Who should be England's long term partner in the centre with Manu and why isn't he being blooded now?

Barritt reminds me a bit of Henson in the way he just shifts the ball on, often to a player with less space than he was in. He rarely looks for space and therefore adds little in attack but is solid in defence.

I know Hipkiss didn't wow in the England shirt but could he along side Manu? Is 36 ready and would he complement Manu? Is Barkely too old?

This England team show great promise across the park but I feel the answer to better execution is surely a midfield with more threat, meaning defences must spread themselves which will obviously allow Manu more space. I think this is the vital last piece of the jigsaw but who is it?

I hate the term 'blooded'. It does nothing to disassociate rugby from 'sports' percieved to be the preserve of the upper classes.

Please only comment on the subject of the thread and keep your insecurities to yourself.

36, and Barritt obsession is keeping 36 out for now.
It will pass.

I haven't seen that much of 36. Is he a line breaker? What are his best qualities?

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Please only comment on the subject of the thread and keep your insecurities to yourself.

Ha, I think you may have used the wrong word there. In fact I know you have, and to think that a Thesaurus is so easily accessible online these days.

I think the problem was that although 36 *may* be ready now, he certainly wasn't before the SA tour. As such, Barritt was the man in possession and there were plenty of other newbies being played in other positions. As such, 36 has missed out. I reckon we are likely to see him in the 6 nations.

Personally I would have played Allen, but there are plenty of people that disagree with that and it's certainly not clear cut.

Apart from 36 and Allen, who else is there really? Hipkiss is a bit old (30) and not really good enough (though I did always like him as a player). Barkley is a bit flakey and again a bit old (31 today - happy birthday Olly!).

The future at 12 is either 36, Allen or someone who isn't really on the radar yet. Another option is to put Burns there.

Any of these options may happen for the 6 nations, but there were so many changes before these AIs that I doubt Lancaster fancied changing 12 too. Barritt defends very well and is not useless in attack. I'm not a big fan, but he has done a job for now. Remember, the goal is to win the world cup in 2015 - we don't want to rush and cause another Tait or Allen (first time around). Both those players were badly set back from being selected too early.

36: tall elegant but tough centre. Well balanced runner
(randomly: his stature reminds me a little of my beloved West Ham's Brooking in his prime)
Good pass, fair step, might be more a Greenwood/ Guscott type, not a bish bosh type like Tui.

addabs, I agree with you about the SA tour, but surely Lancaster should be trying out different combinations now rather than during the 6N as Barritt is doing a job but is surely not part of our 2015 master plan.

gregortree wrote:36: tall elegant but tough centre. Well balanced runner
(randomly: his stature reminds me a little of my beloved West Ham's Brooking in his prime)
Good pass, fair step, might be more a Greenwood/ Guscott type, not a bish bosh type like Tui.

Does he really have the vision and elusiveness of Greenwood or Guscott?

Barritt isn't injured though, so EPS rules mean Lancaster can't replace him yet.

Twelvetrees is the English centre that has impressed me the most and looks to have the most potential. I don't get the obsession with Tuilagi - one dimensional. Top class international centres need to have a bit more than route one.

England made a lot of progress in the last two matches, if you can settle on the best 8, 10, 12 and 13 then I can see England really doing well.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:addabs, I agree with you about the SA tour, but surely Lancaster should be trying out different combinations now rather than during the 6N as Barritt is doing a job but is surely not part of our 2015 master plan.

Too any changes all at once. We had a new hooker (youngs), fairly new prop (Marler), a new 2nd row (eventually Launchbury), new wing (sharples) and on top of this, apart from Flood noone has many caps at all. Maybe in Lancaster's mind a new centre was too much? He still isn't sure on his best pack and conventional wisdom says that you should sort the pack first. Personally, I would have put 36 on the bench for the first two games and see how he went for 20 minutes (maybe more vs Fiji), but I can see why he didn't too.

[quote="Does he really have the vision and elusiveness of Greenwood or Guscott?[/quote]

We will not know yet.

Offload, for me 8 Morgan, 10 Flood, 13 Tuilagi are nailed down leaving 12 vacant.

SL is doing just fine. He will chop and change for the 6N; I imagine we'll see 36, Wade and S Armitage brought in, with Burns retaining his place.

As a neutral, I honestly believe that the obsession with Manu is hobbling a proper England backline from developing.

Tualagi is a blunt tool which can be very effective but he cannot look up and distribute in a way that modern centres need to I know that he's a youngfeller but I just can't see how this develop enough for him to be an international quality 12. He would, however, be an excellent winger and if instructed to pop into the attacking line at will then he will use his strengths whilst minimising his weaknesses.

In terms of who should be in midfield, it seems to depend at the moment whether Lancaster is content to have good defensive centres with no particular cutting edge or whether SL is content to risk leaking points for players who may score more. I would give 23 and Hopper (incredibly underrated) a blast just to see how they would go. They are certainly more likely to score than the past few combinations.

Manu really isnt suited to 12. Hes most effective with a bit of space and not just being told to rumble up the middle. If we accept that hes the only center England have unearthed in x million years that actually looks like something special (flaws aside) then he has to be in, and in at 13.

trouble is Lancaster seems to think the only other center worth his salt is JJ ...who clearly is only ever going to play 13 or wing.

The other option, and the "next in line" in the EPS is Bill Twelvetrees. That is the combination that offers a variety of threats in their natural position.

However the coaches clearly believe that either Manu can play 12 and/or that Barrit is doing a great job. Youd kind of assume they had their reasosns for thinking that

George Carlin wrote:As a neutral, I honestly believe that the obsession with Manu is hobbling a proper England backline from developing.

Tualagi is a blunt tool which can be very effective but he cannot look up and distribute in a way that modern centres need to I know that he's a youngfeller but I just can't see how this develop enough for him to be an international quality 12. He would, however, be an excellent winger and if instructed to pop into the attacking line at will then he will use his strengths whilst minimising his weaknesses.

In terms of who should be in midfield, it seems to depend at the moment whether Lancaster is content to have good defensive centres with no particular cutting edge or whether SL is content to risk leaking points for players who may score more. I would give 23 and Hopper (incredibly underrated) a blast just to see how they would go. They are certainly more likely to score than the past few combinations.

You see I disagree. Tuilagi looks better at Leicester where he has Allen inside him creating opportunities. Tuilagi needs to work on his distribution, but I think it is better than we have seen in the England set up. He requires a creative 12 to play with him and Barritt, for all his defensive qualities and surprisingly good hands doesn't really create much.

Tuilagi has a good turn of pace and will take other players on going round as well as over them. England just need to find a way to put him in space, and yes, for England he should perhaps pass earlier on occasion - but this is often overstated, he's not as bad as made out.

screamingaddabs wrote: I'm not a big fan, but he has done a job for now. Remember, the goal is to win the world cup in 2015 - we don't want to rush and cause another Tait or Allen (first time around). Both those players were badly set back from being selected too early.

the flip side of that is why if we are building for the world cup now persist with a platyer who isnt ever goign to be the answer just because hes doing a job now?
As for being worried about blooding players....thats hardly something Lanacaster has shied away from. Twelevetrees is 24 now, hes entered his theoretical peak years ...hes not a raw 21 year old like Owen Farrell or Manu Tuilagi.

I'd go for the following in the mid term (6 nations time):

9. Care/Youngs
10. Flood/Burns
11. Foden/May
12. 36
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Goode

with the first names selected to start and the second on the bench.

This gives 3 creative options for 1st reciever (Flood, 36, Goode), two excellent finishers/runners on the wings (Ashton, Foden), a back three that I am confident in covering kicks well, two big men to go through the line (Tuilagi and Ashton) and all are good defenders.

If 36 is injured I'd choose Allen, if Goode or Foden or Ashton are injured in comes Brown, if Flood is injured then Burns starts and in comes Farrell, if Tuilagi is injured then in comes JJ.

Well Wales have been running a limited bosh merchant at 12 for years and there are few complaints. Roberts has been very effective at times, although given his intelligence it would be nice to see more variety.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote: I'm not a big fan, but he has done a job for now. Remember, the goal is to win the world cup in 2015 - we don't want to rush and cause another Tait or Allen (first time around). Both those players were badly set back from being selected too early.

the flip side of that is why if we are building for the world cup now persist with a platyer who isnt ever goign to be the answer just because hes doing a job now?
As for being worried about blooding players....thats hardly something Lanacaster has shied away from. Twelevetrees is 24 now, hes entered his theoretical peak years ...hes not a raw 21 year old like Owen Farrell or Manu Tuilagi.

Yeah, that's a fair point. As I said, I wouldn't start Barritt myself.

What about Farrell/Burns at 10 and shift Flood to 12?

Unfortunately without Flood and Foden the backline just looks ineffectual in attack - lacking in guile, pace and handling skills. Any tries on sat, if any, will come through the pack or SH. Flood needs to stop getting injured, Burns needs to be slowly brought in and we need a back 3 with pace.

Is it actually as long ago as Greenwood that we had a half decent 12?

I've been trying to think of a good one:

Flutey - meh, good on his day
Hape - pants
Arinle - Whooops!
Farrell - temporary
Barritt - Not quite good enough
Barkley - Flakey and injured
???

who else? My memory is poor!

Barritt is seen as safe. That isnt always the best thing. 36 is around the main squad now and should (injuries willing) be around for the 6N. As far as I can see he has very much been a work in progress for a while now. Players breaking in to the national team at 20 should be exceptional rather than the norm

lostinwales wrote:Well Wales have been running a limited bosh merchant at 12 for years and there are A few complaints.... .

Fixed that, 'A' was missing.

You see i have no issues with Tuilagi.

You need a powerhouse in there. And i think hes getting a raw deal on his passing. He can pass...its just 9/10 for England theres no point passing to people as they'll get hammered or go nowhere.

Now whilst ive been a big supporter of Barritt...i dont think really has had a chance to show what he can do offensively and probably still hasnt...im beginning to reduce my support a little. I do think we need something a little more in there now.

And i like everyone else has been hugely impressed with Twelvetrees. I would be looking to put him in the EPS in January.

There have been people saying that its down to him that Burns has looked as good as he has. And he is strong in defence also.

Gloucester players seem to get a raw deal when it comes to England...maybe its time to include them in the England selections....

GeordieFalcon wrote:You see i have no issues with Tuilagi.

Gloucester players seem to get a raw deal when it comes to England...maybe its time to include them in the England selections....

Geordie

screamingaddabs wrote:Is it actually as long ago as Greenwood that we had a half decent 12?

I've been trying to think of a good one:

Flutey - meh, good on his day
Hape - pants
Arinle - Whooops!
Farrell - temporary
Barritt - Not quite good enough
Barkley - Flakey and injured
???

who else? My memory is poor!

21 People have started tests for England in the Centre since Greenwood retired. In many ways rather an uninspiring list:

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=starting_matches;position=3;position_category=2;spanmax1=28+Nov+2012;spanmin1=28+Nov+2004;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=player

The stats do show how dangerous Tuilagi is though. 8 tries from 16 matches is a long way ahead of anyone else on that list

Part of me gets frustrated with tuilagi, but part of me thinks he's too dangerous to exclude.

The way England play the game ehsewhere there seems little point in removing Manu. Sure it is frustrating that he does not pass much - but when you look how slow the ball has been the wingers are well marked anyway.

If we win quicker ball and are able to create space and overlaps and he continues just to bosh it....If we have runners on his shoulder and he continues to go to ground rather than make the offload... if those things happen then we should be shot of him.

However for so long as we continue to play a slow paced, one-dimensional game we need him as there is little threat from anyone else.

Why not put Tuilagi on the wing and partner 36 with JJ
Goode is another possibility for 12

LT - I agree

rosbif - Not awful ideas. I just think that Manu is far more of a 13 than an 11. Ask those at Welford road week in week out and I think they agree.

Goode at 12 is interesting. I know he was a ten, has he played 12 before? Personally I really like him at 15 but it's an option worth discussing.

Goode has the skillset for 12 - and was something I suggested in the Summer. However you need to be playing there for your club.


As to Joseph playing - well we shall see. He is one of those players whose reputation has grown this autumn primarily by not being involved with the current stodge. As I have seen so very little of him, I cannot really comment.

Yes but Sarries arent going to take barritt out of 12 to let Goode play there...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes but Sarries arent going to take barritt out of 12 to let Goode play there...

Indeed so that should make it a non-starter.

What gives me hope is we are starting to sort out the pack - as lets face it most backs can look good if the pack put them on the front foot.

Absloutely LT...the pack had a much better look about it. I still would like to see the forwards running from a little deeper...really hitting some pace before taking the ball...but with regards to all else...there are around 4/5 players that could make the bones of a crackin pack.

Aye, we do still have too many people who take the ball standing still and then start running. If I was being mean I would suggest they are too thick to concentrate on more than two things at once - and breathing takes up one of those slots.

LT you are a one !

Totally agree Barney, i think people don't quite realise how much we miss Foden. Not just for his work at the back but him joining the line, he always carries the ball in 2 hands, straightens the line and then times the pass well. His link work with Ashton is also exceptional and i think his absence from the team hasn't helped him get back on the score sheet.

And in general, he is very fast and very strong and gives us good go forward ball. He was in cracking form for Saints as well before he got crocked.

screamingaddabs wrote:Is it actually as long ago as Greenwood that we had a half decent 12?

I've been trying to think of a good one:

Flutey - meh, good on his day
Hape - pants
Arinle - Whooops!
Farrell - temporary
Barritt - Not quite good enough
Barkley - Flakey and injured
???

who else? My memory is poor!

Flutey had a couple of seasons of being very good and got called up at the end of that. Got injured and went downhill quickly.
twelvetrees is a fairly similar player, a 10 type 12 with some physicality too.

Erinle .... his greatest moment was get mistaken by a TV pundit for Ugo Monye when the Lions squad was announced ( I mean they both have African names right)

Farrell...is not a modern international 12. No running game at all.

Hape..underated, but had more bad games than good. England fans had it in for him before he was picked.

Barrit ...agree, Hape without the jazz hands

Barkley ...another "look youre a fly half not a 12" and he had a serious attitude problem.

Flood...just not enough physicality for a 12, became a good 10 where he can best use his core attributes...which is why Johnson picked him at 12 again I guess.

Noon..."On his day he could beat anyone" I honestly beleive he was a better player than his contributions for England suggested. Missused and part of some of Englands worst displays

Farrel snr...yeah apparently injuries can rob players of their best

Sam Vesty...Going from 4th choice club fullback to international satrting center in 18 months was never going to end well. Joining Bath the final humiliation. To be fair it was the Lions year joke sqaud.

Tom May ...see above

Tindall...well at least it meant he wasnt playing 13 *shrug*

Banahan...donkey. Not a good idea, the poor mans Hape. Subtlety of an Andrew Hore pullback.

Hipkiss...shoudlve and mostly did play 13. See Manu. Too many bad inuuries ruined his career, had been picked out as a model professional when he was younger. Quite unique ability to tie up defenders and stay on his feet and push through.

JTH ... Barrit on acid. Theres still time, but one of englands centers needs to be a distributor.



So there we go...greatest test 12 to have palyed for england post greenwood ...Mike Catt. Youd think hed be capable of teaching someone to pass.

LondonTiger wrote:Aye, we do still have too many people who take the ball standing still and then start running. ...

Too true. I made some rather pointed comments about that in the pub during the game on Saturday (a couple of the locals winced at the observation too)

On the centre issue, i think Tuilagi is our main threat and probably who most opposition teams worry about, meaning he has to stay in.

36 should start at 12 for me, he offers exactly what Barritt does and then some, solid in defence, can crash it up if needs be and he has a decent step and pace. Added to that, he is a great passer of the ball and has a boot like a cannon, he also rucks incredibly well. Pretty sure he is top of the Gloucester turnover list too!

JJ should start on the bench as cover for wingers and also as a different option at 13 should we need it. He is very good and does the basics very well. I remember in SA he did something that i have yet to see another england centre do. Take the ball run straight at the defender and then pop out a nice flat pass for Foden or Ashton.

His link work with Ashton is also exceptional and i think his absence from the team hasn't helped him get back on the score sheet.

If he can only score when Foden is there....England, Sarries and Fodens lass have problems....

Aye, we do still have too many people who take the ball standing still and then start running. If I was being mean I would suggest they are too thick to concentrate on more than two things at once - and breathing takes up one of those slots..

Its not difficult to just stand that little bit back and really hit the line at your fastest..a little bit of timing is all that is required...or are England coaches asking them to stand soo flat?

Does partly depend on how slow your ball is, how offside the opposition are, and how "flat" the passing is

The odd thing is seeing guys like Youngs, Marler, Robshaw etc doing that. They NEVER do that for their clubs. So why in an Eng shirt?

Oh and I think we'll see quite a lot of experimentation next summer when everyone forgets Eng are playing because the Lions is on.

I'd like to see for at least one game against Argentina:

9. Care/Youngs (one at least will probably be a Lion)
10. Burns (if not a Lion, Flood will be a Lion)
11. Wade
12. Twelvetrees
13. Lowe (Manu will be a Lion)
14. May
15. Brown