Munster vs Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Just starting a thread for discussion of the game at Thomond Park on Saturday night. Will add teams as they are announced.

Scarlets defeat at the hands of the Os has given Ulster some breathing room in 1st place- that fact, combined with the fact that there is an Ireland training camp in Kildare this week past and Ulster have three must win games in January (Scarlets, Glasgow and Castres) means that Ulster are resting a large number of key players.

Ulster XV & replacements to face Munster, RaboDirect PRO12, Thomond Park, Sat 29th December, 5.30pm:
(15-9): A D'Arcy, C Cochrane, M Allen, L Marshall, C Gilroy; N O'Connor, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, A Macklin, L Stevenson, N McComb, R Diack, M McComish, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, R Lutton, T Court, A O'Connor, A Birch, M Heaney, S Olding, R Andrew.

Still, from an Ulster PoV we'll still get to track the progress of some of the exciting young talent we have breaking through like Luke Marshall and Craig Gilroy. It also provides an opportunity for guys on the fringes of the first team like Adam Macklin, Neil McComb, Mike McComish, Michael Allen and Adam D'Arcy a chance to stake their claim for the important games ahead.

Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett capt, C Laulala, J Downey, S Zebo; I Keatley, C Murray; W du Preez, D Varley, BJ Botha; D O'Callaghan, B Holland; P O'Mahony, T O'Donnell, P Butler.

Replacements: M Sherry, M Horan, S Archer, Dave O'Callaghan, J Coughlan, P Stringer, R O'Gara, F Jones.

Good Munster team. Delighted with that- we'll learn a lot about our reserves.

When Annett is making our lineout sing, why on earth do we take the scrum?

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:He has made one or two decent ones, he could win back the jersey as Munster's options aren't great there. He does play a bit scared, not surprising given his injures at such a young age. Doing alright could improve and I expect him to, a long way off Ireland though. Needs to work on a fair few things.



Archer has done alright since coming on surprisingly. Val, Annett has a great throw also seems to have a very good connection with his jumpers their timing is superb, as you say Flannery like.

If he is a bit scared that is a worry.

On Annett see that awful throw from Varley and compare the difference. Annett throw the ball as if though its a dart, in one nice fluid motion. Varley on the other hand lobs the ball with a nice few stutters thrown in.


Bringing Rog on has completely robbed Munster of any momentum they had and stopped them getting the bonus point.

+the Rugby watching/playing population of Ireland

YES! Lovely try.

Think the lads deserve that. We've shown a lot of character and guts in the last 30 minutes to deny Munster the losing bonus point.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing Earls or Zebo at 15 and bringing in LLL or LOD myself as to be it seems that he is not playing even close to 100%, how many games has he had since coming back?

I'd bring in LOD, and play Zebo at full back. Munster's summer recruit was really poor, they should have went out and broke the bank for an excellent 12 to pair with Earls instead they got a poor 12 and an incredibly inconsistent 13, who despite flashes of brilliance make much too many mistakes.

Munster will be ruing not getting the bonus point from this match.

AWESOME TRY

We're lucky ROG came on as well, to be fair. Not a bad showing given the inexperience of the squad.

Yay! Try! Shame about the off-the-ball afters from DOC and others there.

FT 24-10

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing Earls or Zebo at 15 and bringing in LLL or LOD myself as to be it seems that he is not playing even close to 100%, how many games has he had since coming back?

I'd bring in LOD, and play Zebo at full back. Munster's summer recruit was really poor, they should have went out and broke the bank for an excellent 12 to pair with Earls instead they got a poor 12 and an incredibly inconsistent 13, who despite flashes of brilliance make much too many mistakes.

Munster will be ruing not getting the bonus point from this match.

I'd disagree with that re: Earls being a 13 which changes everything I guess relating to signings

I can't actually think of a match in which Rog has not shown us more clear evidence that he is past it. And at the same time, Keatley has taken every opportunity given to him to show that he is the better player, and that he should be given the jersey.

It is really depressing from an Irish pov, that come the Six Nations Rog will sat on the bench.

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:He has made one or two decent ones, he could win back the jersey as Munster's options aren't great there. He does play a bit scared, not surprising given his injures at such a young age. Doing alright could improve and I expect him to, a long way off Ireland though. Needs to work on a fair few things.



Archer has done alright since coming on surprisingly. Val, Annett has a great throw also seems to have a very good connection with his jumpers their timing is superb, as you say Flannery like.

If he is a bit scared that is a worry.

On Annett see that awful throw from Varley and compare the difference. Annett throw the ball as if though its a dart, in one nice fluid motion. Varley on the other hand lobs the ball with a nice few stutters thrown in.


Bringing Rog on has completely robbed Munster of any momentum they had and stopped them getting the bonus point.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that, play hooker myself, Annett is a very bright prospect seems to be decent in the loose, makes his throw look effortless and as I said the timing, that's the biggest thing in the lineout. A hooker will get the blame a lot of the time even if the lift is late, he gets it spot on with his jumpers not many young guys like that get it so quickly.



Ulster get the try they deserved, brilliant hands impressed with their attitude and performance bar the 20 minute period either side of the half. A lot of talented youngsters I wasn't too aware of Olding looked alright I thought, Birch was super too. Disappointing we didn't get the bonus, Ulster deserve a lot of credit for their resilience and upping their performance and taking the game to Munster for the majority of it. ROG coming on disrupted our backplay which seemed to be getting its stuff together a bit.

Birch will have earned himself a lot more gametime, expecially with Doyle still out. Heaney, Olding and Annett all looked better than the players they replaced.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing Earls or Zebo at 15 and bringing in LLL or LOD myself as to be it seems that he is not playing even close to 100%, how many games has he had since coming back?

I'd bring in LOD, and play Zebo at full back. Munster's summer recruit was really poor, they should have went out and broke the bank for an excellent 12 to pair with Earls instead they got a poor 12 and an incredibly inconsistent 13, who despite flashes of brilliance make much too many mistakes.

Munster will be ruing not getting the bonus point from this match.

I'd disagree with that re: Earls being a 13 which changes everything I guess relating to signings

There is no doubt that Earls is a capable 13 at HEC level, he has played excellently there for the last few seasons, I really don't know what he will have to do to convince you.

Donal Lenihan praising having some forwards in the tram lines

Pete slams head against table repeatedly

So happy for Birchy getting the try and playing well he is a good wee player and deserves it for the work he has put in over the last few seasons.

Good to see Annett, Heaney, Birch and Olding showing up well off the bench. Another solid game from McComb and Diack. There are guys putting their hands up for more opportunities for sure. Allen and Marshall were great in the centres.

Unfortunately there's also guys like O'Connor and Macklin who aren't cutting it and we will probably need to sign a new Irish tighthead. Furlong? Hagan?

Most disappointing was Paul Marshall who went back to his old ways. He needs a cooler head than that at this stage of his career. We lost by 14 points and his sin binning cost us about 14 points.

There were a few times we got exposed in defence but by and large we suffocated their backline and we looked well drilled and hungry. We'll grow from this. I hate losing to Munster, but Munster don't have too much to be happy about either given the teams named. It's a great learning experience for this young team.

Hook: "The best thing to do is for Munster to put O'Gara at 10 and Munster should go back to playing rugby they understand"

Pete tries to drown himself in pint of water

Munster were made look very average by this Ulster side that is a cause of concern for us, great for Ulster. Our backline wasn't great in the first half and when it showed signs of getting it together, the rug was pulled underneath them with the introduction of ROG.


Lot of youngsters mentioned already for Ulster I thought did well. Annett is a great hooker prospect. Birch looked good off the bench, Luke Marshall had one poor tackle but other than that was great, Paddy Wallace should be getting nervous.


Not a lot of positives for Munster.

Good to see Anscombes interview on the BBC there praising the young guys, encouraging them.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Hook: "The best thing to do is for Munster to put O'Gara at 10 and Munster should go back to playing rugby they understand"

Pete tries to drown himself in pint of water

Olding and Heaney looked really good when they came on, a much better half back pairing than O'Connor and Marshall I have to say.....

Heaney's little reverse inside pass to Diack for Birch's try was pure class.

Annett did very well as well. I thought Marshall's yellow card was very very soft, he barely touched O'Callaghan and thats when we conceded 14 points.

I honestly think that our first 15 as opposed to effectively having the Ravens, would of toasted this Munster side.

Notch wrote:Good to see Annett, Heaney, Birch and Olding showing up well off the bench. Another solid game from McComb and Diack. There are guys putting their hands up for more opportunities for sure. Allen and Marshall were great in the centres.

Unfortunately there's also guys like O'Connor and Macklin who aren't cutting it and we will probably need to sign a new Irish tighthead. Furlong? Hagan?

Most disappointing was Paul Marshall who went back to his old ways. He needs a cooler head than that at this stage of his career. We lost by 14 points and his sin binning cost us about 14 points.

There were a few times we got exposed in defence but by and large we suffocated their backline and we looked well drilled and hungry. We'll grow from this. I hate losing to Munster, but Munster don't have too much to be happy about either given the teams named. It's a great learning experience for this young team.

There is not a chance we will get Furlong. I would imagine that Hagan would go back to Connacht before coming to us. I would say the best IQ we could aim for from one of the other provinces would be Moore, or try and get Andress back, although if rumours are to be believed he has burnt a lot of bridges at home.


On Marshall, I just don't think he is that good, he is a decent backup but I would be seriously concerned if we had to start a HEC game with him a 9.


Pete; Hook isn't wrong, ROG's introduction certainly turned the game, unfortunately for Munster it was in Ulster's favour.

Yeah, thats it Dodger. On one hand it's encouraging that so many 2nd/3rd choice lads put their hands up. On the other hand, thats our unbeaten run gone but it's not gone to a great team!

Munster deserved to win that game for sure, but its galling that they didn't have to play well to do it. Hopefully we get to take our frustration out on the Scarlets.

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Hook: "The best thing to do is for Munster to put O'Gara at 10 and Munster should go back to playing rugby they understand"

Pete tries to drown himself in pint of water

Hook: "Kick it up in the air and let God sort out the rest"

Pete puts his fingers in the plug socket

Ulster's try is so be-a-utiful

I think from the ref's point of view the stamp was a penalty and I think it's one of those where you have to go if it's a penalty. No backwards motion so it was apenalty.



More positives for Ulster than Munster really which is annoying. Hold your heads up high. Your 2nd/3rd choice side took it to Munster for 50/60 minutes, and that Munster team is strong. A concern for Munster!

Thomond wrote:I think from the ref's point of view the stamp was a penalty and I think it's one of those where you have to go if it's a penalty. No backwards motion so it was apenalty.



More positives for Ulster than Munster really which is annoying. Hold your heads up high. Your 2nd/3rd choice side took it to Munster for 50/60 minutes, and that Munster team is strong. A concern for Munster!

The thing is you have the guts of a strong team in there, I'm not sure if Penney is being hamstrung by politics but there is a good team that will click soon. You're obviously not being helped by injuries to your best forward, and that your best back has missed a lot of the season as well.

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:I think from the ref's point of view the stamp was a penalty and I think it's one of those where you have to go if it's a penalty. No backwards motion so it was apenalty.



More positives for Ulster than Munster really which is annoying. Hold your heads up high. Your 2nd/3rd choice side took it to Munster for 50/60 minutes, and that Munster team is strong. A concern for Munster!

The thing is you have the guts of a strong team in there, I'm not sure if Penney is being hamstrung by politics but there is a good team that will click soon. You're obviously not being helped by injuries to your best forward, and that your best back has missed a lot of the season as well.

Agree with all that the pair of you have said. Val who is their best back?

From an Ireland perspective as opposed to an Ulster perspective, Luke Marshall is just after outplaying D'Arcy and Downey in successive weeks. I see no reason he won't start our next two Heineken Cup games and if he does well in them he could very easily get his first cap in the Six Nations.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:I think from the ref's point of view the stamp was a penalty and I think it's one of those where you have to go if it's a penalty. No backwards motion so it was apenalty.



More positives for Ulster than Munster really which is annoying. Hold your heads up high. Your 2nd/3rd choice side took it to Munster for 50/60 minutes, and that Munster team is strong. A concern for Munster!

The thing is you have the guts of a strong team in there, I'm not sure if Penney is being hamstrung by politics but there is a good team that will click soon. You're obviously not being helped by injuries to your best forward, and that your best back has missed a lot of the season as well.

Agree with all that the pair of you have said. Val who is their best back?

You know who I am going to say, so what bother asking? Earls.


Edit; Also as someone who is abroad, and doesn't have to endure Hook, is he seriously saying that Munster's problems would be solved by playing Rog?

We have some very good players Val alright, I believe Penney is being stifled by politics, ROG holds a massive sway over every facet of Irish rugby, it's quite amazing, we need Keatley in at 10, probably as a stop gap for JJ or give him game time at 12 as well. People can succeed at 2 positions the Irish track record of it is poor but it can be done.


Best back? I would guess Val is saying Earls is who Val is going for but based on play it would have to be Zebo. For importance it would have to be Earls assuming he plays in the centre, but Zebo has been incredible this year. Deserving of a spot in the Irish side in my view, I may be biased though.

Notch wrote:From an Ireland perspective as opposed to an Ulster perspective, Luke Marshall is just after outplaying D'Arcy and Downey in successive weeks. I see no reason he won't start our next two Heineken Cup games and if he does well in them he could very easily get his first cap in the Six Nations.

+1 He was very good tonight. Hopefully he can get a run of games.

Notch wrote:From an Ireland perspective as opposed to an Ulster perspective, Luke Marshall is just after outplaying D'Arcy and Downey in successive weeks. I see no reason he won't start our next two Heineken Cup games and if he does well in them he could very easily get his first cap in the Six Nations.

In your dreams. Downey isn't in international contention anyway, its clear that Kidney doesn't rate him. It will some combination of Darcy, Bod and Earls in the centre, with Sexton as first choice back up.

A positive for Munster Archer did great against Court, bested him I would have said. Leinster on now, that's more important!

I wouldn't say Earls is better than Howlett or Zebo.

Yes Val, they were direct quotes I posted.

Agree with Notch on Marshall

Thomond wrote:We have some very good players Val alright, I believe Penney is being stifled by politics, ROG holds a massive sway over every facet of Irish rugby, it's quite amazing, we need Keatley in at 10, probably as a stop gap for JJ or give him game time at 12 as well. People can succeed at 2 positions the Irish track record of it is poor but it can be done.


Best back? I would guess Val is saying Earls is who Val is going for but based on play it would have to be Zebo. For importance it would have to be Earls assuming he plays in the centre, but Zebo has been incredible this year. Deserving of a spot in the Irish side in my view, I may be biased though.

The fact that he was asked for his opinion on who should replace McGahan is worrying, as it gives him massive sway over the new coach. If Munster decided to back Keatley for the rest of the season as 10 I think they would be a much better position. If they then wanted to slowly introduce JJ at 12 then that would be real progress. This time next year if you could be playing a backline of Murray Keatley JJ Earls Zebo Jones LOD that would be real progress, and completely IQ as well.

I agree that at the moment Zebo is your best back currently playing but Earls has been excellent in the few games he has played for Munster this season. LLL might make the big defensive hits and the occasional flicks but Earls has been pretty flawless in defence and doesn't throw the 40/60 ball away losing possession like LLL does far too often.

Thomond wrote:A positive for Munster Archer did great against Court, bested him I would have said. Leinster on now, that's more important!

I thought the opposite I have to say, BJ Botha got the better of Callum Black in the scrum in the first half ultimately leading to a penalty try. When Court came on the Ulster scrum started to win penalties, including two in the last 5 minutes, which resulted in Heaney's quick tap leading to the Ulster try.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Thomond wrote:A positive for Munster Archer did great against Court, bested him I would have said. Leinster on now, that's more important!

I thought the opposite I have to say, BJ Botha got the better of Callum Black in the scrum in the first half ultimately leading to a penalty try. When Court came on the Ulster scrum started to win penalties, including two in the last 5 minutes, which resulted in Heaney's quick tap leading to the Ulster try.

I'm pretty sure the pens were against Horan.

For Munster I was impressed by O'Donnell, Murray and Keatley. I was unimpressed by Varley and Hurley and O'Gara is beginning to be an obstacle to Munsters development.

For Ulster, it's time to bring the big guns back well rested- go like this for the Scarlets game.

Court, Best, Afoa, Stevenson, Henderson, Diack, Henry, Williams, Pienaar, Jackson, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Payne

Brady, Black, Lutton, McComb, Birch, Heaney, Wallace, D'Arcy

The trouble is I'm trying to find a place for Michael Allen and Roger Wilson after that game...

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wouldn't say Earls is better than Howlett or Zebo.

Yes Val, they were direct quotes I posted.

Agree with Notch on Marshall

Pete why ask the question when you know the answer and just want to disagree with it. I have explained numerous times why I think Earls is the better player, you have disagreed. I have showed you stats and clips of play before which have proved your statements wrong and you still disagree with me on the issue, so there is no real point continuing the discussion on this. We'll just leave it like the Nacewa v Kearney discussions we had before.

Notch wrote:For Munster I was impressed by O'Donnell, Murray and Keatley. I was unimpressed by Varley and Hurley and O'Gara is beginning to be an obstacle to Munsters development.

For Ulster, it's time to bring the big guns back well rested- go like this for the Scarlets game.

Court, Best, Afoa, Stevenson, Henderson, Diack, Henry, Williams, Pienaar, Jackson, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Payne

Brady, Black, Lutton, McComb, Birch, Heaney, Wallace, D'Arcy

I think the bolded word is superfluous.


I would be happy enough with that team for the Scarlets, wouldn't be surprised if a few are given another bit of rest though. Pienaar has played an awful lot of rugby in the last year.

for anyone watching Leinster Connacht
https://www.606v2.com/t38824-leinster-vs-connacht#1756593

valjester wrote:

Notch wrote:For Munster I was impressed by O'Donnell, Murray and Keatley. I was unimpressed by Varley and Hurley and O'Gara is beginning to be an obstacle to Munsters development.

For Ulster, it's time to bring the big guns back well rested- go like this for the Scarlets game.

Court, Best, Afoa, Stevenson, Henderson, Diack, Henry, Williams, Pienaar, Jackson, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Payne

Brady, Black, Lutton, McComb, Birch, Heaney, Wallace, D'Arcy

I think the bolded word is superfluous.


I would be happy enough with that team for the Scarlets, wouldn't be surprised if a few are given another bit of rest though. Pienaar has played an awful lot of rugby in the last year.

He was beginning to be an obstacle 2 years ago, he has been an obstacle for about 18 months. You're being a bit too kind!

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wouldn't say Earls is better than Howlett or Zebo.

Yes Val, they were direct quotes I posted.

Agree with Notch on Marshall

Pete why ask the question when you know the answer and just want to disagree with it. I have explained numerous times why I think Earls is the better player, you have disagreed. I have showed you stats and clips of play before which have proved your statements wrong and you still disagree with me on the issue, so there is no real point continuing the discussion on this. We'll just leave it like the Nacewa v Kearney discussions we had before.

Apologies Val, wasn't doing that what so ever. I know you think Earls is a great centre and I don't, disagreeing on that is grand and I think the pair of us have been pretty open in listening to each other's views.

I had no idea you thought Earls was Munster's best back! 0 clue what so ever.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wouldn't say Earls is better than Howlett or Zebo.

Yes Val, they were direct quotes I posted.

Agree with Notch on Marshall

Pete why ask the question when you know the answer and just want to disagree with it. I have explained numerous times why I think Earls is the better player, you have disagreed. I have showed you stats and clips of play before which have proved your statements wrong and you still disagree with me on the issue, so there is no real point continuing the discussion on this. We'll just leave it like the Nacewa v Kearney discussions we had before.

Apologies Val, wasn't doing that what so ever. I know you think Earls is a great centre and I don't, disagreeing on that is grand and I think the pair of us have been pretty open in listening to each other's views.

I had no idea you thought Earls was Munster's best back! 0 clue what so ever.

I've said it plenty of times before. I don't think Earls is a great centre, BOD, Smith, Fourie are great centres. Earls is more than capable of playing centre for Munster and has been superior to any other option Munster have had there for the last few years. He gets a much harder time of it on the web than many of his peers, imo.

Well I haven't read it so wasn't to know.

Don't know about anyone else but I think Heaney any Olding did themselves justice with their performances. Like Anscombe said a lot of our youngsters put their hands up tonight , and it's good to see we are starting to have REAL depth in our squad. Good performances by Diack, Stevenson, Wilson and McComb. Let's see how we get on next week!

Congratulations Munster, better all over the park today and well deserved winners.

Disappointed with the result, even with the depleted team we could have got something from this but hey ho its all money in the bank for the young fellows.

A mention for Luke Marshall who was superlative and Heaney who was a big improvement on a fairly poor Paul Marshall from the bench.

Happy new year all

rodders wrote:Congratulations Munster, better all over the park today and well deserved winners.

Disappointed with the result, even with the depleted team we could have got something from this but hey ho its all money in the bank for the young fellows.

A mention for Luke Marshall who was superlative and Heaney who was a big improvement on a fairly poor Paul Marshall from the bench.

Happy new year all

Happy new year rodders

Earlier in the season Heaney looked worse than Marshall - the common denominator was a certain Niall O'Connor as a partner. When PM plays with NOC he tries to do more than he is capable of. At the end of the game Heaney did a nice touch to set up the consolation try, but in truth he should have kicked the penalty out to end the game. It was really a stupid percentage play that could just as easily have conceded the TBP.

Macklin is just back from injury with no gametime for his first start this season against a Test LH. I'd still have him over Archer, Hagan and Andress as a better prospect - with as much experience as they've all had.

I was surprised TOD got the MOTM award. He should have been binned at a crucial time in the game for going into a ruck from an offside position, but unsurprisingly Rolland missed it. Thought POM and Butler were at least his equal.

Loving the comments above that there aren't many positives for Munster.

Do you mean, other than beating the previously unbeaten league leaders?

The Ulster Ravens arent the unbeaten league leaders though are they George?