Saracens vs Edinburgh - Heineken Cup Round 6.

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Saracens vs Edinburgh


15 Chris Wyles
14 Chris Ashton
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 David Strettle
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Richard Wigglesworth
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 George Kruis
6 Kelly Brown
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 John Smit
17 Rhys Gill
18 Petrus du Plessis
19 Mouritz Botha
20 Nick Fenton-Wells
21 Neil de Kock
22 Joel Tomkins
23 Duncan Taylor

Unfortunately Saracens have carried on the foolish and ineffectual experiment of Farrell at 13. Goode misses out again due to injury. Good to see Hodgson,Vunipola and Kruis all come in though.


http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/edinburgh-news/4636-one-change-for-sarries-cup-clash



Edinburgh Rugby team v Saracens, Heineken Cup Round 6
Vicarage Road, Sunday 20 January (KO 12.45pm)

15 Greig Tonks

14 Dougie Fife
13 Ben Cairns
12 Matt Scott
11 Tim Visser



10 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN

9 Richie Rees



1 Robin Hislop
2 Steven Lawrie

3 Willem Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Sean Cox
6 Stuart McInally
7 Dimitri Basilaia
8 Netani Talei

Substitutes
16 Andy Titterrell
17 Alex Allan
18 Geoff Cross
19 David Denton
20 Roddy Grant
21 Piers Francis

22 Ben Atiga
23 Lee Jones

Edinburgh have made one change to their team and bizarrely Denton is on the bench.


Thoughts?

Embra fans

Only positive was I watched it in the pub. Cute friendly barmaid who sympathised with me and beer.

There is no team there at all. Laidlaw is very lucky to be in the Scotland training camp with that woeful, gutless performance.

Somebody above suggested Tonks was the best full back in Scotland Did they see Stuart Hogg yesterday ? Obviously not.

Overall no bottle, no ability, no chance.

As a Warrior I must say - " Bradley must stay "

But as a Scotland fan do you not want two successful teams and competition?

tonks isn't better than Hogg, but he's definitely better than murchie - that's an easy one

Another positive I thought was young Steve Lawrie at hooker. The lineout went to pot after he left the field and he carried well. Hislop was also lively in the loose and although he struggled against Stevens, he's worth sticking with.

Sarries are a very good side, and do the basics superbly well. They contested every ruck well, put pressure on every set piece and their rush defence made things very tough for Laidlaw and Scott. All credit to them. Not many sides are getting much change from them at the moment, and we are nowhere near smart enough or competent enough to trouble them.

As above, I thought Lawrie did pretty well, Talei looked hungry, Scott did ok and Tonks tried valiantly.

Laidlaw kicked too much but he and his line were under huge pressure all the time from Barritt and co. The pack couldn't generate enough momentum and front foot ball to allow the back to do an awful lot, so Laidlaw just resorted to chip kicks to try and negate the rush. Very nearly worked early doors, and had Cairns clung on and gone under the stick it might have made Sarries slightly edgy.

Who knows, ultimately the better side won, and Edinburgh once again are defeated. They must now focus on Cardiff at Murrayfield and make sure they win that one. No question Bradley goes at the end of the season, regardless of what happens, but there are players in my view who should be playing for their contracts next season, as well as pride and the fans.

I know it probably made no difference, but Bradley was suggesting their 2nd try shouldn't have counted because the kicking tea was on the pitch so he shouldn't have been allowed to punt it?

Luckily he didn't go on to suggest that we would have won if that hadn't happened!

How was Cairnsy? Think him and Scott will make a good combo and the more gametime he gets the better. It's incredible he was out for 15 months!

Cairns barely touched the ball, not sure it went down the line once. Laidlaw chipped a lot and cairns very nearly collected one but overall he was quiet. Scott showed up in defence and carried well. Neither centre had much to work with, so difficult to judge.

RDW_Scotland wrote:But as a Scotland fan do you not want two successful teams and competition?

this is schizoid were talking about, of course he doesnt. He'd much rather revel and gloat as he always does.

I really don't think there's anything for either of us to gloat about after our respective hc campaigns. One win from twelve is shocking.

Both edinburgh and glasgow were better last season.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

bsando wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

bsando wrote:hmm I don't know Imperial... Was it the gameplan for Scotland vs Tonga? Because he had a shocker in that game too.

Its been the gameplan all season regardless of whos playing flyhalf.

What about the win over Ospreys? Laidlaw wasn't at flyhalf that day and we won 23 - 13. The only other wins we've had this season have been against Connacht (not exactly the toughest team in the Rabbo) and Blues (who are having perhaps an even worse season than Edinburgh). Yet we manage to beat Ospreys well with, you guessed it, no Laidlaw. Hunter was at FH vs Ulster the previous week where we lost 45-20, but we were right in that game up until 60th minute and we had lots of key players missing. I'm just trying to present another perspective on why Edinburgh are playing so badly this season instead of simply blaming the coaches.

even in those games we kicked the leather off the ball. Seriously, every game this season, there has been aimless kicking, regardless of whos at 10. Bradley has stated in multiple interviews that he wants to build a territorial game this season. Read todays scotland on sunday, he says it, he said it last week, and the week before etc.it is the gameplan and its not working.

Fair enough Imperial & TJ, I wasn't aware Bradley was looking to play a territorial game. I thought his choice of signings reflected the more open style of play. I read that article and it doesn't really mention territorial style play but Bradley's excuses are rather trivial and he does need to answer for our awful season to some extent. I just really hope Laidlaw can perform well for Scotland in a few weeks.

To be fair a snow storm isn't the time to play an open game of rugby...

How did Sarries manage to score 5 tries in that weather?? Unbelievable.

I still can't understand why Denton didn't start.

Those were tough conditions yesterday which suited Saracens.

Saracens are a team many people dislike because they are one of the most frustrating sides to play against.

bsando those weren't the conditions for running rugby.

Laidlaw's chip through did lead to a try for Edinburgh albeit from a Saracens error.

I think it was a pretty good tactic actually.

Exactly FES. Saracens don't do the flashy stuff but the basics are just as effective.

Edinburgh in my opinion need to focus firstly on tightening up their defence.

Quins for example playing an exciting style but first and foremost they have a tough uncompromising defence. Same with Clermont.

Denton was out injured

RDW_Scotland wrote:Denton was out injured

Fair enough.

You had a few players out too didn't you?

Saracens used their kicking game to score tries. 2 chips. 1 crossfield kick.

Plus Hodgson running through a gap (he's done that a few times now) and Stevens scoring from a rolling maul.

Only major one was Ross Ford, and to a lesser extent John Yapp might have shored the scrum up at loosehead, but apart from them and Denton that was pretty much our first team. Worryingly.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Only major one was Ross Ford, and to a lesser extent John Yapp might have shored the scrum up at loosehead, but apart from them and Denton that was pretty much our first team. Worryingly.

Don't forget Rennie. He's a big player for you. Plus Jacobsen.

bsando wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

bsando wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

bsando wrote:hmm I don't know Imperial... Was it the gameplan for Scotland vs Tonga? Because he had a shocker in that game too.

Its been the gameplan all season regardless of whos playing flyhalf.

What about the win over Ospreys? Laidlaw wasn't at flyhalf that day and we won 23 - 13. The only other wins we've had this season have been against Connacht (not exactly the toughest team in the Rabbo) and Blues (who are having perhaps an even worse season than Edinburgh). Yet we manage to beat Ospreys well with, you guessed it, no Laidlaw. Hunter was at FH vs Ulster the previous week where we lost 45-20, but we were right in that game up until 60th minute and we had lots of key players missing. I'm just trying to present another perspective on why Edinburgh are playing so badly this season instead of simply blaming the coaches.

even in those games we kicked the leather off the ball. Seriously, every game this season, there has been aimless kicking, regardless of whos at 10. Bradley has stated in multiple interviews that he wants to build a territorial game this season. Read todays scotland on sunday, he says it, he said it last week, and the week before etc.it is the gameplan and its not working.

Fair enough Imperial & TJ, I wasn't aware Bradley was looking to play a territorial game. I thought his choice of signings reflected the more open style of play. I read that article and it doesn't really mention territorial style play but Bradley's excuses are rather trivial and he does need to answer for our awful season to some extent. I just really hope Laidlaw can perform well for Scotland in a few weeks.

Honestly? Why would you try for a territorial game when, if it wasn't for gravity, your first choice hooker would miss the ground with his throws. Bradley's position is absolutely unsustainable and whilst it's a problem that the SRU would rather not have at the moment, the country needs new talent at club level. Can you imagine what Eddie O'Sullivan would do with Edinburgh's backline, properly coached?

Oh of course Rennie - we're missing him a massive amount just now I think.

Jacobsen - not so much.

What I don't get is how they can go from being one of the most threatening attacking teams in the Tournament to this dirge we have been subjected to over the course of the pro 12 and the Heineken Cup?

We always leaked tries, but we used to be able to fall back on the fact we could score more than the opposition, Bradley has to go.

Replacements? EOS? Chic Chalmers (although has probably ruffled too many feathers in the SRU Blazer club to be considered)? Or Robinson? Come back Robbo all is forgiven!

I'd be more than happy for Robinson to come back. In fact, I think he should be a prime target. Suspect there might be some bad blood there though!

We all know he's a fantastic coach - just doesn't cut it at international level as a selector.

As for alternatives - would be good to have a Scottish coach in the set up at least, but maybe not head coach.

I'm really disappointed with the forwards - is Back a bad coach or are the players just crap? I thought Back would be pretty decent.

Ruggerradge remember this time you have been facing far tougher opposition than last season.

Saracens are a serious step up to London Irish.

Munster are a lot stronger than Cardiff.

Racing Metro are the same but even last season your matches were tight.

Plus you were poor in the Pro12 even last season.


First build a platform for your backs to work off. It makes life so much easier for the backs with a pack doing well.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:What I don't get is how they can go from being one of the most threatening attacking teams in the Tournament to this dirge we have been subjected to over the course of the pro 12 and the Heineken Cup?

We always leaked tries, but we used to be able to fall back on the fact we could score more than the opposition, Bradley has to go.

Replacements? EOS? Chic Chalmers (although has probably ruffled too many feathers in the SRU Blazer club to be considered)? Or Robinson? Come back Robbo all is forgiven!

Robinson is a good club coach I think. Shame he was Poopie as an international one,

Chalmers needs to step up into the pro game somewhere. Might be as good a choice as anyone

I've created an article (more like War and Peace) on the topic of turning around losing teams.

https://www.606v2.com/t39682-how-do-you-turn-around-a-losing-team-edinburgh-example#1799048

It is fairly depressing reading but any input would be welcome.

beshocked wrote:
First build a platform for your backs to work off. It makes life so much easier for the backs with a pack doing well.

It's an obvious point but a key one. When Edinburgh have quick ball and momentum, we are a good side. Generating it is the key thing though, and all too often our basics let us down.

Sarries were totally regimented when it came to going through the phases. At each phase every Sarries player knew who the runner would be and who would be tasked with clearly out quick ball. As a result it was polished, and ground was invariably made.

Count the number of times Edinburgh knocked on, or the player receiving the ball had his head in the clouds, not expecting to receive it. Also count the number of times the ball was passed from the base of the ruck by an Edinburgh player other than the designated scrum half. All signs of poor drill work and poor basics.

The set piece is clearly a problem area, but that doesn't entirely account for the lack of good ball for the backs. Some of the Edinburgh lineouts went pretty well (until Titterall came one) and generated quick ball. Hopeless though if Laidlaw's role was simply to kick it back to Sarries. The chip over the top is a fine tactic (and it very nearly put Edinburgh 7 up at the outset) but it has to be a surprise, and it certainly can't be the only tactic. Once Sarries were wise to it the wingers came of the wing and swept up the ball, leading to an immediate turn over and counter attack opportunity. Even after this had happened twice, Edinburgh still stuck with the tactic. Ludicrous!