Nadal out of Australian Open with stomach virus

by harrpau7 Fri 28 Dec 2012, 3:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just seen it on BBC Sport.

Shame, but something doesn't seem right with Nadal's absence.

by LuvSports! Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:18 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course there are posters out there who don't like Murray, Djokovic, Federer etc etc but they aren't on here wishing them to have a career-ending injury. Heck football supporters are known to be obnoxious but even they dont stoop to low depths like that about opposing teams players.

have you not seen the actions of so many fans (chants etc) they deffo stoop to those low depths, even players do things like that (e.g. roy keane's tackle ending haland's career)

by CaledonianCraig Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:21 pm

Of course it is only a forum and things are often said about tennis players (some good and some bad and others downright spiteful) but you crossed the boundary wishing a player had an injury that would end his career. If you can't see that as being unacceptable then you have more problems than I thought.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:21 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Spot on Hn. That is not the remark I'd expect to come from any tennis fan.... if you dont like him as a player but it crosses the boundary of acceptability to wish a career ending injury on him.

Yes I suppose you're right CC.
Clearly SR has no morals/ or is extremely extremely stupid.
Given this guy comes on every few months, and just repeats the same thing again and again like a puppet (that he wants a career ending injury for Nadal), I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say it's the latter (which leads to the former).
I was talking to some people on the football forum a while back, and they all informed me that SR was a ignorant WUM- but I think his case is slightly worse than that.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:22 pm

LuvSports! wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course there are posters out there who don't like Murray, Djokovic, Federer etc etc but they aren't on here wishing them to have a career-ending injury. Heck football supporters are known to be obnoxious but even they dont stoop to low depths like that about opposing teams players.

have you not seen the actions of so many fans (chants etc) they deffo stoop to those low depths, even players do things like that (e.g. roy keane's tackle ending haland's career)

Yes, good point, some football fans who generally aren't very intelligent do go to those depths.

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:24 pm

Listen, for heavens sake, you are all taking a throw-away statement far too seriously, professionally faux-fended I would say, almost as if you are looking to be offended by something.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:25 pm

LuvSports! wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course there are posters out there who don't like Murray, Djokovic, Federer etc etc but they aren't on here wishing them to have a career-ending injury. Heck football supporters are known to be obnoxious but even they dont stoop to low depths like that about opposing teams players.

have you not seen the actions of so many fans (chants etc) they deffo stoop to those low depths, even players do things like that (e.g. roy keane's tackle ending haland's career)

Well I cannot comment on those as I haven't seen them. However, I frequent a football forum for Scotland fans and even they don't wish such injuries on England internationals despite the strong rivalry.

by Haddie-nuff Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:26 pm

I dont give a toss if you hate his guts that is not the issue
THIS IS THE ISSUE.-

"I'll be delighted if his knee is shot permanently and we don't have to see the worst celebration in sport ever again..
.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:26 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course there are posters out there who don't like Murray, Djokovic, Federer etc etc but they aren't on here wishing them to have a career-ending injury. Heck football supporters are known to be obnoxious but even they dont stoop to low depths like that about opposing teams players.

have you not seen the actions of so many fans (chants etc) they deffo stoop to those low depths, even players do things like that (e.g. roy keane's tackle ending haland's career)
Well I cannot comment on those as I haven't seen them. However, I frequent a football forum for Scotland fans and even they don't wish such injuries on England internationals despite the strong rivalry.

Well that's because they have at-least some level of morals/intelligence.

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:28 pm

That's not WISHING an injury on him though, just that I wouldn't miss him should his injury be permanent.

Seriously, talk about protective about someone you don't even know.

by Haddie-nuff Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:31 pm

And seriously, talk about such hatred for someone you dont even know.-
Pot kettle kettle pot... what is it if its not wishing injury your statement can only be taken one way... and thats what your doing.. so go steal some kiddies lollipop' it might make you feel better picard

.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:31 pm

super_realist wrote:That's not WISHING an injury on him though

Are you incredibly stupid?
In which way is this not wishing that he is injured:

I'll be delighted if his knee is shot permanently and we don't have to see the worst celebration in sport ever again.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:32 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:so go steal some kiddies lollipop' it might make you feel better .

I wouldn't want this guy near any kids HN

by CaledonianCraig Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:34 pm

Wriggle all you want but your personal wish is clear. That one of the most successful tennis players of all-time has an injury that ends his career in terms of winning tournaments. Pretty sick if you ask me.

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:34 pm

Well, lets see, he already has a pre-existing knee injury which has kept him out of the game since before the Olympics, so, should it be permanent, I won't care.

It isn't wishing it upon him when the injury already exists, merely that I won't be fussed if it doesn't clear up.
Anyway, it's not as if I can affect his injury, or you can clear it up by positive thought, so stop getting your girdle in a twist.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:36 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Pretty sick if you ask me.

by Haddie-nuff Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:36 pm

Most unconvincing excuse Ive ever hea :go take a Run

You protest too much me thinks

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:41 pm

Me protest too much? I'm not the one with ambitions to edit the Guardian on the minutiae of interpretation, which you still aren't getting by the way.

You've got too much time on your hands if you are getting this upset about such a statement. You'll have a heart attack if you don't watch out (which I hope you recover from by the way)

by Haddie-nuff Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:44 pm

What a hypocrit Rolling Eyes

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:47 pm

You'll never edit The Guardian with spelling like that HN Laugh

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:47 pm

Anyway, where were we before this loony-bin came on?
Ah yes, LuvSports had made a good point:

LuvSports! wrote:Number of things i want to point out there imbl.

you can flush epo out much quicker than that with the help of saline masking it. Armstrong i believe was the first to do so, i mean if it took that long he would have been caught. Also through microdoses many dopers can beat the system with having levels just under the 50 mark (E.g. USPT).
Also you can't completely flush out EPO as it is naturally produced by the kidney and liver.

rujano said he had mono but that his been called into question after he pulled out of the giro.

Good research about EPO, if it takes even less than 24 hours to get out of the system, then testing might be ineffective.
As for Rujano, perhaps he had mono due to EPO usage? For a cyclist that would mean you would have to pull out of the event, so it makes sense.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:54 pm

Ah yes, then before that Bogbrush was annoyed with me because he thought my case suspecting Federer as a possibilty was so poor it was highly insulting to Barrystar.
Well, firstly apologies to BarryStar if this was the case

Good news is, I've done a bit more research, and of course I haven't got anything concrete (but not has anyone), but hopefully this effort won't be considered insulting:

1. From THASP, I found out the figures for the amount of times EPO testing done between 2008 and 2009.
It was confirmed by the ITF that EPO tests were triggered only if blood screening indicated a player may be using the drug.
And, alarmingly, it was Roger Federer who had been tested the most times in the data, having been tested four times.
Of course none of the players listed were found to violate the code, and this is unsurprising considering it only takes 24-72 hours to flush EPO out of the system, to get caught for EPO use would mean you would have to be very foolish, as well as a doper.
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/epo-testing-revisited-wrap-up-part-four.html?m=1

2. Roger Federer had mononucleosis in 2008.
EPO and Mononucleosis:
Mononucleosis is possibly a side effect of long term EPO usage, as explained in this article:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Mononucleosis-and-EPO---Is-There-a-Connection?&id=1063041

Funnily enough in cycling when EPO usage was rife, the number of cyclists with mono also increased with Millar, Rasmussen, Ullrich, Rodgers, Rjuano, Reus and Taaramae just some of the names.
Roger Federer suffered from mononucleosis in 2008.
THASP on mono: http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/on-mononucleosis.html?m=1

3. http://touch.dailymotion.com/#/video/xk9eyv_roger-federer-and-rafael-nadal-laughing-long-version_sport
Federer sweats more in this encounter than I have seen him sweat in any tennis match. This is a 14 min while sitting down, while tennis is a active sport played for hours...
A bit weird, no?

4. Both his parents have worked in the pharmaceutical industry. His parents would have contacts. Easy accessibility to new products.

5. Incredible stamina- Something that is often overlooked. Rome 2006 and Wimbledon 2009. In Wimby 2007 Nadal became very tired much before Fed did (and Nadal has good stamina).

6. Federer trains at high altitude- shows the intention to increase red blood cell count. With this intention, he could also look to EPO to create a bigger increase on this front. Points number 1 and 2 expand more.

7. Late resurgence in career, at an age where is fellow peers of similar age are losing it. Roddick is similar age, he's not been near his highest level for a few years now and had to retire this year. Federer meanwhile is resurgent, winning Wimbledon this year.

8. Won Australian Open in 2010... The same year of the HGH scandal. Maybe Odesnik was not the only one bringing PEDs to the Australia. Other less important players may have and supplied it to Federer.

9. His right arm is much stronger than his left arm, look at the video provided in point number 3 to see this. Similar issues for Nadal, but other way around. This indicates possible doping, for both Nadal and Federer.

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 2:57 pm

You would think that in a sport like tennis, where the players are some of the fittest people in all sport and where the top four are so far ahead of everyone else that drug testing would take place at every tournament.
Amazing that it is seldom done. It can't be a cost issue.

by djlovesyou Tue 01 Jan 2013, 3:01 pm

There isn't any scientific research anywhere that shows that mononucleosis is something that can come about from using EPO.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Mononucleosis-and-EPO---Is-There-a-Connection?&id=1063041

This individual quotes from a paper which states that EPO and mono are causes or factors in a symptom called 'red blood cell aplasia'. He wrongly goes on to state that what the paper is saying is that there is a link between EPO and mono.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 3:36 pm

DJ, if you read the paper I think Cruz is right in saying there is a connection.
This is another article.
http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/epo.html

WADA has confirmed EPO can cause autoimmune diseases.
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/q-and-a/blood-doping/

Epstein Barr and Autoimmune Disease Link to Viruses and Chronic Fatigue (mononucleosis).
http://dominiccrock.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/chronic-fatigue-epstein-barr-virus-and-infectious-mononucleosis-chronic-lyme-disease-co-infection/
http://www.healthdictionary.info/EPR.htm

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 3:39 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epstein–Barr_virus
Linked with Auto-immune diseases.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 3:47 pm

More on that:
From THASP: http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/on-mononucleosis.html?m=1

On Mononucleosis
Time to tackle the mono question. Here's an article from the tennis press bemoaning the "problem" of mononucleosis in tennis. Here's another article about tennis and mono/glandular fever. Both fail to make any comparisons with other sports. So, I decided to do their work for them. Here's what 20 minutes on Google can get you regarding cyclists and glandular fever:

1. David Millar: 2002 mononucleosis. Fyi: Busted in 2004 for doping, admits using EPO in 2001 and 2003.

2. Michael Rasmussen: 2010 "glandular fever". Fyi: Suspended for missing doping tests in 2007. Investigated by Italian authorities in 2011.

3. Damiano Cunego: 2005 "glandular fever". Fyi: Questioned in 2011 by Italian authorities as part of a doping investigation, including EPO.

4. Bart Wellens: 2009 "glandular fever". Fyi: Investigated for doping in 2006, cleared in 2009; investigated again in 2012; and apparently cleared again.

5. Michael Rogers: 2007 & 2011

6. Philip Deignan: 2006

7. Glenn O'Shea: 2010

8. Dani King: 2010

9. Thorwald Veneberg: 2006

10. Jonathan Tiernan-Locke: 2005

11. Allan Davis: 2011

12. Cameron Wurf: 2009

Well, there it is. Oh, and there's also research showing that Epstein–Barr virus is present in higher levels in athletes. There's another study here. And here's a piece about infectious disease in athletes that states "Exercise improves immunity at moderate intensity but impairs immune function at extremes of duration and intensity." There's a similar article here.

If only the tennis media could put just a little effort into research...oh yeah...nevermind. After all, these are the same people who claim tennis anti-doping efforts are among the most stringent in sports.

by djlovesyou Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:05 pm

Again - nothing which shows a link between EPO and mono.

Plenty that shows the link between the Epstein-Barr virus and mono - this is already common medical knowledge.

Mono is prevalent in sportspeople because the high intensity of the training, and the supression of the immune system over a long period of time. The harder you train, the more likely you are to get ill - it's always a fine line.

Nothing you have written so far has indicated that there is the slightest connection between EPO use and glandular fever.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:16 pm

Yes, you made a good point there, this is a quote from 'The Australian':

"The issues are that with the high-intensity training and performance tennis players have, there is a high risk of picking up infectious disease," Wood said.
"Their immune system is exposed by the demanding levels of physical work and stress.
"If you couple that with jet lag and the travel involved each week from tournament to tournament, they are more prone to infection than the normal population."

However I still think THASP may have a case here. There was a big increase in the number of cyclists with mono, when EPO usage was rife.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:22 pm

DJ, my point earlier was on autoimmune diseases being linked to EBV.
And as I showed on the WADA website, EPO usage has autoimmune diseases listed as a side effect.
Nothing is 100% sure though, nothing really seems concrete.

by djlovesyou Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:26 pm

Any stats for this big increase?

Do you know how many cyclists had mono through the 60s and 70s for example?

Surely the ease of reporting this information increased at around the time of the EPO era due to the rise of the internet.

So WADA says that EPO may cause auto-immune disorders (without citation) and auto-immune disorders are linked to mono. Seems a bit too tenuous for me.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:36 pm

LuvSports, I know you follow cycling, can you research if there were many cases of mono in the 60s and 70s?
I know right now in the past decade there have been many cases of cyclists having mono, but perhaps there always was?

DJloves you, my link for that was from WADA: http://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/q-and-a/blood-doping/

I doubt they would lie.

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:46 pm

I would doubt that cases of mono, if it had even been identified would have been recorded in the 60's and 70's as such.

Doping in sport probably hasn't been around long enough to determine the long term effects, especially as methods, drugs, masking agents are constantly evolving and undergoing development.

There are cheats in every sport. It would be naive to think there weren't in Tennis.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:50 pm

super_realist wrote:
Doping in sport probably hasn't been around long enough to determine the long term effects, especially as methods, drugs, masking agents are constantly evolving and undergoing development,

Yes good point.
However we have seen a very large number of cases of mononucleosis in both cycling and tennis (including in cycling many mono sufferers later being found to be on EPO), and I thought it might be a bit suspicious.

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:59 pm

I agree, it is certainly reasonable to entertain that there could well be a link between drug use and immune related illnesses. As far as I know none of us are Doctors who specialise in this subject so we can't say for certain.

I do find it strange though that testing in Tennis is so rare, mind you, some of the physiques you see on a Rugby pitch these days are more than a little suspicious too.

by djlovesyou Tue 01 Jan 2013, 5:38 pm

The problem is that you're falling into the same trap as Cruz did.

You're seeing auto-immune disorders being mentioned in the WADA stuff about EPO, and then also seeing auto-immune disorders mentioned in an article that contains stuff about Epstein-Barr and mono.

Therefore you're just jumping to a conclusion that EPO and mono must be somehow linked because auto-immune disorders are mentioned in both pieces.

This is what I meant when I said it was tenuous. I'm not saying WADA is lying.

by Guest Tue 01 Jan 2013, 5:55 pm

Even if they are linked, that does not mean everyone who takes drugs gets mono, nor does it mean that everyone with mono has taken drugs. It's an interesting speculative point, but doesn't hold up too well, specially if the link between the 2 is a bit dodgy.
Super-realist, your opinion is respected but being happy with serious injury to someone you dislike is extremely nasty, and in fact insulting... to then start being aggressive to another poster who was clearly irked by your unacceptable post is even worse. May I suggest you apologies to her without asking her to "calm down dear"

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:02 pm

Falzy, I won't apologise to anyone if you don't mind. She could quite easily have ignored it if she wanted, as she did, she saw what she wanted to see rather than what I actually said, so no, I shan't apologise for someone's preposterous over-reaction to a flippant comment on a bloody forum.

by Guest Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:06 pm

Fair enough... well take it to the admins

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:10 pm

Fine, I think that's a childish response though considering it was merely a difference of opinion and if you really think I've been insulting, then that also means she has been, so feel free to report her too. Ok!

by Guest Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:12 pm

In any case does anyone know when the draw gets held for the AO?

by djlovesyou Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:14 pm

Holy over-reaction batman.

That's the problem with some Nadal fans. They seem to treat him like he's a family member/boyfriend or something, so anything negative about him (from hoping he never plays again, to wanting him to lose, or even liking another player more) is always taken personally.

It's a bit weird if you ask me, but it's a good job Tiger Woods fans aren't the same.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:17 pm

Any Nadal fans in particular?

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:20 pm

I think DJ is talking about Falzy who demanded I apologise to Haddie, and when I told him I wouldn't be doing that because I hadn't broken any forum rules he reported me to the Admins.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:31 pm

SR, you wrote a post which was distasteful at best, implying that you wished Nadal received an injury so that it ended his career.
Caledonian Craig pointed out that even at football grounds fans wouldn't stoop so 'low' as you just did there, even the most hardcore hooligan football fans would think twice before wishing something like that on another human being.
So not surprising that some people were appalled, and considering the mental state HN is in with her husband, I totally understand her aghast reactions.

People make crude generalisations against Nadal fans, but the truth is they respond angrily only after either prolonged player bashing, or something that wishes illness/injury/ death on him.
Federer fans are a bit different, they vary. Some do not mind whatever criticism comes their way, while others get furious if we don't constantly praise him. Once Lydian hinted that Federer may har benefitted due to Nadals injury, and one Federer fan went crazy and responded with a 700 word rant.

by Guest Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:32 pm

you haven't been reported realist... i requested to speak to someone about it. Youre not necessarily in trouble, but me and a few others felt you were out of order, yours and dj's opinions can differ if you wish.
Itll likely just be left there

by summerblues Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:33 pm

djlovesyou wrote:They seem to treat him like he's a family member/boyfriend or something, so anything negative about him is always taken personally.

It's a bit weird if you ask me,

Maybe something about his chocolate eyes and caramel skin makes them go all of a dither.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:36 pm

summerblues wrote:
djlovesyou wrote:They seem to treat him like he's a family member/boyfriend or something, so anything negative about him is always taken personally.

It's a bit weird if you ask me,
Maybe something about his chocolate eyes and caramel skin makes them go all of a dither.

Look, not all Nadal fans are the same.
Generalisations are silly.
I would be a fan of Rafa even if he had no muscles, had purple skin or whatever.
I don't know about Woofie, but I know about me.

by super_realist Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:36 pm

For the millionth time. I DID NOT say I wanted Nadal to receive a career threatening injury. If you want to misinterpret what I said that's fine. It is also not my problem if HN has domestic issues.

Jesus H Christ,

by CaledonianCraig Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:38 pm

Well sorry to disappoint you but I am an Andy Murray fan and no doubt he benefits from Rafa's absence but I would never stoop to craving for Nadal to have a career ending injury and I am sure the vast majority of tennis fans in the world would be in agreement. To wish for such a thing of a all-time great of the sport orveven if he were a journeyman of the sport is nauseating.

by User 774433 Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:39 pm

falzy21 wrote:you haven't been reported realist... i requested to speak to someone about it. Youre not necessarily in trouble, but me and a few others felt you were out of order, yours and dj's opinions can differ if you wish.
Itll likely just be left there

If you want to speak to admin, don't use the complain button, they rarely respond to that.
Inbox Julius.
If he's not listening to you tell him Amritia will be very angry, that should do the trick Wink

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