The HC negotiations look to be going down to the wire.....

First topic message reminder :

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/11/english-french-clubs-heineken-cup-talks

Little or no progress appears to have been made to date despite various deals being offered to the French clubs. Which side of the demands/debate is going to come up with an offer or conceed on individual issues??

I don't particularly like the idea of an Anglo French competition but is it any nearer?

Prepare for a bland media statement tomorrow.......

HammerofThunor wrote:The RFU don't want to ring fence the top level of the English game so it won't happen. Regardless of what the top English clubs want.

could be a breakaway tho - like the premier league. How many clubs in england are controlled by private individuals answerable to no one?

HammerofThunor wrote:MrsP, the ERC was formed by 6 equal unions. The English clubs AND the French clubs want it be a competition of the three leagues. That's what they want and is basically the fundamental issue in the negotiations. That's why the PRO12 unions are mentioned as a collective. Right or not it is a point of negotiation.

But why Thunor?

Why do they want that?

Surely they should want to have the best teams from each union? Is that not the whole point of the thing?

Again, it was the point of the whole thing. The point of the whole thing is up for negotiation.

Why should they want that? Dunno. One of three better than one in six?

TJ and MrsP why should the English and French clubs even contemplate losing one of their spots?

You can't have it both ways. Either we treat you as a separate union so we look at your individual union's performance in the HC or we treat you as a collective - including the kudos of Leinster,Ulster and Munster.

Looking at this season's HC it doesn't seem like the Scottish,Italians and Welsh clubs have a leg to stand on.

2 Scottish,2 Italian and 2 Welsh hug the bottom of their HC pools - between the 6 of them they have 4 points.

The finest performer of the Welsh,Italians and Scottish - the Ospreys have 1 win and have conceded 2 try bonus points to their opposition. A whopping 11 tries conceded.

Good luck shocked, you're fighting a losing battle there. As far as they're concerned Pro12 = all things good and righteous, English (& French sometimes) = panto bad guys, and you aren't going to get anything else through.

I also noted you were pretty much the only person yesterday arguing for a true pan european competition; good on ya.

beshocked,

If those teams you mentioned weren't there who would Sale, Saints and Exeter beat?



Last season three French teams finished bottom of their group with only one English team managing to top theirs.

Why should the English and French continue to drag down the competition?

That was, of course a joke but still.

I'm yet to be convinced that any of the changes the French and English want to see will improve the tournament.

Interesting quote from the Torygraph:

Sources say there was no give in the Pro 12 position, which currently guarantees two places for Scotland and Italy, during the three-hour meeting.

The English and French clubs however pointed out that as they had served the necessary two years’ notice on the current accord back in June, it was not realistic to expect them now to accept the status quo six months on.

I'm afraid, TJ, that this would suggest that the "refusal to negotiate" boot is rather on the other foot.

Depends who the source is. It mght have been someone's mum

Poorfour wrote:Interesting quote from the Torygraph:

Sources say there was no give in the Pro 12 position, which currently guarantees two places for Scotland and Italy, during the three-hour meeting.

The English and French clubs however pointed out that as they had served the necessary two years’ notice on the current accord back in June, it was not realistic to expect them now to accept the status quo six months on.

I'm afraid, TJ, that this would suggest that the "refusal to negotiate" boot is rather on the other foot.

Who's foot are you talking about?

I think he means the non-Anglo-French foot.

The fact that there was a meeting means neither party are refusing to negotiate!

Someone has to foot the bill

MrsP wrote:beshocked,

If those teams you mentioned weren't there who would Sale, Saints and Exeter beat?



Last season three French teams finished bottom of their group with only one English team managing to top theirs.

Why should the English and French continue to drag down the competition?

That was, of course a joke but still.

I'm yet to be convinced that any of the changes the French and English want to see will improve the tournament.

I don't agree with the extreme French and English plans but then again I don't think things should stay as they are.

I am yet to be convinced that certain sides in the HC are good enough to be there. The problem at the moment is no one is willing to make a compromise.

The Pro12 needs qualification. That's pretty clear.

Cutting the Pro12 representatives to 8 with 6 English and 6 French is what I would suggest. It is something that I think everyone could potentially agree upon

beshocked wrote:

MrsP wrote:beshocked,

If those teams you mentioned weren't there who would Sale, Saints and Exeter beat?



Last season three French teams finished bottom of their group with only one English team managing to top theirs.

Why should the English and French continue to drag down the competition?

That was, of course a joke but still.

I'm yet to be convinced that any of the changes the French and English want to see will improve the tournament.

I don't agree with the extreme French and English plans but then again I don't think things should stay as they are.

I am yet to be convinced that certain sides in the HC are good enough to be there. The problem at the moment is no one is willing to make a compromise.

The Pro12 needs qualification. That's pretty clear.

Cutting the Pro12 representatives to 8 with 6 English and 6 French is what I would suggest. It is something that I think everyone could potentially agree upon

The PRL ARE willing to compromise. They took an altered offer to the last meeting. It even included a "massive U-turn" on their original proposal.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Someone has to foot the bill

If you want a competition then everyone has to participate.

HammerofThunor wrote:

beshocked wrote:

MrsP wrote:beshocked,

If those teams you mentioned weren't there who would Sale, Saints and Exeter beat?



Last season three French teams finished bottom of their group with only one English team managing to top theirs.

Why should the English and French continue to drag down the competition?

That was, of course a joke but still.

I'm yet to be convinced that any of the changes the French and English want to see will improve the tournament.

I don't agree with the extreme French and English plans but then again I don't think things should stay as they are.

I am yet to be convinced that certain sides in the HC are good enough to be there. The problem at the moment is no one is willing to make a compromise.

The Pro12 needs qualification. That's pretty clear.

Cutting the Pro12 representatives to 8 with 6 English and 6 French is what I would suggest. It is something that I think everyone could potentially agree upon

The PRL ARE willing to compromise. They took an altered offer to the last meeting. It even included a "massive U-turn" on their original proposal.

I think the quantity of each leagues teams should be regularly up for negotiation based on their European Ranking.

Why should any of the leagues be guaranteed a certain number of participants every season?

I am a massively pro guaranteeing that all the six nations teams are represented in the HEC, other than that I want to see the competition at its strongest. If the fifth and sixth placed team from any league is not up to the level of other leagues then maybe they should be swapped out for stronger teams.

maestegmafia wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Someone has to foot the bill

If you want a competition then everyone has to participate.

Well developments are afoot

Is there anyone here who watches HEC rugby and regularily thinks,

"This Tournament is rubbish!"?

I'm not saying that every single game is earth shatteringly brilliant but then again that sort of competition doesn't exist anywhere. I think we all still love this competition.

I think the changes really are all about money not quality.

Now I understand that it has to be financialy viable but let's not pretend that the driving forces here are anything to do with the quality of the rugby on display.

MrsP wrote:Is there anyone here who watches HEC rugby and regularily thinks,

"This Tournament is rubbish!"?

No, those people already switched it off. Especially the French.

I personnaly believe that quality can only improve if you have less participating clubs. it is logical after all. less games means normally better ones. I for one would scrap one french and english team as well and get down to 18 teams.
this is the separate issue from how you share the revenues by the way.

what is at stake here is the survival of Italian and Scottish pro rugby as pointed by ERC boss JP lux. Irish and top welsh teams will still qualify whatever the rule are.

HC is nice and that's why the french are not threatening to get out of it unlike others. Its still a decent money maker for the big french and english clubs and that's what the rabo12 club is banking on : not negociate nor compromise as they think that eventually the current system should be better than nothing for the franglos.

It will take time but sa new agreement will get signed

Certainly didn't look disinterested in Clermont at the weekend.

what about top 20 from
http://eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

6 English, 8 French, 3 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish

or top 24 teams
7 English, 11 French, 3 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish

Over all it looks to me that the Italians are the ones gaining from all teams being represented, and French losing out. English about right with 6 teams.

Think maybe 6 English, 6 French and 7 pro 12 (each union guarenteed one place) with league with highest co efficient gaining an extra place. Would be fairest and means stongest league gets the Extea place (h-cup winners come out of Unions allocation, if not qualified by league.

Ie Tigers win Hcup but finish 7th in league, tigers + top 5 English teams qualify (Top 6 + Tigers, if Prem has the highest co-efficient)

maestegmafia I am sure you would want that because european rankings are a joke. Look at Edinburgh,Cardiff,Biarritz for example.

MrsP I do think that with matches such as Zebre vs Quins - seriously what's the point? Complete mismatches are just silly.

Do you honestly think the Scottish sides have dished up utter quality in this season's HC?

MrsP wrote:Certainly didn't look disinterested in Clermont at the weekend.

Which is why people would argue for a reduced quality based torunament above a free hugs club.

if you remove zebre from the HC and throw them to the AC, what will happen to them? will they still exist? chances are they wont as you already have semi-pro italian teams playing there.

Just explain again how England deserve 6 guarenteed places and Ireland only 1?

I know where your loyalities lie Kings but how can that be equitible?

Are Ireland only contributing a sixth of the quality that England supply to this tournament?

Whocares
How would you structure an 18 team comp?
Go to a 5 from each league plus one in decending order if not qualified by league position Hec winner Amlin Winner Hec runner up Amlin runner up (then open to suggestions).4 pools of 4 ,top of pool home quater runner up away quater

Or top from each union(6 teams)next top 3 from each league not already qualified(9 teams) then as above for last team

broadlandboy wrote:Whocares
How would you structure an 18 team comp?
Go to a 5 from each league plus one in decending order if not qualified by league position Hec winner Amlin Winner Hec runner up Amlin runner up (then open to suggestions).4 pools of 4 ,top of pool home quater runner up away quater

good question, it would be actually 16! so would scrap another 2 franglos (I believe this is the format that red stag proposed a while ago so not 100% my making)

2 irish
2 welsh
1 scottish
1 italian
4 french
4 english
1 team from the league or union of the AC winner
1 team from the league or union of the HC winner

tha main outcome here is much more competitive AC.

Or if kept at 20 team comp 50% of your top teams qualify plus 1 as above

beshocked wrote:maestegmafia I am sure you would want that because european rankings are a joke. Look at Edinburgh,Cardiff,Biarritz for example.

MrsP I do think that with matches such as Zebre vs Quins - seriously what's the point? Complete mismatches are just silly.

Do you honestly think the Scottish sides have dished up utter quality in this season's HC?

They said that about Aironi v Biarritz, Connacht v Biarritz and Connacht v Quins.

There are fairly regular giant killer games in the HEC.

And this season the Scottish sides have not done well but last season they had a semi finalist.

MrsP wrote:Just explain again how England deserve 6 guarenteed places and Ireland only 1?

I know where your loyalities lie Kings but how can that be equitible?

Are Ireland only contributing a sixth of the quality that England supply to this tournament?

Don't know was just throwing it about.

Personally i'm a fan of the 32 team option.
8 group of 4, top 2 in each play for Cup (top of pool 1 v 2nd in pool 8) bottom 2 in each play for Shield.

That way weither you are a Cup or Shield team isn't decided how you performed against teams from your own union, but rather how you performed against other teams from Europe.

whocares wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Whocares
How would you structure an 18 team comp?
Go to a 5 from each league plus one in decending order if not qualified by league position Hec winner Amlin Winner Hec runner up Amlin runner up (then open to suggestions).4 pools of 4 ,top of pool home quater runner up away quater

good question, it would be actually 16! so would scrap another 2 franglos (I believe this is the format that red stag proposed a while ago so not 100% my making)

2 irish
2 welsh
1 scottish
1 italian
4 french
4 english
1 team from the league or union of the AC winner
1 team from the league or union of the HC winner

tha main outcome here is much more competitive AC.

What happens to the likes of Romania,Russia,Belgium,Germany,Spain, Georgia etc in this situation?

Whocares if you throw Zebre into the Amlin they might actually win some matches which will boost morale. No one wants to see their side getting hammered every game surely? We want to see a contest. One sided matches are pretty boring.

I agree with that Beschoked but my point was not competitivness but development as I dont think Italy can afford to have a pro team in the AC where they have already the other Italian semi pro teams.

beshocked wrote:
What happens to the likes of Romania,Russia,Belgium,Germany,Spain, Georgia etc in this situation?

They stop wasting their time leaking 100 points to the likes of Leeds?

[quote="MrsP"]

beshocked wrote:maestegmafia I am sure you would want that because european rankings are a joke. Look at Edinburgh,Cardiff,Biarritz for example.

MrsP I do think that with matches such as Zebre vs Quins - seriously what's the point? Complete mismatches are just silly.

Do you honestly think the Scottish sides have dished up utter quality in this season's HC?

They said that about Aironi v Biarritz, Connacht v Biarritz and Connacht v Quins.

There are fairly regular giant killer games in the HEC.

And this season the Scottish sides have not done well but last season they had a semi finalist.

[/quote

Biarritz are vulnerable to these upsets because away from home they are horrendous.

Quins result was down to complacency - didn't happen again this season.

Any other upsets that don't involve Biarritz?


Yes last year Scotland had a semifinalist in the easiest group. You Scots love shouting it from the rooftops.

So maybe Biarritz should not be allowed to play in the HEC. Half the games are away from home after all.

And, Asbo will LOVE that last line!

When Treviso beat Tigers this weekend will it be an upset?

Didn't Treviso beat USA Perp a couple of seasons ago?

MrsP wrote:Didn't Treviso beat USA Perp a couple of seasons ago?

Worcester beat Perpignan last week - instant promotion to HC?

whocares wrote:I agree with that Beschoked but my point was not competitivness but development as I dont think Italy can afford to have a pro team in the AC where they have already the other Italian semi pro teams.

It's progress I want to see.

Of the Pro12 clubs I look at them and go who do I think is making progress:

Ospreys - strong in the Pro12 but still flatter to deceive in the HC

Scarlets - actually might be making progress but too early to say

Cardiff - going backwards. Couldn't even beat bottom of the AP side,Sale

Dragons - going backwards, struggling in the Amlin


Treviso - I would say they are making gradual progress. More competitive both in the HC and Pro12.

Zebre - the whipping boys. Early days but perhaps the Amlin beckons.


Glasgow -have done well recently in the Pro12 but seem out of their depth in the HC. Teething problems perhaps?

Edinburgh - poor league form in last two seasons. From heroes to zeroes in HC - now the whipping boys. Does the Amlin beckon?


Ulster - one of the rising stars in Europe in the last 3 seasons

Leinster - still up there with the best

Munster - on the right road to rebuilding their side

Connacht - still the smaller weaker cousin of the other Irish side but capable of an upset or two. Possible signs of improvement. Have they turned a corner this season?

Edinburgh beat Toulouse last season too. And LI and Racing!

England beat NZ, they should join the quad nations.
Wales and Scotland lost to Pisland teams, put them in the Pacific Nations cup.

Done.

And what of the progress in the English and French sides?

MrsP wrote:Edinburgh beat Toulouse last season too. And LI and Racing!

LI failed to qualify for this season's HC and i expect they'll fail to qualify for next, as will Sale. So yes, well done Edinburgh.

I shall oblige you to put the English

Just the sides in the HC because only 6 of them are in it this season.

Quins - one of the sides on a definite upward arrow, one of the main English contenders in the HC.

Saracens - in the last 4 seasons they have gone from mediocre underachievers to a side on the rise. Still not there but getting there.

Saints - look to have gone backwards actually but only in compared to most of the other English sides.

Leicester - Not the force they used to be, lacking a certain something but still a threat to most other sides in the HC.

Exeter - making very good progress, from a championship side to a side in the HC.

Sale - have gone backwards at a rate of knots.

So 3 making progress then?

Not sure what you meant about Saints. Do you mean they are only going backwards compared to other English sides?

Why can't there be 10 rabo teams, with 6 French and 6 English in with a chance of qualifying for the HEC?

What's needed is 2 Irish + 2 Welsh + 1 Scottish and 1 Italian team in the Pro12 who qualify by right. So each of these nations lose one team from their current quota in the HEC. Then there should be two home/away pre-season playoffs between the next four highest non-qualified teams to provide two more qualifiers to the HEC pool stages.

Of course if the P12 nations are losing a guaranteed place, then it is only fair that France and England also lose a place each as well. So the fifth and sixth placed teams in the Aviva would play each other for the final English qualifying spot, and the same for the Top14. This would mean that there would be 8 Rabo + 5 English and 5 French teams. They should make up the final two from the finalists of the Amlin, giving 20 teams in total.

SO every nation concedes one guaranteed position, and all teams that qualify are there on merit. The competition is cut from 24 to 20 but the Amlin is bolstered by having qualification to the following HEC for the finalists. Sky get to cover some play-off games and those clubs involved would draw bigger pre-season gates. Everyone's a winner

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:PRL want to control Euro rugby and there is only one winner in that, the English clubs, everyone else can go whistle.

They say this is meritocratic but if thats the case then why does England get to keep 6 sides and maybe more in the HC. What if England's 6th placed team is much worse than the Rabo's 9th placed? Do we then renegotiate the numbers?

Well, the Aviva 6th placed team just bumhumped the Rabo 2nd place team, away.

No the English and French clubs want a level playing field with each league having the same number of teams and the same share of the money. At the moment one leage gets half the places and more than half the money. Bizarrely this is the league whose audiences provide the least TV revenue.

As far as I can see the English and French have offered to compromise with nothing in return.