Keeping the Wheels on - AKA England's next EPS

First topic message reminder :

After a remarkable finish to the Autumn series Stuart Lancaster and his coaches next mission will be the new years EPS. Chosen in January it will not be open for change until Sep that year (except swaps for injuries) so he'll need to plan well and pick not only on current form but prior experience and future potential.

In the final game of the AI's the starting team that day showed the route that England rugby needs to take on the pitch; hard and aggressive up front with the pack sharing the duties of fetching, carrying and rucking amongst a core group of multi skilled players rather then selecting various specialists for one or two specific roles. In the backs we say a few glimpses of the Catt/Farrel/Lancaster triumvirate in action with Youngs getting some quick ball and kicking well, and the 10 drawing his centres up to the line at pace and actually giving Tuilagi good ball to use. The left wing and full back then create momentum from the back by beating their first man when countering and staying tall in the tackle to wait for support.

Of course there were players who failed to cover themselves in glory like wise others who were never deemed good enough to get a chance or who were only in because of multiple injuries. These I expect to see fall by the road side next year.

The current England Elite Player Squad

Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby) Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), David Paice (London Irish)
Locks
Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) Joe Launchberry (London Wasps)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints) James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)


Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Anthony Allan (Leicester Tigers), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Johnathen Joseph (London Irish) Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), (Ugo Monye (Harlequins))
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

Players in italics were the latest changes allowed through injury or retirement (potentially the most likely to lose their spots again).

So to me the bulk of that 32 man squad looks about right, there are still quite a few players that are potentially a little worried about their places now:

Mako Vunipola (only came in for an injured Corbs but didn't look too comfy at times)
Rob Webber (Youngs looked a lot better and Hartley is still first choice)
David Paice (only came in for an injured Webber, didn't play better then Youngs or Hartley)
Mauritz Botha (just not an international lock, shown up completely by Launchberry)
Tom Palmer (anonymous around the park and not good enough at lineout time)
Courtney Lawes (injured a lot, is he big enough to partner Parling or athletic enough to partner Launchberry)
Tom Johnson (just doesn't play the style that England seem to need)
Tom Croft (injured and does his style fit England)
Phil Dowson (over 30 and can't make the match day 23)
James Haskell (Only came in for injuries, not sure if he did enough to stay)
Thomas Waldrom (pushed out of the starting lineup and hardly likely to make the bench)
Lee Dickson (can't make the match day 23)
Anthony Allan (can not make the 23, average club player)
Brad Barritt (bar one game looked out of his depth, potentially a new Noone)
Jordan Turner Hall (Like Barritt but less pace and no real vision, injured at a bad time)
Chris Ashton (A media darling but lazy in defence and pretty anonymous in most games, riding on rep at the moment)
Ugo Monye (only called up for injuries, didn't do enough)
Charlie Sharples (poor defence let him down)
Ben Foden (unlucky with an injury and now has two critical players in front of him)

Now I don't think all of these players will go, but there are a few who are near certainties.

Yappysnap's Elite Player Squad
Forwards (17)
Props
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Locks
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchberry (London Wasps), David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Flankers
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps)
No 8's
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)

Backs (15)
Scrum Halfs
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins)
Fly Halfs
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Centers
Brad Barritt (Saracens), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), George Lowe (Harlequins), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Wings
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints),Christian Wade (Wasps)
Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens)

The changes are
David Wilson did enough to get in to the EPS permanently
Nick Wood comes in to replace Vunipola as a trial
Tom Youngs replaces Webber as very real competition for Hartley
Dave Attwood comes in for Palmer to add some bulk and physicality if needed
James Haskell takes Johnsons place as he adds a bit more physicality and covers the back three
Billy Vunipola is trialled in Waldroms place to see his carrying game
Freddue Burns gets a permanent spot for Hodgeson
George Lowe, Billy Twelvetrees and Kyle Eastmond all come in to the squad to trial different attributes in the centres as well as cover the wings if needed.
Christian Wade comes in on the wing

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:You don't rest and try out players in the 6 nations. The first ai, the barbarians game and the summer tour exist for that.

Not even if the other options have a lot of potential?

I think it can be done yappy, just because it's not common practice, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Besides, I only said I wouldn't mind it if it happened- I wasn't stating that it should happen.

I can see what Peters saying...and would agree with the likes of Robshaw whos game allows others to do the flashy stuff...and the games he listed are the ones to give some of the pretenders a start...

However i have no worries about trying a few youngsters from the bench in the 6n if the game is pretty much secure etc...

I for one, would love to Kvesic given a chance off the bench.

It's not only his groundwork that excellent, but his carrying is ferocious at the moment. Againt Tigers a few weeks ago, he was the nstand out player, primarily because of his aggrerssive carrying. England could use a carrier like that I think, and i'm just hoping we get to see him on the International stage this 6N.

bluestonevedder wrote:I'm happy with him retaining the captaincy, for sure. He leads by example and by the way he plays, which I like. Sure, he needs to improve his decision making, but I think he's the right choice.

The decision-making thing has been overplayed a bit - each of the decisions he's been criticised for is one that he's had ample experience of making work at Quins. In the SA game, for instance, if Botha had let the flamin' ball go into touch, they'd have had a scrum on half way, most likely a penalty, and who'd have bet against Farrell converting it?

We also forget that Robshaw is England's least experienced captain for 30 years (only 1 cap prior to being handed the armband) and is also leading England's least experienced team for a very long time. At the start of the AIs they had only just over 2 Leonards [1] of experience. By comparison, SL's target is that by 2015 the squad should have 5.5 Leonards. If, collectively, they're a bit raw, it shouldn't be a surprise. Sometimes you just have to have been there to know what to do (to take a classic example, look at the difference that Sir Jase's experience made when he eventually came on in the 2003 final).

[1] The SI measure of international rugby experience is the Leonard, being a number of caps equivalent to the total accumulated by the Funbus over his career.

Yes...someone like him i would be happy to see coming off the bench. He's a very talented guy whos performing to very high standards regularly.

Regarding the Argentina SUmmer tour....we simply MUST find a quality back up / competition for Cole at TH...im concerned that if Cole goes we are in trouble. I dont think our current back ups are anywhere near his quality...

Indeed i think we could see a very raw team heading to Argentina...with the lions away (not a huge contingent) and the senior england players having a deserved summer off.

What squad would you take?

Poorfour wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I'm happy with him retaining the captaincy, for sure. He leads by example and by the way he plays, which I like. Sure, he needs to improve his decision making, but I think he's the right choice.

The decision-making thing has been overplayed a bit - each of the decisions he's been criticised for is one that he's had ample experience of making work at Quins. In the SA game, for instance, if Botha had let the flamin' ball go into touch, they'd have had a scrum on half way, most likely a penalty, and who'd have bet against Farrell converting it?

We also forget that Robshaw is England's least experienced captain for 30 years (only 1 cap prior to being handed the armband) and is also leading England's least experienced team for a very long time. At the start of the AIs they had only just over 2 Leonards [1] of experience. By comparison, SL's target is that by 2015 the squad should have 5.5 Leonards. If, collectively, they're a bit raw, it shouldn't be a surprise. Sometimes you just have to have been there to know what to do (to take a classic example, look at the difference that Sir Jase's experience made when he eventually came on in the 2003 final).

[1] The SI measure of international rugby experience is the Leonard, being a number of caps equivalent to the total accumulated by the Funbus over his career.

Oh god, don't get me started on that. Morgan was perfectly placed to catch the ball, and Botha once agains proved he hasn't got a rugby brain. Ridiculous for a professional!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes...someone like him i would be happy to see coming off the bench. He's a very talented guy whos performing to very high standards regularly.

Regarding the Argentina SUmmer tour....we simply MUST find a quality back up / competition for Cole at TH...im concerned that if Cole goes we are in trouble. I dont think our current back ups are anywhere near his quality...

Indeed i think we could see a very raw team heading to Argentina...with the lions away (not a huge contingent) and the senior england players having a deserved summer off.

What squad would you take?

Really want to answer that GF, but it's something I'd like to really think about, and I'm at work at the moment so can't really!

Though, I would take PDJ, Thomas if he's fit, Knight, and Wilson, assuming Cole is away with Lions.

Assuming Corbs is away with the Lions too at loosie, I'd look at possibly taking Lahiff of London Irish. Everytime i've seen him play, he's impressed me, both at scrum time and in the loose.

What's the squad size going to be?

I reckon Lahiff might be a good call, there is talk of the Aussies being interested in him (he qualifies in some way) and he would be a very good prospect to lose.

Show him that there is a route to international rugby here and he might not get his head turned.

yappysnap wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:You don't rest and try out players in the 6 nations. The first ai, the barbarians game and the summer tour exist for that.

Not even if the other options have a lot of potential?

You select the best team. Not to try them out, but because you think they are the best option. if youre proven wrong you swap back. Like he keeps doing with Flood/Farrell and Youngs/Care
What you dont do is use the 6 nations as a training exersize, its the only competition the national side is playing in.
Theres bound to be injuries/suspensions/dogs eating passports that will give chances to the fringe players. With this being a lions year they will get even more chances than usual in the summer.

If he thinks theres a problem with the current incumbent and someone else could do better ( and this includes adjusting the style of play) then yes of course make the change. But change for change sake, pointless. Its rare enough to see a near full strength side able to be put out, take advantage! Get your first team playing together, keep building it and those partnerships.

Cumbrian wrote:I reckon Lahiff might be a good call, there is talk of the Aussies being interested in him (he qualifies in some way) and he would be a very good prospect to lose.

Show him that there is a route to international rugby here and he might not get his head turned.

I had no idea the Aussies were interested- he would be a terrible prospect to lose. Hopefully LI and the England coaching staff can tempt him to stay.

Pete

I actually agree with what you say there...

Whilst there are players from both the senior and Saxons team id like to see get some gametime (Kvesic, Wade etc)...the main ones i want to see are...

10 - Burns. As long as hes fit...id like to see him come of the bench and show his range of skills...

12 - Id like to see Twelvetrees coming off the bench at some point as a repalcement for Barritt...as i think he really has much more to offer in that 12 spot.

I would love to see Twelvetrees at 12 alongside Tuilagi at 13 at some point this Six Nations.

I rate barritt highly...but i dont think he is the long term answer so
Personally i think we NEED to have a look at that comb this 6n.

Now im not saying 36 is the superman answer to every England fans issue at 12..but we need to see how he goes. Can he give us that little bit extra in attack that i now believe Barritt cant give us.

If he doesnt look up to it...fine...we have barrit...who is a rock..and we will need to work around his attacking limitations...

Yeh, I agree. I also rate Barritt very highly, and I think he could finally be starting to bring his club game to the international stage.

I think if Twelvetrees can prove himself at 12, we would have 2 very different options at insdie centre who both possess quite different games. It could give us a good diversity to our game plan.

Barritt just reminds me of a flanker (Maybe he should become an openside ).

Hes tough as nails...tackles all day and everything in sight...and rucks brilliantly. But he really does lack that bit of skills when we have the ball.
Now if we have Burns (at 10) and Tuilagi (or even Joseph at 13)...we may have the ability to make up for that...but with Farrell and Barritt there...im not convinced. They will win games undoubtedly...which is the bottom line...but it wont be plasing to the eye...

Ha, he could be a good openside. Or even play at 6, with Cole at 7!

I'm excited to see Barritt this 6N, because I think towards the end of the AIs we saw he was kicking on a little bit. I completely understand your worries regarding Farrell and Barritt in the same backline, but I think they warrant a little more consistent time together.

Actually Farrell has impressed me a little at FH with his game winning ability...efficiency shall we say rather than skilllful ability..and he set up Ashtons try (with his boot) very nicely...but is that enough at the top level?

He's only 20..or is he 21 now so has lots of time..and i guess him and Burns could offer us a great set of options at 10 depending on opposition.

But i think 36 offers just as powerful defence and rucking as Barritt...but more attacking.

36 is surely a strong option for the bench, especially as we will most likely have fullback cover on the wing and Tuillagi able to move out wide if required ( or even Youngs at a push, hes done it before for England)

I would like to see him get a game if England are as tepid in attack as they were last 6 nations. For all his strengths theres always a danger with a Farrell Barrit combination that England become utterly devoid of creative attacking threat and reliant on set pieces and forcing mistakes.
You could colour me amazed if the starting midfield isnt the one that took on NZ though, pending injuries of course.

Ai, Farrell's definitely gone up in my estimations since the AIs. What I really like at the moment is that Farrell and the emerging Burns are so different that they offer two excellent options for the squad.

PSW, I agree with you in that we'll undoubtedly see the NZ starting centre partnership, but if 36 can put in a strong performance from the bench, we could see a change for one game at least. I hope we do.

Clark out for the 'forseeable future' and set to miss the entire Six Nations campaign.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9818406/England-handed-Six-Nations-blow-as-Northampton-Saints-flanker-Calum-Clark-requires-shoulder-operation.html

Natural justice, should be back at about the time his ban shouldve expired.

And we get Mauritz Botha instead

Ah no not Botha!! Get Slater, Kruis if we need a second rower...or Kvesic up as replacement...

True PSW, could be some serious karma coming back to get him. That'll be two consecutive 6 Nations he's now missed but was selected for.

Have to admit, part of me was intrigued as to what he would have been like on the international stage....so m uch talk of his physicality. I just don't see it right now myself.

Mouritz Botha.....I know right?

Kvesic is already up, is he not?

Yeh, but I think he's a temporary replacement, whereas Botha's now a permanent one I guess since Clark's out for the whole of the tournament....?

I didnt think Kvesic had been promoted? Hes in the Saxons isnt he? If he is promoted...even better...we can then look at giving Slater or Kruis a chance of being in the seniors - its pretty certain they wont play so nice experience to be in the group.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I didnt think Kvesic had been promoted? Hes in the Saxons isnt he? If he is promoted...even better...we can then look at giving Slater or Kruis a chance of being in the seniors - its pretty certain they wont play so nice experience to be in the group.

Kvesic was called up after this weekend's injuries GF, for Johnson I think?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21142268

Yep Kvesic for Johnson and old feet-for-hands Botha for Clark. I hate that the only reason Botha is in and around the squad is because he trains well (apparently) it's not even like he has a shed load of caps and Int experience to give to the youngsters and stop me if i'm wrong but he's not even a starter at Saracens now!

Can't help but feel there's a bit of justice in Clarks injury. But really hoped that Kruis would get in, or Attwood/Slater/Kitchener etc, heck even Robson is better.

So the starting team will probably be:

1.Marler 2.Hartley 3.Cole
4.Parling 5.Launchberry
6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrel
11.Foden 12.Barrit 13.Tuilagi 14.Ashton 15.Brown

16.Vunipola 17.Youngs 18.Wilson 19.Lawes 20.Haskell 21.Care 22.Flood 23.???

So yea only 4 positions that have potential question marks over them; hooker do we start Hartley or Youngs ( I think SL will go Hartley but i'd go Youngs), half backs are pretty much 50/50 between any of the combo's, and then who'll get the 23 shirt (Joseph, Twelvetrees, Wade??).

yappysnap wrote:So the starting team will probably be:

1.Marler 2.Hartley 3.Cole
4.Parling 5.Launchberry
6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrel
11.Foden 12.Barrit 13.Tuilagi 14.Ashton 15.Brown

16.Vunipola 17.Youngs 18.Wilson 19.Lawes 20.Haskell 21.Care 22.Flood 23.???

So yea only 4 positions that have potential question marks over them; hooker do we start Hartley or Youngs ( I think SL will go Hartley but i'd go Youngs), half backs are pretty much 50/50 between any of the combo's, and then who'll get the 23 shirt (Joseph, Twelvetrees, Wade??).

I dont like the Idea of Foden being switched to the wing to be honest. I was'nt to thrilled with brown playing on the wing in the Ais. Although it did not work out too bad in the end.

If you are playing Brown at full back, then Foden on the bench.

Poor old Calum - can't catch a break at the moment. There again Botha can't catch a rugby ball, so I don't know what to think.

He's caught two breaks so far that I can think of.

I think that hartley will start,don't forget he was skipper on his last outing.young's to come onfor last 20 and tear it up.

I would have much rather seen Deacon in the squad than Botha as I've stated before.

sickofwendy - Youngs did so well in the AI's I'd actually be pretty surprised if Lancaster didn't stick with him. Definitely good to have those two as options in the squad, we just need Webber to find some fitness to add another more experienced option alongside Clark.

Cant believe feckin Botha is in. What a complete waste.
He wont play...so this would have been a great chance to give Slater..Kruis or Kitchener a bit of time with the seniors...

Or is the idea that Botha just covers the bench and its no loss if he doesnt play...but the youngs guys will defo get gametime for the saxons...

I just think that SL will start with Dylan as he is 1 of the senior players and was/is? the v-c.I'm .nt saying I agree but it's what I think will happen.I would also liked to have seen deacon back in the mix,lawes could learn a lot from him.

Don't see what the all the fuss is about having Deacon in there. We've done perfectly well with the youngsters so far and Palmer has been in and around the squad for experience, plus they all get a load more at their clubs throughout the season. We don't need any more journeymen in the EPS for "experience" or "quality of training" or any other lame excuses.

Agree that Hartley will more then likely start, but it's great that after a shaky beginning Youngs has done more then enough to cause a lot of question marks over Hartleys selection.

I don't have a problem with a full back moving to the wing, especially Foden as he's the quickest of our fb options. I know we all panic about the minutae of the positions but these are professional players, if they can't learn how to play on the wing after playing full back for three or four seasons (after moving from scrum half) then you have to worry.

I agree that - at least in the long term - the full back / wing thing is not something to get worked up around. There are good reasons for having two players with "full back" skills on the pitch at international level. Players who spend time at full back for their clubs tend to be better defenders and better kickers than those who play exclusively at wing. Both of those things are more important at international level than at club level, so having two players with those skills on the pitch is important. The 2003 RWC team had Lewsey and Robinson, for instance (I know Robinson was still mainly playing wing at that point, but his skill set adapted to FB pretty seamlessly).

The downside is that, as there are at least 3 very good specialist EQP full backs at the moment, none of them has much experience of playing at wing. So they look a bit out of place now, but I think Lancaster's aim is to give them the exposure in the position so that come 2015 he can combine them as he sees fit without having to worry about it. Of course, it's also possible that someone like Rob Miller (or even Mat Tait) who's already comfortable in multiple positions could break into the squad and give him more options.

Or indeed Jonny May, Elliot Daly or Chisholm.

So where does that leave the likes of Cristian Wade?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So where does that leave the likes of Cristian Wade?

Learning to defend? There must be a good reason why Lancaster, Catt and Farrell haven't chosen to put him in the team, and it's probably to do with what he does off the ball. Wade is an outrageous talent ball in hand, but (a bit like Varndell before him) it looks to me that his defensive play - especially the positioning - is not yet good enough for international rugby. I do also wonder whether the coaches think his lines and support running need more work. The defensive systems are that much tighter at international level and the margins are that much finer. At club level he can rely on his pace, but to be an international you have to work harder to be in the right place at the right time (which is one of the reasons Ashton is so highly regarded).

I propose that he might learn to defend better at the highest level, where it becomes a necessity

which is one of the reasons Ashton is so highly regarded

But Poorfour - HIS defending is absolutely attrocious...he actually looks like being scared of the contact at times...at least Wade might have positioning queries...but gets stuck in...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

which is one of the reasons Ashton is so highly regarded

But Poorfour - HIS defending is absolutely attrocious...he actually looks like being scared of the contact at times...at least Wade might have positioning queries...but gets stuck in...

Sorry, I meant Ashton's support lines in attack. I'd not really noticed his defending - but then I also can't remember seeing him at fault for conceding a try.

He was at fault against NZ, that's what comes to mind. He has also picked up an AP ban for consistently poor tackling technique

Ashton's defending really isn't good enough I don't think, he looks like he's frightened of contact sometimes, and likes coming in as the second tackler.

Cast your mind back to 2012 6N, Eng v France. Didn't Tuilagi's try come courtesy of a midfield turnover forced by a big Ashton hit?

Rinsure then i need to see that!

Ashton is a cracking winger...i do rate him...but it annoys me when people say Wade (who i think is better than Ashton offensively) cant make the team due to his poor defence..yet Ashton is fine...when he genuinely looks like he doesnt like the physical stuff...the one v NZ was just another in a long line of examples...