serious debate how can England be favourites for the group of death?

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Tue 14 Oct - 23:55

First topic message reminder :

Over the last decade thats where we will take our facts from no further because players over that time will not be involved.

So the last decade Wales have been better than England not talking about grandslams or who claimed more Southern Hemisphere scalps!
IM TALKING HEAD TO HEAD! WALES HAVE BEEN ON THE WINNING SIDE V ENGLAND THE MOST IN THE LAST DECADE FACT!

Australia have also been on the winning side the most over the last decade v Wales and England FACT!

So why all this hype fro the English players,coaches,fans and media that England will win the group?
Please dont tell me its from good old fashioned "positive thinking will make us win".
We all know that only facts matter and the FACTS are massively against England.

So please i ask you to counter act my FACTS, dont sling mud , give me facts back on why im wrong.

by LordDowlais Fri 17 Oct - 10:56

fa0019 wrote:LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!

Yeah, well, I'm Welsh, but I can begrudgingly see it being Sexton. Sad

by beshocked Fri 17 Oct - 11:09

LordDowlais wrote:
beshocked wrote:Lord Dowlais admittedly I haven't trawled through all your postings but I am sure you are one of the posters who wanted Biggar on the Lions tour instead of Farrell Jr.

The Saint I never said you would go to the world cup with 30 players missing. I was talking about the lack of strength of depth in Wales as you felt that the group of players that went to Japan were incredibly weak.

Your Welsh born XV would have two players from the Japan tour? I thought the concensus in Wales that all the players on the Japan tour were $%^&.

It's funny isn't it? You use the lack of experience excuse for the Japan tour yet hail Samson Lee as a world class player in the making despite him having only had a few games for Wales? (Okay I admit I exaggerate a bit but Lee has already been hyped up).

Never even heard of Baker and Allen yet they would make a Welsh born XV?

You use the lack of experience excuse when it suits you.

In comparison I am far less kind to less experienced England players, perhaps unfairly - I have targetted Nowell's lack of inexperience (particularly in the 1st half) as one reason for England failing to beat France this year and losing the chance of the GS.

Lancaster threw Nowell into the deep end against France, his gamble failed in my opinion. I will continue to hold it as a black mark against Lancaster. ( I don't think you Welsh should let go of that loss to Japan as it's inexcusable).

You could argue Lancaster picked Nowell because of injuries to some wing options - I would point out he didn't pick the most experienced England winger option and has mismanaged the wing options for some time by putting FBs there on too many occasions.

Oh and whose fault is it that England winger's don't perform to their best ability? Lancaster of course.

I have criticised Nowell a lot as a frustation for the loss of a GS opportunity but ultimately it was Lancaster's fault, not Nowell's.

I know it seems like I continually criticise Wales - I suppose I do - it's because I think you can do better. Wales are a good side but you do have your weaknesses just as England do.

I certainly don't hold back my criticism of certain England players . Also I acknowledge the faults of players I like too (hard to believe I guess). I criticise Lancaster and the coaches too.

Beshocked, I know you cannot be bothered but perhaps thats because you know you are wrong, here it took me all of 30 seconds to find it, read and enjoy:-

https://www.606v2.com/t55805-possible-lions-2017

And just incase you cannot be bothered to click on the link, this was my reply to ironbru:-

No mention of Dan Biggar and Rhys Webb in that list, for me Dan Biggar will be the next Lion no. 10.

See how I said NEXT. I will accept your apology in advance.

I am not wrong.

I am talking about you postings before the Lions tour - not your recent post. As I said I cannot be bothered going through posts over a year old.

by LordDowlais Fri 17 Oct - 11:21

beshocked wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
beshocked wrote:Lord Dowlais admittedly I haven't trawled through all your postings but I am sure you are one of the posters who wanted Biggar on the Lions tour instead of Farrell Jr.

The Saint I never said you would go to the world cup with 30 players missing. I was talking about the lack of strength of depth in Wales as you felt that the group of players that went to Japan were incredibly weak.

Your Welsh born XV would have two players from the Japan tour? I thought the concensus in Wales that all the players on the Japan tour were $%^&.

It's funny isn't it? You use the lack of experience excuse for the Japan tour yet hail Samson Lee as a world class player in the making despite him having only had a few games for Wales? (Okay I admit I exaggerate a bit but Lee has already been hyped up).

Never even heard of Baker and Allen yet they would make a Welsh born XV?

You use the lack of experience excuse when it suits you.

In comparison I am far less kind to less experienced England players, perhaps unfairly - I have targetted Nowell's lack of inexperience (particularly in the 1st half) as one reason for England failing to beat France this year and losing the chance of the GS.

Lancaster threw Nowell into the deep end against France, his gamble failed in my opinion. I will continue to hold it as a black mark against Lancaster. ( I don't think you Welsh should let go of that loss to Japan as it's inexcusable).

You could argue Lancaster picked Nowell because of injuries to some wing options - I would point out he didn't pick the most experienced England winger option and has mismanaged the wing options for some time by putting FBs there on too many occasions.

Oh and whose fault is it that England winger's don't perform to their best ability? Lancaster of course.

I have criticised Nowell a lot as a frustation for the loss of a GS opportunity but ultimately it was Lancaster's fault, not Nowell's.

I know it seems like I continually criticise Wales - I suppose I do - it's because I think you can do better. Wales are a good side but you do have your weaknesses just as England do.

I certainly don't hold back my criticism of certain England players . Also I acknowledge the faults of players I like too (hard to believe I guess). I criticise Lancaster and the coaches too.

Beshocked, I know you cannot be bothered but perhaps thats because you know you are wrong, here it took me all of 30 seconds to find it, read and enjoy:-

https://www.606v2.com/t55805-possible-lions-2017

And just incase you cannot be bothered to click on the link, this was my reply to ironbru:-

No mention of Dan Biggar and Rhys Webb in that list, for me Dan Biggar will be the next Lion no. 10.

See how I said NEXT. I will accept your apology in advance.

I am not wrong.

I am talking about you postings before the Lions tour - not your recent post. As I said I cannot be bothered going through posts over a year old.

You are lying, I have never said that Biggar should have gone on the last Lions tour, why would I have said it ? He is only now showing his minerals, unless you can provide evidence, as I have above, then please do not accuse me of anything.

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 11:30

fa0019 wrote:LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!

Nah, the Lions have Marnitz Boshoff, exciting new flyhalf, lots of pace, very educated boot and solid defender. Wink

by funnyExiledScot Fri 17 Oct - 11:39

Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!

Nah, the Lions have Marnitz Boshoff, exciting new flyhalf, lots of pace, very educated boot and solid defender.

One of my favourite pundit phrases! An "educated boot" or a "boot like a magic wand". I haven't heard of a "very" educated boot though, so I assume we're talking PHD??

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 11:42

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!

Nah, the Lions have Marnitz Boshoff, exciting new flyhalf, lots of pace, very educated boot and solid defender.

One of my favourite pundit phrases! An "educated boot" or a "boot like a magic wand". I haven't heard of a "very" educated boot though, so I assume we're talking PHD??

Nope, home schooled boot. Very Happy

by offload Fri 17 Oct - 11:55

A late contribution perhaps - to the original question.

I would place England as favourites in the group:
- Home advantage, not to be underestimated
- Wales record against Australia, very poor
- Australia have a good world cup record - raise their game.
- England have a good world cup record - 3 finals
- Wales don't. Only decent team we beat in 2011 was Ireland

Any of the three can get out of the group and so much depends on player availability and form going in - but not unreasonable to make England favourites.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 17 Oct - 12:16

Biltong wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!

Nah, the Lions have Marnitz Boshoff, exciting new flyhalf, lots of pace, very educated boot and solid defender.

One of my favourite pundit phrases! An "educated boot" or a "boot like a magic wand". I haven't heard of a "very" educated boot though, so I assume we're talking PHD??

Nope, home schooled boot.

Perhaps in Duncan Weir's case we could talk about a "dropped out of school boot"!

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 12:27

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Biltong wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!

Nah, the Lions have Marnitz Boshoff, exciting new flyhalf, lots of pace, very educated boot and solid defender.

One of my favourite pundit phrases! An "educated boot" or a "boot like a magic wand". I haven't heard of a "very" educated boot though, so I assume we're talking PHD??

Nope, home schooled boot.

Perhaps in Duncan Weir's case we could talk about a "dropped out of school boot"!

Can't we simply produce a kicker who has a range larger than a 12yr old asthmatic kid with a gammy leg. Paterson, Laidlaw, Weir....

is this just a correction of the planets after we had Big Gav smashing them over from his own 10metre line 20-30 years ago???

by Geordie Fri 17 Oct - 12:41

Big Gav smashing them over from his own 10metre line 20-30 years ago???.

He missed a couple of criminal unforgiveable ones against us in big competitions aswelll....

Though, you had a good team back then though...tough as old boots, aggressive...

by LordDowlais Fri 17 Oct - 12:50

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Biltong wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!

Nah, the Lions have Marnitz Boshoff, exciting new flyhalf, lots of pace, very educated boot and solid defender.

One of my favourite pundit phrases! An "educated boot" or a "boot like a magic wand". I haven't heard of a "very" educated boot though, so I assume we're talking PHD??

Nope, home schooled boot.

Perhaps in Duncan Weir's case we could talk about a "dropped out of school boot"!

Duncan Weir in my opinion is one of the best no 10's Scotland have produced in a long time.

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 12:55

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Biltong wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:LD... you been stealing from grandpa's old medicine cabinet again!!

Next Lions flyhalf.... you mean the golden Lions in Joburg? Only sensible suggestion!!!

Nah, the Lions have Marnitz Boshoff, exciting new flyhalf, lots of pace, very educated boot and solid defender.

One of my favourite pundit phrases! An "educated boot" or a "boot like a magic wand". I haven't heard of a "very" educated boot though, so I assume we're talking PHD??

Nope, home schooled boot.

Perhaps in Duncan Weir's case we could talk about a "dropped out of school boot"!

Duncan Weir in my opinion is one of the best no 10's Scotland have produced in a long time.

Doesn't say much though does it given his recent peers!!!

Yeah he's decent but the search for a all action 10 like Townsend remains, not simply a distributing quarterback type.

by jimmyinthewell68 Fri 17 Oct - 13:40

From a Welshman at this moment in time it doesn't look good for us but neither did 2011 and we did ok there . Its possible to beat England , i would love to say that about Australia but can't . We just dont do enough to beat them . Look at the 2nd test against south Africa and that's how frustrating it is to be Welsh . So before the AIs and six nations i think we won't make it out of the group . Know more in march

by disneychilly Fri 17 Oct - 15:26

All I know is that if England (well Oz and Wales too) come second in their group then they are in deep shoite. Home advantage yes but South Africa are better than them. If Wales can get up that game then it'll really throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 15:31

disneychilly wrote:All I know is that if England (well Oz and Wales too) come second in their group then they are in deep shoite. Home advantage yes but South Africa are better than them. If Wales can get up that game then it'll really throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

I'm not so sure myself on SA being better than England. We'll see how they fare in the coming months but I see them about equal at the moment.

by quinsforever Fri 17 Oct - 15:31

I think the only team capable of beating SA at HQ is England frankly, based on the current disarray in Oz team, and fact that England like playing SA. We almost won the RWC final in 2007 against enormous odds so England will always fancy their chances in a one-off at home. Not saying it would happen, but it's a lot more likely than you suggest

For example I bet the team SA would not want to face in the QFs is hands down an England at home

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 15:41

quinsforever wrote:I think the only team capable of beating SA at HQ is England frankly, based on the current disarray in Oz team, and fact that England like playing SA. We almost won the RWC final in 2007 against enormous odds so England will always fancy their chances in a one-off at home. Not saying it would happen, but it's a lot more likely than you suggest

For example I bet the team SA would not want to face in the QFs is hands down an England at home

SA have a lot of problems which aren't going away. Their team looks very old.... the longer we go on, the worse it gets for them.

1) Their captain JDV is old now. He gives his all but frankly another year of rugby isn't going to do him any favours to his form/speed etc. Gone are the days he would stand on the margins and intercept a pass to score under the posts. There is no alternative this far out, bismarck maybe.

2) They are still playing Matfield, will they bring in Flip over him once fit.... Meyer should do but that doesn't mean he will. He is already simply a lineout jumper now. Again... another 12 months won't help.

3) The boks have no 13. This is their biggest issue. They are vulnerable here in attack and a chap like Tuilagi if fed the right ball would tear into the hole's SA have. Serfontein lacks the pace, Engelbrecht/De Jong aren't the best tacklers.

4) They lack a good all round 9. Du Preez is too old, Hougaard can't kick.

5) Habana/Pietersen again... too old for test wingers. Both still have the skill but are a couple of steps slower than they were. Chaps like Yarde would tear them to pieces in a foot race. The backline lacks a little pace.

It reminds me of the England cricket team in 2013.... hanging on but one step away from being smashed by young upstarts.... very much like how SA 07 put England to the sword in the pool stages.

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 16:02

fa0019 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:I think the only team capable of beating SA at HQ is England frankly, based on the current disarray in Oz team, and fact that England like playing SA. We almost won the RWC final in 2007 against enormous odds so England will always fancy their chances in a one-off at home. Not saying it would happen, but it's a lot more likely than you suggest

For example I bet the team SA would not want to face in the QFs is hands down an England at home

SA have a lot of problems which aren't going away. Their team looks very old.... the longer we go on, the worse it gets for them.

1) Their captain JDV is old now. He gives his all but frankly another year of rugby isn't going to do him any favours to his form/speed etc. Gone are the days he would stand on the margins and intercept a pass to score under the posts. There is no alternative this far out, bismarck maybe.

2) They are still playing Matfield, will they bring in Flip over him once fit.... Meyer should do but that doesn't mean he will. He is already simply a lineout jumper now. Again... another 12 months won't help.

3) The boks have no 13. This is their biggest issue. They are vulnerable here in attack and a chap like Tuilagi if fed the right ball would tear into the hole's SA have. Serfontein lacks the pace, Engelbrecht/De Jong aren't the best tacklers.

4) They lack a good all round 9. Du Preez is too old, Hougaard can't kick.

5) Habana/Pietersen again... too old for test wingers. Both still have the skill but are a couple of steps slower than they were. Chaps like Yarde would tear them to pieces in a foot race. The backline lacks a little pace.

It reminds me of the England cricket team in 2013.... hanging on but one step away from being smashed by young upstarts.... very much like how SA 07 put England to the sword in the pool stages.

Not sure I agree with you on much here.

Old?

Vicki is playing because our other locks are injured
Jean is getting old and I would like to see him retire, but he is still a very good rugby player, his only real weakness is he is limited.

Other than that the next oldest is Bryan, and he is steps above most wings in the world.

Hougaard doesn't need to be a kicker, I prefer not having a nine that kicks, let Pollard and Lambie do the kicking.

As for our midfield, it can be fixed, Meyer just needs to have some gutspa.

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 16:29

Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:I think the only team capable of beating SA at HQ is England frankly, based on the current disarray in Oz team, and fact that England like playing SA. We almost won the RWC final in 2007 against enormous odds so England will always fancy their chances in a one-off at home. Not saying it would happen, but it's a lot more likely than you suggest

For example I bet the team SA would not want to face in the QFs is hands down an England at home

SA have a lot of problems which aren't going away. Their team looks very old.... the longer we go on, the worse it gets for them.

1) Their captain JDV is old now. He gives his all but frankly another year of rugby isn't going to do him any favours to his form/speed etc. Gone are the days he would stand on the margins and intercept a pass to score under the posts. There is no alternative this far out, bismarck maybe.

2) They are still playing Matfield, will they bring in Flip over him once fit.... Meyer should do but that doesn't mean he will. He is already simply a lineout jumper now. Again... another 12 months won't help.

3) The boks have no 13. This is their biggest issue. They are vulnerable here in attack and a chap like Tuilagi if fed the right ball would tear into the hole's SA have. Serfontein lacks the pace, Engelbrecht/De Jong aren't the best tacklers.

4) They lack a good all round 9. Du Preez is too old, Hougaard can't kick.

5) Habana/Pietersen again... too old for test wingers. Both still have the skill but are a couple of steps slower than they were. Chaps like Yarde would tear them to pieces in a foot race. The backline lacks a little pace.

It reminds me of the England cricket team in 2013.... hanging on but one step away from being smashed by young upstarts.... very much like how SA 07 put England to the sword in the pool stages.

Not sure I agree with you on much here.

Old?

Vicki is playing because our other locks are injured
Jean is getting old and I would like to see him retire, but he is still a very good rugby player, his only real weakness is he is limited.

Other than that the next oldest is Bryan, and he is steps above most wings in the world.

Hougaard doesn't need to be a kicker, I prefer not having a nine that kicks, let Pollard and Lambie do the kicking.

As for our midfield, it can be fixed, Meyer just needs to have some gutspa.

Picture the boks in 14 months time BB. Would you be confident with Jean as your captain? He can tackle, he can drive but his attacking game worsens by the year as he gets older.

Take this side for instance

Forwards
Mtawarira (30), Bismarck (31), Jannie (33), Eben (24), Flip (30), Willem (31), Frans (30), Duane (29). In the pack you have 6 30+ year olds. and 7 older than 29.

Backs
Du Preez (33), Pollard (21), Habana (33), Jean (34), Serfontein (22), Pietersen (29), Le Roux (26).

The team has an average age of 29+ come the RWC, with 9 players over the age of 30 and the ave. lowers due to Pollard, Serfontein & Eben being v. young. Gets a lot worse if Fourie comes in for Serfontein.

Yes I agree new players like Malherbe should come in but I'm not sure they will. Meyer is very conservative generally and you can't blood new guys in the RWC... Frans Steyn was an exception, he was multi-talented, already a huge lump andonly got in due to injury to JDV himself.

Do you remember the England 03 team nicknamed Dad's Army. They just got to the finish line but were done within 6 months.

After looking at the ages of the starters at the time their ave. age was 28.4 with only 6 guys aged over 30. So they are younger than the prospective SA side 2015 and have 3 less 30year olds to boot.

by Bullsbok Fri 17 Oct - 16:51

fa0019 wrote:
disneychilly wrote:All I know is that if England (well Oz and Wales too) come second in their group then they are in deep shoite. Home advantage yes but South Africa are better than them. If Wales can get up that game then it'll really throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

I'm not so sure myself on SA being better than England. We'll see how they fare in the coming months but I see them about equal at the moment.

Thats quite an interesting view FA considering the Boks havent lost to a Euro Side for a good 4 years or so now . Just how do you figure England are on Par with the Boks at the moment. I'm not saying they're not but just want to see the reasoning behind this summary

by Bullsbok Fri 17 Oct - 17:03

fa0019 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:I think the only team capable of beating SA at HQ is England frankly, based on the current disarray in Oz team, and fact that England like playing SA. We almost won the RWC final in 2007 against enormous odds so England will always fancy their chances in a one-off at home. Not saying it would happen, but it's a lot more likely than you suggest

For example I bet the team SA would not want to face in the QFs is hands down an England at home

SA have a lot of problems which aren't going away. Their team looks very old.... the longer we go on, the worse it gets for them.

1) Their captain JDV is old now. He gives his all but frankly another year of rugby isn't going to do him any favours to his form/speed etc. Gone are the days he would stand on the margins and intercept a pass to score under the posts. There is no alternative this far out, bismarck maybe.

2) They are still playing Matfield, will they bring in Flip over him once fit.... Meyer should do but that doesn't mean he will. He is already simply a lineout jumper now. Again... another 12 months won't help.

3) The boks have no 13. This is their biggest issue. They are vulnerable here in attack and a chap like Tuilagi if fed the right ball would tear into the hole's SA have. Serfontein lacks the pace, Engelbrecht/De Jong aren't the best tacklers.

4) They lack a good all round 9. Du Preez is too old, Hougaard can't kick.

5) Habana/Pietersen again... too old for test wingers. Both still have the skill but are a couple of steps slower than they were. Chaps like Yarde would tear them to pieces in a foot race. The backline lacks a little pace.

It reminds me of the England cricket team in 2013.... hanging on but one step away from being smashed by young upstarts.... very much like how SA 07 put England to the sword in the pool stages.

Lets dissect this for a bit , starting with JDV . Yes he's lost a step but the man for some reason continues to always find himself in the right place at the right time when it matters. If you're good enough your age doesnt matter same with Matfield who is still peerless come lineout time and surprisingly influential in attack too . If BoD ,Gregan , Mccaw can do it why not them ? Fourie Du Preez? i'd take a fit Fourie over just about every other scrumhalf in the world bar maybe Aaron Smith.

Habana & Pietersen , too old for test wingers and lost a step? An old Habana still gets the job done . As for Piertesen well theres Cornal Hendricks wearing 14 now . And at 13 Serfontein was not half bad . In fact i think he was rather good. He's a defensive powerhouse in midfield and although he doesnt have express pace he's got power and youth to make up for that . The only real worry would be that JDV jumps out of the line too often otherwise that midfield defense would be solid . So yes the team has its old elements but Meyer despite all the naysayers has brought in a lot of young blood which balances it out . Hougie Pollard Serfontein Hendricks and Le Roux ,5 of the 7 backs are under 27 . Thats got to count for something

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 17:08

Bullsbok wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:I think the only team capable of beating SA at HQ is England frankly, based on the current disarray in Oz team, and fact that England like playing SA. We almost won the RWC final in 2007 against enormous odds so England will always fancy their chances in a one-off at home. Not saying it would happen, but it's a lot more likely than you suggest

For example I bet the team SA would not want to face in the QFs is hands down an England at home

SA have a lot of problems which aren't going away. Their team looks very old.... the longer we go on, the worse it gets for them.

1) Their captain JDV is old now. He gives his all but frankly another year of rugby isn't going to do him any favours to his form/speed etc. Gone are the days he would stand on the margins and intercept a pass to score under the posts. There is no alternative this far out, bismarck maybe.

2) They are still playing Matfield, will they bring in Flip over him once fit.... Meyer should do but that doesn't mean he will. He is already simply a lineout jumper now. Again... another 12 months won't help.

3) The boks have no 13. This is their biggest issue. They are vulnerable here in attack and a chap like Tuilagi if fed the right ball would tear into the hole's SA have. Serfontein lacks the pace, Engelbrecht/De Jong aren't the best tacklers.

4) They lack a good all round 9. Du Preez is too old, Hougaard can't kick.

5) Habana/Pietersen again... too old for test wingers. Both still have the skill but are a couple of steps slower than they were. Chaps like Yarde would tear them to pieces in a foot race. The backline lacks a little pace.

It reminds me of the England cricket team in 2013.... hanging on but one step away from being smashed by young upstarts.... very much like how SA 07 put England to the sword in the pool stages.

Lets dissect this for a bit , starting with JDV . Yes he's lost a step but the man for some reason continues to always find himself in the right place at the right time when it matters. If you're good enough your age doesnt matter same with Matfield who is still peerless come lineout time and surprisingly influential in attack too . If BoD ,Gregan , Mccaw can do it why not them ? Fourie Du Preez? i'd take a fit Fourie over just about every other scrumhalf in the world bar maybe Aaron Smith.

Habana & Pietersen , too old for test wingers and lost a step? An old Habana still gets the job done . As for Piertesen well theres Cornal Hendricks wearing 14 now . And at 13 Serfontein was not half bad . In fact i think he was rather good. He's a defensive powerhouse in midfield and although he doesnt have express pace he's got power and youth to make up for that . The only real worry would be that JDV jumps out of the line too often otherwise that midfield defense would be solid . So yes the team has its old elements but Meyer despite all the naysayers has brought in a lot of young blood which balances it out . Hougie Pollard Serfontein Hendricks and Le Roux ,5 of the 7 backs are under 27 . Thats got to count for something

Weren't you worried that a young serfontein was smashed by near 5-10 yards by AAC... quick but not super quick in Newlands over 50 metres. He's not a 13. He hasn't got the pace. Defence yes, pace no.... he will be exploited here.

Remember 12 months is a long time for a 30+ year old.

This bok side, the prospective and probable one showed is older than the England 03 team called dad's army. Isn't that worrying? Yes they won, but only just and within a year they were gone. They only had 6 players over 30 too... the boks will have 9.

by quinsforever Fri 17 Oct - 17:09

Home advantage counts

England haven't faced SA for 2 (or is it 3?) years and are a quite different team in terms of personnel.

Not saying England are favourites against SA right now, but I think after the AIs they might be. Stranger things have happened. England after all very nearly got a result in NZ with a team fairly weakened by the end of season AP playoffs and injury. NZ had their absentees too of course.

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 17:13

fa0019 wrote:
Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:I think the only team capable of beating SA at HQ is England frankly, based on the current disarray in Oz team, and fact that England like playing SA. We almost won the RWC final in 2007 against enormous odds so England will always fancy their chances in a one-off at home. Not saying it would happen, but it's a lot more likely than you suggest

For example I bet the team SA would not want to face in the QFs is hands down an England at home

SA have a lot of problems which aren't going away. Their team looks very old.... the longer we go on, the worse it gets for them.

1) Their captain JDV is old now. He gives his all but frankly another year of rugby isn't going to do him any favours to his form/speed etc. Gone are the days he would stand on the margins and intercept a pass to score under the posts. There is no alternative this far out, bismarck maybe.

2) They are still playing Matfield, will they bring in Flip over him once fit.... Meyer should do but that doesn't mean he will. He is already simply a lineout jumper now. Again... another 12 months won't help.

3) The boks have no 13. This is their biggest issue. They are vulnerable here in attack and a chap like Tuilagi if fed the right ball would tear into the hole's SA have. Serfontein lacks the pace, Engelbrecht/De Jong aren't the best tacklers.

4) They lack a good all round 9. Du Preez is too old, Hougaard can't kick.

5) Habana/Pietersen again... too old for test wingers. Both still have the skill but are a couple of steps slower than they were. Chaps like Yarde would tear them to pieces in a foot race. The backline lacks a little pace.

It reminds me of the England cricket team in 2013.... hanging on but one step away from being smashed by young upstarts.... very much like how SA 07 put England to the sword in the pool stages.

Not sure I agree with you on much here.

Old?

Vicki is playing because our other locks are injured
Jean is getting old and I would like to see him retire, but he is still a very good rugby player, his only real weakness is he is limited.

Other than that the next oldest is Bryan, and he is steps above most wings in the world.

Hougaard doesn't need to be a kicker, I prefer not having a nine that kicks, let Pollard and Lambie do the kicking.

As for our midfield, it can be fixed, Meyer just needs to have some gutspa.

Picture the boks in 14 months time BB. Would you be confident with Jean as your captain? He can tackle, he can drive but his attacking game worsens by the year as he gets older.

Take this side for instance

Forwards
Mtawarira (30), Bismarck (31), Jannie (33), Eben (24), Flip (30), Willem (31), Frans (30), Duane (29). In the pack you have 6 30+ year olds. and 7 older than 29.

Backs
Du Preez (33), Pollard (21), Habana (33), Jean (34), Serfontein (22), Pietersen (29), Le Roux (26).

The team has an average age of 29+ come the RWC, with 9 players over the age of 30 and the ave. lowers due to Pollard, Serfontein & Eben being v. young. Gets a lot worse if Fourie comes in for Serfontein.

Yes I agree new players like Malherbe should come in but I'm not sure they will. Meyer is very conservative generally and you can't blood new guys in the RWC... Frans Steyn was an exception, he was multi-talented, already a huge lump andonly got in due to injury to JDV himself.

Do you remember the England 03 team nicknamed Dad's Army. They just got to the finish line but were done within 6 months.

After looking at the ages of the starters at the time their ave. age was 28.4 with only 6 guys aged over 30. So they are younger than the prospective SA side 2015 and have 3 less 30year olds to boot.

FA, you are looking at the oldest possible side.

First of all, that is not an old pack, Jannie and Flip might not even play then, you could have Malherbe or V D Merwe at prop, you should see P du Toit there. Hougaard has a good chace of playing, the only "old" plaer in yoyr team that worries me is de Villiers

by LordDowlais Fri 17 Oct - 17:18

Christ on a bike, not only are England favourites to top their pool, they are favourites to beat the Springboks now as well, look out New Zealand the English are playing at home so you better be ready, and people on here call me deluded picard

by Bullsbok Fri 17 Oct - 17:31

quinsforever wrote:Home advantage counts

England haven't faced SA for 2 (or is it 3?) years and are a quite different team in terms of personnel.

Not saying England are favourites against SA right now, but I think after the AIs they might be. Stranger things have happened. England after all very nearly got a result in NZ with a team fairly weakened by the end of season AP playoffs and injury. NZ had their absentees too of course.

On what grounds would England be favorites against SA, this is what i fail to understand tbh. Home advantage counts for a lot yes but a one of win doesnt automatically make you favourites next time round. Case in point Boks v Blacks. Boks won but should they play tomorrow at Ellis Park i'd still call the All blacks favourites . I honestly think you have to beat the opposition at least 2 times before you get the favourites tag. Home or not .

by quinsforever Fri 17 Oct - 17:39

England are slight favourites over SA to win the RWC. But that takes into account England being favourites to win their group and avoid SA or NZ until the final

England would be favourites to beat SA in a World Cup QF if they beat them in the AIs. As I suggested above.

Qn for you - would you rather play England, AUs or wales in a QF at HQ?

by Bullsbok Fri 17 Oct - 17:43

quinsforever wrote:England are slight favourites over SA to win the RWC. But that takes into account England being favourites to win their group and avoid SA or NZ until the final

England would be favourites to beat SA in a World Cup QF if they beat them in the AIs. As I suggested above.

Qn for you - would you rather play England, AUs or wales in a QF at HQ?

Tbh Rather Wales then England last the Aussies. England havent beaten the Boks in 8 years and they play a similar game to South Africa.In which case i'd back the Boks to be better at their own game . Wales actually look more likely to beat the Boks than England they just cant close games out . And of course the Aussies . Well they've knocked us out of 2 world cups and i'd back them to get the hattrick

by quinsforever Fri 17 Oct - 17:48

Fair enough. I think the Aussies are a team on the verge of implosion. Normally I would agree with you that they can beat anyone on their day, but I just think they have too much internal strife and a Union which is about to cut all their salaries, for them to be as dangerous as they should.

by Bullsbok Fri 17 Oct - 17:51

quinsforever wrote:Fair enough. I think the Aussies are a team on the verge of implosion. Normally I would agree with you that they can beat anyone on their day, but I just think they have too much internal strife and a Union which is about to cut all their salaries, for them to be as dangerous as they should.

England have the aussies number come world cup time , sadly the aussies have ours Crying or Very sad

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 17:56

Bullsbok wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Fair enough. I think the Aussies are a team on the verge of implosion. Normally I would agree with you that they can beat anyone on their day, but I just think they have too much internal strife and a Union which is about to cut all their salaries, for them to be as dangerous as they should.

England have the aussies number come world cup time , sadly the aussies have ours

Prior to 2011 the results were 1-1 each, the QF in 2011 means little in the way that OZ have our number.

by quinsforever Fri 17 Oct - 18:00

AIs are going to be fun! England play NZ, SA, Samoa, Oz. In that order.

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 19:26

Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Biltong wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
quinsforever wrote:I think the only team capable of beating SA at HQ is England frankly, based on the current disarray in Oz team, and fact that England like playing SA. We almost won the RWC final in 2007 against enormous odds so England will always fancy their chances in a one-off at home. Not saying it would happen, but it's a lot more likely than you suggest

For example I bet the team SA would not want to face in the QFs is hands down an England at home

SA have a lot of problems which aren't going away. Their team looks very old.... the longer we go on, the worse it gets for them.

1) Their captain JDV is old now. He gives his all but frankly another year of rugby isn't going to do him any favours to his form/speed etc. Gone are the days he would stand on the margins and intercept a pass to score under the posts. There is no alternative this far out, bismarck maybe.

2) They are still playing Matfield, will they bring in Flip over him once fit.... Meyer should do but that doesn't mean he will. He is already simply a lineout jumper now. Again... another 12 months won't help.

3) The boks have no 13. This is their biggest issue. They are vulnerable here in attack and a chap like Tuilagi if fed the right ball would tear into the hole's SA have. Serfontein lacks the pace, Engelbrecht/De Jong aren't the best tacklers.

4) They lack a good all round 9. Du Preez is too old, Hougaard can't kick.

5) Habana/Pietersen again... too old for test wingers. Both still have the skill but are a couple of steps slower than they were. Chaps like Yarde would tear them to pieces in a foot race. The backline lacks a little pace.

It reminds me of the England cricket team in 2013.... hanging on but one step away from being smashed by young upstarts.... very much like how SA 07 put England to the sword in the pool stages.

Not sure I agree with you on much here.

Old?

Vicki is playing because our other locks are injured
Jean is getting old and I would like to see him retire, but he is still a very good rugby player, his only real weakness is he is limited.

Other than that the next oldest is Bryan, and he is steps above most wings in the world.

Hougaard doesn't need to be a kicker, I prefer not having a nine that kicks, let Pollard and Lambie do the kicking.

As for our midfield, it can be fixed, Meyer just needs to have some gutspa.

Picture the boks in 14 months time BB. Would you be confident with Jean as your captain? He can tackle, he can drive but his attacking game worsens by the year as he gets older.

Take this side for instance

Forwards
Mtawarira (30), Bismarck (31), Jannie (33), Eben (24), Flip (30), Willem (31), Frans (30), Duane (29). In the pack you have 6 30+ year olds. and 7 older than 29.

Backs
Du Preez (33), Pollard (21), Habana (33), Jean (34), Serfontein (22), Pietersen (29), Le Roux (26).

The team has an average age of 29+ come the RWC, with 9 players over the age of 30 and the ave. lowers due to Pollard, Serfontein & Eben being v. young. Gets a lot worse if Fourie comes in for Serfontein.

Yes I agree new players like Malherbe should come in but I'm not sure they will. Meyer is very conservative generally and you can't blood new guys in the RWC... Frans Steyn was an exception, he was multi-talented, already a huge lump andonly got in due to injury to JDV himself.

Do you remember the England 03 team nicknamed Dad's Army. They just got to the finish line but were done within 6 months.

After looking at the ages of the starters at the time their ave. age was 28.4 with only 6 guys aged over 30. So they are younger than the prospective SA side 2015 and have 3 less 30year olds to boot.

FA, you are looking at the oldest possible side.

First of all, that is not an old pack, Jannie and Flip might not even play then, you could have Malherbe or V D Merwe at prop, you should see P du Toit there. Hougaard has a good chace of playing, the only "old" plaer in yoyr team that worries me is de Villiers

Come on BB I know you don't believe that!! Your really think Meyer will play eben and du Toit. Never in a million years... Maybe du Toit if eben is injured but he would never trust those two to run a lineout. It would either be flip, Matfield or even bring back Kruger.... No one else even Becker is probably too late. He won't trust two youngsters to run the lineout.

So let's look at the side

Mtawarita 29. Lock solid choice. performer but let's be honest the 2nd man on the teamsheet, not enough black players in pack already so he is locked in.
Bismarck 31. Lock solid choice. 2nd choice Strauss also 31.
Jannie 33. Probably most vulnerable. Next choice frans Malherbe 24 but very injury prone.
Eben 24. Lock solid choice. Du Toit 23 next choice if he can stay fit.
Flip 30. Likely. Then Matfield 38. Next it would be crisis ie juandre kruger 30.
Alberts 31. Likely. Not convinced mohoje would start if willem out. More likely botha 23.
Louw. Lock solid 30. Next Coetzee 24.
Vermeulen 29. Lock solid. Then maybe Whiteley, probably spies 30 if fit.

So out of the 6 30+ players in the pack we have at best Malherbe replacing jonnie and maybe just maybe Coetzee replacing louw.... But that's unlikely. So definitely 5 in the pack and maybe 6.

Backs... We know Meyer still sees du preez as first choice. It's so obvious. Jean and Bryan are locked in.

Maybe Hendricks instead of Pietersen but that's still min 8 30+ players and a team older than England's dad's army of 2003. I still think come the crunch Meyer will choose Pietersen.

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 19:48

FA, do the same exercise with the All Blacks.

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 20:25

Biltong wrote:FA, do the same exercise with the All Blacks.

It's not just the average age BB... Take NZ in 2011... On the final I counted 5 aged 30+. England had 6 in 2003 and SA look like they will have min. 8 probably 9 in 2015. It's a lot.

Is that sustainable? We're talking 6 games of rugby in 6 weeks. Tour rugby, living in hotels away from family.

It's not just that the boks are very old as a team... They also happen to be the heaviest bunch too, at least in huge pack. Their back row fully fit averages 115kg and the pack weighs in close to 930kg.

So if you were facing an elderly pack and a heavy pack what would you do against them.... I'd run the ball, I'd make them run, run everything, run them to the ground. I recall NZ has seen this as a good strategy against them.

NZ currently do also look old... I don't expect mealamu to make it but I think also unless they change their side it could be a step too far. SA and NZ will probably face each other in a battle royals in the SF.... Say they come up against a much fresher ENG, AUS or FRA.... They could easily get stung here.

That is where I'd be most worried.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Fri 17 Oct - 20:29

So no FACTS being used, just if the moon is pulling the gravity of twickers at he right moment then all planets of the solar system align they will thump SA and NZ Laugh

God i love 606.

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 20:49

We are not going to have 8 or 9 players on the field aged 30+

Meyer has been replacing the older players, but injury didn't permit it this year.

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 21:00

Biltong wrote:We are not going to have 8 or 9 players on the field aged 30+

Meyer has been replacing the older players, but injury didn't permit it this year.

Out of the pack BB which ones will go?

jannie is closest right. Agreed.

Next it's just not likely

Beast is locked in. Bissie too and Strauss is same age.

Meyer won't change to have an inexperienced lock grouping. Perhaps Arno will come in over willem but we'd be talking injury to willem and Arno having a bumper injury free season. Buts that's it.... Still 4 locked in aged 30+ in pack regardless.

Beast, Bessie/Strauss, flip/victor, louw.

JDV is locked in as is habana. Probably du preez as Meyer loves his game.

Min, min 7. Almost certain 8 and perhaps 9.

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 21:00

NZ next year.

Ma'a Nonu 33
Conrad Smith 33
Dan Carter 33
Ben Franks 31
Kieran Read 30
Richie McCaw 34
Liam Messam 31
Jerome Kaino 32
Kevin Mealamu 36
Jeremy Thrush 30

Are they too old?

by **Biltong** Fri 17 Oct - 21:06

fa0019 wrote:
Biltong wrote:We are not going to have 8 or 9 players on the field aged 30+

Meyer has been replacing the older players, but injury didn't permit it this year.

Out of the pack BB which ones will go?

jannie is closest right. Agreed.

Next it's just not likely

Beast is locked in. Bissie too and Strauss is same age.

Meyer won't change to have an inexperienced lock grouping. Perhaps Arno will come in over willem but we'd be talking injury to willem and Arno having a bumper injury free season. Buts that's it.... Still 4 locked in aged 30+ in pack regardless.

Beast, Bessie/Strauss, flip/victor, louw.

JDV is locked in as is habana. Probably du preez as Meyer loves his game.

Min, min 7. Almost certain 8 and perhaps 9.

Well let's go for who is most likely to be in the RWC squad.

Beast
Bismarck, Adriaan
Jannie, Frans Malherbe
Eben Etzebeth, Pieter Steph du Toit, Victor Matfield, Flip v d Merwe
Marcel Coetzee, Schalk Burger, Duane Vermeulen, Willem Alberts, Frans Louw
Hougaard, Ruan Pienaar, Fourie du Preez
Pollard, Lambie,
Jan Serfontein, Damien de Allende, Jean de Villiers, JJ Engelbrecht/JP PIetersen/Jaque FOurie
Bryan Habana, Cornal Hendricks,
Willie le Roux

Who is too old there?

Victor and Jean.

by fa0019 Fri 17 Oct - 23:12

30 is not necessarily old but you can't have too many in your side. They can't do the hard yards they could and a lot of those guys have played muchors rugby than their age suggests. In football the top clubs stop giving contracts beyond 2 years for over 30year olds and later on they are on 12 month rolling contracts. It starts at 30.

Beast, bissie, Strauss, Janine, flip, victor, burger, Alberts, louw, du preez, de villiers, Fourie, habana. That's a lot in anyone's book.most of those guys aren't squad players either.

I read online the other day about the over30s club in pro sport. How they would have to be conditioned far more carefully, drop training and simply couldn't do the yards that they used to.

It he more I think about it the more I think Meyer needs to bring in someone like Arno back into the side once fully fit. Great tackler which is what they need at blindside. Even kolosi, the guy has an amazing engine.

Say they face England in a 2 test series. Yeah, I'd back SA to be favourites. Say England face SA in the final next year after 6 tough games.... I'd say England being the younger would probably be fresher and that turns the tables.

Tournament play is all about conditioning, squad rotation, player management, fitness and injuries.

by The Saint Fri 17 Oct - 23:16

Biltong wrote:NZ next year.

Ma'a Nonu 33
Conrad Smith 33
Dan Carter 33
Ben Franks 31
Kieran Read 30
Richie McCaw 34
Liam Messam 31
Jerome Kaino 32
Kevin Mealamu 36
Jeremy Thrush 30

Are they too old?

The guy succeeding Hansen might have a job on his hands replacing those lot. A few on the list must be some of the greatest ever All Blacks to get that many caps.

by SecretFly Sat 18 Oct - 9:55

fa0019 wrote:30 is not necessarily old but you can't have too many in your side. They can't do the hard yards they could and a lot of those guys have played muchors rugby than their age suggests. In football the top clubs stop giving contracts beyond 2 years for over 30year olds and later on they are on 12 month rolling contracts. It starts at 30.

Beast, bissie, Strauss, Janine, flip, victor, burger, Alberts, louw, du preez, de villiers, Fourie, habana. That's a lot in anyone's book.most of those guys aren't squad players either.

I read online the other day about the over30s club in pro sport. How they would have to be conditioned far more carefully, drop training and simply couldn't do the yards that they used to.

It he more I think about it the more I think Meyer needs to bring in someone like Arno back into the side once fully fit. Great tackler which is what they need at blindside. Even kolosi, the guy has an amazing engine.

Say they face England in a 2 test series. Yeah, I'd back SA to be favourites. Say England face SA in the final next year after 6 tough games.... I'd say England being the younger would probably be fresher and that turns the tables.

Tournament play is all about conditioning, squad rotation, player management, fitness and injuries.

I'm not certain but almost damn sure ( Wink

) that when this place was busier in the good ol' days, when the freaks were still aplenty and when the stat Kings ruled from their laboriously fussy thrones - I'm almost certain some Stat king brought up the figures that stated it's always a comparatively 'aging' side that does best in the WC?
Nope, life is too short for me to go back and revise those figures or to examine again the truth or lie in those figures, but I seem to recall that maturity and experience were classed as the defining 'extra' button of a successful run at the WC.

by Bullsbok Sat 18 Oct - 11:54

And the Wobblies remind everyone not to count them out just yet

by ChequeredJersey Sat 18 Oct - 11:59

By throwing a match they had won? Wink

by **Pal Joey** Sat 18 Oct - 12:19

Nice one CJ.

Was really hoping they might have their 48th win against the ABs tonight but alas... they fell just short.

Still, it was a huge improvement from the debacle in Argentina and they are still carrying a few players who really are not proper international standard, imo... or players whom the ABs can relatively easily accommodate both physically and mentally.

by **Pal Joey** Sat 18 Oct - 12:43

Ewen McKenzie handed in his letter of resignation this morning. He's just announced it during the post-match press conference. Poor bloke... looked shattered. Kept it short then walked out of the room.

by Bullsbok Sat 18 Oct - 12:46

Jake the Snake must be kicking himself for signing to Tonga two days ago Very Happy

by **Pal Joey** Sat 18 Oct - 13:08

Oh God. We just need one of our own thanks, Bulls. I'm so glad he signed up with Tonga.

Although we are very similar countries in many respects I've always believed it's best to have a true national coach for a sport as important as rugby.

By the same token... I'd hate to see (for instance) Shane Warne coach England in cricket.
That would be too much to bear. Surely he would never do that. There should be a Law against that sort of thing.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 18 Oct - 13:13

Didn't mean it, Loaded Dog, it was a good match and Aus were the better side. Just needed more serenity at the end, and NZ are so good at stealing the win if it remains close. Not surprised McKenzie has left as it sounds like he had lost the dressing room and this performance was much like France in the 2011 RWC final where they almost upped their game to spite their coach.

The players at least showed they have it, hard to pick another coach though. Cheika won't be allowed to leave his club, right?

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