Tennis to step up drug fight in light of Lance Armstrong scandal

First topic message reminder :

Lance Armstrong's admission that he took drugs to help him win all seven of his Tour de France titles has put performance enhancing substances in the spotlight.
Now tennis has been brought into the debate with former world number four Guy Forget claiming he was beaten by rivals who took drugs.
Three players - Ryan Newport from the United States, Bulgarian Dimitar Kutrovsky and Italian Filippo Calorosi - are currently suspended from playing for taking drugs and Forget believes they are not the only men on the circuit guilty of doping.
BBC Sport speaks to current and ex players, coaches and officials in charge of testing to try and discover if tennis has a drug problem.

Drugs in tennis

The Men's Tennis Council began drug testing in the late 1980s with the focus mainly on recreational drugs. The testing was extended to include performance-enhancing drugs when the ATP Tour was formed in 1990.

Guy Forget claims he played against rivals who had taken drugs
But Guy Forget, who was ranked the fourth best player in the world in 1991, is convinced he played against players who were doping.
He says: "I have lost matches against guys who beat me with an unfair advantage because they were taking drugs.
"For sure, it has happened. I can look at myself in the mirror knowing I have never taken anything.
"When I played there were no controls at all so why wouldn't you cheat the system."

The situation now

The International Tennis Federation (ITF) now leads a unified Tennis Anti-Doping Programme applying across all tennis events.
The ITF carried out 131 blood tests both in and out of competition in 2011, the last year for which figures are available. That was alongside 2,019 urine tests.
Now the ITF are planning to introduce an athlete biological passport (ABP) which allows officials to collect and compare biological data and spot variances that suggest doping.
“
I feel tennis is clean, I do very much. For the amount of times that we get tested throughout the year and as random as they are, definitely
”
Maria Sharapova
It is an improvement many in the game believe is needed.
Forget added: "I don't feel our sport is clean. I am sure now as we speak there are some guys that are cheating. You cannot say tennis is not touched by this poisonous thing.
"I think it is a minority probably, but that is why Roger Federer and the other guys says we should put more money into blood test and controls because we should fight this any way we can."
Australian coach Darren Cahill, who has coached Lleyton Hewitt and Andre Agassi in the past, says on Twitter: "Our testing program is inadequate. That's why no-one can stand up and speak out. It's gone backwards in recent years."
Current world number one Novak Djokovic recently complained the number of blood tests he has undergone has dropped in the last year.
He said: "I wasn't tested with blood for last six, seven months. It was more regularly in last two, three years ago. I don't know the reason why they stopped it."

Fighting back

Dr. Stuart Miller, who oversees the ITF's anti-doping programme, claims education as much as detection is the best way to cure the problems of drugs in sport.
But he is an advocate of plans to bring in an ABP to make it easier to find the drug cheats.
Miller says: "We think we can improve by introducing what is known as the athlete biological passport, which is a blood-based testing programme which allows you to establish individual baseline parameters.
"That is not in operation at the moment. But we're looking very, very closely at it and I think that there's a reasonably good chance that that will be operational probably towards the end of 2013.
"It takes a long time to set up. There's a number of constraints and conditions that you have to satisfy, you can't just turn a switch."
What is a athlete biological passport
An ABP is an electronic document about the athlete that contains certain biomarkers from through his career.

If these markers change dramatically from the historic levels it alerts officials that the athlete might be doping.

Miller went on to answer Forget's complaints.
"I think we need to put a couple of things into context," he said. "Firstly I think Forget answered his own question when he said back at the time when he was playing, anti-doping was very different.
"There was no such thing as the World Anti-Doping Agency, there was no list of prohibited substances that all the sports signed up to and actually tennis was one of the pioneering sports in introducing anti-doping testing back in Forget's time.
"Granted, it was for a different list of prohibited substances - it was mainly recreational substances - and he's right, there wasn't as much testing, but tennis was pioneering at that particular time. And it's come a long way since that time, when he was playing."

Is tennis clean?

The leading players have thrown their support behind initiatives to weed out rivals who use drugs to enhance their performance but many are content that the sport is not on a par with the level of doping that has been uncovered in cycling.
World number three Andy Murray says: "I think all sports are trying to improve their doping controls.
"If that's more blood testing or the biological passports, that's something we need to do and improve in tennis, as well.

The three men currently banned for drug taking
Filippo Calorosi (Ita)
Dimitar Kutrovsky (Bul)
Ryan Newport (USA)

Four time grand slam winner Maria Sharapova is confident she is competing on a level playing field.
The Russian says: "I feel tennis is clean, I do very much. For the amount of times that we get tested throughout the year and as random as they are, definitely."
Tennis great Martina Navratilova, who won 18 Grand Slam titles, accepts doping has taken place in tennis but not a large degree.
She says: "There is very stringent drug testing going on and it has to be done, because there obviously has been some cheating going on as a few people have been caught.
"But overall, I think we have a pretty clean sport. You know that Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal or any of those guys wouldn't do anything like what Lance Armstrong was doing.
"I think tennis is doing a pretty good job, at least from what I see."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/21139622

not sure about this one. thoughts?

legendkillarV2 wrote:clear visibility

Is that some sort of visual test they do on the urine?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:clear visibility

Is that some sort of visual test they do on the urine?

If it's clear then it's clean

It Must Be Love wrote:In cycling wasn't LA the most vocal against drugs?
You posted a link on OTF of him even talking about it in an interview if I remember correctly.

nah he wasn't. He was only called upon it when he was accused and naturally responded with the "never failed a test" shabang.
He said how everything was rosy and even a suggestion :O !!!

For those who might be interested, the Fuentes trial started today, with Fuentes himself taking the stand tomorrow morning. It is thought that Fuentes supplied performance enhancing drugs to cyclists and maybe other sports.

I had the TV on just now (maybe ITV) and they mentioned he may have a connection to other sports and then mentioned specifically football and tennis, as if something might come out in this case. However they are limiting the investigation to cycling apparently, so I am not sure it will.

Now, why would they do that? If other sports are clean why not ask Fuentes a few questions during the trial to quickly determine whether follow up questions. Has he ever been asked to provide a full list of clients? And if not, why not? He may refuse to give it, or lie and omit some names, but shouldn't he be asked?

Any thoughts?

I think the Fuentes case will be a let down to those who want to see athletes outside of cycling named.

The whole thing reeks of PR sham in a bid to somehow clean cycling post LA or at least be seeing to do so.

If other names are mentioned I might just take an interest.

Frankly, I just don't care about cycling in the least. Watching a grown man ride a bicycle for days on end is about as interesting to me in as counting the individual fibers of the carpet in my home.

Henman Bill wrote:

Now, why would they do that? If other sports are clean why not ask Fuentes a few questions during the trial to quickly determine whether follow up questions. Has he ever been asked to provide a full list of clients? And if not, why not? He may refuse to give it, or lie and omit some names, but shouldn't he be asked?

Any thoughts?

It was never Fuentes that was the obstacle when it came to getting the non-cyclists named. He has always been annoyed that they are not allowed to be named. It was the tennis and football authorities that got a court order to stop the naming of anyone involved in their sport. Hence the wrist slap Le Journal du Dimanche got when it named a certain tennis player.

Le journal du dimanche never named anyone, ie in terms of exposing them.
They heard rumours that other sports could also be involved and then speculated with a list of Spanish athletes which could be involved.

It's totally different from them saying 'We've found the list and uncovered Player X' etc.

No they didn't. They said it came from 'unnamed official Spanish sources' and named a certain tennis player plus 5 Real Madrid players as being on the list.

The tennis player said he was very angry was thinking about legal action.

No they didn't.
They speculated possible names that could be included, which included the Real Madrid team, Barcelona team, and Rafa and many others.

So no 'unnamed official Spanish sources then'?

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=2508656

a French newspaper which loosely linked him to a Spanish doping probe.

Le Journal du Dimanche reported Sunday that Nadal, the world's second-ranked player, could be one of those other athletes.

I read the actual article, before it was taken down. Clearly you haven't.

No you didn't. I remember when we had the last long doping discussion on this site and you'd barely even heard of this whole Fuentes thing, so don't try to pretend you're hugely in the know about it.

"On July 2006, the Journal du Dimanche reported that the names of the tennis player Rafael Nadal and five Real Madrid players are on the black list transmitted to the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) by the Spanish judicial authorities"

That's from the wiki article (it's sourced).

djlovesyou wrote:No you didn't.

Yes I did.
I was part of a private Nadal fan forum, and the link to the article was posted at the time. Then the newspaper took it down 2 weeks later.

djlovesyou wrote:
That's from the wiki article (it's sourced).

I trust the actual article I've read, and the espn link I provided which back me up.
Can you give a link for your quote?

I've found the link.
They are simply wrong here, I've read the article and espn have stated exactly what I read.

Funnily enough:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Puerto
The bit you quoted had this reference to it (remember wikipedia just reports from other sources): Source Number 6.
http://archives.tdg.ch/TG/TG/-/article-2006-07-628/c-est-ce-qu-affirme-le-journal-du-dimanche-qui-cite-des-sources-espagnoles

It's a dead-end.

You haven't read the article though.

You had barely heard of Fuentes/Puerto when we had the doping discussion last year. That's a cheeky little bluff.

All of the other news sources state 1 specific tennis player and 5 footballers from Real Madrid.

djlovesyou wrote:You haven't read the article though.

You had barely heard of Fuentes/Puerto when we had the doping discussion last year. That's a cheeky little bluff.

No.

djlovesyou wrote:
All of the other news sources state 1 specific tennis player and 5 footballers from Real Madrid.

Can you name me some please?
I've posted a link which pretty much exactly backs up what I said from espn.
Your wiki link sourced a non existent article.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/football/2013/01/23/02003-20130123ARTSPO00403-le-gouvernement-espagnol-a-t-il-couvert-des-footballeurs-dans-l-affaire-puerto.php

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/dopingskandal-die-naechste-explosion-steht-bevor-1.786089

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/2006-07-05-doping-doctor_x.htm

Didn't take that long. The bottom one is from 2006 and quite specifically mentions the 'unidentified Spanish sources'.

They were speculating, they had no evidence at all.
It wasn't like a Panorama investigation where they exposed anything, it was a sources have said that these players might be named.
Mentioning some RM players and Rafa.

This is close to the espn article I posted earlier:
http://www.thetennisspace.com/why-dont-the-french-like-rafael-nadal/

djlovesyou wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:

Now, why would they do that? If other sports are clean why not ask Fuentes a few questions during the trial to quickly determine whether follow up questions. Has he ever been asked to provide a full list of clients? And if not, why not? He may refuse to give it, or lie and omit some names, but shouldn't he be asked?

Any thoughts?

It was never Fuentes that was the obstacle when it came to getting the non-cyclists named. He has always been annoyed that they are not allowed to be named. It was the tennis and football authorities that got a court order to stop the naming of anyone involved in their sport.

Thanks, I guess you know more about that than me. Any info to support that Fuentes wanted to speak out, or a link to show info about the court order. If that's correct, then seems very strange. So Fuentes would be committing some kind of offence by speaking the truth? Does doctor-patient confidentiality extend to not revealing that someone is a client, in addition to not revealing specifics? IS that some kind of law?

It Must Be Love wrote:This is close to the espn article I posted earlier:
http://www.thetennisspace.com/why-dont-the-french-like-rafael-nadal/

To some people, stating that an unnamed Spanish source has told them that Rafa and 5 Real footballers were on the list could be classed as 'loosely linked'. Simply put, that's what the article said. It wasn't these people might be on the list, it was some guy in Spain told us that they ARE on the list. All you've got is the term 'loosely linked' and then some stuff you've made up about them speculating about who might be on the list.

The article stated they were on the list according to a source in Spain. You can pretend you read the article and it didn't say that as much as you want.

I'm not saying any of this is credible evidence, but the fact that he never took legal action is quite eye-opening.

Henman Bill wrote:
Thanks, I guess you know more about that than me. Any info to support that Fuentes wanted to speak out, or a link to show info about the court order. If that's correct, then seems very strange. So Fuentes would be committing some kind of offence by speaking the truth? Does doctor-patient confidentiality extend to not revealing that someone is a client, in addition to not revealing specifics? IS that some kind of law?

Fuentes has never named anyone. He's always just been annoyed that by some random miracle, the only blood-bags that were assigned names were the blood-bags used by cyclists, despite the fact that only 30% of the bags found and sportsmen who used his services were cyclists.

It's not so much that he wants to come out and say it, it's that he wants someone else to come out and say it. He's hiding behind the whole doctor/patient thing to protect himself. So I was wrong in my first post - he doesn't want to come out and say it himself for one reason or another, but he has always been quite clear that it wasn't only cyclists that were his clients and that it's not fair that only they have been named.

Henman Bill wrote:

djlovesyou wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:

Now, why would they do that? If other sports are clean why not ask Fuentes a few questions during the trial to quickly determine whether follow up questions. Has he ever been asked to provide a full list of clients? And if not, why not? He may refuse to give it, or lie and omit some names, but shouldn't he be asked?

Any thoughts?

It was never Fuentes that was the obstacle when it came to getting the non-cyclists named. He has always been annoyed that they are not allowed to be named. It was the tennis and football authorities that got a court order to stop the naming of anyone involved in their sport.

Thanks, I guess you know more about that than me. Any info to support that Fuentes wanted to speak out, or a link to show info about the court order. If that's correct, then seems very strange. So Fuentes would be committing some kind of offence by speaking the truth? Does doctor-patient confidentiality extend to not revealing that someone is a client, in addition to not revealing specifics? IS that some kind of law?

There are interviews with Fuentes from the period where he expresses his frustration that more names had not come out. A quick google should find some.

Has Fuentes committed any criminal offence of any kind by supplying drugs to sportsman? Or are these drugs legal to buy and sell, just against the rules for use in sports tournaments?

HB

Mostly Fuentes wasn't supplying drugs, but was working on blood doping, where an amount of the athlete's blood is removed and then centrifuged to separate the red cells prior to re-infusion - the effect is similar although less effective than EPO use.

The problem is that the transfusions carry some risk, especially if the blood is poorly stored (google 'Ricardo Ricco' for the story of what can go wrong), and as such Fuentes is in court basically for medical malpractice.

Nothing he did was actually illegal at the time, so they're trying him on charges of endangering the health of his clients.

If there are clean spanish footballers and tennis players you'd think that they'd be furious that names can't come out. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9834122/Operation-Puerto-doctor-Eufemiano-Fuentes-treated-tennis-players-athletes-footballers-and-a-boxer.html

If no names come out of this trial spanish tennis players and footballers lose the right to the benefit of the doubt in my view.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21250239

Not looking like much will come out.

The Spaniards are doing a good job of not carrying out a proper investigation into other sports. Frankly, if the other sports are clean, why are their players and governing bodies not calling for a full investigation to dismiss the unpleasant rumours?

Henman Bill wrote:The Spaniards are doing a good job of not carrying out a proper investigation into other sports. Frankly, if the other sports are clean, why are their players and governing bodies not calling for a full investigation to dismiss the unpleasant rumours?

Perhaps because this sort of attitude persists?

The Contador news is incredible, there is no definitive evidence and they give him the maximum punishment…LAMENTABLE…keep your spirits up champion! All my support!,

The nadal newspaper articles has been done before a few times on the forum (to be polite), speculation from a newspaper not stating source is always dodgy.
I dont' think this court case is gonna give us anything about tennis doping, they'll focus on the cycling first, and that will take a LOONG time. it'll prolly take years to come out... which is a real shame, because I really just want to know the list, soo we can bury the hatchet on it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-last-word-truth-and-reconciliation-over-drugs-in-sport-i-will-take-the-truth-part-8477977.html

What do the doubters think?

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-last-word-truth-and-reconciliation-over-drugs-in-sport-i-will-take-the-truth-part-8477977.html

What do the doubters think?

from your linked article

the International Tennis Federation president Francesco Ricci Bitti pointed out Rafa Nadal has been tested "six or seven" times as he prepares to return. Nadal has never failed a test and there should be no reason to point any suspicious fingers but the insinuation and rumour is out there now and it will not go away unless that list of names is revealed.

You know what I think? That's an example of gutter press journalism at its very worst. The list of names referred to is not going to be released. So a scapegoat is required. A sort of emotional hostage. Who better than one of Spain's national heroes. Then the bargaining can go like this. "Release the names or suspicious fingers will be pointed and insinuation and rumor will be forever linked with an individual who has no way of proving innocence and no reason to be linked with this case." I think it's disgusting! What do you think?

laverfan wrote:I understand the death threats because Fuentes's testimony may cause millions (or even billions) in prize money to be returned and the shame of such public cheating.

Such rewards were obtained by cheating in the first place, and are not rightfully the winners'.

The Spanish Guardia should provide adequate protection for the Good Doctor.

Oh Jm you should go on the stage !!!The Guardia will do anything for a price ...
Franco is alive and well !!!

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-last-word-truth-and-reconciliation-over-drugs-in-sport-i-will-take-the-truth-part-8477977.html

What do the doubters think?

from your linked article

the International Tennis Federation president Francesco Ricci Bitti pointed out Rafa Nadal has been tested "six or seven" times as he prepares to return. Nadal has never failed a test and there should be no reason to point any suspicious fingers but the insinuation and rumour is out there now and it will not go away unless that list of names is revealed.

You know what I think? That's an example of gutter press journalism at its very worst. The list of names referred to is not going to be released. So a scapegoat is required. A sort of emotional hostage. Who better than one of Spain's national heroes. Then the bargaining can go like this. "Release the names or suspicious fingers will be pointed and insinuation and rumor will be forever linked with an individual who has no way of proving innocence and no reason to be linked with this case." I think it's disgusting! What do you think?

A doctor who provided illegal doping services to athletes from many sports is on trial in Spain for "engandering safety" because he administered unlawful drugs. This is the result of a lengthy investigation which, so the Doctor says, has revealed to the investigating authorities that (as he also says) he provided services to footballers, tennis players, athletes, and other sportsmen and women as well as cyclists. The Spanish authorites seal the list and concentrate on cyclists. If you want another insight into the mindset of Spanish sporting authorities the National cycling body attempt to avoid the inevitable with an obvious doper such as Contador and set up a judicial hearing that lets him keep his TdF during the same time before beig overturned inevitably on appeal. Contador gains support from all over Spain, including vocal support from Nadal.

Elsewhere, it took the USADA to stop Dr. del Moral plying his trade in Valencia.

Recent history in Spain and other sports notwithstanding, the ITF are content to spout the same tired old mantra that an athlete who isn't caught by their pathetic regime tests is clean, you know, the Lance Armstrong defence. They can't say anything else, I agree, but they can certainly do something to make what they say more credible, namely improve their testing regime.

Do I think it's "disgusting" - damn right I do. Until the Spanish Courts reveal who is on that list and examine what happened properly all prominent Spanish sportsman and woman who participate in a sport which could benefit from doping is under justifiable suspicion because of: (a) of the Fuentes list; and, (b) we know that if they are doping the last people on earth who will tell us are the Spanish sporting authorities.

Spain is a very new democracy and the shadow of Franco's dictatorship still hangs over it culturally and politically. It's unfortunate and certainly not something you can fairly blame the vast majority of living Spaniards for - but that sort of difficulty in a Country's recent history often means that in it's efforts to look to a happier present and the future a country will rely a fair bit for national pride, sense of identity, and international prestiege on the performance of her elite athletes. If I am right that such is in part the situation with Spain she is not going to upset the Fuentes apple cart any time soon - it's as simple as that.

My response is therefore to be sceptical when I see Real Madrid or Barcelona, or the likes of Nadal and Ferrer hurtling around a tennis Court, or a Spanish cyclist doing well. For all your protestations I don't really see what else we should do. I'd be the same for any other country at any other time.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

laverfan wrote:I understand the death threats because Fuentes's testimony may cause millions (or even billions) in prize money to be returned and the shame of such public cheating.

Such rewards were obtained by cheating in the first place, and are not rightfully the winners'.

The Spanish Guardia should provide adequate protection for the Good Doctor.

Oh Jm you should go on the stage !!!The Guardia will do anything for a price ...
Franco is alive and well !!!

I probably should go on the stge - I'm funny enough But I think you mean LF in this case

Barry

I think your assessment of Spain as it is today is pretty nigh spot on.
They are a very nationalistic country and take pride in anything that brings world acclaim.. particularly their sportsman. They are loyalist and will stick by their own thick or thin. Nadal is practically a member of the Royal Family such is their love of him.. hard to imagine in the UK I know but...as I said in my previous post Franco is still very much in evidence in some quarters..particularly the Guardia who are a law unto themselves. When in Spain you do as the Spaniards
as you say boats dont get rocked here. They will protect what is theirs at all costs... I applaud them for that bit at least however a cover up of corruption is not new to the Spaniards again I can be quoted for saying they do not necessarily tell lies they just dont tell you the whole truth.

OK Jm we will have a doubles act Laver & Marx

If I were a clean Spanish athlete I'd be campaigning for the list to be made public. I'd be so sick to death of being unfairly smeared that I'd demand the list comes out and I'm shown not to be on it.

How do you know some haven´t tried.. The Spaniards wouldn´t make that known either it would put them under more pressure to reveal the list.

Haddie-nuff wrote:OK Jm we will have a doubles act Laver & Marx

I'm not taking second billing!!

Would you prefer Marx Fanny then

Haddie-nuff wrote:Would you prefer Marx Fanny then

Sometimes, depends on my mood.

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-last-word-truth-and-reconciliation-over-drugs-in-sport-i-will-take-the-truth-part-8477977.html

What do the doubters think?

from your linked article

the International Tennis Federation president Francesco Ricci Bitti pointed out Rafa Nadal has been tested "six or seven" times as he prepares to return. Nadal has never failed a test and there should be no reason to point any suspicious fingers but the insinuation and rumour is out there now and it will not go away unless that list of names is revealed.

You know what I think? That's an example of gutter press journalism at its very worst. The list of names referred to is not going to be released. So a scapegoat is required. A sort of emotional hostage. Who better than one of Spain's national heroes. Then the bargaining can go like this. "Release the names or suspicious fingers will be pointed and insinuation and rumor will be forever linked with an individual who has no way of proving innocence and no reason to be linked with this case." I think it's disgusting! What do you think?

Nonsense, im sorry but that is utter garbage.
You sound just like every single armstrong defender I have come across in the past 6 months.
The moment someone mentions nadal you dismiss it, that is the wrong attitude to have.

You clearly don't know enough about the subject and resort to attacking responses, don't get suckered in!

There cannot be any one sportsman who has or will not have the finger of suspicion pointed at them.. innocent or guilty. they will forever be smeared by the innuendos and accusations made. Unless such information is made public it will rumble on for years and for reasons I have already outlined I cannot see it happening. The fact that Rafa is Spanish is, imo, is the very reason he has been put in the spotlight and not revealing the list of those that are guilty is making him look more suspicious. My opinion, as you would doubtless expect, is that he is clean and I for one would be mighty disillusioned both by him and the sport in general if I found it not to be the case. In the meantime we can all only have our own opinions and suspicions as I really do not believe the truth will out in this case.

HE,

I am very much with BB. if your clean and the country you represent is rife with doping and cheating, would you not want to come forward and prove that not all the athletes from Spain cheat and set the bar and example to upcoming Spanish athletes? I know I would.

Are you suggesting then that it is ONLY Spanish athletes that are under suspicion.. if you are suggesting Rafa should .. has he not already taken legal procedings against the French magazine ??? or am I mistaken.
Who are you going to appeal to .. the Spanish Court.. who are the ones who are trying to cover up this scandal in the first place. And who says the country is RIFE with cheating and Doping as opposed to any other country. Fuentes suggests that he has treated all different athletes.. One being a boxer.. Im not sure I have heard of any Spanish boxers have you ???

Haddie-nuff wrote:How do you know some haven´t tried.. The Spaniards wouldn´t make that known either it would put them under more pressure to reveal the list.

I don't, but if I were getting smeared I'd make sure everyone knew I'd tried. I'd tell the media and openly call for demand publication.