serious debate how can England be favourites for the group of death?

Over the last decade thats where we will take our facts from no further because players over that time will not be involved.

So the last decade Wales have been better than England not talking about grandslams or who claimed more Southern Hemisphere scalps!
IM TALKING HEAD TO HEAD! WALES HAVE BEEN ON THE WINNING SIDE V ENGLAND THE MOST IN THE LAST DECADE FACT!

Australia have also been on the winning side the most over the last decade v Wales and England FACT!

So why all this hype fro the English players,coaches,fans and media that England will win the group?
Please dont tell me its from good old fashioned "positive thinking will make us win".
We all know that only facts matter and the FACTS are massively against England.

So please i ask you to counter act my FACTS, dont sling mud , give me facts back on why im wrong.

have you seen Oz lately?

Why would you look back over a whole decade?  How much do the current squads and coaching teams of those three teams resemble what was about 5 years ago, let alone 10?

Seriously?
Well look at this years 6Ns teams & how many of the welsh team are in form?
Webb & North? after that your struggling but as we all know the squads will & should be a bit different.
Let's wait until after the Autumn Internationals & take another look.

The team that stands up in this pool will have the easiest run to the final.

I havent seen any favoritism for England....everything i see says its a bloody tough group and any of them could qualify??

England beat Aus and Wales at home in the previous games between the sides.

I'd currently back England to beat any side at home except SA and NZ. Hopefully by WC time these two will be properly in reach as England will probably have to beat one of them to win the whole thing.

The AIs will be interesting for lots of reasons.

Is this a lets slag England off thread?

They are favourites because the British media that we all love, cough, are building them up to be, it's not the players fault, it is not the fans fault, although a lot of fans will buy into this favourite tag, and thats the thing in this country, and in country I mean GB, we do it all the time in Wales to our players, they start playing well and then all of a sudden they are the best in the world, as soon as they fail, they are overpaid lazy barstewards. So, England are being classed as favourites because the Telegraph, Guardian and pundits are saying they are, for me, at the moment you cannot put a fag paper between the three, England, Wales, Australia, forget world rankings, man for man they are all as good as each other, and it will all depend on, tactics, the roll of a ball, and lets not forget, THE REFEREE.

Yep - as long as we don't get Steve Welsh we'll be laughing

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Over the last decade thats where we will take our facts from no further because players over that time will not be involved.

So the last decade Wales have been better than England not talking about grandslams or who claimed more Southern Hemisphere scalps!
IM TALKING HEAD TO HEAD! WALES HAVE BEEN ON THE WINNING SIDE V ENGLAND THE MOST IN THE LAST DECADE FACT!

Australia have also been on the winning side the most over the last decade v Wales and England FACT!

So why all this hype fro  the English players,coaches,fans and media that England will win the group?
Please dont tell me its from good old fashioned "positive thinking will make us win".
We all know that only facts matter and the FACTS are massively against England.

So please i ask you to counter act my FACTS, dont sling mud , give me facts back on why im wrong.

We are at home, not at a neutral venue. This is a colossal advantage. Head to heads over the past aren't hugely influential, recent form is and we have won our last match agaisnt both Aus and Wales and one drubbing in NZ aside are in good form. But mostly, playing you both at Twickers is a huge advantage you are utterly ignoring

England have home advantage. Something you conveniently ignore.

Last 10 matches is has been 5 wins apiece -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_England_and_Wales

We could spin things on it's head and say that Wales have only won 2 out of the last 6 matches at Twickenham - if we go further back it's even worse - I am just being generous.

Also of course England won the last match at Twickenham.

As for Wales -

this is their record vs Australia -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_Australia_and_Wales

9 consecutive wins for Australia....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_Australia_and_England

England vs Australia

Last 10 matches - 6-4 to Australia though England have won 2/3 at London in the last 3 matches.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Over the last decade thats where we will take our facts from no further because players over that time will not be involved.

So the last decade Wales have been better than England not talking about grandslams or who claimed more Southern Hemisphere scalps!
IM TALKING HEAD TO HEAD! WALES HAVE BEEN ON THE WINNING SIDE V ENGLAND THE MOST IN THE LAST DECADE FACT!

Australia have also been on the winning side the most over the last decade v Wales and England FACT!

So why all this hype fro  the English players,coaches,fans and media that England will win the group?
Please dont tell me its from good old fashioned "positive thinking will make us win".
We all know that only facts matter and the FACTS are massively against England.

So please i ask you to counter act my FACTS, dont sling mud , give me facts back on why im wrong.

Does form 5 years ago have any baring on future results? No

Does form 1 year ago have any baring on future results? Probably yes.

In 2007 SA had beaten England only once in the last 9 occasions. Didn't mean they were favourites into their RWC pool in 2007 and the subsequent final. When the tide turns, it turns.

Reasons why England are favourties

a) They are at home for both matches.
b) AUS and WAL will play away.
c) England beat both Wales and Australia in their last meet.
d) England are higher ranked than both, and ranking improves by 3+ points when they are at home.
e) new scrum laws have hit Wales hard.
f) AUS have a lot of internal problems which simply don't look like going away.

None of the above means they will top the group. It just means on a pre match analysis without knowing injuries or lineups you would think England would be favourites in both matches.

One other thing....

Wales have only won twice in Twickenham since 1988.... that's 2 victories in 16 years.

They won in 2012 but have lost 3 out of the last 4.

I can't see how the facts support the case that England would be underdogs. To be honest I don't think it matters as the favourites tag comes with its own pressures i.e. MS in 2013 (albeit away from home).

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is this a lets slag England off thread?

Pretty much.

It's going to be a fascinating group, very close either way. I would give England the edge simply because of home advantage.

Performance over the last decade means nothing. Performance in 2015 is all that matters.

mid_gen wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is this a lets slag England off thread?

Pretty much.

It's going to be a fascinating group, very close either way. I would give England the edge simply because of home advantage.

Performance over the last decade means nothing. Performance in 2015 is all that matters.

I often find the OP's posts funny really. He doesnt exactly do subtle

beshocked wrote:England have home advantage. Something you conveniently ignore.

Last 10 matches is has been 5 wins apiece -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_England_and_Wales

We could spin things on it's head and say that Wales have only won 2 out of the last 6 matches at Twickenham - if we go further back it's even worse - I am just being generous.

Also of course England won the last match at Twickenham.

As for Wales -

this is their record vs Australia -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_Australia_and_Wales

9 consecutive wins for Australia....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_Australia_and_England

England vs Australia

Last 10 matches - 6-4 to Australia though England have won 2/3 at London in the last 3 matches.

Good post beshocked. Sorting through the real information is more effective than stating 'fact' after every statement!

Anyway, I rather England be classed a favourites, they will have all the pressure on them to live up to that tag, Wales can just go in there and do their thing, they might win which will be a cat amongst the pigeons for some, not me though, or they might lose, which is expected, but for me I do not think that playing in Twickenham is that much of a bother for these Welsh players, the Twickenham factor will be more of a burden to England, with HOME fans expecting a HOME win, the pressure will be on, I do not think that Wales will be over awed at the fact of playing England in Twickenham, it's the English player that will have to live up to the hype of being favourites and this could go against them, I am not worried as a Welsh fan with Wales having to go there and play them, in fact I am expecting Wales to win.

Thanks bluestonevedder.

Lorddowlais if you think that Wales will have no pressure on them then you are sadly mistaken. The pressure will be there for all but at least for England they will be at home (which means no travelling,familiar ground and regime etc).

You don't think there will be added satisfaction of beating England on their own patch?

Let's be honest England,Australia and Wales will be expecting to reach the quarter finals at least.

Everyone knows this is a very tough pool. As for pressure - surely this is what these players should be prepared for? Also talking about pressure - it's the Aussies you need to worry about.....they have had Wales' number in the last 9 occasions.

Wales are on the decline, England are on the up and the Aussies although flimsy are always a nightmare to beat.

That's why England are favourites. Results over the last decade matter little.

For Wales to progress in my book Gatland needs to be bold in the AIs and depart from his standard picks (A Jones, Jenkins, Phillips, Roberts et al). These guys may well roar back into form in time for the World Cup, but at the moment there are other guys playing better rugby who need more exposure to international rugby. Lancaster appears to have cast his net wider thus far and the English appear to have a slightly fresher look.

I haven't seen the odds, and England certainly shouldn't be overwhelming favourites, but I would give them the edge. Just a matter of opinion of course, but as a Scot I don't really have a particularly strong preference either way.

Anyone who isn't Welsh think that Wales should be favourites for the group?

beshocked wrote:Thanks bluestonevedder.

Lorddowlais if you think that Wales will have no pressure on them then you are sadly mistaken. The pressure will be there for all but at least for England they will be at home (which means no travelling,familiar ground and regime etc).

You don't think there will be added satisfaction of beating England on their own patch?

Let's be honest England,Australia and Wales will be expecting to reach the quarter finals at least.

Everyone knows this is a very tough pool. As for pressure - surely this is what these players should be prepared for? Also talking about pressure - it's the Aussies you need to worry about.....they have had Wales' number in the last 9 occasions.

Thats why beating England will see us through.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are on the decline, England are on the up and the Aussies although flimsy are always a nightmare to beat.

That's why England are favourites. Results over the last decade matter little.

For Wales to progress in my book Gatland needs to be bold in the AIs and depart from his standard picks (A Jones, Jenkins, Phillips, Roberts et al). These guys may well roar back into form in time for the World Cup, but at the moment there are other guys playing better rugby who need more exposure to international rugby. Lancaster appears to have cast his net wider thus far and the English appear to have a slightly fresher look.

I haven't seen the odds, and England certainly shouldn't be overwhelming favourites, but I would give them the edge. Just a matter of opinion of course, but as a Scot I don't really have a particularly strong preference either way.

Anyone who isn't Welsh think that Wales should be favourites for the group?

Seriously, where do you get that info from ? Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins are perhaps in decline, but Wales as a whole, I do not think so.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are on the decline, England are on the up and the Aussies although flimsy are always a nightmare to beat.

That's why England are favourites. Results over the last decade matter little.

For Wales to progress in my book Gatland needs to be bold in the AIs and depart from his standard picks (A Jones, Jenkins, Phillips, Roberts et al). These guys may well roar back into form in time for the World Cup, but at the moment there are other guys playing better rugby who need more exposure to international rugby. Lancaster appears to have cast his net wider thus far and the English appear to have a slightly fresher look.

I haven't seen the odds, and England certainly shouldn't be overwhelming favourites, but I would give them the edge. Just a matter of opinion of course, but as a Scot I don't really have a particularly strong preference either way.

Anyone who isn't Welsh think that Wales should be favourites for the group?

Seriously, where do you get that info from ? Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins are perhaps in decline, but Wales as a whole, I do not think so.

Wales require big front foot dominance in the scrum to support their game. They got a lot of penalties that way.

New rules lost that edge and Wales have suffered because of it.

Adam Jones went from being no.1 in the world to no. 2 in his own country on the rules change alone.

And let the Wales v England Slagging match begin....well done OP you have achieved your goal....

Is this the new 'bickering' thread?

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are on the decline, England are on the up and the Aussies although flimsy are always a nightmare to beat.

That's why England are favourites. Results over the last decade matter little.

For Wales to progress in my book Gatland needs to be bold in the AIs and depart from his standard picks (A Jones, Jenkins, Phillips, Roberts et al). These guys may well roar back into form in time for the World Cup, but at the moment there are other guys playing better rugby who need more exposure to international rugby. Lancaster appears to have cast his net wider thus far and the English appear to have a slightly fresher look.

I haven't seen the odds, and England certainly shouldn't be overwhelming favourites, but I would give them the edge. Just a matter of opinion of course, but as a Scot I don't really have a particularly strong preference either way.

Anyone who isn't Welsh think that Wales should be favourites for the group?

Seriously, where do you get that info from ? Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins are perhaps in decline, but Wales as a whole, I do not think so.

Just your performances in the last 6 Nations, coupled with your 3rd place finish.

Agree with beshocked, home advantage! Will be massive for England and Lancaster seems to be level headed and seems to ground his team well. The media hype will probably be used in a positive way within his team rather than the them thinking they have it in the bag. Haven't give much thought to the permutations but I have England as favourites. It's just a vibe I have.

Defo with the deluded one on this - Wales are favourites, England underdogs. Rock on Tommy.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are on the decline, England are on the up and the Aussies although flimsy are always a nightmare to beat.

That's why England are favourites. Results over the last decade matter little.

For Wales to progress in my book Gatland needs to be bold in the AIs and depart from his standard picks (A Jones, Jenkins, Phillips, Roberts et al). These guys may well roar back into form in time for the World Cup, but at the moment there are other guys playing better rugby who need more exposure to international rugby. Lancaster appears to have cast his net wider thus far and the English appear to have a slightly fresher look.

I haven't seen the odds, and England certainly shouldn't be overwhelming favourites, but I would give them the edge. Just a matter of opinion of course, but as a Scot I don't really have a particularly strong preference either way.

Anyone who isn't Welsh think that Wales should be favourites for the group?

Seriously, where do you get that info from ? Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins are perhaps in decline, but Wales as a whole, I do not think so.

Wales require big front foot dominance in the scrum to support their game. They got a lot of penalties that way.

New rules lost that edge and Wales have suffered because of it.

Adam Jones went from being no.1 in the world to no. 2 in his own country on the rules change alone.

I agree, but we now have a very good tighthead in Samson Lee, who is already more than holding his own, by the time the world cup comes around he will only be 24yrs old and at such a young age will still have about 20 caps to his name.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are on the decline, England are on the up and the Aussies although flimsy are always a nightmare to beat.

That's why England are favourites. Results over the last decade matter little.

For Wales to progress in my book Gatland needs to be bold in the AIs and depart from his standard picks (A Jones, Jenkins, Phillips, Roberts et al). These guys may well roar back into form in time for the World Cup, but at the moment there are other guys playing better rugby who need more exposure to international rugby. Lancaster appears to have cast his net wider thus far and the English appear to have a slightly fresher look.

I haven't seen the odds, and England certainly shouldn't be overwhelming favourites, but I would give them the edge. Just a matter of opinion of course, but as a Scot I don't really have a particularly strong preference either way.

Anyone who isn't Welsh think that Wales should be favourites for the group?

Seriously, where do you get that info from ? Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins are perhaps in decline, but Wales as a whole, I do not think so.

Wales require big front foot dominance in the scrum to support their game. They got a lot of penalties that way.

New rules lost that edge and Wales have suffered because of it.

Adam Jones went from being no.1 in the world to no. 2 in his own country on the rules change alone.

I agree, but we now have a very good tighthead in Samson Lee, who is already more than holding his own, by the time the world cup comes around he will only be 24yrs old and at such a young age will still have about 20 caps to his name.

Yeah he looks decent, holds his own but doesn't give the dominance that Jones used to... give him time, Jones was shocking for the first 5 years of his test career.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are on the decline, England are on the up and the Aussies although flimsy are always a nightmare to beat.

That's why England are favourites. Results over the last decade matter little.

For Wales to progress in my book Gatland needs to be bold in the AIs and depart from his standard picks (A Jones, Jenkins, Phillips, Roberts et al). These guys may well roar back into form in time for the World Cup, but at the moment there are other guys playing better rugby who need more exposure to international rugby. Lancaster appears to have cast his net wider thus far and the English appear to have a slightly fresher look.

I haven't seen the odds, and England certainly shouldn't be overwhelming favourites, but I would give them the edge. Just a matter of opinion of course, but as a Scot I don't really have a particularly strong preference either way.

Anyone who isn't Welsh think that Wales should be favourites for the group?

Seriously, where do you get that info from ? Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins are perhaps in decline, but Wales as a whole, I do not think so.

Wales require big front foot dominance in the scrum to support their game. They got a lot of penalties that way.

New rules lost that edge and Wales have suffered because of it.

Adam Jones went from being no.1 in the world to no. 2 in his own country on the rules change alone.

I agree, but we now have a very good tighthead in Samson Lee, who is already more than holding his own, by the time the world cup comes around he will only be 24yrs old and at such a young age will still have about 20 caps to his name.

Yeah he looks decent, holds his own but doesn't give the dominance that Jones used to... give him time, Jones was shocking for the first 5 years of his test career.

He is a lot better than adam Jones was at the same stage, I remember when Adam Jones used to get subbed off after half an hour as he was not fit enough, with a decent second rower behind him, like AWJ, then Samson Lee could be a real threat.

with a decent second rower behind him, like AWJ,

Whats the fascination with AJW?? Ive just never seen what people see in him? Gough etc were heads and shoulders above him....and surely Wales must have better younger lads coming through...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is this a lets slag England off thread?

Makes a change from a lets slag Wales off thread.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Wales are on the decline, England are on the up and the Aussies although flimsy are always a nightmare to beat.

That's why England are favourites. Results over the last decade matter little.

For Wales to progress in my book Gatland needs to be bold in the AIs and depart from his standard picks (A Jones, Jenkins, Phillips, Roberts et al). These guys may well roar back into form in time for the World Cup, but at the moment there are other guys playing better rugby who need more exposure to international rugby. Lancaster appears to have cast his net wider thus far and the English appear to have a slightly fresher look.

I haven't seen the odds, and England certainly shouldn't be overwhelming favourites, but I would give them the edge. Just a matter of opinion of course, but as a Scot I don't really have a particularly strong preference either way.

Anyone who isn't Welsh think that Wales should be favourites for the group?

Seriously, where do you get that info from ? Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins are perhaps in decline, but Wales as a whole, I do not think so.

Wales require big front foot dominance in the scrum to support their game. They got a lot of penalties that way.

New rules lost that edge and Wales have suffered because of it.

Adam Jones went from being no.1 in the world to no. 2 in his own country on the rules change alone.

I agree, but we now have a very good tighthead in Samson Lee, who is already more than holding his own, by the time the world cup comes around he will only be 24yrs old and at such a young age will still have about 20 caps to his name.

Yeah he looks decent, holds his own but doesn't give the dominance that Jones used to... give him time, Jones was shocking for the first 5 years of his test career.

He is a lot better than adam Jones was at the same stage, I remember when Adam Jones used to get subbed off after half an hour as he was not fit enough, with a decent second rower behind him, like AWJ, then Samson Lee could be a real threat.

Doesn't say much though.. Jones was for me one of the worst test props in rugby at the beginning of his career. Little force in the scrum, unfit and couldn't get around the park.
I think he had a few heart to hearts mid career with his coaches and his fitness improved no end.

To be honest if you like Lee are holding your own aged 20, you're doing well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

with a decent second rower behind him, like AWJ,

Whats the fascination with AJW?? Ive just never seen what people see in him? Gough etc were heads and shoulders above him....and surely Wales must have better younger lads coming through...

2009-2010 I would agree with you. But for the rest of his career, you must have been in hibernation. He should be our captain IMO. Haven't seen a decent Wales lock at U20s level for 4 years, but we currently have another 4 still playing rugby.

No i havent been in hibernation..i just genuinely dont get the fascination with him.

Wales have had better locks whilst he's been around. Is it a leadership thing like Borthwick or Hooper at Bath, where he may not be the best player but is a very good leader?

The Saint wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

with a decent second rower behind him, like AWJ,

Whats the fascination with AJW?? Ive just never seen what people see in him? Gough etc were heads and shoulders above him....and surely Wales must have better younger lads coming through...

2009-2010 I would agree with you. But for the rest of his career, you must have been in hibernation. He should be our captain IMO. Haven't seen a decent Wales lock at U20s level for 4 years, but we currently have another 4 still playing rugby.

To be honest I have to agree with Geordie on this one.

Jones has always promised much but compared to other 4s you have to say he is pretty average. Etzebeth, Retallick, Bakkies even Launchbury. In the big games he tends to be too absent for me.

GeordieFalcon wrote:No i havent been in hibernation..i just genuinely dont get the fascination with him.

Wales have had better locks whilst he's been around. Is it a leadership thing like Borthwick or Hooper at Bath, where he may not be the best player but is a very good leader?

Geordie this is a serious debate, as titled in the thread, so please try not to talk such bolox.

AWJ has a good all-round game, I don't think any of our other locks do. Charteris and Ball looked like it was a good combo, but can't do much outside of carry and defend well. Evans and Davies is a solid combo, but also a yellow card machine. He hasn't been given the captains armband often, so I doubt people would base it on his leadership, though on the occasion he was captain, he led very well.

AWJ Is a formidable player, and he is a very, very good captain, Geordie, you must not watch much Welsh rugby, this guy is a machine, and he is very good in the line out, I tell you what, why don't you ask some of the Irish or Scottish posters on here what they think of him, they will see him most weeks, and you can get an unbiased view of him then.

fa0019 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

with a decent second rower behind him, like AWJ,

Whats the fascination with AJW?? Ive just never seen what people see in him? Gough etc were heads and shoulders above him....and surely Wales must have better younger lads coming through...

2009-2010 I would agree with you. But for the rest of his career, you must have been in hibernation. He should be our captain IMO. Haven't seen a decent Wales lock at U20s level for 4 years, but we currently have another 4 still playing rugby.

To be honest I have to agree with Geordie on this one.

Jones has always promised much but compared to other 4s you have to say he is pretty average. Etzebeth, Retallick, Bakkies even Launchbury. In the big games he tends to be too absent for me.

Those guys aren't our other 4s.... And wtf is Launchbury doing being mentioned in the same breath as those 3.

LordDowlais wrote:AWJ Is a formidable player, and he is a very, very good captain, Geordie, you must not watch much Welsh rugby, this guy is a machine, and he is very good in the line out, I tell you what, why don't you ask some of the Irish or Scottish posters on here what they think of him, they will see him most weeks, and you can get an unbiased view of him then.

I only get to see him in test rugby myself. Lions against AUS... he did a good job but AUS were one of the weaker packs in world rugby so we would expect the forwards to look good... which they did, hell Tom Youngs even looked good.

Outside of this I have to say IMO he's just a little too timid for me. Goes missing when his opposite numbers is smashing it.

Compare him to Etzebeth, Retallick and Launchbury.... do you still rate him as equal???

Cyril wrote:England beat Aus and Wales at home in the previous games between the sides.

I'd currently back England to beat any side at home except SA and NZ. Hopefully by WC time these two will be properly in reach as England will probably have to beat one of them to win the whole thing.

The AIs will be interesting for lots of reasons.

I think you've got it right there Cyril. Home advantage is not a myth. RWC Hosts tend to perform quite well. I would expect the bookies to have England as favourites in their games unless they come up against SA or NZ.

The Saint wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

with a decent second rower behind him, like AWJ,

Whats the fascination with AJW?? Ive just never seen what people see in him? Gough etc were heads and shoulders above him....and surely Wales must have better younger lads coming through...

2009-2010 I would agree with you. But for the rest of his career, you must have been in hibernation. He should be our captain IMO. Haven't seen a decent Wales lock at U20s level for 4 years, but we currently have another 4 still playing rugby.

To be honest I have to agree with Geordie on this one.

Jones has always promised much but compared to other 4s you have to say he is pretty average. Etzebeth, Retallick, Bakkies even Launchbury. In the big games he tends to be too absent for me.

Those guys aren't our other 4s.... And wtf is Launchbury doing being mentioned in the same breath as those 3.

I really rate Launchbury actually.... he gets around the park, does the hard yards, big tackler too... very much like Retallick.

I don't think AWJ or anyone is close to Etzebeth or Retallick right now, we'll see how he compares in the autumn. He's better than Launchbury though.

Saint why are you getting so aggressive...im only stating my opinion. I rate so many welsh players...just this one i dont...

He's just not a player i rate.

GeordieFalcon wrote:No i havent been in hibernation..i just genuinely dont get the fascination with him.

Wales have had better locks whilst he's been around. Is it a leadership thing like Borthwick or Hooper at Bath, where he may not be the best player but is a very good leader?

Geordiefalcon I am generally a big supporter of your posts but can't agree on this occasion.

Borthwick was far superior to Hooper - the only similarities are they are both locks and they both had stints at Saracens and Bath. Borthwick was an underrated grafter - his workrate and tackle count was significant.

As for AWJ - he's a very good player. I don't think he's overrated at all. Obviously there are Welsh players who are overhyped like Lydiate and Phillips but I wouldn't put AWJ in their category.

Its all down to personal opinon Beshocked...but i genuinely just dont see what AJW brings.

Again its just personal opinion.

I think the reason people get wound up about AW Jones is that on paper and every now and again he shows what he could achieve.

He has it all.... but we rarely see it. In the big games when you need players like him to be at his best, he never stands out.

When you think youngsters like Etzebeth and Retallick are already ahead of him and for me... chaps like Launchbury already cutting strides into his authority you have to wonder whats going on.

You would never have seen Thorn, Bakkies, Weise, Jonno like that. I would even add Grewcock, Hines and Shaw to that list to be honest

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:No i havent been in hibernation..i just genuinely dont get the fascination with him.

Wales have had better locks whilst he's been around. Is it a leadership thing like Borthwick or Hooper at Bath, where he may not be the best player but is a very good leader?

Geordiefalcon I am generally a big supporter of your posts but can't agree on this occasion.

Borthwick was far superior to Hooper - the only similarities are they are both locks and they both had stints at Saracens and Bath. Borthwick was an underrated grafter - his workrate and tackle count was significant.

As for AWJ - he's a very good player. I don't think he's overrated at all. Obviously there are Welsh players who are overhyped like Lydiate and Phillips but I wouldn't put AWJ in their category.

Was Phillips ever overrated? Lets be honest in 2009 he was magnificent. Always good against the boks, always good against big sides. Against more fluid ones not so good but still I think his reputation matched his performances.... come the big games he often stepped up (well against the bigger sides etc).

I'll be honest, I don't overly rate AWJ other than as a captain. Has a huge tendency to carry upright and not make many yards when carrying. Some of you are praising him to the hilt, then listing characteristics like good in the lineout (I'd hope so to). If we are judging it on anthem singing, then he's world class aye.