Red Card! Really?!?!?

I am not normally one for bashing referees, as it is a tough job and a thankless task at times. But.....


How on gods green earth is this tackle a red card???

Spoiler:

Utter nonsense from JP Doyle who should hang his head in shame. 10 minutes into a crucial match for both teams. I really hope the referee review people have a good hard look at this and other similar decisions and issue some guidance. If that is a red card offence then we may as well be playing tag!!!

I can't view the pic oz?

Try this sheephead...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kww0doBHy_o

I can only assume Doyle and his AR deemed it to be a tip tackle. As far as I can see the hips are never above the shoulders - while even if they are he is never more than about 2ft above the ground.

I guess that's what they decided LT, but I can't help thinking that he has refereed the player rather than the actual tackle. Very frustrating when we are scrapping for our Premiership lives at the wrong end of the table.

When I saw it was Hala'ufia sent off I was looking for a high tackle, so had to re-run the tape a few times. Sometimes it can be hard to separate the reputation a player brings with them - but we rightly expect top flight refs to do that.

Do you think that was on rep or just that the ref and TJ saw feet flying in the air?

Very difficult to pick the bones from that even on the replay let alone in real time for the ref, no?

tip tackle clear as day - legs go above head, driven into the ground.

There are a few telling things MrsP.

1. Hala'ufia clearly hits the player in the midrift, so there is little chance that he has lifted him.
2. He knocks him a good yard back indicating that he has come straight through rather than driving the player upwards.
3. The players lands shoulders first but Chris still has him wrapped up in the tackle and lands with him.

It's clear from that that his legs go up simply from the momentum of Chris smashing him backwards.

My view is that he's seen legs go up, seen it's Chris and decided that it must have been a naughty one and sent him off. Whatever his rationale it is a shocking decision.

If the legs go above the head then its the tacklers responsibility to put him on the ground safely he did not

Maybe the law needs to be reviewed but under the rules as they are now that is a red card.

Nonsense TJ. he drives straight through and goes to ground with the players whose legs go up from being knocked back in the tackle.

I know what you are saying Ozzy but remember John Afoa tackle from the HEC quarters last season?

There are never 2 indentical tackles, despite what some say, but there are similarities. And though Afoa was not penalised on the pitch he got a 4 week ban.

Small margins.

In this case it has had a huge effect on the game.

Read the laws.

"Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

A directive was issued to all Unions and Match Officials in 2009 emphasizing the IRB’s zero-tolerance stance towards dangerous tackles and reiterating the following instructions for referees:

- The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared’ into the ground (red card offence)

- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety (red card offence) ."

You may think the laws are wrong, the ref probably applied them with a very strict definition but its clear that if the tackled players is tipped like that the tackler is responsible for putting him on the ground safely

The player's body is never tipped beyond horizontal. Looking at the guidlines given to refs including the videos it seems it has been deemed almost impossible to commit a tip tackle when the tackler is moving at speed.

Where did Hala'ufia lift him TJ?

He drives straight through the tackle and the momentum of knocking the top half of the ball carriers body back whilst he is running forwards sees his feet go up. it is not a lift, therefore we do not even get past the first word of the Law 10.4(j).

TJ wrote:Read the laws.

"Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

Hala'ufia does not lift him. He strikes him in the midriff and drives him backwards but his body is not lifted.

A directive was issued to all Unions and Match Officials in 2009 emphasizing the IRB’s zero-tolerance stance towards dangerous tackles and reiterating the following instructions for referees:

- The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared’ into the ground (red card offence)

The player was neither lifted nor driven into the ground.

I really think they need to have a serious look at the difference between lifting a player up and driving a player so his feet come off the ground.

The bottom line should be player safety but there is a difference albeit not one that is in any way easy for the officials to spot mid game in real time.

We have seen every out come from clear reds described as such and given yellows to good hard tackles given reds and good hard tackles given nothng and then a ban.

Afoa's ban was actually 7 weeks but since he had never had a card of any colour in his entire pro career before it was reduced to 4.

I would like to see that from as many angles as possible and as slowly as possible before I would even hazard a guess as to what the panel will make of it.

Haha check you three out! Funny how ozzy's opinion is so different when his team is on the receiving end.

OK, I'm only viewing the incident on a phone. Was CH given the card for a tip tackle, which it wasn't. Or was it because it looked like he went in with the forehead first - it looked like a reckless challenge to me, but I've only seen it on a small screen.

How is my opinion different Morg? I didn't think any of the tackles in Wales defeat to Samoa warranted a red card, and I don't think this one did either. Not sure as to how my opinion is different, but thanks for your input.

As in your perspective changes when your team is on the receiving end, but happy to see Wales suffer thuggish attacks (who on this forum isn't?). It's only now, all of a sudden the rules need a review as opposed to a few weeks ago. Oh my.

Cheers oz. I'll have a check in a bit. On another subject. Your guys signed a young flanker named Siggery in the summer, seen much of him?

And OZ, to be honest with you, I thought this a good tackle and not an offence. That tip tackle rule has been bugging me for a while now.

Nowhere near a red, or a card! I've seen some of his sending offs and he can dish out some punishment, but in this case what was the linesman watching? If that's red you should see at least one a game...

My perspective hasn't changed Morg, and I have not said the laws need changing. I have said the referee has failed to correctly apply the law as there was no lift, therefore it cannot be a tip tackle.

In the other game that you refer to, the referee correctly applied the laws and did not penalise tackles that you feel were worthy of being penalised.

Not sure where my perspective has changed there mate.

sheephead, we signed him summer 2011 and he was with us last season but got released at the end of last season when we got a new DoR.

Ahh pity. Cheers mate. He played for my local club and was wondering how he was doing.

Jewall seemed to get hit straight across and landed on the flat of his back. The force of the tackle meant his legs went in the air but his body wasn't tilted at all.

We really need to be able to go to the TMO for things like this. That was a good trial. It's very easy for split second things to appear different from the ref point of view. Especially for technical infringements like this. He landed on his neck/upper back then I would say yellow. If he landed on his neck/upper back AND was dropped/driven into the ground then red. Neither of these things happend

Morgannwg wrote:As in your perspective changes when your team is on the receiving end, but happy to see Wales suffer thuggish attacks (who on this forum isn't?). It's only now, all of a sudden the rules need a review as opposed to a few weeks ago. Oh my.

Morg, that's some complex, lad

We need video refs at all games. The scheduling of televised games is basically having a huge impact on the results of some games and not on others. It is a bit of a farce really. Although the correct decision, we would have beaten Quins if that match had not been televised, and would have beaten Welsh if that one had been televised. With where we are in the table these small margins could have a huge impact. Get video refs at every game and then things are fair.

SirBurger, I think you have a good case for a TMO and tV cameras at all grounds. The current situation I think affects the bottom end of the table more adversely than the top end, as games between two top half teams get the coverage. Not a level playing field

Sheephead.

Ed Siggery is back playing at the House of Pain.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:SirBurger, I think you have a good case for a TMO and tV cameras at all grounds. The current situation I think affects the bottom end of the table more adversely than the top end, as games between two top half teams get the coverage. Not a level playing field

Although it was the TMO who decided that Banahan should be sent off - and I have to say I reckon that was harsh.

Still peeved that the only way I could find out what was going on was to check the tigers twitter feed from my phone. Would it really cost us that much to install a big screen? Or failing that some announcement over the tannoy as to what is happening. Second half took over an hour to complete with TMO decisions (and Allen being stretchered off) - there was too much time when the 20k people who had turned up had no idea what was happening.

Just noticed Jeff, cheers mate. Was hoping he'd make it up there.

A case of his reputation preceding him? Seems hugely unfair, but proves how difficult it is for a player to shed his reputation.

On first watch I thought it was a good strong tackle but as soon as the ref stopped play I knew it would be red. I don't know anything about the player but I imagine the ref saw the tackled player land on his neck and thought it was dangerous. I can see arguments either way but I do think most refs would have done the same

Looks like abig thumping tackle and it is unfortunate that the London Welsh player landed on the back of his neck.

Clearly the London Welsh players sympathised with his dismisal since he was shaking their hands and being patted in sympathy as he trudged off the pitch.

I feel for the ref in this occasion since seing the incident in real time from the angle the ref was looking at it from it would have looked severe.

I think the answer is to make the sanction for foul play to be yellow unless off the ball / after the whistle / deemed deliberate.

If the ref thinks its a tip tackle and I can understand why he did in this case then it has to be red even if it is unintentional

This was a marginal instance perhpas but legs above head means you have to put the player down carefully.

As I have nothing better to do, I have gone through this frame by frame. As the LW player is about to hit the ground he is at a 45 angle, albeit very briefly. It is a very harsh red card, but Doyle was right there and I can only presume he saw this angle and made the decision to give a red card. I can also only presume that Hala'ufia's previous record has influenced his decision.

Ozzy3213 wrote:There are a few telling things MrsP.

1. Hala'ufia clearly hits the player in the midrift, so there is little chance that he has lifted him.
2. He knocks him a good yard back indicating that he has come straight through rather than driving the player upwards.
3. The players lands shoulders first but Chris still has him wrapped up in the tackle and lands with him.

It's clear from that that his legs go up simply from the momentum of Chris smashing him backwards.

My view is that he's seen legs go up, seen it's Chris and decided that it must have been a naughty one and sent him off. Whatever his rationale it is a shocking decision.

I quite agree. I simply can't see the Red in this tackle at all (or the yellow or even a penalty). I am a very strong advocate of very severe penalties for serious infractions (in the case of a clear gouge, minimum 6 months, for example). I just don't see anything here except a strong tackle.

Thats never a red card.

when you tackle a guy with both your arms wrapping around the guys waist and midrif, it can never be called a tip tackle.

A tip tackle suggests you picked the guy up, that never happened here.

Utterly unfair.

I've looked at it a few times and I 'think' (it's difficult to tell exactly from that one angle) that Jewall's back is curved and it's the middle that hits the ground. His upper back and neck seem to be curved up at the point of impact. His lower back also seems to be curved up (as you would expect being hit in the middle by that fella). So I'd say point of contact wasn't his neck. If it was it would be a yellow at worst for a dangerous tackle.

Guys - according to the IRB rules and guidance its a tip tackle and thus merits a red card. Its marginal but if you follow the advice it is a tip tackle.

Your argument is with the IRB not the ref. the ref applied the rules as per the guidence

"Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play"

so he was clear of the ground IE lifted, he was dropped (actually I think driven) and landed on his upper body. Red card.

I disagree, he never lifted him, he drove into him and the momentum took them to ground. In my view it was a brilliant momentum tackle.

Thats is absolute nonsense. Not even close to a red card.
Thats happened to me a few times, once when i was 6 and playing football i tried to block a shot by heading it.... basically the same thing happened to me - legs flew forward, head flew back.
Pretty sire Hala'ufia was totally legal, he just hit him too hard!

Biltong wrote:I disagree, he never lifted him, he drove into him and the momentum took them to ground. In my view it was a brilliant momentum tackle.

sums it up perfectly.

Guys - can you read the rules? he was off the ground and his legs higher than his head and landed on his upper body

ACCORDING TO THE RULES THAT IS A RED CARD.

TJ wrote:Guys - can you read the rules? he was off the ground and his legs higher than his head and landed on his upper body

ACCORDING TO THE RULES THAT IS A RED CARD.

yes, but he never lifted him, the hit took his feet of the ground.

every other law is interpreted the way the referee sees it. In this case he didn't interpret the law at all, he saw feet coming off the ground and red carded.

If you go back to the world cup in 2007, Habana in the final made a tackle lke that (Ithink it was on Cueto), exactly the same principle. OK in habana's case the drvie was lower, but the timing , execution etc. was brilliant.

TJ wrote:Guys - can you read the rules? he was off the ground and his legs higher than his head and landed on his upper body

ACCORDING TO THE RULES THAT IS A RED CARD.

Sorry, but that happens at the end of lots of tackles without the player being lifted, which is the key part of the current tip tackle rule. Was nothing more than a great tackle that took the ball carrier backwards onto his back because it stopped his momentum.

If that is to be a red card offence, we might as well just ban big guys from making tackles on anyone smaller.

TJ wrote:Guys - can you read the rules? he was off the ground and his legs higher than his head and landed on his upper body

ACCORDING TO THE RULES THAT IS A RED CARD.

That tackle wasn't a few sentences written in a book... it was a tackle. He wasn't lifted, the moment of the force pivoting around the waist lifted his legs!