Group of Death...

Pool A was/had to have a Top 4 side in there.

But who do you think are the most unhappiest with regard the fact that both England and Wales are in the same group with Australia.

Personally, I think it may be England. I know it is a long way off, but England will know that Wales can as easily beat them as they can beat Wales. It's simply down to the fact that they play each other every year in the 6 Nations. There will be nothing in it, barring any major injuries before the game.

Australia, being a top 4, was always going to get a team capable of beating them, but they must be a little annoyed to get both England and Wales in the same group, as it does give them a challenge, where either of the teams could beat them. England with the better recent record against them, but Wales although losing haven't been miles away.

As for Wales, as I said earlier, the fact the AI where a complete disaster has meant they have been resound to the fact that they where going to have a tough group. I also think, they may have preferred being in with Ireland and France as they play them year in year out, and have the belief they can beat them, but with that not the case, I think the group with England is more preferential than getting a Top 4 with either Argentina or Samoa, both teams which prove to be Welsh banana skins.

So to go back to my point. I think England are secretly more upset with the draw than Wales. Its their World Cup in 2015 (hosts that is) and face two teams who they lose to as often as the win against.

What's your thoughts...

I actually think it is a good pool for England.

There will be no complacency for one thing!
They will be battle hardened for the knock out stages.
They can and have beaten both Wales and Australia, and if you want to win the world cup (our aim surely) then the idea is that you are the best in the world - I expect this team to have the ambition to feel they are favourites in the group and that they can beat any team put in front of them including the All Blacks.

Maybe they won't actually achieve all that, but I think we should be aiming to win that group anyway. Yes it will be tough, but that's kind of the point of winning a world cup isn't it?

It really is only the group of death for one of them.

England must be worried. It is "thier" tournament and they might get knocked out int he first round.

Having said that, Wales or Oz could easily be the ones to go!

Wales have to be unhappiest, with missing out Samoa and Argentina.

IMO if the group were played tomorrow I think it would go...

Aus v England 50/50
Wales v England 50/50
Aus v Wales 90/10 Aus

Realistically there could be a scenario where all 3 teams had 2 wins each, and Wales would definately be the one to miss out on try/points!!

Gland it's years away!!!

surely Scotland are in a group of death?

Ps what is this drawer? sock drawer? If so everyone should be afraid of Joe Marler's - stinks to high heaven

I think Oz would be the most disappointed, as although they can beat both teams they've drawn teams who will be very tough (as opposed to maybe drawing Argentina and Fiji for example).

Wales knew they'd have a tough draw no matter what, and I think this group is preferrable to some we could have gotten, with both teams we are probably more likely to lose against but could well beat.

England will be a bit disappointed but would have rathered Oz than SA/NZ IMO and know all about Wales.

With Wales being in the same group as England. It will be very interesting over the next 3 6ns. Too see who gets the upper hand going into the Rugby World Cup.

England and Wales are about neck and neck when it comes to games won an lost. But if England can continue to play like they did on Saturday against the All Blacks. Then England could well be a power full team come 2015.

Every team is building towards the 2015 RWC with younger and better players coming through the ranks. I dont think any team will be so reconiseable when the world cup comes around.

I dont think that any team will be afraid of any other team, but each team will have a massive respect for each other. Which will make it about the best RWC their has been.

LondonTiger wrote:
Ps what is this drawer? sock drawer?

Doh... fingers faster on keyboard than brain is to react

Who is most concerned about the draw?

England isn't and won't be. They fully believe in themselves against both Australia and Wales when the chips are down and the reward is big enough. Not saying they shouldn't be worried but they aren't.

Australia - by the time the WC comes around, they won't be overly worried by Wales but will fear England at home. But only as a challenge that will be tough. They'll respect the English but will come with ambitions to win the WC, so they won't be that anxious.

Wales - they'll fear nobody and everybody in the one breath. They won't fear the English or Australians, they'll see it as a real chance. But, they'll fret more about the detail than the other two. They'll worry about tactics and correct players and hope that the players will keep trying if things go badly - or hope that they don't lose focus if things are going well. Wales will fret more about the detail

For the love of god - England have absolutely no fear of their group what so ever. We are in it to win it. We have a young talented squad developing nicely. The only part of the RWC we are concerned about is the final.

I'm pretty sure Aus have the same plan. I'd hope Wales would too (mind you they should fear meeting Aus in the knock-out stages).

Barney McGrew did it wrote:For the love of god - England have absolutely no fear of their group what so ever. We are in it to win it. We have a young talented squad developing nicely. The only part of the RWC we are concerned about is the final.

I'm pretty sure Aus have the same plan. I'd hope Wales would too (mind you they should fear meeting Aus in the knock-out stages).

I'd have to think that one out, but I thought it impossible to meet in the knock-out stages if you are in the same group. I thought the path is if in the same group, you can only meet again in the Final (or 3rd/4th Play off).

There's 3YEARS worth of 6 nations, 2 years AI's and summer tours, players retiring and young players coming thru before then. Way way to early for all this talk....

Well, if it was played tomorrow then Wales, being 3rd seeds and therefore massive underdogs, I think would do OK. We're never good as favorites. That's just the way the team has always been. Weak psychologically. We can't seem to handle expectation. So, as the 3rd tier and therefore the team most likely to finish 3rd and not qualify, I think that will suit our mentally just right. We'd have a point to prove.

Of course, if we actually do OK in the next 3 years, go in to the tournament as 4th, 5th, 6th in the world rankings, go in as favorites to beat England, then it will probably all come apart in dramatic fashion!

sirBiggles wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:For the love of god - England have absolutely no fear of their group what so ever. We are in it to win it. We have a young talented squad developing nicely. The only part of the RWC we are concerned about is the final.

I'm pretty sure Aus have the same plan. I'd hope Wales would too (mind you they should fear meeting Aus in the knock-out stages).

I'd have to think that one out, but I thought it impossible to meet in the knock-out stages if you are in the same group. I thought the path is if in the same group, you can only meet again in the Final (or 3rd/4th Play off).

Yeah, that's correct biggsy. One of the few reasons for wanting to draw NZ in the group stage.

Hope it's Australia first. We will be buzzing after the opening ceremony and keen to deliver a big performance. Get that one out the way and will hopefully qualify with that platform.

All 3 for me.

I think all of them have the potential to lose one game against each other.

all 3 for sure

We are 3 years away from a RWC so speculation at the moment is somewhat irreleavent.
All 3 sides are capable of beating the other and RWC`s are different from other
matches.
Teams forget the normal games and play,negative,riskless Rugby the so called magic RWC Formula.
When you see two of the greatest exponents of running Rugby grind out a one point victorty in a Final.It is hardly an advert for what is supposed to be THE Worlds Premier Tournament.
RWC is considered to be the "Holy Grail " of Rugby if you have`nt won one your rubbish.
Or so they seem to think

emack

In all fairness France could've thrown the ball touchline to touchline, scored tries from their own 22 and played every trick play under the sun and Joubert wouldv'e called them back for something.

I don't think anyone begrudges NZ the cup, they have been the best side in the world for a few years now, but that final was an attrocitiy of the game!!

You couldn't pick a stronger group... It is more than likely that all three teams qualified will be in the top five of the IRB rankings come the tournament.

maestegmafia wrote:You couldn't pick a stronger group... It is more than likely that all three teams qualified will be in the top five of the IRB rankings come the tournament.

Do you think Wales will replace France in the top 5? It's a long way away, but I wouldn't say it's 'more than likely'. It's a possibility.

It is a strong group though. Should be pretty nail-biting stuff.

I think the 6N will have a very big effect on that group, in general England do not fear Aus at all, Aus are capable of beating them but England have their number.

Wales on the other hand strulle against Aus, even when Aus are at the lowest Ive seen them for 10years plus.

Wales V England go through trends, up until 2005 and before proffesionalism actually got to wales England were totally dominant, post 2005 though Wales seem to have the upper hand, leading 4-3 in 6N games and 6-5 in all games since, so the 6N before the world cup will highlight if Wales have the confidence to beat the English in England (possibly)

Wales are capable of beating England as is the other way around, but Wales confidence has to be high to compete, if it is they can qualify or win the group, if it isn't 3rd is the best they'll do, but for me the whole group hinges on England v Wales

Wales havent been too far off the pace with Australia though have they BMC...!

It has to be said that although Wales have lost to Australia seven times in a row, they have all been very close games and it is not unreasonable to think Wales will beat them before the RWC.

As you say England have not had the upper hand over Wales in the last seven years. Though again they are always pretty close games. I see those three teams as pretty evenly matched. All three have had very good form as well as very bad over the last ten years.

I don't see that as 'more than likely' maesteg. Wales, Argentina and Ireland could all see significant improvement and I expect the top 8 will be more of a constant with the gaps closing and more movement within that group. By 2015 I think it will be a close call between any of them. The biggest issue will be whether Wales and Ireland in particular will start beating SH sides regularly. I'm kind of dangerously assuming England will.

I think it adds a lot of spice to the tournament!
To be the best you have to beat the rest. It is an awful long way off. I can't see Wales being afraid of England at the next 6 Nations let alone a WC several years away. The team sheet is going to look very different for Wales when they get their injured players back. Can't wait for the 6N!

I'd actually say at present with what the Aus have at their disposal England and Wales are far better and should be beating them regularly, but then this AI has proved me wrong.

Wales are worrying around Aus, we can match them in every aspect but something seems to fall to peices and I have never seen an international team look so scared of losing a game as Wales were last week!!

The lineout was a complete joke, it turned into a non lift slap competitioin WTF!! from the 70th minute it was obvious Wales were scared, I turned to a mate and told him Wales would lose guarentee'd on the 70th minute, I could almost see the players hands shaking!!

England Wales will dictate which of those teams will qualify/win the group, I hope it's the last game up and both are home and dry with the game deciding group winner, but in reality it will probably decide if Wales are competitive or not!

I think Aus will be the team that drops out, Wales will pick up and I think England will push on from where they are at the moment plus it's pretty much home advantage for both teams.

If I were an Aussie I'd be very worried.

Look at it from an Australian point of view. They got probably the worse draw possible.

England and Australia would be most concerned.

Na, we're not, well I'm not. It is a group with good sides in, but to win the cup you have to beat the side in front of you, and a hard route I'm sure wil be more satisfying than a group of ease....

Remind me of that please in 3 years time if we get knocked out at the group stage!!!

I wouldn't worry too much either OzT, Australia is likely to improve as much as any of the other two.

If you go into the competition with the thoughts of "Well, let me see - if we beat them, then we might avoid them other lads in the next round, and save some players that we'll be needing to keep fit to have any chance; I mean, depending on whether we can actually get out of our group in the first place"

If you're looking at the permutations, and trying to avoid 'big' sides for as long as possible then your determination to win the Cup is only mostly self-deceptive bluff and wheeze.

Sides that come with the intention of winning don't really have too much time to devote to permutations, they're too busy honing their team.

England and Australia have won it before. Whatever form they're in in advance of the WC they'll still turn up with the Cup in mind - clearly and distinctly. They'll expect a tough game from each other and Wales but sights will be on the following rounds as a natural. No fear, just respect and getting the job done.

Wales have yet to win one. They'll have belief of course but they'll be doing permutations in their heads because it is the unachieved on the table yet one more time. Nerves.

Remember that AUS have Horwill, O'Connor and Cooper to come back into the side.

Give the backs decent ball and they will run riot on anyone.

Genia, Cooper, Beale, O'Connor, Ioane, Barnes, McCabe, Ashley-Cooper are all world class and this kid Folau is very highly rated in league.

IMO whoever wins the AUS vs. ENG game is going to get to the final and may even win the whole thing.

They have a relatively easy route to the final and won't meet NZ or SA until the final.

fa0019 wrote:IMO whoever wins the AUS vs. ENG game is going to get to the final and may even win the whole thing.

They have a relatively easy route to the final and won't meet NZ or SA until the final.

Even if Wales beat both...?

Its a tight group. We played some poor rugby this Autumn, very very poor. With a lot of injuries, but still nearly beat Australia, we certainly got a lot closer to them than England. Discounting Wales would be ridiculous based solely on their appalling current form.

Looking forward to the England versus Australia game. Should be a cracking group decider. Love playing the Aussies, especially at world cups.

Hope it's the last game in the pool stages with both sides on maximum points.

We've got idea who's going to be in the sides, it's 2.5 years away. People get injured, out of form, replaced by 16 years olds, etc. Trying to work out who would be in trouble then is impossible.

Regarding who is the least happy? Well Wales knew they would get a 1st and 2nd seed so it doesn't really matter. They'd be expecting something like this.

For both the others the 'hardest' 3rd seed would of course be Wales (as things stand now). As for the rest...well they don't really matter do they? I'm a bit peeved with it as it means there's not going to be an upset as any of the three could go out. Unless Fiji (probably go through)

maestegmafia wrote:Discounting Wales would be ridiculous based solely on their appalling current form.

+1

Apart from the fact that 3 years is along time in Rugby,every group throws up surprises.
2015 will be no different RWCs are different one or two bad results and it`s good bye for another 4 years.
The chokers tag is still stuck on the ALL BLACKS despite them being THE most
successful side in RWCs on matches lost/won because there victories were at home.I wrote last year BEFOREthe tournament was played the AB`s were in a no win situation.So it`s proved the only reason they won according to the conspiracy theorists is because the Ref was bought shades of 1995 S/F?
One side no one expects will pull of a surprise win and all the clever calculations
will go out the window.
Wales and England ANYWHERE that is never a given for either of them,Australia are very much a RWC side.
Nearly always reach at least the Semi stage,3 Finals,2 wins only a fool brushes of that pedigree.

how is that pedigree really any different form englands though emack..

Add to that england being at home..

A fool may brush off the oz pedigree, but again a fool may brush off englands..

I agree BUT England have had home advantage before and lost.On only one occasion have they reached the final by winning ALL there matches 2003.
The only time they won a RWC ,this side is not yet ANYWHERE near as good as 2003.It took SCW nearly 8 years to build it and there were alot of losses on the way too.
This side has potential and a sensible Coach/Manager and will build on one match at a time principle.
Come 2015 they MAY be there or there abouts before that they have to replicate saturdays result consistently versus SH sides as did 2003 side.
Myself if I ventured an opinion on RWC`s 2019 may be more realistic for England.
Myself ,I wish them well in every match except versus ABs or on the odd occassion Scotland.RWC`s mean nothing to me whoever holds them including the ABs.
It also annoys me greatly they sacrificed a 3Ns title for a RWC and set a precedent hopefully no other AB Coach will follow.

profitius wrote:Look at it from an Australian point of view. They got probably the worse draw possible.

England and Australia would be most concerned.

+1

Wales can't get any worse. But their lack of consistency must be a concern. Although consistently bad in the Autumn.

England are hopefully on a steady upward curve. Australia have done well given their injury crisis & its the end of a long season for them.

In at least the last two World Cups, the opening game has been the host against the third seed in their pool (France Vs Argentina in 2007, New Zealand Vs Tonga in 2011). If that trend continues, the Cup will open with England Vs Wales. That would be a huge opening game to the tournament, and would really set the winner up for the rest of the group stages.

Personally, my initial reaction was that this was a tough draw, but I don't mind that. If we can't get out this group (or indeed any group) then we're just not good enough to win the World Cup. At least this way we have a chance to set a marker down early by coming out of a tough group. In 2011 despite winning all 4 games we never really got going in the group stages, and promptly crashed out to France in the quarter-finals. Contrast that to 2007 when we had two must-win games against Samoa and Tonga to close the pool and managed to turn it on and win both with bonus points, before coming into the quarter-finals on a high and catching a previously unchallenged Australia (who took maximum points in their pool).

Emack the pedigree of 3 finals and 1 win compared to 3 finals and 2 wins isnt much different- its splitting hairs..

home advantage is an advantage..

current form is meaningless really- well almost anyway- we are at a platform position..

both are playing ok but not consitant, both can beat anyone, but also lose as well.

both have potential. i would argue that england have more though considering we have such a young team .

i dont think anyone could tell us with any authority who will finish higher in the group(oz of Eng) at present

Pedigree is a non team and meaningless!!!

term not team

Teams with plenty of dog have pedigree, chum.

from a welshman pedigree has to offcourse be meaningless.(JOKE!!!!")

Anyway you replied... hehe

I would say it depends on the fixture list. Whomever faces Australia the earliest will have the advantage. Let's hope Wales face them first, beat them so Aus will only have England standing in their way. And when Aus are at that point they're tough to beat. I would love if both England and Wales beat Australia though.

Mikey you are talking on the lines that aus have allready qualified..

Its not just about dem pal...