serious debate how can England be favourites for the group of death?

First topic message reminder :

Over the last decade thats where we will take our facts from no further because players over that time will not be involved.

So the last decade Wales have been better than England not talking about grandslams or who claimed more Southern Hemisphere scalps!
IM TALKING HEAD TO HEAD! WALES HAVE BEEN ON THE WINNING SIDE V ENGLAND THE MOST IN THE LAST DECADE FACT!

Australia have also been on the winning side the most over the last decade v Wales and England FACT!

So why all this hype fro the English players,coaches,fans and media that England will win the group?
Please dont tell me its from good old fashioned "positive thinking will make us win".
We all know that only facts matter and the FACTS are massively against England.

So please i ask you to counter act my FACTS, dont sling mud , give me facts back on why im wrong.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Saint why are you getting so aggressive...im only stating my opinion. I rate so many welsh players...just this one i dont...

He's just not a player i rate.

I'm not being aggressive, thought I'd made a funny when referring to how much of a serious debate this thread is .

fa0019 I guess it depends what you want from a 9 - do you want an extra flanker there?


I want to see a 9 generate quick ball - take pressure off the 10 etc. Keep the opposition guessing.

Care did that brilliantly in the 6 nations for example.

I don't like Phillip's flanker esque style - perhaps it's because I prefer a controlling player at 10.

For Wales I feel that Phillips slows down their attack. I worry what Wales could do with a proper 9 generating quick ball.

I don't want my 9 at the bottom of a ruck.

The Saint wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Saint why are you getting so aggressive...im only stating my opinion. I rate so many welsh players...just this one i dont...

He's just not a player i rate.

I'm not being aggressive, thought I'd made a funny when referring to how much of a serious debate this thread is .

Fair do's mate

beshocked wrote:fa0019 I guess it depends what you want from a 9 - do you want an extra flanker there?


I want to see a 9 generate quick ball - take pressure off the 10 etc. Keep the opposition guessing.

Care did that brilliantly in the 6 nations for example.

I don't like Phillip's flanker esque style - perhaps it's because I prefer a controlling player at 10.

For Wales I feel that Phillips slows down their attack. I worry what Wales could do with a proper 9 generating quick ball.

I don't want my 9 at the bottom of a ruck.

I think different players suit different teams.

Look how SCW often switched between Bracken and Dawson. Bracken had the killer pass and was quite possibly the best reflexes I've ever seen in a 9. Dawson had the better running game. They suited different types of teams.

Phillips was born to play the French, the boks, the English. Yet elsewhere he was surplus to requirements.

Serious debate - NOW that would be a novelty on here sometimes

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Over the last decade thats where we will take our facts from no further because players over that time will not be involved.

So the last decade Wales have been better than England not talking about grandslams or who claimed more Southern Hemisphere scalps!
IM TALKING HEAD TO HEAD! WALES HAVE BEEN ON THE WINNING SIDE V ENGLAND THE MOST IN THE LAST DECADE FACT!

Australia have also been on the winning side the most over the last decade v Wales and England FACT!

So why all this hype fro the English players,coaches,fans and media that England will win the group?
Please dont tell me its from good old fashioned "positive thinking will make us win".
We all know that only facts matter and the FACTS are massively against England.

So please i ask you to counter act my FACTS, dont sling mud , give me facts back on why im wrong.

Since the tournament became the Six Nations in 2000 England have played Wales 10 times at Twickenham (including WC warm up matches us). England has won 8 times.

In the last decade Australia has beaten England 8 times and England have beaten Australia five times. They have faced Australia in Europe 7 times in that period (6 at Twickenham and one in France) and won 4 times. In the last four meetings between the two nations it currently stands at 3-1 to England and I would back them to make it 4-1 in November.

England have never lost to Uruguay or Fiji.

In that time Wales have been beaten by Australia 15 times and come away with two wins and a draw, neither of which were on neutral territory.

Wales have also managed to both lose and draw with Fiji.

All of this may mean diddly squat when it is 15 vs. 15 slugging it out, but I don’t feel abashed that I am quietly confident.

I actually think this will run one of two ways. Australia will find their form and finish top after close games against both England and Wales, and England will beat Wales to finish 2nd.

The other option for me is that Australia will implode and will lose to both England and Wales, and will go home. If I were Wales, I would be worrying more about Australia and focussing on beating them. They do that, they progress in my eyes.

The Welsh team will not be afraid of going to Twickenham to play England, on the contrary, they will be looking forward to it, Wales fear nobody in the Six Nations, no matter where the venue is, the same can be said for England, Australia on the other hand might get the doubters going as we have seen before with Wales, I am more confident of Wales beating England than I am of Wales beating Australia at the moment, but things could change in the next 12 months.

Who do we think the Twickenham crowd will be behind during the World Cup pool match between Australia and Wales?

From a standing start, I'd say they'd be behind the Welsh. However, the way the schedule is set up, we'll already know the results of England's matches against these two. The crowd could well be influenced by how we've done against them.

I remember how important the crowd support was for France during their 1999 comeback win over the All Blacks, and it could be a factor in this match too.

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think the Twickenham crowd will be behind during their World Cup pool match?

From a standing start, I'd say they'd be behind the Welsh. However, the way the schedule is set up, we'll already know the results of England's matches against these two. The crowd could well be influenced by how we've done against them.

I remember how important the crowd support was for France during their 1999 comeback win over the All Blacks, and it could be a factor in this match too.

I don't doubt for a second that the Welsh will get its supporters at Twickenham but make no mistake... they won't be dominant numbers and therefore why would the English support the welsh?

The Crowd support in 1999 you talk off... it was a neutral venue and Paris is a lot closer to London than Auckland is. The French travel very well and in large numbers as well as having 500,000 in London alone.

fa0019 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think the Twickenham crowd will be behind during their World Cup pool match?

From a standing start, I'd say they'd be behind the Welsh. However, the way the schedule is set up, we'll already know the results of England's matches against these two. The crowd could well be influenced by how we've done against them.

I remember how important the crowd support was for France during their 1999 comeback win over the All Blacks, and it could be a factor in this match too.

I don't doubt for a second that the Welsh will get its supporters at Twickenham but make no mistake... they won't be dominant numbers and therefore why would the English support the welsh?

The Crowd support in 1999 you talk off... it was a neutral venue and Paris is a lot closer to London than Auckland is. The French travel very well and in large numbers as well as having 500,000 in London alone.

Sorry, I meant during the match between Australia and Wales (edited my post too late for you to see).

fa0019 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think the Twickenham crowd will be behind during their World Cup pool match?

From a standing start, I'd say they'd be behind the Welsh. However, the way the schedule is set up, we'll already know the results of England's matches against these two. The crowd could well be influenced by how we've done against them.

I remember how important the crowd support was for France during their 1999 comeback win over the All Blacks, and it could be a factor in this match too.

I don't doubt for a second that the Welsh will get its supporters at Twickenham but make no mistake... they won't be dominant numbers and therefore why would the English support the welsh?

The Crowd support in 1999 you talk off... it was a neutral venue and Paris is a lot closer to London than Auckland is. The French travel very well and in large numbers as well as having 500,000 in London alone.

We only have to travel an hour or two down the M4 mun, we will be there in our droves, trust me, you could put the MS in the middle of Timbuktu and we would find our way there to fill it.

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh team will not be afraid of going to Twickenham to play England, on the contrary, they will be looking forward to it, Wales fear nobody in the Six Nations, no matter where the venue is, the same can be said for England, Australia on the other hand might get the doubters going as we have seen before with Wales, I am more confident of Wales beating England than I am of Wales beating Australia at the moment, but things could change in the next 12 months.

I agree with your here LD... I think Wales will fear playing AUS if they lose to England. Unless AUS lose to Wales this year they will go into the match with 7 victories in a row against them.

How can they turn that around?

We all know the calls... on our day etc but deep down we know it rarely happens.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think the Twickenham crowd will be behind during their World Cup pool match?

From a standing start, I'd say they'd be behind the Welsh. However, the way the schedule is set up, we'll already know the results of England's matches against these two. The crowd could well be influenced by how we've done against them.

I remember how important the crowd support was for France during their 1999 comeback win over the All Blacks, and it could be a factor in this match too.

I don't doubt for a second that the Welsh will get its supporters at Twickenham but make no mistake... they won't be dominant numbers and therefore why would the English support the welsh?

The Crowd support in 1999 you talk off... it was a neutral venue and Paris is a lot closer to London than Auckland is. The French travel very well and in large numbers as well as having 500,000 in London alone.

We only have to travel an hour or two down the M4 mun, we will be there in our droves, trust me, you could put the MS in the middle of Timbuktu and we would find our way there to fill it.

I'm sure they could but I think the English also see it as the big match too. Only 3MM people in Wales to buy tickets, only 55MM in England. I've heard not all the seats will be available either right... that clubs have ticket rights as in the usual rules as well as corporate seats and debentures so I can't see how Wales will get more than 10,000 tickets combined... if they do.... well done to them.

Spin-off question from the AWJ debate- is Bradley Davies likely to get a look in for Wales this Autumn? 

Seems to have been off the radar with injuries, but now he's back it would be great to see him wearing red again. A couple of seasons ago he was a beast for Wales, and one of those players that as an opposition fan, you're genuinely wary of.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think the Twickenham crowd will be behind during their World Cup pool match?

From a standing start, I'd say they'd be behind the Welsh. However, the way the schedule is set up, we'll already know the results of England's matches against these two. The crowd could well be influenced by how we've done against them.

I remember how important the crowd support was for France during their 1999 comeback win over the All Blacks, and it could be a factor in this match too.

I don't doubt for a second that the Welsh will get its supporters at Twickenham but make no mistake... they won't be dominant numbers and therefore why would the English support the welsh?

The Crowd support in 1999 you talk off... it was a neutral venue and Paris is a lot closer to London than Auckland is. The French travel very well and in large numbers as well as having 500,000 in London alone.

We only have to travel an hour or two down the M4 mun, we will be there in our droves, trust me, you could put the MS in the middle of Timbuktu and we would find our way there to fill it.

I'm sure they could but I think the English also see it as the big match too. Only 3MM people in Wales to buy tickets, only 55MM in England. I've heard not all the seats will be available either right... that clubs have ticket rights as in the usual rules as well as corporate seats and debentures so I can't see how Wales will get more than 10,000 tickets combined... if they do.... well done to them.

Trust me, there will be a lot more than 10,000 Welshmen in Twickenham than that. There will be twice as many people than that in Richmond and the surrounding area's aswell.

Of course Twickenham will be behind England for their matches. I was curious instead about how the crowd will fall when England aren't playing.

Wales and Australia will both have their own supporters but its likely that a good part of the crowd will be nominally uncommitted when they meet.

If England lose to both Wales and Australia, then our Cup will be over and I suspect Twickenham will support Wales unless there was bad blood after our meeting.

If we have lost to either Wales or Australia, then it will likely depend on bonus points and points difference. The only game left in the pool will be England's game against Uruguay, which we would expect to win.

If England have dropped a match, we might hope that the winning team loses in the Wales v Australia match, since it might mean we can still top the group.

If however, our bonus points and points difference is poor, we might hope the team which beat us goes on to win, which would probably see them top the group, but at least allow us a second place qualification.

Current form is the only measure right now, then who can improve from here to the RWC, Wales, England and Australia between them can all cancel each other out.

I reckon the average neutral English viewer would support wales unless that meant England going out.
You don't really get any 'anyone but Wales' supporters!
Personally, if I get tickets for that I will just be hoping for a good game, the last world cup game I saw live was NZ vs France in 1999, so another game like that would be just perfect...!

bluestonevedder wrote:Spin-off question from the AWJ debate- is Bradley Davies likely to get a look in for Wales this Autumn? 

Seems to have been off the radar with injuries, but now he's back it would be great to see him wearing red again. A couple of seasons ago he was a beast for Wales, and one of those players that as an opposition fan, you're genuinely wary of.

I was wondering that watching him come on for Wasps the other day. Evans seems to have injury issues, AWJ blows hot and cold (although don't tell the Welsh), Charteris seems to have injury issues and Jake Bull is a relative notice (although does seem to have something about him).

A fully fit and on form Bradley Davies could well push into the Wales WC XV in my view. He's only 27 and just needs a good run of games.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Spin-off question from the AWJ debate- is Bradley Davies likely to get a look in for Wales this Autumn? 

Seems to have been off the radar with injuries, but now he's back it would be great to see him wearing red again. A couple of seasons ago he was a beast for Wales, and one of those players that as an opposition fan, you're genuinely wary of.

I was wondering that watching him come on for Wasps the other day. Evans seems to have injury issues, AWJ blows hot and cold (although don't tell the Welsh), Charteris seems to have injury issues and Jake Bull is a relative notice (although does seem to have something about him).

A fully fit and on form Bradley Davies could well push into the Wales WC XV in my view. He's only 27 and just needs a good run of games.

Any Wasps fans on here who could tell us how he is doing ?

Bathman_in_London wrote:
You don't really get any 'anyone but Wales' supporters!

Apart from everyone on here.

Sainty my old chum, i'm pretty sure you're the only person who feels like that!

The Saint wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:
You don't really get any 'anyone but Wales' supporters!

Apart from everyone on here.

Yet at the same time they're not exactly everyone else's favourite 2nd team.

In terms of neutrals I reckon it would probably go

1. Ireland - How often do you get some chap saying, oh I'll support Ireland, I'm practically Irish myself (my great great grandmother was Irish afterall).

2. NZ - The Haka, the entertaining play.

3. France - the entertainment, the great and the dire all tied into one match.

4. Scotland  - Sympathy.

Then you have the Samoans, Tongans, Fijians, Welsh, Italians, Australians all thrown about the same.

and penultimate least liked is probably a tie between SA & Argentina

and finally

sorry to say

England.

That's probably about right fa, though in recent years I think Wales were least favourite on internet forums. The balance has probably shifted back towards England now.

The Saint wrote:That's probably about right fa, though in recent years I think Wales were least favourite on internet forums. The balance has probably shifted back towards England now.

yeah on here I think the Welsh have managed to somehow turn back hundreds of years worth of resentment amongst the rugby community (for other reasons obviously) and become the pantomime villain of the boards.

Let it stay on England I say.

So no facts produced yet, just "probably" "form" "The ref" "twickers" are being used no FACTS!!!!

Come on Twickers is hardly a fortress any more, so lets look at the last five years then Wales have won twice at Twickers in the last five years!!!!!!! ouch.

When was that? 2012 and...?

Facts here`s some. to date 5 of the 7 RWC`s have featured home sides in them,3 have
won them.No RWCwinner has lost a game at any stage,no 3Ns winner has won it and
RWC in the same year.

Groups were seeded in 2011 when the top 4 were probably,NZ,SA,France and AUS.Host
country is seeded to usually.Could be argued that AUS are the seed side in the Group
based on the then IRB ratings.Only 5 teams have made a Final,4 won it  ,3 more than 1.

Favourites is about money and 3 to1 an England win RWC is generous,better odds
should be available at the Group stage.

2014 isn`t 2015,form ,squads,results now may mean nothing next year,the Home side
will always be favoured by the bookies.

Home advantage will mean something Refs tend to give 50-50 decisions to the Ref.
Weather Conditions may suit the more arm wrestle style,rather than the running game.
Wales head to head with England only one game between them BUT Home results are
against them.

BBC or ITV will probably have TV rights,so Barnes,SCW,etc will be doing the chalk
board bit.etc.

IF Australia sort them selves out they aremore than capable of taking the Group.
BUT England PROBABLY purely on Home advantage would be Favourites. BUT
any team in any Group can swing a surprise and only fools write any team off.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:So no facts produced yet, just "probably" "form" "The ref" "twickers" are being used no FACTS!!!!

Come on Twickers is hardly a fortress any more, so lets look at the last five years then Wales have won twice at Twickers in the last five years!!!!!!! ouch.

As a correction, it is actually once in the last five years and twice in the last 26 (and once at Wembley too of course).

If you don’t think Wales will fear us there, fair enough. England has a superior record against Wales at Twickenham over the last ten years and certainly won’t fear the Welsh either. Respect yes, fear no. Saying that though, as an England fan I fear Australia more and we could both definitely be fighting it out for second place.

As an aside, Twickenham isn’t the fortress it used to be back in the early 2000s but Lancaster is rebuilding the old walls and we win a lot more than we lose (except against NZ and SA, who certainly haven’t thumped us there)

You initially asked why England are being perceived as favourites? Well, I suppose the facts you requested are that the immediate recent history (as in the last games we played) is that England have beaten both teams and are ranked above both in the world rankings. This could definitely change if Aus win at Twickenham next month and England come unstuck in Cardiff in February next year though.

Do Australia have world class experience to top the group?

Is England really the most hated team?

Obviously this is grown from general feelings outside of the game of rugby...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is England really the most hated team?

Obviously this is grown from general feelings outside of the game of rugby...

I don't think SA is as hated or disliked as the England team, but we are not much liked.

Without starting a huge debate...i do think may of the sentiments towards certain teams are from nfluences external to rugby.

England top most peoples list of hated countries around the world.

I would partially agree with you Geordie Falcon.

If you talk to NZ supporters, many of them will have AUstralia as their second team, purely because they are neighbours, the same applies to many supporters, tey will support a second team in close proximity.

SA stands alone, they have no top tier neighbours, so there is little affinity for them.

History will influence the way many supporters select their second team as well. Politics play a big role in this.

BUt, having said that, many will support a second team because they either like some of the players or the manner in which the team plays rugby.

Ex-players do nothing to help England's cause either, players like Will Carling and Austin Healey really used to wind me up with their arrogant remarks about Wales, but in saying that, I have a lot of English friends, and they are all very good people, we have some serious banter when it comes to rugby, it's just places like this where people get a little precious, especially the English on here lately, I was tarred and feathered on one thread the other day, just for teasing about that Bath winger.

LD, as an Englishman i get genuinely fed up of the constant "arrogant" tag thrown towards us.

One or two peoples views dont transfer to the whole nation. As you show with your English friends.

The likes of Carling etc..well sometimes they were wrong but sometimes they spoke the truth...its just many other countries dont like hearing the truth from "arrogant english" people like him. Its precious as you say....but lets be clear...it runs both ways! Not just from the English guys.

As per the bath winger....i must have missed that one...i can only it refers to the one in the army (or previously so) well i have my views but ill leave them away from here for the moment.

English and Welsh should get along better - after all Wales have an English defence coach and quite a few of the Welsh team have ties to England....

You shouldn't hate us - you don't hate North,Warburton,Lydiate,Cuthbert etc do you?

Certainly shouldn't judge English because of Stuart Barnes and Jeremy Guscott!

Lorddowlais Roko as a representative of the British army he shouldn't have his loyalty questioned. As far as I am concerned - if he is willing to fight for the British army he should be allowed to represent one of the home nations at rugby.

beshocked wrote:English and Welsh should get along better - after all Wales have an English defence coach and quite a few of the Welsh team have ties to England....

You shouldn't hate us - you don't hate North,Warburton,Lydiate,Cuthbert etc do you?

Certainly shouldn't judge English because of Stuart Barnes and Jeremy Guscott!

Lorddowlais Roko as a representative of the British army he shouldn't have his loyalty questioned. As far as I am concerned - if he is willing to fight for the British army he should be allowed to represent one of the home nations at rugby.

Lets be honest Barnes and Guscott are quite possibly the least patriotic English rugby players in memory. Barnes hates England, always has. Lots of resentment over behind Andrews waterboy for a decade. Guscott, he's always been an individual, never a team man.... if he thought the best chance of winning was becoming a springbok in his day he would probably have up sticks and moved down the SA.

Healy is just a tool. Top rugby player mind, few players could play 9-15 at a decent level.... Healy was one of them.

GeordieFalcon wrote:LD, as an Englishman i get fed up of the constant "arrogant" tag thrown towards us.

One or two peoples views dont transfer to the whole nation. As you shows with your English friends.

The likes of Carling etc..well sometimes they were wrong but sometimes they spoke the truth...its just many other countries dont like hearing the truth from "arrogant english" people like him. Its precious as you say....but lets be clear...it runs both ways! Not just from the English guys.

As per the bath winger....i must have missed that one...i can only it refers to the one in the army (or previously so) well i have my views but ill leave them away from here for the moment.

The thing Geordie, a lot of people will tar "the whole" with the same brush because of a few, most of my English friends are from Newcastle, the Winlaton area, I find them so similar to us Welsh, both in attitude towards life in general and the standard of living ect, I also know a lot of people from Bristol and Bath, who always seem to phone me when Wales lose, the cheeky barstewards, I always have good fun with them, but then, and I will never forget it, in 2005 I was at the MS to watch Wales V England, I was sat next to a guy from Romford in east London, I know this because he was teasing me about being from the valley's and he was saying things like where he came from in London were about 20yrs more up to date, I found this all very funny and gave him some banter back, but then what I did not like, when singing the anthems he belted out God Save the Queen, but all through my anthem he heckled me and started making his own version of the Welsh language and the what not, I jokingly told him to behave, but he kept on and on, all through the game as well, and at the final whistle, when Wales won he was very abusive towards me and my wife, and the people who he was with were getting embarrassed as well, after the game in the pub, my wife and I, and a few of our friends discussed it, but within half an hour we all forgot about it, but, not all people are the same, just as myself and everybody who was with us forgot about it, there will be just as many people who will never forget it, and because of ONE idiot, the lot of you get tarred, now before anybody jumps on me, I know we all have our individuals, and when I was with my friends in Bristol, in Bradley Stoke in 2008, I had to take this Welsh guy who turned up out of nowhere aside and tell him he was making a tool of all of us, so please behave, and thus he wound his neck in a bit, but that is the example I give you, weather people are right or not, perhaps some things are better not said at all, especially when you are in the media like Carling and Healey, just because they could sometimes be arrogant, it does not mean you all are.

beshocked wrote:English and Welsh should get along better - after all Wales have an English defence coach and quite a few of the Welsh team have ties to England....

You shouldn't hate us - you don't hate North,Warburton,Lydiate,Cuthbert etc do you?

Certainly shouldn't judge English because of Stuart Barnes and Jeremy Guscott!

Lorddowlais Roko as a representative of the British army he shouldn't have his loyalty questioned. As far as I am concerned - if he is willing to fight for the British army he should be allowed to represent one of the home nations at rugby.

Beshocked, I do not hate the English, hate is such a strong word, I have supported England in the past, I supported them in their two world cup finals.

I was not questioning Roko' right to play for England, I just mentioned that his name was not a traditional English name, although I am against him playing for any British team just because he was in the army, but that is for another debate.

LordDowlais wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:LD, as an Englishman i get fed up of the constant "arrogant" tag thrown towards us.

One or two peoples views dont transfer to the whole nation. As you shows with your English friends.

The likes of Carling etc..well sometimes they were wrong but sometimes they spoke the truth...its just many other countries dont like hearing the truth from "arrogant english" people like him. Its precious as you say....but lets be clear...it runs both ways! Not just from the English guys.

As per the bath winger....i must have missed that one...i can only it refers to the one in the army (or previously so) well i have my views but ill leave them away from here for the moment.

The thing Geordie, a lot of people will tar "the whole" with the same brush because of a few, most of my English friends are from Newcastle, the Winlaton area, I find them so similar to us Welsh, both in attitude towards life in general and the standard of living ect, I also know a lot of people from Bristol and Bath, who always seem to phone me when Wales lose, the cheeky barstewards, I always have good fun with them, but then, and I will never forget it, in 2005 I was at the MS to watch Wales V England, I was sat next to a guy from Romford in east London, I know this because he was teasing me about being from the valley's and he was saying things like where he came from in London were about 20yrs more up to date, I found this all very funny and gave him some banter back, but then what I did not like, when singing the anthems he belted out God Save the Queen, but all through my anthem he heckled me and started making his own version of the Welsh language and the what not, I jokingly told him to behave, but he kept on and on, all through the game as well, and at the final whistle, when Wales won he was very abusive towards me and my wife, and the people who he was with were getting embarrassed as well, after the game in the pub, my wife and I, and a few of our friends discussed it, but within half an hour we all forgot about it, but, not all people are the same, just as myself and everybody who was with us forgot about it, there will be just as many people who will never forget it, and because of ONE idiot, the lot of you get tarred, now before anybody jumps on me, I know we all have our individuals, and when I was with my friends in Bristol, in Bradley Stoke in 2008, I had to take this Welsh guy who turned up out of nowhere aside and tell him he was making a tool of all of us, so please behave, and thus he wound his neck in a bit, but that is the example I give you, weather people are right or not, perhaps some things are better not said at all, especially when you are in the media like Carling and Healey, just because they could sometimes be arrogant, it does not mean you all are.

People don't tend to remember you in victory, they tend to remember you in defeat.

I think the worst thing about Carling was his interview post 1995 SF when he said that Lomu was a freak and he hoped he would get lost to league, the sooner the better. He simply didn't get it.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:English and Welsh should get along better - after all Wales have an English defence coach and quite a few of the Welsh team have ties to England....

You shouldn't hate us - you don't hate North,Warburton,Lydiate,Cuthbert etc do you?

Certainly shouldn't judge English because of Stuart Barnes and Jeremy Guscott!

Lorddowlais Roko as a representative of the British army he shouldn't have his loyalty questioned. As far as I am concerned - if he is willing to fight for the British army he should be allowed to represent one of the home nations at rugby.

Beshocked, I do not hate the English, hate is such a strong word, I have supported England in the past, I supported them in their two world cup finals.

I was not questioning Roko' right to play for England, I just mentioned that his name was not a traditional English name, although I am against him playing for any British team just because he was in the army, but that is for another debate.

I get what you're saying LD on Roko's right to play for any of the 4 he wants, like the channel islanders. Its not right, you should have some affinity with your representative nation... say he joined the Welsh Guards yet was not based in Wales etc.... I wouldn't have a problem with him playing for Wales as at least he would have some cultural identity to Wales as a nation.

If he was based in England in a British English regiment and played for an English club I think its right he would play for England only. Otherwise it's simply... who can a play for, which is the easiest to get into, which is most likely to give me personal glory etc.

Names, whats in a name huh?

In SA I know 2 chaps in particular

One called Johan van Niekerk. I started to speak to him in Afrikaans and he stopped me within seconds and said, sorry, I'm not Afrikaans and don't understand it. Another chap I was once introduced to as Quentin Duckworth, quite possibly the most Afrikaans chap you'll ever meet.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:English and Welsh should get along better - after all Wales have an English defence coach and quite a few of the Welsh team have ties to England....

You shouldn't hate us - you don't hate North,Warburton,Lydiate,Cuthbert etc do you?

Certainly shouldn't judge English because of Stuart Barnes and Jeremy Guscott!

Lorddowlais Roko as a representative of the British army he shouldn't have his loyalty questioned. As far as I am concerned - if he is willing to fight for the British army he should be allowed to represent one of the home nations at rugby.

Beshocked, I do not hate the English, hate is such a strong word, I have supported England in the past, I supported them in their two world cup finals.

I was not questioning Roko' right to play for England, I just mentioned that his name was not a traditional English name, although I am against him playing for any British team just because he was in the army, but that is for another debate.

I get what you're saying LD on Roko's right to play for any of the 4 he wants, like the channel islanders. Its not right, you should have some affinity with your representative nation... say he joined the Welsh Guards yet was not based in Wales etc.... I wouldn't have a problem with him playing for Wales as at least he would have some cultural identity to Wales as a nation.

If he was based in England in a British English regiment and played for an English club I think its right he would play for England only. Otherwise it's simply... who can a play for, which is the easiest to get into, which is most likely to give me personal glory etc.

Names, whats in a name huh?

In SA I know 2 chaps in particular

One called Johan van Niekerk. I started to speak to him in Afrikaans and he stopped me within seconds and said, sorry, I'm not Afrikaans and don't understand it. Another chap I was once introduced to as Quentin Duckworth, quite possibly the most Afrikaans chap you'll ever meet.

Yes, I suppose there is no getting away from this debate, but, the fact that Roko is in the British army should not give any extra credence for him playing for a British national team, the fact is, he qualifies for England because he has been playing for bath for the required qualification time, the fact that he was in the army should make no difference.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:English and Welsh should get along better - after all Wales have an English defence coach and quite a few of the Welsh team have ties to England....

You shouldn't hate us - you don't hate North,Warburton,Lydiate,Cuthbert etc do you?

Certainly shouldn't judge English because of Stuart Barnes and Jeremy Guscott!

Lorddowlais Roko as a representative of the British army he shouldn't have his loyalty questioned. As far as I am concerned - if he is willing to fight for the British army he should be allowed to represent one of the home nations at rugby.

Beshocked, I do not hate the English, hate is such a strong word, I have supported England in the past, I supported them in their two world cup finals.

I was not questioning Roko' right to play for England, I just mentioned that his name was not a traditional English name, although I am against him playing for any British team just because he was in the army, but that is for another debate.

I get what you're saying LD on Roko's right to play for any of the 4 he wants, like the channel islanders. Its not right, you should have some affinity with your representative nation... say he joined the Welsh Guards yet was not based in Wales etc.... I wouldn't have a problem with him playing for Wales as at least he would have some cultural identity to Wales as a nation.

If he was based in England in a British English regiment and played for an English club I think its right he would play for England only. Otherwise it's simply... who can a play for, which is the easiest to get into, which is most likely to give me personal glory etc.

Names, whats in a name huh?

In SA I know 2 chaps in particular

One called Johan van Niekerk. I started to speak to him in Afrikaans and he stopped me within seconds and said, sorry, I'm not Afrikaans and don't understand it. Another chap I was once introduced to as Quentin Duckworth, quite possibly the most Afrikaans chap you'll ever meet.

Yes, I suppose there is no getting away from this debate, but, the fact that Roko is in the British army should not give any extra credence for him playing for a British national team, the fact is, he qualifies for England because he has been playing for bath for the required qualification time, the fact that he was in the army should make no difference.

Well I would hope that say any deployments abroad would not cut his qualification. Read he is in the royal scots dragoons surprised he has England residency?

fa0019 I like Austin Healey. I think he's very knowledgeable and like his banter. I can understand why he people don't though - there's a reason he's known as the leicester lip.


To be fair to Carling - Lomu was a freak - an unstoppable force of nature. One of the greatest rugby players of all time.


Lorddowlais I disagree.

Roko by being in the British army has effectively said he is willing to fight and potentially die for Britain. As far I am concerned that means he is well within his rights to represent a British team. Putting your body on the line quite literally is not a decision taken lightly.

Roko might not be born in Britain but his heart seems to be in Britain. That's what I want from rugby players who represent the national side.

It's why for example I prefer Roko to S.Armitage. S.Armitage might be more qualified to represent England but I feel that S.Armitage's heart is with Toulon and the French paycheque, not England.

If course England are favourites to win the group.

FACTS...

England have highest IRB ranking
England play all 3 matches at home (and wales at Australia at HQ also) which is on average worth 3 extra IRB ranking points
England have the best recent record against either country

In addition. Wales best years for this crop of players look to be behind them, unless gatland can pull off a miraculous new gameplan and ditch some of his previously untouchables. AND Australia are currently in disarray...Beale episode, rumours of Mckenzie being forced out, ARU nearing financial ruin and hence having to cut player salaries and bonuses big time.

England have their issues too, but these are
Mostly to do with selection from the very deep bench that England currently is blessed with. And nailing down key combinations in the backs.

beshocked wrote:fa0019 I like Austin Healey. I think he's very knowledgeable and like his banter. I can understand why he people don't though - there's a reason he's known as the leicester lip.


To be fair to Carling - Lomu was a freak - an unstoppable force of nature. One of the greatest rugby players of all time.


Lorddowlais I disagree.

Roko by being in the British army has effectively said he is willing to fight and potentially die for Britain. As far I am concerned that means he is well within his rights to represent a British team. Putting your body on the line quite literally is not a decision taken lightly.

Roko might not be born in Britain but his heart seems to be in Britain. That's what I want from rugby players who represent the national side.

It's why for example I prefer Roko to S.Armitage. S.Armitage might be more qualified to represent England but I feel that S.Armitage's heart is with Toulon and the French paycheque, not England.

Beshocked, I do not want to de-rail this thread, but your career path should bare no influence on your nationality. Yes, the kid is very brave
as are all our men and women in the armed forces, and none of them take these decisions lightly, I am very proud of our service men and women and I think they should get a lot more support from our government than what they currently do, but just because they are in the army, it does not make them MORE British than you or I. The kid is still a Fijian, a very brave one, but a Fijian still, now he qualifies for England because he has been playing for Bath for the required time, not because he was brave enough to join the army. Let's look at it this way, I am Welsh, you are English, we both join the army, can we then decide to play for anyone of the British national sides ?

LD

As to the cockney guy at the MS Wales game...we have them everywhere. We even have a Falcons fan who is n the verge of getting banned by our fans becuase he stands and is abusive to everyone...

Carlings comment towards Lomu...is that really viewed badly? The guy was a freak! Carling was praising him in a sarcastic way.