Is It Simply What We Already Know?

I love the man. Pac Man has given the sport of boxing his absolute everything, in the last ten years especially.

When the decline of the HW division began in the late 90s, so did the profile of the sport. However, fighters like Pac have helped to not only carry the sport, giving us stunning fights along the way, but he has also transcended it.

I don't want this article to be true, but if it is he needs to stop. I really can see him going the way of Ali if he doesn't stop soon, sadly. Two true legends of the sport.

http://www.boxingscene.com/doctors-philippines-concerned-over-pacquiaos-health--61066

Thoughts?

I hope it isn't true. But I think its more of an excuse for his loss. Hope I'm correct.

For once i do too. Still, he should hang up the gloves. He wont, but he should.

He hasn't really transended has he........Not a household name...

Think Boxing as a whole has declined since the 90s making it difficult for anybody to transcend......

Holy is probably the last true transcender........Jones jr/Hoppo/Lewis not really household names....

Mayweather/Oscar probably close......but not quite........

Not a great fan of Manny I'm afraid.....Yes he's great but the weight stipulations left a bad taste for me....

Also the Marquez ripoffs didn't help......I had him drawing the 2nd fight and losing the others......

Unlike Mayweather I think timing was everything for Manny......

For me he loses to Pryor, Camacho, Chavez, Curry, Hearns, Nelson, Arguello, Brown, Starling, Whittaker, Taylor.........If he was in their era...

I'd pick Mayweather over all of them...bar maybe Arguello...

Also never seen anybody put on thirty odd pounds and be ten times stronger....but that's another story...

Great fighter but I won't miss him..

Sad if true, a lot of my friends who are "armchair fans" of the sport said he was overrated after the Marquez knockout and I've honestly got bored of explaining just how perfect that punch was.

Like Truss the weight stipulations left a sour taste, and I've always believed that Mayweather would have made him look silly but he has given us some fantastic nights of the last few years.

Audley transcended....

Seanmichaels, if you and TRUSS continue to misuse the ellipses so blatantly then this whole thread could easily transcend into a bit** fest.

davidemore wrote:Seanmichaels, if you and TRUSS continue to misuse the ellipses so blatantly then this whole thread could easily transcend into a bit** fest.

As long as I'm the cone as Truss is clearly plane......(sic)

Sigh.

Back to boxing please. Serious article here.

Sadly, as is usually the case with the Mod's these days, when someone starts playing up on my threads they do nothing until it is too late and then delete them. Even when i am obviously trying to share new and interesting information about one of the sports finest.

I'm getting pretty sick of this.

davidemore wrote:Sigh.

Back to boxing please. Serious article here.

Sadly, as is usually the case with the Mod's these days, when someone starts playing up on my threads they do nothing until it is too late and then delete them. Even when i am obviously trying to share new and interesting information about one of the sports finest.

I'm getting pretty sick of this.

Not sure how new it is Dave. Scroll down on the homepage and you'll find someone posted the same thing this afternoon. Night night

Really? Same article?

davidemore wrote:Really? Same article?

Yup. A bit better as well.......

The most exciting fighter of his generation, but in the last couple of years he's lost his claim of being arguably the best.

Sadly poor health is an accomplice of such an exciting fighting style. There seems to be an ongoing backlash to tornado around him when his popularity peaked, but his achievements in a pound for pound sense are unmatched. Started at 106, went toe to toe all the way up to jnr middle and won far more than he lost.

Pacquiao is with out a doubt a great of the sport but I do agree with Truss that unlike some he doesn't match up well against the true greats of the sport as far as featherweight through to light middleweight goes. His all action style brought in many fans and a lot money, you were almost guaranteed an exciting fight whether it be the Marquez series or his beatdowns of Cotto or Morales. He'll be missed and remembered fondly so see no reason for him to carry on as there is very little left for him to achieve.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He hasn't really transended has he........Not a household name...

Think Boxing as a whole has declined since the 90s making it difficult for anybody to transcend......

Holy is probably the last true transcender........Jones jr/Hoppo/Lewis not really household names....

Mayweather/Oscar probably close......but not quite........

Not a great fan of Manny I'm afraid.....Yes he's great but the weight stipulations left a bad taste for me....

Also the Marquez ripoffs didn't help......I had him drawing the 2nd fight and losing the others......

Unlike Mayweather I think timing was everything for Manny......

For me he loses to Pryor, Camacho, Chavez, Curry, Hearns, Nelson, Arguello, Brown, Starling, Whittaker, Taylor.........If he was in their era...

I'd pick Mayweather over all of them...bar maybe Arguello...

Also never seen anybody put on thirty odd pounds and be ten times stronger....but that's another story...

Great fighter but I won't miss him..

Oh no, we're back on the "if he aint American he hasn't trancended" argument again. I agree Pacman has not trancended as practically no British housewife has heard of him.

Also, I disagree that Holyfield really ever trancended. I heard at a bus stop an old lady saying her face swelled up like she was Mike Tyson after an illness. You won't hear them saying their face swelled up and they looked like Evander Holyfield. Everyone and their dog has heard of Tyson and Ali but not Holyfield.

As for Pacquiou, I agree with your points. He may be a great but I can't stand the guy and was happy to see him sparked clean out.

Out of interest, Boon, what is it about Pacquiao that you can't stand?

I can understand a strong dislike of Arum. I can also appreciate why a lot of people have grown wary of the fanfare around Pacquiao, as we've had to endure a host of new 'fans' flocking to the sport since his rise to superstardom (many of which will disappear soon, I imagine) telling us that Manny is, without doubt, the greatest fighter of all time on the basis of his 434 world titles in 29 weight classes. And, of course, there's been the embarrassing spectacle which has been the 'will they, won't they?' saga of Floyd versus Manny, which most of us grew sick of about two years ago at least.

But when it comes to Pacquiao himself, I think he's brilliant. I was as frustrated as everyone else at the Marquez-Pacquiao III decision, but at the end of the day Pacquiao doesn't score the fights. I've never heard him bad-mouth an opponent before or after a fight, never seen him fight dirty (I can let that pitter-patter 'double punch' against Clottey slide, as it was clearly in jest more than anything else) and, even after losing a controversial decision to Bradley, accepted the verdict with a great deal of class.

He's been fantastic for the sport, I think. A charismatic and likeable fella who has tested himself right throughout his career, giving us some fantastic fights in doing so.

Not a dig, mate, just interested as to what gets you so riled up with regards to him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He hasn't really transended has he........Not a household name...

Think Boxing as a whole has declined since the 90s making it difficult for anybody to transcend......

Holy is probably the last true transcender........Jones jr/Hoppo/Lewis not really household names....

Mayweather/Oscar probably close......but not quite........

Lewis 'transcended' every bit as much as Holyfield. In fact the only thing that gave Holy any notoriety outside the US were his fights WITH Lewis, unless you count the Tyson debacle however I think that would be generous given that getting his ear bit was not his intention. If Holy is your benchmark of transcension then Pac and Floyd EASILY match-up and I'd be tempted to say ODLH also. About the only one I agree with is Hoppo who never had the style or personality to transcend the sport.

88Chris05 wrote:Out of interest, Boon, what is it about Pacquiao that you can't stand?

I can understand a strong dislike of Arum. I can also appreciate why a lot of people have grown wary of the fanfare around Pacquiao, as we've had to endure a host of new 'fans' flocking to the sport since his rise to superstardom (many of which will disappear soon, I imagine) telling us that Manny is, without doubt, the greatest fighter of all time on the basis of his 434 world titles in 29 weight classes. And, of course, there's been the embarrassing spectacle which has been the 'will they, won't they?' saga of Floyd versus Manny, which most of us grew sick of about two years ago at least.

But when it comes to Pacquiao himself, I think he's brilliant. I was as frustrated as everyone else at the Marquez-Pacquiao III decision, but at the end of the day Pacquiao doesn't score the fights. I've never heard him bad-mouth an opponent before or after a fight, never seen him fight dirty (I can let that pitter-patter 'double punch' against Clottey slide, as it was clearly in jest more than anything else) and, even after losing a controversial decision to Bradley, accepted the verdict with a great deal of class.

He's been fantastic for the sport, I think. A charismatic and likeable fella who has tested himself right throughout his career, giving us some fantastic fights in doing so.

Not a dig, mate, just interested as to what gets you so riled up with regards to him.

I don't like the catchweights, hate them. For example, why did he need to force Cotto down 2lbs? Take the guy at his full strength it's his title and he should be entitled to defend it the best he can. I mean two pounds!

Then there's Arum as you say. Guilty by association.

Then there's the way he leaped up and down when he sparked Hatton. Left a bad taste in the mouth that did. Like he couldn't give a toss if he just killed him or not.

The Marquez rip offs of course.

The fact he wouldn't take the test for the Mayweather fight.

I am also greatly suspicious that a guy who started as a super fly I think make his way up as a super strong light middleweight. I just don't buy it.

Well, im not a fan of catchweights either, and I particularly dislike the idea of titles being at risk in them. This isn't the days of eight weight classes separated by as much as a stone anymore - there are seventeen of the bleeding things now. Catchweights, in the days of Canzoneri, Ross, Armstrong et al, were perfectly understandable. In today's age, however, they're a joke.

But, despite all of that, even miserable old I can't deny that Manny's win and performance against Cotto was one of the best of the twenty-first century so far. Catchweight or not, Cotto was getting soundly thrashed that night, because Pacquiao was simply on fire. Only a little over eighteen months earlier, Manny had still been fighting as a Super-Featherweight. If you'd have asked the fans, writers and fellow professionals in March 2008 that, in November 2009, Pacquiao would be taking on Cotto, most would likely have opined (and quite a few on the old 606 did) that Pacquiao would have been smashed to smithereens even if the fight had been at 140 lb, never mind 145!

Besides, even outside of Cotto, Pacquiao has other wins of the highest rank; Barrera at 126 lb in 2003, Marquez at 130 lb in 2008, Hatton at 140 lb in 2009. There can be no unpleasant stench attached to those victories, no allegations of Pacquiao or his team being dealt a hand which heavily favoured them, and basically no excuses on behalf of his opponent.

I personally didn't see a great deal wrong with Pacquiao's celebration in the wake of knocking Hatton out. Considering he'd just won a Vegas megafight in sensational style, cementing his claim to the pound for pound crown, I'd say that his celebration, all things considered, was actually fairly reserved, low-key and run of the mill, relatively speaking.

You could argue, I suppose, that he shouldn't have been celebrating at all, but that's a little unreasonable, for me. If we counted 'em up, we'd be here all month going through examples of fighters celebtrating after adminstering a savage knockout, so I wouldn't single Manny out in that respect. It's not as if he stood over Hatton, or taunted him in the aftermath - and as you know, these kind of things have happened elsewhere, unfortunately.

As for the issue of how he's moved through the weights - well, to be frank, I tend to think that some of the suspicion thrown over Pacquiao is wildly unfair.

It's a rare fighter indeed who can move from Flyweight to Welter and retain power, speed and conditioning, but as the likes of McLarnin and Armstrong demonstrated, every once in a while it can happen (particularly if, like McLarnin and Pacquiao, you start punching for pay as merely a sixteen year old boy, still growing and with very little food in your stomach).

Hell, even Mr Mayweather was weighing 110 lb or less as a sixteen year old amateur and has now grown in to a reasonably-sized and immensely strong Welterweight. He's reminded us of this, of course, as a way of downplaying Pacquiao's achievements and saying that he gets too much credit for them....Before then also stating that Pacquiao's feats across the divsions are highly suspicious and, as such, he should bow to Floyd's drug testing demands which, curiously, he never wished to impose on any other opponent beforehand.

It's that kind of hypocrisy from Mayweather which makes it even more sickening, at least for me, that he's been able to drag Pacquiao's name through the mud the way he has.

It's not as if Pacquiao has been decapitating the bigger fellas he's fought. He's simply been good enough, quick enough and conditioned enough (and, shock horror, skilled enough) to keep them at distance and stay on the move against them, ala Margarito and Clottey. Such performances, in which he's been unable to put the other man away in spite of having all the time in the world to tee off on them, hints merely at a man who has managed his weight well and, naturally, has honed his game to make up for the lack of power which he had boat loads of lower down, hence his lack of genuine stoppage wins above 135 lb.

As for the Arum issue, well I guess we'd have to make a hell of a lot of other fights guilty by association, too! Anyway, rant over.

Yours sincerely, D4.

He nearly decapitated Hatton and beat up on Clottey, Margarito and Cotto, much naturally larger men. Really unusual performances.

He almost stopped Clottey with body shots and admittedly eased off Margarito and Cotto (and Mosley).

I'm not so sure there isn't a stench associated with the Pacquiao name -- as his recent fight with Marquez will attest. Interesting to ponder what exactly Marquez did differently to Pacquiao to have his name dragged through the mud in such a fashion? Hired a "conditioner" and packed on a load of muscle while wielding eye-popping power at a far higher weight than he started?

Any argument over whether a boxer is on the level these days are pretty much redundant, however, as no-one can be sure (bar those directly involved). Every fighter with an asterix these days and should, too, until blood testing is rolled out en masse (probably after some poor soul is killed down the road).

If you're going to criticise Manny for celebrating after the Hatton knockout then you have to criticise Marquez for celebrating after his knockout victory over Manny. Manny was in equally as bad a way as Ricky was.

Hatton had been wobbled by much lighter punchers than Pacquiao beforehand though, Haz. He was in a world of trouble late on against Collazo and Urango, so I don't think that Pacquiao (who was smack bang in the middle of his best run of form, too) blitzing him like that should be considered too good to be true.

Of course he beat up on Margarito and Mosley - the pair of them were shot and tailor-made for him by that stage. As for Cotto...Well, Miguel's a top class fighter, but has always been one who gets hit a wee bit too much for my liking. Pacquiao was brimming with confidence, was as fit as a fiddle and was simply too good.

Mayweather, in 2002, was looking small and slight in comparison to Castillo down at Lightweight. Fast forward eight years, and he's mauling Mosley at Welter and looking like the more physically imposing fighter.

This is what confuses me; those who are quick to point the finger at Manny never seem to do the same to Floyd. As Floyd himself has stated, the respective weights or himself and Pacquiao from when they were sixteen / seventeen up until the last three or four years have been somewhat similar, with neither man really losing much zip in their performances.

If Manny is under suspicion, then Floyd must be as well, surely?

As for the Marquez comparison, I actually said that Marquez's win over Manny last month shouldn't be accepted with cynicism until we can say for sure that there was something fishy going on, but surely you can see that Marquez actually hiring a conditioner with a storied history of supplying PEDs to athletes, and also bragging about how he was able to hide their presence, gives us far more reason to question Marquez's legitimacy as a Welter than Manny's, if we insist on questioning either man?

I do like Pacquiao but his recent opposition has made him look more devastating than he actually is at the higher weights.

De La Hoya, Mosley and Margarito were all shot to pieces and to be honest Pacquiao didn't look a particularly heavy puncher in giving them a beating. Clottey wasn't much to write home about and never looked in any major trouble despite being in his shell for 12 rounds. Bradley wasn't overly troubled by his power which leaves his demolition of the face first Hatton and the domination of Cotto. Sounds a fairly critical appraisal but it's more to highlight that his power hasn't gone with him through the weights as much as people suggest.

Yeah take all your points Chris (and there are a lot of them) but I never did like the guy. I just don't like his face. Hell if supposedly seasoned old dogs and 606 stlawarts like Imperial Ghosty and Trussman can have an irrational disregard for anything that the K bros have ever done rubbishing them into insignificance then I'm taking mine with Pacquoiu! (never could spell it).

To get it out in the open I'm also no fan of Frank Bruno, Carl Froch, David Haye, Naseem Hamed and all German based boxers (except K2).

I wouldn't have put it as eloquently, but I agree with every word Chris has written here, which is a lot of agreeing. Does that make me a Pactard?

milkyboy wrote:I wouldn't have put it as eloquently, but I agree with every word Chris has written here, which is a lot of agreeing. Does that make me a Pactard?

I thought you'd stopped trying to climb the social ladder Milky but there you go again.

I'll never stop trying shah.. That's the beauty of being on the bottom rung, you don't need to worry about falling off.

milkyboy wrote:I'll never stop trying shah.. That's the beauty of being on the bottom rung, you don't need to worry about falling off.

True but I think you'd be better served by stepping onto that bottom rung rather than lying flat on your face and holding onto it with your hands

Manny hasn't transcended anything..... he's sang beyond the limits of boxing (but surely thats a joke?).

He's a gung ho, leap in with two feet well mannered fighter with a dig and a massive great big ticking ticker. He may become a polititian but on the international stage, beyond his native country, he's no more than uneducated, smiling, heavy handed half wit whos part of a globally insignificant group of islands.

...good boxer though

It's the only way I can keep the ladder steady for high fliers like yourself shah. That's what my slave contract stipulates

TheMackemMawler wrote:He may be a polititian but on the international stage, beyond his native country, he's no more than a, smiling, heavy handed half wit whos part of a globally insignificant group of islands.

Not a bad description of David Cameron

....except that our country is hugely significant.

I couldn't agree more Chris. Great points well made.

There's also absolutely no shame in being a "hardcore" boxing fan and also a Pac Man fan.

You see this in a lot of areas, football, music etc, where people love to proclaim themselves from the rooftops as true/hardcore fans and act as if they're too cool for the next big thing.

I'm definitely against titles being available at catchweights but then aren't we often the same bunch who say titles are nearly meaningless these days anyway?

Also worth remembering that before the Oscar fight, very few people picked Manny to win. There was a great deal of revisionist thinking going on after that fight.

Just to throw this out there too, even as a Pac Man fan, in previous posts here and in private conversations with friends, I picked Floyd to beat him every time.

Terrible shame for all involved that we didn't get to see it back in 2010 when it would have been huge.

Whatever people's thoughts are on Hagler v Hearns, at least we got to see it....

Agree with some of that tumbling but regarding the odlh that manny fought - he looked like a Somalian during ramadhan. Of course its going to affect how its viewed.

A Somalian during Ramadhan, I shouldn't but that did make me chuckle.

No racism please. Just because i wrote the article, doesn't mean chaos needs to descend.