almost regardless of the ticket prices. Love to see those professionals take on that heather.

George1507 wrote:The Ryder Cup was held at Walton Heath in the 1980s. There was a composite course made up of holes from the two courses. Spectating wasn't good though and there were a couple of huge bottlenecks. Walton Heath isn't used for any pro events now - it's limited to qualifiers for the Open and US Open I think.

The Senior Open was held there last year (using composite course I think). Very pleasant spectating experience, but that's partly because numbers were relatively low compared to BMW PGA or The Open proper.

I remembered writing something on the old 606 about trumpton and the open. so decided to try and find it.

To my surprise it seems a blogger stole my article and posted it as their own.

My original

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A74361611

(also had i edited it properly it would have read goofy set up at winged foot, and not make it seem like I think winged foot is a goofy course)

then this cheeky imp re posts it;

http://intotherough.blogspot.com.au/2010/09/donald-saviour-of-classics-trump.html

I wonder how often articles are stolen from 606v2, especially the decent one's like kwini's?


Anyway, back to the hosting of the open. I think my point from 2010 still stands in that there is no reason to begin to alter the playing characteristics of the classic courses for the sake of pro golf. For this reason - as much as i would like to see it happen - i would have to oppose hosting the open on the classic heathland courses.

I would rather see the open played at the Belfry than have the current scenario where TOC is butchered because mcilroy went 63-80. I wonder, will they make the holes where he took double on his way to an 80 easier?