serious debate how can England be favourites for the group of death?

First topic message reminder :

Over the last decade thats where we will take our facts from no further because players over that time will not be involved.

So the last decade Wales have been better than England not talking about grandslams or who claimed more Southern Hemisphere scalps!
IM TALKING HEAD TO HEAD! WALES HAVE BEEN ON THE WINNING SIDE V ENGLAND THE MOST IN THE LAST DECADE FACT!

Australia have also been on the winning side the most over the last decade v Wales and England FACT!

So why all this hype fro the English players,coaches,fans and media that England will win the group?
Please dont tell me its from good old fashioned "positive thinking will make us win".
We all know that only facts matter and the FACTS are massively against England.

So please i ask you to counter act my FACTS, dont sling mud , give me facts back on why im wrong.

quinsforever wrote:If course England are favourites to win the group.

FACTS...

England have highest IRB ranking
England play all 3 matches at home (and wales at Australia at HQ also) which is on average worth 3 extra IRB ranking points
England have the best recent record against either country

In addition. Wales best years for this crop of players look to be behind them, unless gatland can pull off a miraculous new gameplan and ditch some of his previously untouchables. AND Australia are currently in disarray...Beale episode, rumours of Mckenzie being forced out, ARU nearing financial ruin and hence having to cut player salaries and bonuses big time.

England have their issues too, but these are
Mostly to do with selection from the very deep bench that England currently is blessed with. And nailing down key combinations in the backs.

I love this ignorrance, the only CROP of players that you could mean are Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins, all the rest are nowhere near past their best, and we have players who have already been 1st choice instead of those two anyway. Well at least we are back on topic.

If course England are favourites to win the group.

FACTS...

England have highest IRB ranking

Irrelevant

England play all 3 matches at home (and wales at Australia at HQ also)

Major reason, yes.

which is on average worth 3 extra IRB ranking points

Relevant to rankings, irrelevant to the games on the day.

England have the best recent record against either country

Yes, England has the best recent form.

In addition. Wales best years for this crop of players look to be behind them, unless gatland can pull off a miraculous new gameplan and ditch some of his previously untouchables.

AND Australia are currently in disarray...Beale episode, rumours of Mckenzie being forced out, ARU nearing financial ruin and hence having to cut player salaries and bonuses big time.

England have their issues too, but these are
Mostly to do with selection from the very deep bench that England currently is blessed with. And nailing down key combinations in the backs.

THe question of how much each team will improve can be asked about all three teams.

GeordieFalcon wrote:LD

As to the cockney guy at the MS Wales game...we have them everywhere. We even have a Falcons fan who is n the verge of getting banned by our fans becuase he stands and is abusive to everyone...

Carlings comment towards Lomu...is that really viewed badly? The guy was a freak! Carling was praising him in a sarcastic way.

Will Carlings best moment was when Mr Blobby had him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:LD

As to the cockney guy at the MS Wales game...we have them everywhere. We even have a Falcons fan who is n the verge of getting banned by our fans becuase he stands and is abusive to everyone...

Carlings comment towards Lomu...is that really viewed badly? The guy was a freak! Carling was praising him in a sarcastic way.

Not sure I agree with you there... there was a lot of bitterness in his comment.... a lot of the old school tie, not right for our game etc IMO.

FA

Maybe thats where the perceived arrogance claims come from then...a missunderstanding.

Im not Old School tie brigade but i can detect when those types are having a laugh...and i think this was a case.

It can be misconstrued as arrogance though...

Gatball, aka, route 1b, bosh it around the corner of the ruck/maul, relied principally on players who would struggle to get picked if gatland weren't the coach...Jenkins, Roberts, Philips, Hibbard

Of course wales have talented players. But for the last 6 years they have only played one style of rugby. And the new crop appear to be smaller and faster and demand a different gameplan. Which is what I said above. What i find arrogant is your assumption that only a welsh person can have an informed opinion on welsh rugby.

Carling is a prat but I remember him making that comment live, and it was fine. Actually pretty funny in recognition of how mike Catt got skittled by Lomu near the try line. It didn't come across to me at least as arrogant or racist. It was an admission of England's compete inability to cope with Lomu.

It was one of Carlings best games post 20 mins in. Actually showed what he could do, a captains performance for once. But I myself did read into it another way.

quinsforever I agree with most of that.


As I have said before - it would worry me if Wales picked a scrum half at 9 for Wales on a regular basis!

I do feel that Gatland has taken Wales as far as he can. Gatland ball has generally been effective vs NH sides but against the SH sides it generally hasn't.


I have said many a time how England could improve also - using the wingers effectively would be a start!

It's like Andy Murray's ABE comment. You read it and could think what a ****. Made in jest.

Carling was a cracking player at the top of his game.

So now that we've cleared all that up...

England are the best country in the world...in fact the sun and moon rotate around....you guessed it England.

We'll walk the world cup in fact not much point anyone else turning up...

quinsforever wrote:Gatball, aka, route 1b, bosh it around the corner of the ruck/maul, relied principally on players who would struggle to get picked if gatland weren't the coach...Jenkins, Roberts, Philips, Hibbard

Of course wales have talented players. But for the last 6 years they have only played one style of rugby. And the new crop appear to be smaller and faster and demand a different gameplan. Which is what I said above. What i find arrogant is your assumption that only a welsh person can have an informed opinion on welsh rugby.

Wind your neck in will you please, you said that the best years for this crop of players was behind them. Well Roberts is only 28yrs old, Hibbard is only 32yrs old and Jenkins and Phillips are both 34yrs old, if being past your best is being those ages, then we are all fecked, I will give you, as said earlier that perhaps the years have caught up with Gethin and Adam, but the rest of the team, no way, in the backs Roberts is the oldest at just 28yrs of age, in the pack we have Samson Lee who is only 22yrs old, AWJ who is only 28yrs old, Ian Evans, Bradley Davies, Jake Ball, none of them are thirty yet, and our back row, Warburton, Lydiate, Faletua, Tupiric, Baker, Shingler, are not even past 26yrs old yet, well I am not to sure about Shingler, he might be about 27yrs old, if these players are past there best then god help us all. Also, I do not mind other people having an opinion on Welsh rugby, just do not make stupid assumptions without giving facts, but on the flip side, I think you are right, and Gatlands tactics might be out of date.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Carling was a cracking player at the top of his game.

Yes, that he was, he was probably one of the best in his generation, the thing is, he knew it as well, and he played on it, the only thing that I did not like about him was, not only was he fecking Wales all the time, he was fecking our princess as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's like Andy Murray's ABE comment. You read it and could think what a ****. Made in jest.

He did annoy me with his independence comment though. Not his opinion on it... that oh well, they won't win anyway... and I'll be playing Davis Cup for GB soon too... as Scotland doesn't have a Davis Cup team. Sort of said, I would prefer to represent Scotland in Davis Cup, but given they don't have a team, I might as well play for GB. Not exactly loyal now is it.

I would only want those who want to play for their country, represent the country. He's a great player but it makes no difference if we're losing to Italy or Iran in my opinion. Still in global wilderness, still not close to competing for the title so who cares. Same in rugby, I'd rather have 15 guys on the pitch giving their all for their country rather than a few more wins under my belt.

Sean Connery was stand up. Never tried to use his influence as much as the yes campaign requested. Even though it was his opinion, he didn't want celebrity endorsement alone to be a factor which is the right way about things.

LordDowlais wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Carling was a cracking player at the top of his game.

Yes, that he was, he was probably one of the best in his generation, the thing is, he knew it as well, and he played on it, the only thing that I did not like about him was, not only was he fecking Wales all the time, he was fecking our princess as well.

Good up to 1990... then got a bit fat and lost his edge. Took him years to rediscover form. Years. Probably had about 30 caps to many if we went by form alone.

LD

As a side note...you mention he knew he was a good player.

Would you say that was confidence or arrogance?

Personally id say confidence...which is something i like my players to have on the pitch...maybe even a little arrogance.

Many of the top players through history have had a little bit of that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:  LD

As a side note...you mention he knew he was a good player.

Would you say that was confidence or arrogance?

Personally id say confidence...which is something i like my players to have on the pitch...maybe even a little arrogance.

Many of the top players through history have had a little bit of that.

Again I find myself agreeing with you, I want players to think they are the best, and show confidence AND a little arrogance, although just recently a young Dan Biggar took the arrogance part a little too far on the field, but has since curbed it down a bit, what I meant was, he knew he was good, and he used that as a stick to beat others with in his off the field stuff, like interviews and punditry and the what not, the same as Ben Cohen, with his Shane Who comment.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Carling was a cracking player at the top of his game.

Yes, that he was, he was probably one of the best in his generation, the thing is, he knew it as well, and he played on it, the only thing that I did not like about him was, not only was he fecking Wales all the time, he was fecking our princess as well.

Good up to 1990... then got a bit fat and lost his edge. Took him years to rediscover form. Years. Probably had about 30 caps to many if we went by form alone.

Its hard to drop a captain! Bath bias showing through, but I think De Glandville should have been given a chance sooner, by the time he did he was past his best too sadly. Carling was a good player though, frankly England could do with someone like him now.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Carling was a cracking player at the top of his game.

Yes, that he was, he was probably one of the best in his generation, the thing is, he knew it as well, and he played on it, the only thing that I did not like about him was, not only was he fecking Wales all the time, he was fecking our princess as well.

Good up to 1990... then got a bit fat and lost his edge. Took him years to rediscover form. Years. Probably had about 30 caps to many if we went by form alone.

Its hard to drop a captain! Bath bias showing through, but I think De Glandville should have been given a chance sooner, by the time he did he was past his best too sadly. Carling was a good player though, frankly England could do with someone like him now.

I think bath could do with an athletic pact fullback and put Henson at inside centre. He has been great at fullback but plays like a centre out of position.

Bath would be rapier with a creative inside centre.

Replacing Eastmond with Henson at 12 would be utterly daft!! Have you seen how good the Ford, Eastmond and Joseph axis has become??

Henson should be cover at 12, and provides a nice option for the bench, but Eastmond should absolutely stay at 12 and push for the England jersey.

I do agree about fullback though. Given the way Bath play I don't think Henson is the right style of fullback. A fully fit Nick Abendannon would be good but my choice would be to put Watson at 15 and let him develop into that role. Huge potential there.

As for Carling. Hated him!

I reckon England with Mike Catt at 12 and Paul Hull (remember him) at 15 would have been a more balanced side then Carling and Catt at 12 and 15 respectively from 94 onwards.

Paul Hull wow you must be as old as i am to remember him!!

Ha ha

GeordieFalcon wrote:Paul Hull wow you must be as old as i am to remember him!!

Ha ha

Hull was a very exciting player.

Wasn't he over looked for Webb because Webb was a goal kicker, even though Andrew was probably one of the most accurate kickers of that era...!

Yeah pretty much...and that he played for Bristol

He was indeed a fast exciting full back though.

maestegmafia wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Paul Hull wow you must be as old as i am to remember him!!

Ha ha

Hull was a very exciting player.

Wasn't he over looked for Webb because Webb was a goal kicker, even though Andrew was probably one of the most accurate kickers of that era...!

I think he emerged post Webb. However Andrew was pretty shaky at the beginning... only when he really dedicated himself did he actually start to become deadly accurate... by the end of his career he was as good as the pros today.

Who was the openside flanker who played for Bristol and Coventry i think it was...roughly the same time...Eves?

He was talked up in England circles at the time but never really got there.

Biltong wrote:

If course England are favourites to win the group.

FACTS...

England have highest IRB ranking

Irrelevant

England play all 3 matches at home (and wales at Australia at HQ also)

Major reason, yes.

which is on average worth 3 extra IRB ranking points

Relevant to rankings, irrelevant to the games on the day.

England have the best recent record against either country

Yes, England has the best recent form.

In addition. Wales best years for this crop of players look to be behind them, unless gatland can pull off a miraculous new gameplan and ditch some of his previously untouchables.

AND Australia are currently in disarray...Beale episode, rumours of Mckenzie being forced out, ARU nearing financial ruin and hence having to cut player salaries and bonuses big time.

England have their issues too, but these are
Mostly to do with selection from the very deep bench that England currently is blessed with. And nailing down key combinations in the backs.

THe question of how much each team will improve can be asked about all three teams.

Beg to differ a little there, Biltong.

IRB ranking is as good a measure of current form as we have. It reflects that Australia just lost to Argentina, and it reflects that Wales have never quite been able to get the win against SH opposition. Things can change in the next year, but right now the ranking suggests that England and Australia are closely matched and Wales are a bit behind...

...especially if you look at the "ranking points bonus" for being at home in the way it was designed to be. It's the other way round from how you have described. Home advantage isn't applied to the overall ranking, it's applied to individual matches. When calculating points at stake, the IRB add 3 points to the home side's ranking score because historically that is a good measure of the benefit of being the home side.

So, let's say that next year England are on 88 points, Wales on 89 and Australia on 91. What that means is that all the games would be expected to be close, but England would be expected to lose to Wales and Australia. But if England are playing at home, the IRB's experience is that it's as if they are 3 points better than they actually are - which would mean they would be on an effective 91 points, so expected to narrowly beat Wales and draw with Australia.

Effectively all it's doing is confirming that in close games, home advantage matters - which you've agreed is a big factor.

The question about improvement can be asked about all three teams, I would agree. But England have a couple of advantages in the squad. I could write down England's starting pack for the RWC today and I would probably be right. Furthermore, I could write down a completely different pack that wouldn't give much away to the starting one, and (most of) a third one that wouldn't be very far behind. There's a little uncertainty over wings, but enough international standard ones that there's cover. The centre pairing remains an issue - but we have several pairings that have worked very well. It's a question of picking the one that will perform consistently or even just the right one for each game.

Contrast that with Wales. They are strong in the second row and at hooker. They have two very good but aging props (though Adam Jones's technique looks a bit of a risk under the new engagement) and some less experienced ones who are promising but not really established at test level. Their 4 first choice back rowers are all very good, but Warburton and Lydiate have had serious injury issues. Looking more widely, they've got several key players in France (where preparation and fitness coaching don't match most coaches' international demands, let alone Gatland's) and the WRU / RRW dispute has cost several players a proper pre-season. When Wales put out a fully fit first XXIII they are a handful for anyone - but will Gatland be able to manage that and keep that XV going through the pool stage? I think the chance that enough key players will be broken to weaken the squad is quite high.

I don't have as much info on Australia, but they just got thumped by NZ (more so than England), beaten by Argentina and the squad seems to have imploded into infighting. They are, of course, always capable of getting it together just in time for the RWC, and they know how to win the thing. But the clock is ticking.

It's unlikely that any of the games will be anything less than hard fought, but add home advantage and squad depth / stability England should have the edge. Now watch as Wales storm to a clean sweep in the AIs and win a Grand Slam, while England lose to Samoa and Italy just to spite me.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Who was the openside flanker who played for Bristol and Coventry i think it was...roughly the same time...Eves?

He was talked up in England circles at the time but never really got there.

Derek Eves? He was done for benefits fraud a couple of years ago...

His son Luke looked handy but then he went up to you Geordie and has disappeared?

Yes Derek Eves...

Think he was a very good top league openside for Bristol.

Cant remember his son coming here mind Bathman...

Sadly, Paul Hull had a couple of injuries at the wrong time. One of them opened the door to Catt. Also, Bristol wasn't a fashionable club at the time either.

Jon Callard was the other goalkicking fullback around at the same time as Hull, not Webb. he only picked up five caps to Hull's four.

These days, with big match day squads, Hull probably would have seen more game time. Back then, even if you were on the bench, there was a good chance you wouldn't play. It was still common for the starting XV to finish the match.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes Derek Eves...

Think he was a very good top league openside for Bristol.

Cant remember his son coming here mind Bathman...

WIki says 2010-2012. Apparently back at Bristol now. I believe he was highly thought of when he first came on the scene, but seems to be very much amongst the also rans even at 25 or whatever.

Poorfour, Wales will be just fine come the WC, I am glad people are underestimating us, as we could go under the radar again, just like the last WC, for the first time in donkeys years we are going into the AI without hardly any injuries, only Gareth Davies and Ashley Beck and Ken Owens I think are injured, if we are doing the same come the 6N then I think we could surprise a few people, we have a very young squad, despite what others on here think, only Adam and Gethin are at the end of their international careers and I would not write thise two off either, the following 1st 15 would be able to beat England or Australia:-

Leigh Halfpenny
Alex Cuthbert
George North
John Davies
Jamie Roberts
Dan Biggar
Rhys Webb

Dan Lydiate
Taulupe Faletua
Sam Warburton
Luke Charteris
AWJ
Samson Lee
Richard Hibbard
Paul James

And that is without:-

Liam Williams
Eli Walker
Cory Allen
Scott Williams
Hallam Amos
Rhys Patchell
Mike Phillips

Shingler
Dan Baker
Justin Tipuric
Ian Evans
Bradley Davies
Adam Jones
Ken Owens
Getin Jenkins.

There'll be a winner in this group (of this group) and I'm putting my house on it. No don't thank me for the tip.

Would/could beat them? Of course. They could also beat the All Blacks by 50. They wouldn't be favourites for it though. Would Wales be favourites to beat both England and Australia with both those 15s? (assuming England and Australia both have very few injuries). I don't think they would be. Capable of doing it but not favourites. Would they be favourites of beating one of those teams? Again, it's of course possible (and more likely than them beating both) but still probably not favourite to do it.

At the moment, plenty can change in the next year or so.

Who said anything about Wales being favourites ?

LordDowlais wrote:Who said anything about Wales being favourites ?

Nobody but you do seem to be very confident

guys, guys.................... nothing is going to get sorted on the 'who should win' debate.

What's the point in saying England have a better chance, if on the night or nights they don't take them?  What's the point in saying that Australia have a much better record over Wales than vice versa IF they don't maintain that record on the day they meet Wales in the WC and what is the point of saying 'on their day' about Wales unless the days happen...twice.

I never mind a 'we should' or a 'we're more certain of' discussion but it's the righteous irritation that rises from them that I sometimes have a little laugh at.  The anger that someone might suggest that favouritism has been beaten all too often in the past, in many sports, for it to play much of a favouritism card well in advance of the proposed competition.

It's simply anyone's guess at this point who is going to come out of this threesome alive.

Well personally I can agree to disagree, given that we are all a bit biased, but cant help getting a bit annoyed with an 'I am being realistic but you lot are all biased' attitude.

But what does it matter, it's only a bit of banter

But I'm being realistic...whereas you.................. are being biased

My main worry with this group is the injuries we may see from the group stages could massively disrupt the chances of the two sides who actually go through to the QF.

Fiji, as with all the PI sides, have some huge and very physical units who will look to make a serious statement. Throw in the knockout nature of the games between England, Australia and Wales. Plus as the cherry on the cake all three of those sides have a fair few injury prone players.

I remember when Warburton was named Lions captain many people said they'd put their house on him not making all three tests due to an injury. Well similarly here, whilst I hate to say it, I'd be very surprised to see players such as Warburton, Corbs, Pocock, etc last through a full tournament at that sort of intensity (and that's if they are fit for the start of it in the first place!).

king carlos good point about injuries.

Personally I think injuries would hurt Wales more - after all they lost to Japan when they had some absentees.

England do have a much bigger playing pool which in the case of depth is a nice advantage to have. It does mean that sometimes selection is harder because it's not easy to decide who should start but it means in the case of injuries you have more options.

LD - How many weeks have, say, Warburton, Roberts, Lydiate, Davies and Halfpenny had off with injury since the last RWC? They may be fit right now, but it's 12 hard months to the RWC.

As I said in my original post, if Wales can field a full strength XXIII they can push anyone to the wire. If. Especially in the context of 4 tough pool games.

beshocked wrote:king carlos good point about injuries.

Personally I think injuries would hurt Wales more - after all they lost to Japan when they had some absentees.

England do have a much bigger playing pool which in the case of depth is a nice advantage to have. It does mean that sometimes selection is harder because it's not easy to decide who should start but it means in the case of injuries you have more options.

You do enjoy reminding us of that game don't you this is the team we played :-

Wales: Liam Williams (Scarlets); Harry Robinson (Blues), Owen Williams (Blues), Jonathan Spratt (Ospreys), Tom Prydie (Dragons); Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Blues); Rhys Gill (Saracens), Emyr Phillips (Scarlets), Scott Andrews (Blues), Bradley Davies (Blues, capt), Lou Reed (Blues), James King (Ospreys), Andries Pretorius (Blues), Josh Navidi (Blues).


Of that team,the only players who have improved after just comming through th U21's are Dan Biggar and Liam Williams, Dan Baker and James King, with the with the exception of two or three more, I very much doubt most of them will be capped in the future, lets add to this that of our coaching team, we did not have Gatland, Howley, Edwards, what did you think was going to happen ?

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Who said anything about Wales being favourites ?

Nobody but you do seem to be very confident

I am not very confident at all, I am confident that we stand a good chance, English supporters on here are dismissing any chance Wales have just because the game is at Twickenham, and as I have said earlier, the Welsh team will not worry about playing there.

Ahem....im not dismissing Wales chances.....

Ive said any of the 3 could go through....and hey look at Fiji's back line its scary!...you never know what can happen if they click....

Yes lord dowlais I do like to remind you - generally when you talk about how much you rate Biggar. You might say - well it doesn't matter.

Personally I want my higher profile players stepping up - Biggar should have been the Welsh star shining against Japan.

I see enough talent in that team to be able to beat Japan.

Davies on his own has 42 caps. Biggar is meant to be one of the best fly halves on the planet.... Liam Williams is not a new name in Wales.

It's not a bad side.

As for coaches - one of Japan's coaches was Borthwick who had no prior coaching experience who was just basically drafted in.

Are you telling me that the best Welsh coach is Howley and there is no one else?

Well Geordie, I have heard people saying things like Wales players are past their best, no stregnth in depth ect ect ect.

It's ok though, i do not mind Wales being the underdog, we seem to play better with that name tagged onto us.

beshocked wrote:Yes lord dowlais I do like to remind you - generally when you talk about how much you rate Biggar. You might say - well it doesn't matter.

Personally I want my higher profile players stepping up - Biggar should have been the Welsh star shining against Japan.

I see enough talent in that team to be able to beat Japan.

Davies on his own has 42 caps. Biggar is meant to be one of the best fly halves on the planet.... Liam Williams is not a new name in Wales.

It's not a bad side.

As for coaches - one of Japan's coaches was Borthwick who had no prior coaching experience who was just basically drafted in.

Are you telling me that the best Welsh coach is Howley and there is no one else?

Firstly Biggar has come on leaps and bounds since that tour, and with the pack he had infront of him he still did ok.

Secondly, Liam Williams was only a international novice at the time, he and Biggar were only about 21yrs old on that tour FFS.

Thirdly, our no.1, no. 2 and no. 3 coaches were not there, niether were half the physios and the other parts of the team you do not get to see anymore.

And lastly, Japan are not the pushovers they once were, they have a fully pro league now with a lot of Polynesians in there international team, if anybody sends a third/fourth choice side out there with a third/fourth choice coaching team they would struggle. Lets not forget, we did not lose the series, we drew it, as we won the first game.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yes lord dowlais I do like to remind you - generally when you talk about how much you rate Biggar. You might say - well it doesn't matter.

Personally I want my higher profile players stepping up - Biggar should have been the Welsh star shining against Japan.

I see enough talent in that team to be able to beat Japan.

Davies on his own has 42 caps. Biggar is meant to be one of the best fly halves on the planet.... Liam Williams is not a new name in Wales.

It's not a bad side.

As for coaches - one of Japan's coaches was Borthwick who had no prior coaching experience who was just basically drafted in.

Are you telling me that the best Welsh coach is Howley and there is no one else?

Firstly Biggar has come on leaps and bounds since that tour, and with the pack he had infront of him he still did ok.

Secondly, Liam Williams was only a international novice at the time, he and Biggar were only about 21yrs old on that tour FFS.

Thirdly, our no.1, no. 2 and no. 3 coaches were not there, niether were half the physios and the other parts of the team you do not get to see anymore.

And lastly, Japan are not the pushovers they once were, they have a fully pro league now with a lot of Polynesians in there international team, if anybody sends a third/fourth choice side out there with a third/fourth choice coaching team they would struggle. Lets not forget, we did not lose the series, we drew it, as we won the first game.

I reckon that Japan side would have lost to the Argentina side which England smashed to pieces mind. Looking at the teamsheet they had Brown, Morgan, Wood, Launchbury who were first team players at the time.

A second choice Wales side should comfortably beat Japan in my view. It was pretty dire.