serious debate how can England be favourites for the group of death?

First topic message reminder :

Over the last decade thats where we will take our facts from no further because players over that time will not be involved.

So the last decade Wales have been better than England not talking about grandslams or who claimed more Southern Hemisphere scalps!
IM TALKING HEAD TO HEAD! WALES HAVE BEEN ON THE WINNING SIDE V ENGLAND THE MOST IN THE LAST DECADE FACT!

Australia have also been on the winning side the most over the last decade v Wales and England FACT!

So why all this hype fro the English players,coaches,fans and media that England will win the group?
Please dont tell me its from good old fashioned "positive thinking will make us win".
We all know that only facts matter and the FACTS are massively against England.

So please i ask you to counter act my FACTS, dont sling mud , give me facts back on why im wrong.

The title of Underdog is a strange one in the context of any side claiming they like the title

You see, Lord is right in offering up the definition of an 'underdog'.  An underdog side is a side that likes to think it can win games much easier as 'underdog' than as favourite.  But if you won every game you were classed as underdog in, then you wouldn't be classed as Underdog at all...ever.

It's strange logic but the only underdog side worth the title (by the definition underdogs use for themselves) is a side that never gets given the title.  Catch 22!

It's hardly supporting Welsh strength in depth when you've got that Welsh side failing to beat Japan.

Put it this way - if England were in a similar position I would expect them to comfortably win.

Even if you threw in Steve Borthwick as head coach of England they would still probably do so.

Remember England threw in Martin Johnson with no prior coaching experience...

Let's put it into perspective - Biggar and Williams had an awful lot more experience than Nowell did when he was thrown in for his first cap away to France.

Biggar is 25 so no he wouldn't have been 21 on tour.

You talk about Liam Williams' inexperience but he has more international experience than numerous English players.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yes lord dowlais I do like to remind you - generally when you talk about how much you rate Biggar. You might say - well it doesn't matter.

Personally I want my higher profile players stepping up - Biggar should have been the Welsh star shining against Japan.

I see enough talent in that team to be able to beat Japan.

Davies on his own has 42 caps. Biggar is meant to be one of the best fly halves on the planet.... Liam Williams is not a new name in Wales.

It's not a bad side.

As for coaches - one of Japan's coaches was Borthwick who had no prior coaching experience who was just basically drafted in.

Are you telling me that the best Welsh coach is Howley and there is no one else?

Firstly Biggar has come on leaps and bounds since that tour, and with the pack he had infront of him he still did ok.

Secondly, Liam Williams was only a international novice at the time, he and Biggar were only about 21yrs old on that tour FFS.

Thirdly, our no.1, no. 2 and no. 3 coaches were not there, niether were half the physios and the other parts of the team you do not get to see anymore.

And lastly, Japan are not the pushovers they once were, they have a fully pro league now with a lot of Polynesians in there international team, if anybody sends a third/fourth choice side out there with a third/fourth choice coaching team they would struggle. Lets not forget, we did not lose the series, we drew it, as we won the first game.

I reckon that Japan side would have lost to the Argentina side which England smashed to pieces mind. Looking at the teamsheet they had Brown, Morgan, Wood, Launchbury who were first team players at the time.

A second choice Wales side should comfortably beat Japan in my view. It was pretty dire.

I am starting to get a little peeved with this now, on what planet do you think that the side sent to Japan was a second choice one ? Half those players at the time were from the U21's team, never mind third or fourth choice.

beshocked wrote:It's hardly supporting Welsh strength in depth when you've got that Welsh side failing to beat Japan.

Put it this way - if England were in a similar position I would expect them to comfortably win.

Even if you threw in Steve Borthwick as head coach of England they would still probably do so.

Remember England threw in Martin Johnson with no prior coaching experience...

Let's put it into perspective - Biggar and Williams had an awful lot more experience than Nowell did when he was thrown in for his first cap away to France.

Biggar is 25 so no he wouldn't have been 21 on tour.

You talk about Liam Williams' inexperience but he has more international experience than numerous English players.

Dan Biggar is twent five TODAY. Two years ago on that tour he would have been 22 and a half, if you need to be pedantic, three quarters of that side who played Japan were just out of the U21's, with the exception of Bradley Davies and three or four others.

It was a full test series no? Which players were out?

So on the lions you had

Jenkins
Hibbard
Jones
Jones
Evans
Lydiate
Warburton. Tipuric
Faletau
Phillips
___________
North
Roberts
Davies
Cuthbert
Halfpenny

so literally a full first team on the lions tour and Tipuric (with no 10).

So if the players who went on tour to Japan weren't 2nd choice? Which fit players were available and didn't travel and test?

I can think of a few. Paul James, Scott Williams and James Hook. Were they fit? I think James and Hook were. Any others?

Lorddowlais I do find it funny you talk about lack of experience then I look at half the England side......

Biggar has more international experience than any current England 10 contender bar Farrell....

If you have more than 5 caps for England these days you are practically a veteran.

It's up to the experienced players to pull the rest through...

I just had a look at the England team which beat Argentina in their final match in BA.

Marler (3rd)
Webber (3rd)
Wilson (2nd)
Launchbury (1st)
Atwood (2nd)
Wood (1st)
Kvesic (1st)
Morgan (1st)
Dickson (3rd)
Burns (2nd)
Yard (2nd)
Eastmond (3rd)
Joseph (2nd)
May (3rd)
Brown (1st)

My opinion on their place at the time. Gives us a rounding of just over 2.00

Was the Welsh team any worse? It does look a little weaker but I don't think that much weaker to be honest

FB 15 Liam Williams  
RW 14 Harry Robinson
OC 13 Owen Williams  
IC 12 Jonathan Spratt
LW 11 Tom Prydie
FH 10 Dan Biggar
SH 9 Lloyd Williams  
N8 8 Andries Pretorius
OF 7 Josh Navidi  
BF 6 James King
RL 5 Lou Reed  
LL 4 Bradley Davies (c)
TP 3 Scott Andrews  
HK 2 Emyr Phillips  
LP 1 Rhys Gill

all I'm saying is that I think that team did not do themselves justice. No excuses for me.

fa0019 wrote:It was a full test series no? Which players were out?

So on the lions you had

Jenkins
Hibbard
Jones
Jones
Evans
Lydiate
Warburton. Tipuric
Faletau
Phillips
___________
North
Roberts
Davies
Cuthbert
Halfpenny

so literally a full first team on the lions tour and Tipuric (with no 10).

So if the players who went on tour to Japan weren't 2nd choice? Which fit players were available and didn't travel and test?

I can think of a few. Paul James, Scott Williams and James Hook. Were they fit? I think James and Hook were. Any others?

This is the team that lost to Japan:-

Wales: Liam Williams (Scarlets); Harry Robinson (Blues), Owen Williams (Blues), Jonathan Spratt (Ospreys), Tom Prydie (Dragons); [/b[b]]Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Blues); Rhys Gill (Saracens), Emyr Phillips (Scarlets), Scott Andrews (Blues), Bradley Davies (Blues, capt), Lou Reed (Blues), James King (Ospreys), Andries Pretorius (Blues), Josh Navidi (Blues).

Of that team, the one's in bold were fresh out of the U21's then there were others who were getting their first caps like Emyr Phillips and Andries Pretorius.

There were a lot of absentees due to injuries, like Ken Owens, Ian Evans, Luke Charteris, Ryan Jones, Scott Williams, James Hook, Paul James, and more I cannot think of, add to that, all three senior coaches did not go, so Japan got a well deserved win.

fa0019 wrote:all I'm saying is that I think that team did not do themselves justice. No excuses for me.

Most of those players, might be worthy now, but at the time they were still just young kids, with the odd older one thrown in, who did not have as much experience either.

I counted 23 players missing from the Japan tour though it could have been more as I may have missed more injuries, it was probably more like 30. With 4 pro teams and no A team, we can't really take a hit like that. Add in the fact that Howells, Spratt, L.Williams, Andrews, Pretorious and to an extent King should never be anywhere near our international team plus a moron coaching the guys.... Well it's just a recipe for disaster. I thought Japan played well throughout the series, our 'team' were pathetic. How some idiots on here still bring this up and base our current form on this game though, I do not know.

Lorddowlais should still be strong enough.

If you took out 30 England players....

Goode (no Brown or Foden)
Roko (no Ashton or Wade)
Devoto (no Joseph or Tuilagi
Barritt (no Twelvetrees or Burrell)
Nowell (no May or Watson)
Cipriani (no Ford or Farrell)
Dickson (no Care or Youngs)

Mako (no Marler or Corbisiero)
T.Youngs (no hartley or Webber)
Sinckler (no Cole or Wilson)
Kruis (no Attwood or Lawes)
Slater (no Launchbury or Parling
Haskell (no Wood or Fearns)
Ksevic (no Robshaw or Fraser)
Ewers (no Billy or Morgan)

I would expect that England side to beat Japan comfortably.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais should still be strong enough.

If you took out 30 England players....

Goode (no Brown or Foden)
Roko (no Ashton or Wade)
Devoto (no Joseph or Tuilagi
Barritt (no Twelvetrees or Burrell)
Nowell (no May or Watson)
Cipriani (no Ford or Farrell)
Dickson (no Care or Youngs)

Mako (no Marler or Corbisiero)
T.Youngs (no hartley or Webber)
Sinckler (no Cole or Wilson)
Kruis (no Attwood or Lawes)
Slater (no Launchbury or Parling
Haskell (no Wood or Fearns)
Ksevic (no Robshaw or Fraser)
Ewers (no Billy or Morgan)

I would expect that England side to beat Japan comfortably.

To be fair though, England have a lot more players at their disposal due to a) larger playing pool and b) 12 pro clubs rather than 4).

In that case you would expect to say that Wales strength in depth in 3 times less (without considering the no. of foreign nationals playing in each respected club teams).

fa0019 yes but this is what I have been saying about strength in depth.

We have lord dowlais not acknowledging that Wales' strength in depth is not as good.

I mention the strength in depth comparison because of king carlos talking about the attrition rate. My point is that England will hold this advantage in this pool of death.

The advantage Wales do have with a smaller pool is that means there should be more experience shared around less players.

E.g. George North is 22 with 42 caps.

I am sure if you looked at the 1st 23 of Wales they dwarf England in terms of caps.

beshocked wrote:fa0019 yes but this is what I have been saying about strength in depth.

We have lord dowlais not acknowledging that Wales' strength in depth is not as good.
I mention the strength in depth comparison because of king carlos talking about the attrition rate. My point is that England will hold this advantage in this pool of death.

The advantage Wales do have with a smaller pool is that means there should be more experience shared around less players.

E.g. George North is 22 with 42 caps.

I am sure if you looked at the 1st 23 of Wales they dwarf England in terms of caps.

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrghhhhhhhh

I am not saying our stregnth in depth is just as good as anyone else's though am I ? What I am saying is that our first fifteen could win at Twickenham, and we could cope with a few injuries, as well, then you keep bringing up the Japan tour as a stick to beat the Welsh with. The side that went out to Japan, and the coaches, will not be anything like the side we will have for the world cup, half of those players who lost in Japan were just kids at the time, but look at them now, Biggar, Baker, Liam Williams, Scott Andrews, they are all making claims for the national side now and not just as back ups, for starting places, what went on in Japan was a farce, I am pretty sure it will not happen again, unless another nation takes them lightly like we did.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais should still be strong enough.

If you took out 30 England players....

Goode (no Brown or Foden)
Roko (no Ashton or Wade)
Devoto (no Joseph or Tuilagi
Barritt (no Twelvetrees or Burrell)
Nowell (no May or Watson)
Cipriani (no Ford or Farrell)
Dickson (no Care or Youngs)

Mako (no Marler or Corbisiero)
T.Youngs (no hartley or Webber)
Sinckler (no Cole or Wilson)
Kruis (no Attwood or Lawes)
Slater (no Launchbury or Parling
Haskell (no Wood or Fearns)
Ksevic (no Robshaw or Fraser)
Ewers (no Billy or Morgan)

I would expect that England side to beat Japan comfortably.

How many of them are residency players or have parants/grandparents of English nationality ? Not asking for a wind up, I am genuinly interested.

To be honest in living memory English sides have gone on tours with kids and got hammered*, and some of the 'survivors' turned into very decent players.

* Not by Japan, obviously

LD old chum, for someone who reckons the English on here have been a little precious lately, sure seems like you're being a bit precious today!

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais should still be strong enough.

If you took out 30 England players....

Goode (no Brown or Foden)
Roko (no Ashton or Wade)
Devoto (no Joseph or Tuilagi
Barritt (no Twelvetrees or Burrell)
Nowell (no May or Watson)
Cipriani (no Ford or Farrell)
Dickson (no Care or Youngs)

Mako (no Marler or Corbisiero)
T.Youngs (no hartley or Webber)
Sinckler (no Cole or Wilson)
Kruis (no Attwood or Lawes)
Slater (no Launchbury or Parling
Haskell (no Wood or Fearns)
Ksevic (no Robshaw or Fraser)
Ewers (no Billy or Morgan)

I would expect that England side to beat Japan comfortably.

How many of them are residency players ? Not asking for a wind up, I am genuinly interested.

Roko.

Arguably Ewers and Mako too - but they were here as kids. Barritt english parent

Of the extended list Billy V and Manu - as kids also, and maybe Corbs and Hartley who have English mums and were at least partially brought up here

When I look at what I think Lancaster's full strength 30 man squad would likely look like, I can't help but feel that whilst there's cover across the park in most positions it still just doesn't fill me with confidence some how.

1.Corbs, Marler, Mako
2.Hartley, T Youngs, Webber
3.Wilson, Cole
4.Launchbury, Attwood
5.Lawes, Parling
6.Wood + one of Croft or Haskell
7.Robshaw
8.Billy V, Morgan

9.Care, B Youngs, Dickson
10.Farrell, Ford

11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi, Burrell
14.Wade + one of Nowell, May or Ashton
15.Brown + one of Foden or Goode

I'm also not sure what it is that's missing given I wouldn't make many changes at all to the players listed. Hopefully something can click with some partnerships forming (and staying fit) especially in the backs this season.

Could Wales suffer from having 3/4 of their star players plying their trade in France in the lead up to RWC?

Well known that the French clubs take their pound of flesh, so are guys like Halfpenny, Davies, Roberts and Lydiate going to be totally fresh come RWC?  

Both the English and Australians will be able to ensure their star players get plenty of rest during the season.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais should still be strong enough.

If you took out 30 England players....

Goode (no Brown or Foden)
Roko (no Ashton or Wade)
Devoto (no Joseph or Tuilagi
Barritt (no Twelvetrees or Burrell)
Nowell (no May or Watson)
Cipriani (no Ford or Farrell)
Dickson (no Care or Youngs)

Mako (no Marler or Corbisiero)
T.Youngs (no hartley or Webber)
Sinckler (no Cole or Wilson)
Kruis (no Attwood or Lawes)
Slater (no Launchbury or Parling
Haskell (no Wood or Fearns)
Ksevic (no Robshaw or Fraser)
Ewers (no Billy or Morgan)

I would expect that England side to beat Japan comfortably.

How many of them are residency players or have parants/grandparents of English nationality ? Not asking for a wind up, I am genuinly interested.

Nowell is Cornish through and through - no idea how he qualifies for England.

A pressure of playing Japan away is not the same as having your first cap vs France away or your first proper start against the ABs.

I feel that you enjoy making excuses for Wales - that Welsh side should have beaten Japan. They had enough talent and experience to do so.

Biggar just a kid? I thought you were saying he should have gone on the Lions tour. I thought that you had been singing his praises for a long time.

The Japan tour also continues to highlight the weakness Wales have vs SH sides.


Wales are a good side but they are beatable - particularly when they don't have a full strength team.

Even though that's the case you would expect an understrength Welsh side to be able to beat Japan.

beshocked wrote:A pressure of playing Japan away is not the same as having your first cap vs France away or your first proper start against the ABs.

I feel that you enjoy making excuses for Wales - that Welsh side should have beaten Japan. They had enough talent and experience to do so.

Biggar just a kid? I thought you were saying he should have gone on the Lions tour. I thought that you had been singing his praises for a long time.

The Japan tour also continues to highlight the weakness Wales have vs SH sides.


Wales are a good side but they are beatable - particularly when they don't have a full strength team.

Even though that's the case you would expect an understrength Welsh side to be able to beat Japan.

Not sure that's right in terms of geography!

beshocked wrote:A pressure of playing Japan away is not the same as having your first cap vs France away or your first proper start against the ABs.

I feel that you enjoy making excuses for Wales - that Welsh side should have beaten Japan. They had enough talent and experience to do so.

Biggar just a kid? I thought you were saying he should have gone on the Lions tour. I thought that you had been singing his praises for a long time.

The Japan tour also continues to highlight the weakness Wales have vs SH sides.


Wales are a good side but they are beatable - particularly when they don't have a full strength team.

Even though that's the case you would expect an understrength Welsh side to be able to beat Japan.

Beshocked, wise up, I did not say Biggar should have GONE on the Lions tour, I said he should GO on the Lions tour, the next one, but you just keep twisting things to suit your own arguments.

It's ok I have done my own research Roko, Barritt, Mako, Ksevic, Ewers, were all born outside of England, I was going to give you Mako, but thought, hang on he grew up in Wales, so you cannot get away with him, so all this great strength in depth you have in England is padded out with foreigners.

Kvesic has English parents, for all we know they could have gone on holiday and he popped out

Did you actually just highlight in bold all the foreign sounding names and ask whether they are English?

I mean seriously, asking about Kruis, Devoto and Sinckler?

Kvesic was born on an army base in Germany - weren't some or all of those bases designated as UK sovereign territory? If that is the case (and I don't know, just curious) would that have made him eligible for any of the UK nations (and Ireland)?

People are straying from the point here ,injuries to squads will occur in RWC and before.
Refs do favour homesides,England are only rated 3Rd courtesy of Argentina next year
could be different.

Australia since 2011,solid 2012 drew and should have beaten ABs,poor beginning 2013.
Then a 10 match winning run,had a lot of front row injuries,despite that only really
blown away second bledisloe.
Draw v ABs ,win and loss v Boks where both sides blew up in last 10 minutes in both
match`s won respectively.

Wales ARE looked down on by SOME arrogant English because they haven't won a
RWC.Head to head it`s one game and unlike 6Ns bonus points count so it could
come down to that.

BamBam wrote:
Did you actually just highlight in bold all the foreign sounding names and ask whether they are English?

Yes, that is exactly what I did, I know nothing about them, that is why I asked, I got no answers, so I checked myself.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:
Did you actually just highlight in bold all the foreign sounding names and ask whether they are English?

Yes, that is exactly what I did, I know nothing about them, that is why I asked, I got no answers, so I checked myself.

You missed out Cipriani.

Facts people facts,
im not sure if our English friends understand the meaning of the word but a fact can't be backed up by "probably" "if" "building nicely" "bar that one drubbing in Newzealand"
Facts i want some!!!!! please FFS.

Here are some facts for you under Gatlands tenure Wales have won twice and lost three in Twickenham, so as stated before Twickers aint no fortress,FACT.
Under Stuart Lancasters tenure Wales handed England the biggest hammering in the pro era,FACT.
With current squad members Wales have progressed further in a world cup already topping Englands quarter final embarrassment,FACT.

Also may i add all those saying but Aus are in mess clearly don't understand Australia's psyche!
underestimate them at your peril.

Wales will more than likely lose to Australia in the group as will England, but WALES WILL BEAT ENGLAND, because the facts show that head to head we are better,FACT.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:
Did you actually just highlight in bold all the foreign sounding names and ask whether they are English?

Yes, that is exactly what I did, I know nothing about them, that is why I asked, I got no answers, so I checked myself.

You missed out Cipriani.

He's like a part of the furniture, he's always been here, you can have him, I was going to give you Mako, but he is more Welsh than English.

Firstly lets get the japan thing straight first, This was the squad with at the time their ranking in terms of position at the time (and in brackets for now)
15) Liam Williams 2 (1/2)
14) Harry Robinson 3 (4)
13) Owen Williams 3
12) Jonathan Spratt 4 (5)
11) Tom Prydie 3 (5)
10) Dan Biggar 2 (1)
9) Lloyd Williams 3 (4)
1) Rhys Gill 3 (3/4)
2) Emyr Phillips 3 (3/4)
3) Scott Andrews 3 (5)
4) Bradley Davies 2 (3)
5) Lou Reed 3 (5)
6) James King 5 (5)
7) Josh Navidi 4 (4)
8) Andries Pretorius 3 (4)

very few of those players would be near the matchday 23 never mind starting. But at the end of the day Wales were naïve to pick such a young squad with such a lack of experience. However bygones be bygones and back on subject.

England are favourites yes, playing at home, so most support, have beaten both of the rival teams in their group, also their fans are confident with their strength in depth (I cant comment due to my lack of knowledge on a large number of the players).
Their problems however is that their is a lot of debate about their actual best side, who should the midfield combination should be, best wingers, best lock partnership, whether their captain (who I have seen people on here claim is off form, although I rate hugely) deserves his place due to the competition in the backrow.

in comparison
Australia seem in an absolute state, players injured or have left (well the honeybadger), but frankly they have some great players in folau, cooper, hooper, pocock (if he ever gets fit) AAC and if they click they will be an absolute danger side, as frankly any of us Welsh supporters sadly know.

Wales, seem to have a fairly settled squad but could that mean being stale, some players are getting over the hill and gatland does need to give some youngsters a chance to claim their place and freshen up the squad. Also we have a bit of a problem with aus, hopefully we can get over that this AI's. Overall don't think Wales are in a bad place and remember how Gatland changed things around prior to the WC last time, with Faletau only gaining his first cap against the BaaBaas and the centre partnership not being particularly familiar, also priestland only just breaking through. So not too worried with wales as we know gatland does take risks and despite people not being a fan of his, he is a smooth operator and knows what he is doing.

anyway that is my summary of the 3 squads. but the world cup is still 11 months away and plenty of rugby still to be played and some new players may burst onto the scene, injuries and form may completely change the teams, and also as people have pointed out there is a physical Fiji side and 2 tough games against the other 2 main rivals so there will be some battered bodies out there!

Also i love the depth argument going on at the moment it is rendered useless by the FACT that England are the largest Union in World Rugby,
Yes England have ten times the depth of Wales undisputed FACT,
The Welsh depth is quite crap, FACT.

But as shown by six nation titles , a world cup semi final and a ridiculous amount of test Lions it doesn't matter how big it is it is what you do with it that counts

Quite frankly if i was English "god forbid" i would whole heartedly avoid how much depth England have because it shows a that HUGE Elephant in the room, which is if we have not won a major tournament in over a decade ,we must be CRAP!

LordDowlais wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:
Did you actually just highlight in bold all the foreign sounding names and ask whether they are English?

Yes, that is exactly what I did, I know nothing about them, that is why I asked, I got no answers, so I checked myself.

You missed out Cipriani.

He's like a part of the furniture, he's always been here, you can have him, I was going to give you Mako, but he is more Welsh than English.

Haskell's part of the furniture too, unfortunately, but you still managed to query him. It could be something to do with the rumour that he was born on the planet Krypton, but intensive studies by a highly qualified team of psychologists, neuro-surgeons and his Mum concluded that he wasn't. It's just that a Superman comic is the only book he's ever read, and he thought it was about him.

Mako certainly sounds more Welsh than English, but then that's what living in Bristol does for you.

What would a welsh-born team look like - confirmation of Wales' weakness in depth?

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Also i love the depth argument going on at the moment  it is rendered useless by the FACT that England are the largest Union in World Rugby,
Yes England have ten times the depth of Wales undisputed FACT,
The Welsh depth is quite crap, FACT.

But as shown by six nation titles , a world cup semi final and a ridiculous amount of test Lions it doesn't matter how big it is it is what you do with it that counts

Quite frankly if i was English "god forbid" i would whole heartedly avoid how much depth England have because it shows a that HUGE Elephant in the room, which is if we have not won a major tournament in over a decade ,we must be CRAP!

Blimey, has it been over a decade since 2011? How time flies

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:
Did you actually just highlight in bold all the foreign sounding names and ask whether they are English?

Yes, that is exactly what I did, I know nothing about them, that is why I asked, I got no answers, so I checked myself.

You missed out Cipriani.

He's like a part of the furniture, he's always been here, you can have him, I was going to give you Mako, but he is more Welsh than English.

Haskell's part of the furniture too, unfortunately, but you still managed to query him. It could be something to do with the rumour that he was born on the planet Krypton, but intensive studies by a highly qualified team of psychologists, neuro-surgeons and his Mum concluded that he wasn't. It's just that a Superman comic is the only book he's ever read, and he thought it was about him.

Mako certainly sounds more Welsh than English, but then that's what living in Bristol does for you.

What would a welsh-born team look like - confirmation of Wales' weakness in depth?

Ya reckon?

Jenkins, Hibbard, Lee, AWJ, Evans, Warburton, Tipuric, Baker - Webb, Biggar, Roberts, S.Williams, Allen, Halfpenny, L.Williams - looks pretty good. And most think a few of those should be starters this autumn. BTW, I think this birth place arguing is silly.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:A pressure of playing Japan away is not the same as having your first cap vs France away or your first proper start against the ABs.

I feel that you enjoy making excuses for Wales - that Welsh side should have beaten Japan. They had enough talent and experience to do so.

Biggar just a kid? I thought you were saying he should have gone on the Lions tour. I thought that you had been singing his praises for a long time.

The Japan tour also continues to highlight the weakness Wales have vs SH sides.


Wales are a good side but they are beatable - particularly when they don't have a full strength team.

Even though that's the case you would expect an understrength Welsh side to be able to beat Japan.

Beshocked, wise up, I did not say Biggar should have GONE on the Lions tour, I said he should GO on the Lions tour, the next one, but you just keep twisting things to suit your own arguments.

Good old beshocked clearly needs to a lot more to wise up. I can't see us going into the RWC with 30 players unavailable....

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:
Did you actually just highlight in bold all the foreign sounding names and ask whether they are English?

Yes, that is exactly what I did, I know nothing about them, that is why I asked, I got no answers, so I checked myself.

blind in both eyes then - there are 2 answers at least.

Overall probably less than the number of Welsh players born in England. Happy?

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Also i love the depth argument going on at the moment  it is rendered useless by the FACT that England are the largest Union in World Rugby,
Yes England have ten times the depth of Wales undisputed FACT,
The Welsh depth is quite crap, FACT.

But as shown by six nation titles , a world cup semi final and a ridiculous amount of test Lions it doesn't matter how big it is it is what you do with it that counts

Quite frankly if i was English "god forbid" i would whole heartedly avoid how much depth England have because it shows a that HUGE Elephant in the room, which is if we have not won a major tournament in over a decade ,we must be CRAP!

Is the six nations a major tournament when the top 3 sides in the world are not invited... Ever?

It's a bit like boasting your team won the Amlin cup.

The Saint wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:
Did you actually just highlight in bold all the foreign sounding names and ask whether they are English?

Yes, that is exactly what I did, I know nothing about them, that is why I asked, I got no answers, so I checked myself.

You missed out Cipriani.

He's like a part of the furniture, he's always been here, you can have him, I was going to give you Mako, but he is more Welsh than English.

Haskell's part of the furniture too, unfortunately, but you still managed to query him. It could be something to do with the rumour that he was born on the planet Krypton, but intensive studies by a highly qualified team of psychologists, neuro-surgeons and his Mum concluded that he wasn't. It's just that a Superman comic is the only book he's ever read, and he thought it was about him.

Mako certainly sounds more Welsh than English, but then that's what living in Bristol does for you.

What would a welsh-born team look like - confirmation of Wales' weakness in depth?

Ya reckon?

Jenkins, Hibbard, Lee, AWJ, Evans, Warburton, Tipuric, Baker - Webb, Biggar, Roberts, S.Williams, Allen, Halfpenny, L.Williams - looks pretty good. And most think a few of those should be starters this autumn. BTW, I think this birth place arguing is silly.

Looks weak

Yeah, birthplace is silly, but it passed the time till Glaws v Brive. Now, if you go welsh-born, welsh parentage, welsh grandparentage.....?

fa0019 wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Also i love the depth argument going on at the moment  it is rendered useless by the FACT that England are the largest Union in World Rugby,
Yes England have ten times the depth of Wales undisputed FACT,
The Welsh depth is quite crap, FACT.

But as shown by six nation titles , a world cup semi final and a ridiculous amount of test Lions it doesn't matter how big it is it is what you do with it that counts

Quite frankly if i was English "god forbid" i would whole heartedly avoid how much depth England have because it shows a that HUGE Elephant in the room, which is if we have not won a major tournament in over a decade ,we must be CRAP!

Is the six nations a major tournament when the top 3 sides in the world are not invited... Ever?

It's a bit like boasting your team won the Amlin cup.

Yep so easy to win England win it all the time

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Also i love the depth argument going on at the moment  it is rendered useless by the FACT that England are the largest Union in World Rugby,
Yes England have ten times the depth of Wales undisputed FACT,
The Welsh depth is quite crap, FACT.

But as shown by six nation titles , a world cup semi final and a ridiculous amount of test Lions it doesn't matter how big it is it is what you do with it that counts

Quite frankly if i was English "god forbid" i would whole heartedly avoid how much depth England have because it shows a that HUGE Elephant in the room, which is if we have not won a major tournament in over a decade ,we must be CRAP!

Is the six nations a major tournament when the top 3 sides in the world are not invited... Ever?

It's a bit like boasting your team won the Amlin cup.

Yep so easy to win England win it all the time

Winning it isn't a major achievement or something to shout about.... Like winning the vodacom cup in SA.

But even though they English teams have won it regularly.... It's better than not winning it right? How many times have welsh teams won it? You still compete in the competition right? so you're slagging off a competition that you say is easy yet your own clubs have barely ever achieved success in it. You must think your own clubs are dire. Not exactly a vote of confidence is it.

fa0019 wrote:
But even though they English teams have won it regularly.... It's better than not winning it right? How many times have welsh teams won it? You still compete in the competition right? so you're slagging off a competition that you say is easy yet your own clubs have barely ever achieved success in it. You must think your own clubs are dire. Not exactly a vote of confidence is it.

I think he was refering to the 6N rather than the Amlin..

Lord Dowlais admittedly I haven't trawled through all your postings but I am sure you are one of the posters who wanted Biggar on the Lions tour instead of Farrell Jr.

The Saint I never said you would go to the world cup with 30 players missing. I was talking about the lack of strength of depth in Wales as you felt that the group of players that went to Japan were incredibly weak.

Your Welsh born XV would have two players from the Japan tour? I thought the concensus in Wales that all the players on the Japan tour were $%^&.

It's funny isn't it? You use the lack of experience excuse for the Japan tour yet hail Samson Lee as a world class player in the making despite him having only had a few games for Wales? (Okay I admit I exaggerate a bit but Lee has already been hyped up).

Never even heard of Baker and Allen yet they would make a Welsh born XV?

You use the lack of experience excuse when it suits you.

In comparison I am far less kind to less experienced England players, perhaps unfairly - I have targetted Nowell's lack of inexperience (particularly in the 1st half) as one reason for England failing to beat France this year and losing the chance of the GS.

Lancaster threw Nowell into the deep end against France, his gamble failed in my opinion. I will continue to hold it as a black mark against Lancaster. ( I don't think you Welsh should let go of that loss to Japan as it's inexcusable).

You could argue Lancaster picked Nowell because of injuries to some wing options - I would point out he didn't pick the most experienced England winger option and has mismanaged the wing options for some time by putting FBs there on too many occasions.

Oh and whose fault is it that England winger's don't perform to their best ability? Lancaster of course.

I have criticised Nowell a lot as a frustation for the loss of a GS opportunity but ultimately it was Lancaster's fault, not Nowell's.

I know it seems like I continually criticise Wales - I suppose I do - it's because I think you can do better. Wales are a good side but you do have your weaknesses just as England do.

I certainly don't hold back my criticism of certain England players . Also I acknowledge the faults of players I like too (hard to believe I guess). I criticise Lancaster and the coaches too.

What started as a sensible debate has become a Wales v England slanging match.
To date ignoring draws head to head England 57,Wales56 wins FACT so there is nothing
in it.

In practical terms England were Joint Winners last two 6Ns points difference is no way to
win a tournament.

IF a international side wins or loses to another it says so in the Record books,many,many
sides have fielded weaker sides for various reasons BUT the Record book doesn' t state it FACT.

Australia fully fit and sorted would be MY favourites to win the Group FACT
Wales could beat England.or vice versa and still not progress from the Group FACT
IT could be a 3 way tie where bonus points,points difference,number of losses
or even a penalty shoot out decides FACT

Whatever happens before or now DOES`NT MATTER what happens in 11 months
does FACT.

There is no facts in this case. Its just speculation in the end as the events have yet to occur.

All we can do is assess the probabilities.

It very well could be

Eng beat Wales
Wales beat Aus
Aus beat Eng.

so performance elsewhere and points diff comes into it.

Say Wales were able to play their full first XV... that would be a challenge for anyone. Injuries are probably the biggest determinant for me as all teams have them and the very best players can have a huge swing in fortunes.

beshocked wrote:Lord Dowlais admittedly I haven't trawled through all your postings but I am sure you are one of the posters who wanted Biggar on the Lions tour instead of Farrell Jr.

The Saint I never said you would go to the world cup with 30 players missing. I was talking about the lack of strength of depth in Wales as you felt that the group of players that went to Japan were incredibly weak.

Your Welsh born XV would have two players from the Japan tour? I thought the concensus in Wales that all the players on the Japan tour were $%^&.

It's funny isn't it? You use the lack of experience excuse for the Japan tour yet hail Samson Lee as a world class player in the making despite him having only had a few games for Wales? (Okay I admit I exaggerate a bit but Lee has already been hyped up).

Never even heard of Baker and Allen yet they would make a Welsh born XV?

You use the lack of experience excuse when it suits you.

In comparison I am far less kind to less experienced England players, perhaps unfairly - I have targetted Nowell's lack of inexperience (particularly in the 1st half) as one reason for England failing to beat France this year and losing the chance of the GS.

Lancaster threw Nowell into the deep end against France, his gamble failed in my opinion. I will continue to hold it as a black mark against Lancaster. ( I don't think you Welsh should let go of that loss to Japan as it's inexcusable).

You could argue Lancaster picked Nowell because of injuries to some wing options - I would point out he didn't pick the most experienced England winger option and has mismanaged the wing options for some time by putting FBs there on too many occasions.

Oh and whose fault is it that England winger's don't perform to their best ability? Lancaster of course.

I have criticised Nowell a lot as a frustation for the loss of a GS opportunity  but ultimately it was Lancaster's fault, not Nowell's.

I know it seems like I continually criticise Wales - I suppose I do - it's because I think you can do better. Wales are a good side but you do have your weaknesses just as England do.

I certainly don't hold back my criticism of certain England players . Also I acknowledge the faults of players I like too (hard to believe I guess). I criticise Lancaster and the coaches too.

Beshocked, I know you cannot be bothered but perhaps thats because you know you are wrong, here it took me all of 30 seconds to find it, read and enjoy:-

https://www.606v2.com/t55805-possible-lions-2017

And just incase you cannot be bothered to click on the link, this was my reply to ironbru:-

No mention of Dan Biggar and Rhys Webb in that list, for me Dan Biggar will be the next Lion no. 10.

See how I said NEXT. I will accept your apology in advance.

LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!