Chris Ashton - A hollow man?

I have concerns over Ashton. He certainly doesn't merit inclusion in the Lions unless he improves massively. Ok, he scored at last - but how many times does he knock on and waste opportunities. His handling is dire. There are 2 key reasons. He stands too flat and seldom tales a ball at pace resulting in him often checking - its easier to run onto a ball to collect it than to try and catch it when starting to accelerate. Secondly, because he isnt cutting a pre planned angle at pace, he looks to see the space and takes his eyes off the ball.

His premiership form doesn't merit selection either - there are better wingers. He is a strong lump - but too predictable and too inconsistent in his handling.

I am also bloody fed up with his dive. I don't care about the arrogance label, accusations of disrespect ot even the fact it makes him look like a knob - no - one day he WILL drop it or it will be knocked from his arm in a tackle. Its stupid and unnecessary. Sod law says - if he picks for the Lions, the rare occasion fans from the other home nations may find themselves cheering him - it WILL happen and he will NEVER live it down.

I teach the kids - get that ball down quickly and solidly.

I agree. I made a point of this on the Stephen Jones Lions thread and I was attacked.

Morgannwg - The truth hurts. I may be a one eyed England fan - but I am right. He lives off his purple patch. I would love to see Varndell or Wade given a run out.

Wales has better wingers based upon current teams. So does Ireland. Our pack is immense and distribution excellent - but in the rare event a ball gets passed the centres, Ashton knows on 2 out of 3. The kiwi's can pick up anything - he can't.

sausage1966 wrote:
I teach the kids - get that ball down quickly and solidly.

Like Manu Tulagi you mean?

Yep, no fan of the splash either. Sir Clive seemed unimpressed too when discussing post game in the Sky box.

His running lines are impressive though and he looks like he could work better and better with Manu.

Forgive me - I don't see where Manu fits into this. Show boating is just a recipe for disaster - whosoever does it.

The splash is so risky. I'm just waiting for that wet day when he squeezes the ball out of his forearm mid-splash. The Ashsplash backlash will be understandably relentless.

sausage1966 wrote:Forgive me - I don't see where Manu fits into this. Show boating is just a recipe for disaster - whosoever does it.

He walked casually across the line and even stopped to take time to stop and have a laugh before possibly not touching the ball down quite properly (hes lucky he didnt have laidlaws favourite TMO) and then using a highly direspectful signal to the opposition.

Yet is immune to criticism unlike Ashton.

Hardly surprising though as one is a saug faced hair pulling git.

PSW, I don't think he's making the "Looser" gesture.

This was discussed on the Tigers Offy forum and apparently he's making a gesture to "The heavens"

Oops! I meant Loser of course.

Couldn’t care less about his Splash – maybe it’ll become as big a part of rugby as the haka . Plus it annoys the oppo fans, and he only does it in games we win. His tackling, tho’ not great, is on par with many wingers (look at Sharples, Wade…). Bit more worried about his habit of dropping passes. Still, he scores – and that’s his job. I like him.

Right just like Prince Harry was pointing at a passing aircraft ....
To be fair to me it looked like he was just trying to hook a player back

Morgan

Reading that thread I would say you were disagreed with about Ashton rather than attacked.

I don't mind the dive itself so much as the media obsession with it, and currently I wouldn't have him down as a Lion.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Right just like Prince Harry was pointing at a passing aircraft ....
To be fair to me it looked like he was just trying to hook a player back

I do think it's naive at best on his part to make the gesture but it is not intended to offend. I do think he should stop it mind.

Our passing is Poopie (best passer in the starting 15 seems to be Tuilagi). Ashton knocks on from a ball that was thrown slightly behind his left ear. What a surprise. If we have to pass quickly it's generally behind the player or at their head (or both).

And Ashton's 'tackle' attempt on the 2nd NZ try

T S Eliot predicted him in The Waste Land:

'... we are the Hollow Men, headpiece filled with straw....'

Yeah I think that covers it.

But by way of a refreshing change, Barritt & Tui both busted out some decent passes.

Well, given the cultural impact that SL has brought to England I'm surprised the splash has continued. I don't like it for many reasons but like the OP, one day he'll drop it when it counts.

Like many players, Ashton has had a dip in form but I still thing he's a very good wing who will come good again. I wouldn't be writing him off just yet.

Rugby is a form of entertainment and he's just playing up to the fans.... He's a guy who puts bums on seats, the kids love him and if it draws in more kids into rugby and away from football then I'm all for it.

He has only ever done it when he has a free run to the line.

England should be thankful of having such a player.... He is the real deal and if worked correctly he is dynamite.

If you want an idea of what a robotic, union raised winger looks like then just think cuthbert of Wales.... A big lump, fast without a real rugby brain and no real idea bar route 1. You can just see his youth coaches.... "Just give the ball to cuthbert, he's big and fast and breaks tackles... No need to develop him as a player"... Come pro rugby it's too late.
When he got the ball in space the other day he ran like he was a lock... Seemed unsure of what to do bar pin his ears back and smash into the tackle as hard as he can.

It's good enough for the Rabo and perhaps even the 6n.... But he's easily found out come higher class opposition and easy to deal with.
AUS and deans would love it if guys like Ashton were dropped over gatlands robotic backline of Ivan drago's.

I rate ashton...but i do believe he is under threat from Wade. Now Wade can tackle....its his positioning that needs work,...but being the eps would help that.
But offensively the guy is magic...and could push Ashton for his spot...

Being able to tackle in the premiership is a little different to being able to tackle in test rugby.

Without seeing him play bar the SA tour admittedly I would worry about his size... I remember when matt tait first came on the scene and people were saying... "You should see him bosh players about in the premiership"... And "he tackles like jonny" comments.

In test rugby he was thrown about like a rag doll and not just by Henson... Near every test.

Saying that Robinson was no weakling... But he had a massive core for his build.. All shoulders and thighs. Wade looks a little smaller, a little less built. He needs conditioning if he's to be used..... Savea would love him!

offload wrote:Well, given the cultural impact that SL has brought to England I'm surprised the splash has continued. I don't like it for many reasons but like the OP, one day he'll drop it when it counts.

Like many players, Ashton has had a dip in form but I still thing he's a very good wing who will come good again. I wouldn't be writing him off just yet.

It was Johnno that told him to cut it out. Lancasters "cultural impact" has been no tries for Ashton in his first 10 games (he'd score 12 in his previous 10) followed by a massive splash after a year of international celibacy.
In his own words "‘I had no intention of doing it,’ he said. ‘I’ve no idea where it came from. I was just so happy to finally get over the line. I said it was going to happen at the right time and maybe that was the right time. I thought I’d forgotten what to do. But apparently not"

As much as I had to say this the Mails take on the whole thing is worth a read :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2241991/Chris-Ashton-swallow-dive-pure-joy.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Is it so bad that a player was actually happy to be playing the game? That was the one thing that stood out with England, they were really having a good time out there (except Vunipola)

Ashton is a great poacher / scorer. the rest of his game is nothing special but his eye for the line and his support running are great.

Something about him means I would never get tired of slapping him tho - he has a face that needs a good slap

TJ wrote:Ashton is a great poacher / scorer. the rest of his game is nothing special but his eye for the line and his support running are great.

Something about him means I would never get tired of slapping him tho - he has a face that needs a good slap

Makes it all the more amazing that Tuilagi managed to remember to pass to him and not punch the poo out of him this time

fa0019 wrote:Being able to tackle in the premiership is a little different to being able to tackle in test rugby.

Without seeing him play bar the SA tour admittedly I would worry about his size... I remember when matt tait first came on the scene and people were saying... "You should see him bosh players about in the premiership"... And "he tackles like jonny" comments.

In test rugby he was thrown about like a rag doll and not just by Henson... Near every test.

Saying that Robinson was no weakling... But he had a massive core for his build.. All shoulders and thighs. Wade looks a little smaller, a little less built. He needs conditioning if he's to be used..... Savea would love him!

Actually Wade is a strong little guy...and i dont want him to bosh....i want him tackle...which Ahston was alarmingly not happy to do.

Theres definately space in test rugby of Wingers like Wade...

Hello All
This is my 1st post here, but I’ve been lurking in the shadows for some time.
Regarding Ashton, I have to agree with Sausage. There is something about him that niggles me...the hype for one is way overboard, good player who pops up on the shoulder at the right time, yet I really struggle to see the ‘wonder of the world’ that others do.

But maybe that just shows my lack of rugby nous.

For a player from League his man on man tackling is not what I would expect and his hands are nearly as bad as mine.

Something that really made me shake my head was when he weighed into the Etzebeth/Youngs scuffle, right at the end, with a really weasely (is weasely a word? If not it should be) slap to the back of the Boks head. He then scarpered off sharpish.

Maybe I’m being a bit harsh on Ashton, but I feel Brown was far better value on Saturday & looked exciting every time he had the football. Plus, I like the sore attitude that Brown seems to carry.

MotelMoneyMurderMadness = thank you.

Seabiscuit Wheeler - "He walked casually across the line and even stopped to take time to stop and have a laugh before possibly not touching the ball down quite properly (hes lucky he didnt have laidlaws favourite TMO) and then using a highly direspectful signal to the opposition. Yet is immune to criticism unlike Ashton. "

Utter drivel. I have separate views on Manu - this is unrelated. I was talking about Ashton - no one else. Why hijack this towards a totally different topic?

[quote="Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler"][quote="sausage1966"]Forgive me - I don't see where Manu fits into this. Show boating is just a recipe for disaster - whosoever does it. [/quote]

He walked casually across the line and even stopped to take time to stop and have a laugh before possibly not touching the ball down quite properly (hes lucky he didnt have laidlaws favourite TMO) and then using a highly direspectful signal to the opposition.

Yet is immune to criticism unlike Ashton.

Hardly surprising though as one is a saug faced hair pulling git.[/quote]

Sorry - but is there a point to this comment? This thread was about Ashton - not Manu.

Dear Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

For the avoidance of doubt - my thread was discussing Christopher Ashton. (born 29 March 1987 in Wigan, Greater Manchester) No one else. It was HIS performance as a winger which I was discussing - no other player nor position. I wasn't comparing him with anyone else - I was making observations. Respectfully, should you have views on any other player, then please start an appropriate thread as you see fit.

If you have no constructive observation on Chris Ashton, then cool - dont say anything. We are all happy.

There were a fair few missed tackles at the weekend, the worst offenders being:

Tackles/Missed Tackles
B Youngs 0/1
Goode 1/2
Care 1/1
Brown 3/2
Tuilagi 5/2
T Youngs 6/2
Ashton 4/1

I thought it was reasonably obvious why seabisuit posted what he did and it was relevant to Ashton. Basically for some Ashton seems to be a hate figure (hate is too strong a word really). If you highlight similar actions from other players they are ignored.

If the above tackle stats are accurate then it shows his tackling isn't that bad (certainly compared to others in that game, specifically his fellow winger and 'fullback' Brown).

A supposedly good distributor Goode (I think, if not then just switch the name) chucks a try scoring pass at Ashton's left ear and it's Ashton that gets blaimed rather than the passer.

Ashton gets the ball 3 times and makes twice the ground per run than Tuilagi but he get's slated for not doing anything.

I also noticed that he got involved in a lot of the rucks (which is where we won the game, along with tries, one of which happened because Ashton tracked Manu after his break) and I don't think he gave any penalties away in the ruck.

Not saying he's one our two best wingers but he's up there and I have no problem with him being selected. I'd also like Wade to have a go to see how he does. Sharples, Wade, Brown, Foden, Goode, Ashton...can we have 6 back three in the 6 nations? I think that's normal isn't it?

fa0019 wrote:Rugby is a form of entertainment and he's just playing up to the fans.... He's a guy who puts bums on seats, the kids love him and if it draws in more kids into rugby and away from football then I'm all for it.

He has only ever done it when he has a free run to the line.

England should be thankful of having such a player.... He is the real deal and if worked correctly he is dynamite.

If you want an idea of what a robotic, union raised winger looks like then just think cuthbert of Wales.... A big lump, fast without a real rugby brain and no real idea bar route 1. You can just see his youth coaches.... "Just give the ball to cuthbert, he's big and fast and breaks tackles... No need to develop him as a player"... Come pro rugby it's too late.
When he got the ball in space the other day he ran like he was a lock... Seemed unsure of what to do bar pin his ears back and smash into the tackle as hard as he can.

It's good enough for the Rabo and perhaps even the 6n.... But he's easily found out come higher class opposition and easy to deal with.
AUS and deans would love it if guys like Ashton were dropped over gatlands robotic backline of Ivan drago's.

I think you're getting Cuthbert confused with Visser pal. I think Cuthberts strike rate at international level also disproves the rest of what you say. Along with the fact that he never played youth rugby because he came to the game so late, which is also why he needs to learn a lot more.

HammerofThunor wrote: I'd also like Wade to have a go to see how he does....

...with 3 posessions a match

I agree that Goode too seems remarkedly immune to criticism for his tackling and passing (what he was put in the side for)
Farrell too...his kicking in the first half especially was straight down the throats of the NZ back 3 and England were only bailed out by their tactical kicking being as woeful. Several times he stood so deep to recieve the ball that the centers had almost overun him before he passed meaning they received the ball standing with defenders coming on at speed.
Bassicaly England were appalling, sack Lancaster.

Personally Ashton's personality doesn't bother me. I can understand why a lot of people find him annoying though.

Off the pitch he hasn't done anything untoward since the world cup. Some fans criticized him for being bottled but I don't.

My summary and stats on his on the field performance since the start of the season.

4 tries in 8 games for Sarries (2 vs LI,1 vs Sale, 1 vs Edinburgh)

3 yellow cards (1 vs Saints given after citing)

1 try in 3 internationals


Bear in mind that Saracens have only scored 9 tries this season in the AP 3 of them have come from Chris Ashton in 6 games.

1 try in two HC games.

He is Saracens' most potent attacking winger.

I have seen Ashton waste various opportunities though.

Vs Saints he blew a decent opportunity when Tomkins had hacked the ball on.

Like others I thought Ashton should have pinned his ears back vs South Africa when Tuilagi passed him the ball.

I don't think Goode gave him a particularly bad pass when Ashton had the try line at his mercy vs New Zealand in the first half.

Ashton has flaws in his game sure - he needs to work on his tackling more. He needs to work more on beating men 1 on 1 too.

Ashton's biggest strength is support play. He runs very good lines. Just needs to pop up more looking for work.

3 yellow cards is a hell of a lot for any player, let alone a winger, in just 10 club games. Frustration?
His try scoring record at club level though, even in (pardon me here BS) a side that plays a similar basic gameplan to England that largely ignores the existance of wingers.
Like Cueto after his epic drought (far longer) he clealry needed that try. Hopefuly now he will start to relax more and get drop less when the rare chances do come.
I do question his discipline though

Some good points raised in Ashton’s defence to be fair, particularly the tackle stat. I did say he was a good bloke, but I can’t buy into the hype surrounding him. I just don’t see it, sorry.

Maybe it’s because I heard Barnes enthusing about him, in such a sycophantic manner it turned me against him.

That said, come the Spring, if he has a good Six Nations, then I’ll be on board the Ashton bandwagon, denying any knowledge of these comments.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote: I'd also like Wade to have a go to see how he does....

...with 3 posessions a match

I agree that Goode too seems remarkedly immune to criticism for his tackling and passing (what he was put in the side for)
Farrell too...his kicking in the first half especially was straight down the throats of the NZ back 3 and England were only bailed out by their tactical kicking being as woeful. Several times he stood so deep to recieve the ball that the centers had almost overun him before he passed meaning they received the ball standing with defenders coming on at speed.
Bassicaly England were appalling, sack Lancaster.

Players who have beaten the All Blacks - immune to criticism? Whatever next?

Sure there are things for the players to work on but I think as armchair pundits we focus too much on what went wrong than what went right.

Okay so England missed a few tackles against the best side and attack in the world. It happens.

I thought England's kick chase was actually pretty good overall. There were a few wayward kicks but the kick offs in particular we very good.

Morgannwg

Not saying he's not a good rugby player or has a decent record... I'm suggesting IMO he's limited.
You say Tim Visser is more akin to my example... well he's a better player than Cuthbert for sure.. bad defender but an awesome attacker with plaudits and awards to prove it.

When you mentioned that Cuthbert played little youth rugby it shows... outside of his comfort zone he seems unsure of what to do.

Look at his run the other day when Wales played the ball from their own goal line... almost an exact carbon copy of Chris Ashton's try of the year vs. AUS in 2010.

If Ashton had just bolted down the line like cuthbert did he would have been caught... thats the difference between the players.... one is a good reader of the game which makes him a deadly finisher... the other is just a novice.

Against streetwise AUS we need a little more. Ashton is the man to fill that spot.

To be fair, I suppose he can't control the hype the media generates and perhaps doesnt even court it. Unlike his mate Mr Haskell...

IMO it al depends on the style of game wanted and combinations of players. For the lions we have a load of good wings - but non are the complete player. Ashton does what he does as well if not better than any of the rest ( bar perhpas Visser) but he is limited in other ways.

In mt view it is very important for a wing to defend well.

In that sense Visser has major areas of development.

PSW all of Ashton's YCs have been the same thing - poor tackling technique. Basically shoulder charging. Bit disappointed that the Sarries coaching haven't whipped Ashton's defense into shape yet. Still he hasn't been at the club long.

You bring up an important point - about gameplans and wingers.

Wade and Varndell have been prominent this season for Wasps because to a certain extent they rely on them. I think something like 13 tries have come from the wingers which is insane. The emphasis is bringing them into the game more.

Also remember Ashton has scored more tries in the AP than the likes of Sharples,Biggs,JSD etc despite playing for the team that has only scored 9 tries.

Biltong

true but Habana was an awful defender when he came onto the scene...only post 2007 did he shore up his defence and is now one the best.

As long as they're not a complete tackling liability then attack prowess is the most important. You can't teach that... but you can't develop a good defensive game with time.

I don't see much of Visser bar his video captions on some sites and the odd test. With his strike rate though it would be difficult to turn him down for the lions if in form.

Neil Jenkins was an awful defender for his whole career... wasn't a fullback, couldn't pass, run or tackle... yet his kicking was near perfection and in many ways was key to the series victory. Sometimes you have to take the bad with with good... same with AUS playing Cooper.

Visser better than Cuthbert? Wouldn't have thought so. Although it was a similar situation to Ashton's breakaway versus Aus he only had one man to beat (not saying it was easy) where-as Cuthbert was surrounded by defenders. If I remember rightly Cuthbert could have passed back inside to Faletau, however the moment was only there for a single second given the cover defence. One or two of Ashton, Visser or Cuthbert will tour. I'm just in agreement with this article. I think Ashton can be let off for the swan dive against NZ btw, but he still looks like a muppet when doing it.

FA, I agree you can develop into a solid defender, but wings and Fullbacks are often your cover defence or last defence.

Weaknesses there is a lot more obvious.

Take Naas Botha as an example, he admitted that he never tackled, but there were always players around him.

Not always the case in the back three.

i think ashton has realised that the world doesnt revlove around him any more..

Which is reinforceing the fact that he is gonna have to really truely fight for his place..

There is no more messing about with this england team- we have become professional under SL at the very least

Morgannwg

Cuthbert better than Visser???? Really... Visser has the best strike record of any wing in the UK, been in the dream team of the Rabo for the last 3 years and last year won player of the year. Remember which team he plays for too... not exactly the greatest attacking team.

If you look at the old Ashton video he had defenders around him to and would have been tackled by the halfway line hadn't he made a sudden change of direction to ward off 2 defenders.

Cuthbert could have looked for the offload or kicked into space for the chase..... watching it he hardly even looked around... just went for it.

Still rate Cuthbert btw... he can become a very useful player in time... as I was saying with BB... Habana was just a gas man at the beginning of his career... to see how he's changed just look at his try of the year vs. the ABs.

Morgannwg wrote:Visser better than Cuthbert? Wouldn't have thought so.

Look at their record in the pro 12. Visser scores more tries, more per game, and is playing for a team that loses all the time. Also in the few internationals he has played in his strike rate is great again for a poor side.

We will know for sure after the 6N. Not a lot in it and similar sorts of players

I like both Visser and Cuthbert, in fact more so than I like North. I also like that new kid Williams that played for Wales this Autumn, in fact he looked rather abrasive in defence.

The important thing for Visser is he will stll be on a steep learning curve, how many tests has he played now, 6?

I kinda like to see Visser in the Lions if just to find out what he could do in a (potentialY) decent side.
The kid has a good try scoring record for fricking scotland, it does suggest he has some kind of ability to do something right.