Pro 12 teams and H-cup?

by Kingshu Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:16 am

There been a few examples of teams that can do well in the Pro 12 league, but just not match that in Europe, and I was wondering if anyone knew any reasons for this?

Ospreys are the best known example, 4 time Pro 12 champions, never really made the progress expected in Europe? The proved they can beat big teams in Knock-outs (Leinster away twice, Munster at home), and can do well in a league to get to play offs, yet in Europe have been disappointing.

Glasgow, is the latest to join, made play offs twice out of the three years its been in existance, currently 2nd in the table, yet have not made the knock outs in Europe, have had some wins but overall have disappointed in Europe.

Scarlets have been 5th (just missing play offs) for the last two years, yet haven't made much impact in Europe either?

Cardiff Blues, and (one year) Edinburgh, have done the opposite, and have had good runs in Europe, but were never challanging for the Leauge title.

Ulster, Munster and Leinster have been able to have good runs in both.

So why is it some good pro 12 teams can play well in the league but not in Europe?

by Guest Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:38 am

As much as we would hate to admit it, it must point to the league being of a lower standard, or effort level, or commitment, than Europe. To be good in one league but then not be very good in another points to two different 'level's. What else could the reason be?

Another example of this may be seen in football, sort of. In the Champions League you have the winners of, lets say for example, the Danish league. So, in Denmark this team is the dogs boll*x. Put them into the champions league with the cream of Europe and they're not up to much and don't progress. That's because the Danish league and the Champions league are at two different levels, arguably.

Where that example differs is that the Rabo teams face each other domestically and in Europe. So the question is: How can the Ospreys, for example, win the league by being better than Leinster over the course of the season and on the day of the final, but not do as well as them in Europe. That's the big question for me. The answer for me is that Leinster, while I'm sure trying their best in the Rabo final, have often had their eye on the main prize or have spent their energy chasing the main prize, and have been less motivated/more fatigued, etc. than the Ospreys who were knocked out of Europe much earlier.

I'm not saying that Leinster didn't bother, and I'm not saying that the Ospreys had an easy ride. It's just that priorities may have been different.

So, to answer the question: simply Leinster and Munster are much better than the other Rabo teams and can and do put their main effort into the HC. That allows them to progress further by winning more matches. Their prioritisation of Europe then makes the Pro 12 seem to be more evenly matched than it is, which then leads to questions about why the others in the league can't enjoy similar success.

by beshocked Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:39 am

Can't underestimate the strength of pools as a factor.

Edinburgh and Cardiff both flourished in the weakest pool in the Heineken Cup last season.

Ospreys have had difficult pools in the last 4 seasons. Most of them could have arguably labelled a pool of death.

Their "easiest" was last season and even that was tough.

Scarlets have not had it easy either.

by Guest Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:24 pm

That's a good point beshocked, which I didn't take into account. The luck (or bad luck) of the draw is something you can't really plan for.

by Brendan Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:44 pm

To be fair last year Scalets and Glasgow came second

To be fifth or sixth in the league really does expect you to get to the quarters.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:49 pm

Brendan wrote:To be fair last year Scalets and Glasgow came second

To be fifth or sixth in the league really does expect you to get to the quarters.

Breaking it down, I guess if we have 10 sides, the Jeff has 7, and the French have 7 then realistically we should get 3 or 4 sides into the QFs, and the English/French should get 2 or 3 each.

So I would say if you are outside of the RABO playoff spots then you shouldn't realisitcally have a shot at getting out of your group.

by beshocked Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:55 pm

Sometimes the ERC rankings can work for you or against you.

It's obvious that you want to avoid certain sides.

Ospreys have had to draw an English side in their pool.

They have to been unfortunate to draw two of the strongest in consecutive seasons.

At the moment in the AP there is quite clearly at top 3. It's no coincidence that those 3 sides are in the HC quarter finals too.

In the Top 14 - Toulon,Clermont and Montpellier are in the top 4. All 3 are in the HC quarter finals.

by beshocked Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:03 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Brendan wrote:To be fair last year Scalets and Glasgow came second

To be fifth or sixth in the league really does expect you to get to the quarters.

Breaking it down, I guess if we have 10 sides, the Jeff has 7, and the French have 7 then realistically we should get 3 or 4 sides into the QFs, and the English/French should get 2 or 3 each.

So I would say if you are outside of the RABO playoff spots then you shouldn't realisitcally have a shot at getting out of your group.

Depends if you are talking about the Pro12 as a whole or individual countries.

Glasgow were always going to struggle with Ulster,Saints and Castres. Edinburgh - next to no chance let's be honest.

Scarlets were never going to match Clermont or Leinster. Ospreys vs Leicester and Toulouse? Cardiff vs Montpellier and Toulon?

The Italians? No chance.

Connacht? No chance Ulster - the favourites got through. Munster - managed to get to the quarter finals by best runners up. Had realistic shot.

Leinster - narrowed out by Clermont

Basically only the 3 Irish sides were given realistic odds to get through to the quarter finals and rightly so.

by Kingshu Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:17 pm

For Scarlets and Glasgow, you would have expected one of them to make the knock out round over the last few years, and Ospreys as 4 time league Champions should have done better than 3 quarter finals.

Before we say its a weak league, I think we can add Castres, Racing Metro and Montpellier (untill this year) to the Pro 12 teams, as teams that have done well in the domestic League but failed to deliever on the European stage, no one says the Top 14 is a weak league?

These 4 teams have under delievered in Europe over the last 3 years, they can't all have had bad groups in that time.

by beshocked Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:23 pm

When though Kingshu? When you look at the pools Ospreys haven't stood a chance to be honest. Possibly last season they should have done better but still not easy.

Racing Metro messed up their opportunity last season in an easy pool. Montpellier took their chance this year. Castres have not had it easy at all.

by Kingshu Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:32 pm

Castres in 11/12, with Munster Scarlets and Saints maybe?

Racing Métro in 11/12 with Edinburgh, Blues and LI, should have done better.

Montpellier in 11/12 shouldn't have only had one win against leinster, Bath Glasgow

Ok they haven't had great pools and when they do get a runners up spot it's not one of the best runners up to go through, so I think it is fair to say they have been unlucky.

I expect next year that one of these 4 will show better than they have done so far, as they are still good sides, that should have made the knock outs before

by red_stag Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:35 pm

Kingshu wrote:I think we can add Castres, Racing Metro and Montpellier (untill this year) to the Pro 12 teams, as teams that have done well in the domestic League but failed to deliever on the European stage, no one says the Top 14 is a weak league?

Lets be fair this is their second year in Europe. In their first year they drew with Leinster, beat Bath and drew with Glasgow. This year they made it into the quarter finals.

My own feeling on this thread is that a lot of teams just don't take the Rabo seriously.

I was wondering why in gods name Munster played the way they did two weeks ago against Cardiff Blues. They just insisted on running everything and had a distinct lack of motivation and were soundly beaten. However 7 days later it paid off when they ran in 5 tries against Racing Metro in the "Miracle Match" needed to qualify for the quarter finals.

Many teams simply treat the Rabo as a chance to try new moves, bed in young players and rotate the squad. It is no reflection on how a team will do in the Heineken Cup.

by The Great Aukster Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:05 pm

red_stag wrote:I was wondering why in gods name Munster played the way they did two weeks ago against Cardiff Blues. They just insisted on running everything and had a distinct lack of motivation and were soundly beaten. However 7 days later it paid off when they ran in 5 tries against Racing Metro in the "Miracle Match" needed to qualify for the quarter finals.

Many teams simply treat the Rabo as a chance to try new moves, bed in young players and rotate the squad. It is no reflection on how a team will do in the Heineken Cup.

Eh? The Cardiff game was the 5th January and the Racing game was over two weeks later. Still they could have been targetting the Edinburgh game, but from what I've seen Munster have been trying to play that type of game all season - especially when Keatley is at the helm.
If teams are able to try a different style of rugby that should be seen as a strength of the Rabo not a weakness, they are in the entertainment business after all.

Kingshu - there are few teams that can compete on both fronts because they don't have the squad depth. The PRO12 is a strong league where a side has to have the quality of player if they are to compete in it. So Edinburgh probably looked at their group last season and decided to target Europe rather than the League - maybe Glasgow did the opposite? I'd expect Leinster to win the PRO12 this season because they will concentrate their resources on it rather than the Amlin.

by beshocked Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:28 pm

The Irish seem to have more confidence against the French and English clubs for whatever reason. Even Connacht have beaten Quins and Biarritz in the HC.

by Poorfour Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:58 pm

Looked at objectively, it's not so much certain teams underperforming in Europe as Irish teams overperforming. The English, French and Welsh can all point to strong performers in their "domestic" leagues who have not cut it in Europe in the last few years.

I suspect it comes down to how teams manage their best players. In the recent past the English teams and fans have repeatedly complained that they have to throw their all into the AP while the Irish can afford to be a little more selective. Griff's point about priorities is well-made, though I have also long felt that the O's (specifically) flatter to deceive a little - they have always looked a bit fragile when confronted by a strong forward and defensive effort.

What seems to be changing is the management of squads. The Irish teams are reaching a point where their best players are getting on a bit and I've heard fans complain that the academies aren't what they should be (perhaps evidenced by Mike Ross's story - on the Irish scrapheap until Quins picked him up, now the starting TH), so it's harder for them to field a strong squad if they have a couple of key injuries.

Meanwhile, the French aristocracy are getting their galactico-laden, 8m euro squads to gel - ample depth there. And England's emerging big 3 are Leicester, who've always known how to do squad depth, and two teams who've invested heavily in their academies and blooded a lot of new talent over the last few years.

p.s. 'shocked - the Connacht result was a bit of a freak result (how many times have you seen a ball hit a puddle and bounce 10 feet in the air?) in a howling gale at the Sportsground - confidence in the conditions, maybe, more than in playing the English

by Exiledinborders Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:49 pm

beshocked wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Brendan wrote:To be fair last year Scalets and Glasgow came second

To be fifth or sixth in the league really does expect you to get to the quarters.

Breaking it down, I guess if we have 10 sides, the Jeff has 7, and the French have 7 then realistically we should get 3 or 4 sides into the QFs, and the English/French should get 2 or 3 each.

So I would say if you are outside of the RABO playoff spots then you shouldn't realisitcally have a shot at getting out of your group.

Depends if you are talking about the Pro12 as a whole or individual countries.

Glasgow were always going to struggle with Ulster,Saints and Castres. Edinburgh - next to no chance let's be honest.

Scarlets were never going to match Clermont or Leinster. Ospreys vs Leicester and Toulouse? Cardiff vs Montpellier and Toulon?

The Italians? No chance.

Connacht? No chance Ulster - the favourites got through. Munster - managed to get to the quarter finals by best runners up. Had realistic shot.

Leinster - narrowed out by Clermontg

Basically only the 3 Irish sides were given realistic odds to get through to the quarter finals and rightly so.

You are right nobody expected any Rabo teams other than the big three Irish regions to perform. The question is why? Why are the Welsh regions weak? There is a lot of talk about money but why is there such a lack of support? For instance Cardiff Blues are the one team population in the city and surrounding area of 850,000. Compare this to Leicester area with a population of 480,000. Yet Leicester have much more support. Gloucester with a population of 125,000 has more support than any Welsh region.

Maybe Welsh should concentrate their resources in two teams with two development teams playing in Amlin.

by Brendan Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:32 pm

I do think that the irish expect to win all their home games and beat the lower teams away from home aswell.

Connacht were really upset that they didn't win either of their two games against Glaws last year though on form they probably should have.

The Welsh, scots and Italians are kind of if we are close its ok.

Also having to face a team from England and France in general for the irish mean a lower team. For the other countries it is a higher team.
It is a case of it is easier to stay at the top then to get there. If you are a top team like munster or leinster you don't have to get the top teams.

Sarries will not have to face the top team now and will do better in their groups as a result.

Cardiff and Biarittiz and Os will find it harder as they fall down teirs to get out of groups.

by Poorfour Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:15 pm

Depends what you mean by "lower", Brendan. If you mean "lower seeded", then yes, although the seedings are a bit of a joke given they reward qualification so 3 Irish provinces pick up points every year, and history, so Munster and Leinster are still trading off former glories.

If you're looking at more recent performance, Eurotable would suggest that only Ulster are currently in better form than their QF and main pool opposition.

by Hound_of_Harrow Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:17 pm

Although all teams can only select a maximum of 38 players for European competition, a huge difference is that Leinster, Munster and Ulster have sizeable first team squads (46 in the case of Munster), plus an A team squad*, as well as an Academy.

* It is those A team squads that make the difference. This enables the Irish teams to compete in both the HC and Rabo. They simply have more depth across all positions. This is partly to do with better funding and no salary cap.

But credit where it's due - those resources tend to be better coached and managed than their Rabo counterparts.

Just as a point of reference Quins have a first team squad of just 36 players, then the Academy below that - i.e. no A team.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:17 pm

Brendan wrote:I do think that the irish expect to win all their home games and beat the lower teams away from home aswell.

Connacht were really upset that they didn't win either of their two games against Glaws last year though on form they probably should have.

The Welsh, scots and Italians are kind of if we are close its ok.

Also having to face a team from England and France in general for the irish mean a lower team. For the other countries it is a higher team.
It is a case of it is easier to stay at the top then to get there. If you are a top team like munster or leinster you don't have to get the top teams.

Sarries will not have to face the top team now and will do better in their groups as a result.

Cardiff and Biarittiz and Os will find it harder as they fall down teirs to get out of groups.

Sarries are very unlikely to climb too far this year. Even if they win the HC they would only be Tier 2 at best. They will still be behind Northampton for example even if they win the comp.

Leinster, Toulouse and Biarritz will still be in the top tier despite being in the Amlin (although Biarritz may well not qualify for the HC next year)

Munster may stay up there. Joined by Clermont, Ulster and Toulon.

Contenders for tier 2 are Leicester, Cardiff, Northampton, Quins (who would be tier 1 with a comp win) Perpignan, Stade Feancais, Wasps and Sarries. (some of those teams won't qualify allowing the others in)

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:27 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Although all teams can only select a maximum of 38 players for European competition, a huge difference is that Leinster, Munster and Ulster have sizeable first team squads (46 in the case of Munster), plus an A team squad*, as well as an Academy.

* It is those A team squads that make the difference. This enables the Irish teams to compete in both the HC and Rabo. They simply have more depth across all positions. This is partly to do with better funding and no salary cap.

But credit where it's due - those resources tend to be better coached and managed than their Rabo counterparts.

Just as a point of reference Quins have a first team squad of just 36 players, then the Academy below that - i.e. no A team.

* There is no A team squad.

Leinster have 40 players total in the senior squad. + academy. That's it. 2 Academy players in the 38 man HC squad and therefore 4 senior players not in it.

Have a look at the 23 man squads for the HC and B&I weekends. There are obviously 23 in each. plus a few guys held back from the A game to cover possible injuries in the HC team.

Most of the lads in the A team are Academy.

There are 8 year 1 guys in the academy (rarely used)

10 in 2nd year and 6 in 3rd year.

Year 2 and 3 guys would play the Rabo and B&I.

Year 1 guys just left school and only exceptional ones (Like Robbie Henshaw in Connacht or Luke Fitz in the 06/07 season) would get much game time.

by Brendan Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:28 pm

Poorfour wrote:Depends what you mean by "lower", Brendan. If you mean "lower seeded", then yes, although the seedings are a bit of a joke given they reward qualification so 3 Irish provinces pick up points every year, and history, so Munster and Leinster are still trading off former glories.

If you're looking at more recent performance, Eurotable would suggest that only Ulster are currently in better form than their QF and main pool opposition.

Munster may be living off former glory but they have still got to the quarters each year expect two years ago when they got to the Amlin Semi.

If you get through to the Quarter each year you will go up. this is only sarries second year in the quarters. Quinns have had one quarter and an amlin win and one Amlin quarter. If you win you go/stay up the seeding.

Edinburgh got 7pts last year, that is more then the other 3 years put together. Tigers have two 2pt years resulting in them not being top seeds.

Quinns got 6 for winning the amlin.

If you do well you move up. Os have struggled with hard groups but as a result they have fallen down the seeding.

The only reason that connacht were third seed was due to their semi final amlin year.

But once you fall down it is hard to get back up.

I think if Blues went into the Amlin for a year they could get a semi and improve their pts. otherwise they could end up with 1-2pt each year.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:34 pm

The Rankings are not perfect, but the main reason is that they reward performances 4 years ago with the same points as last year. There should be a sliding scale, but it only comes into play when two teams are tied on ranking points.

by Poorfour Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:52 pm

Except that the ranking points for group position create a bit of a virtuous/vicious circle.

Maintaining a high ranking relies as much on picking up points every year as it does on going a long way in the competition. If you qualify every year, then as the current system stands you get points every year, and more points means a better ranking, which means more chance of a group where you can do well, which means more chance of high ranking points...

Three of the Tier 1 seeds are guaranteed their places each year, which is higher than you'd expect if that weren't a factor. It's not the only influence, but it's a distorting one.

by debaters1 Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:52 pm

Wow, Yes Munster are living on past glories and if my maths is any good have to go deep in the comp to retain a top seeding. However, to say leinster are living on past glories, winnig the competition 3 out of 4 years, is not a past glory, it is a very current glory. However, they got screwed by being drawn with the top seed team in disguise in Clermont. If and when they get to the semi's I think they gain promotion to a top seeding but I'll have to look at the permeatations properly.

by Brendan Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:55 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:The Rankings are not perfect, but the main reason is that they reward performances 4 years ago with the same points as last year. There should be a sliding scale, but it only comes into play when two teams are tied on ranking points.

This is what i was getting at. the teams that are doing well in seeding are getting results. the one that are lower down have 2 bad years.

It is hard at the bottom though. I think treviso would fancy their chances if they were a 3rd seed team. Ulster have found it though when they were a 3rd teir as they usually got to good teams that they could pass both. This year they got a decent group and walked it. They should have got 6 from 6 but for complacency.

If connacht go into the Amlin they will be a second seed and would expect to get out of the group regardless of who they got. And that is the key, they would expect to, rather then the dargons who seem to be well we tried but just missed out in each game.

by beshocked Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:00 pm

Brendan

Connacht expected to beat Gloucester at Kingsholm? That's a joke right? You can't be serious so it must be.

You're absolutely right. Saracens should find it easy against Ulster and potentially Toulon if they beat Ulster because they are such poor sides aren't they? It's fluke that they are topping the Pro12 and Top 14 currently.

You fail to mention that in the last two seasons Saracens have had to face Clermont.They manage to avoid them for once. About time to be honest.

Oh and there was the 2010-11 group of death as well with Leinster,Clermont,Saracens and Racing Metro. In that season Leinster became HC champions,Saracens English Champions and Clermont were the French Champions (2009-10)

Who you face makes a huge difference to the rankings and doesn't give a fair reflection of the strength of the sides.

E.g. Leinster getting paired with Clermont scuppered their HC chances this season.

by Hound_of_Harrow Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:03 pm

Fair enough Jen, Leinster don't have an A team squad. As Munster & Ulster do, I figured Leinster did too.

by Brendan Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:08 pm

not realy much would change if you did it over 2 or 3 years. the top 2 teams in each group would more or less be the same and you would still have to beat the team ranked above or below you to get out of the group.

I am sure that Clermount, ulster, Sarries, Tigers, Toulon, Quinns really struggled when they faced the top seed because they weren't ranked as high as the Teir one sides. If anything it drives them to do better.

Biarittiz who are always used as the team who are over ranked have got a HC final, HC quarter and Amlin winners.
Munster have 2 HC semis, Amlin semi and a Hc quarter (where they finished top ranked side from the pools)

teams still have to compete against same sides.

by Brendan Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:18 pm

beshocked wrote:Brendan

Connacht expected to beat Gloucester at Kingsholm? That's a joke right? You can't be serious so it must be.

You're absolutely right. Saracens should find it easy against Ulster and potentially Toulon if they beat Ulster because they are such poor sides aren't they? It's fluke that they are topping the Pro12 and Top 14 currently.

You fail to mention that in the last two seasons Saracens have had to face Clermont.They manage to avoid them for once. About time to be honest.

Oh and there was the 2010-11 group of death as well with Leinster,Clermont,Saracens and Racing Metro. In that season Leinster became HC champions,Saracens English Champions and Clermont were the French Champions (2009-10)

Who you face makes a huge difference to the rankings and doesn't give a fair reflection of the strength of the sides.

E.g. Leinster getting paired with Clermont scuppered their HC chances this season.

no it is not a joke. The reason Irish teams do well is they expect to win.

Glaws were about 8-9th in the league at the time so were Connacht. Connacht would have gone there looking for the win therefore they expeccted to win.
If they hadn't of expected to win they would have gone there expecting a LBP like they did against Quinns.

Sarries might of had Leinster and Clermount but they still finished bottom. They were english champions that year yet got beat by Leinster and Clermount and finished bottom. Quinns did much better last year.

the reason that Clermount have struggled in the HC is yes part to facing Leinster but it is also down to not beating Leinster. In the year that they were in the same group clermonut missed a chace to deny Leinster the LBP and in the quarter they missed loads of chances to win.
Last year they just couldn't finish Leinster off either.
This year suprise suprise they take their chance and they roll into the quarters with a game to spare

We have to face 1.5 top teams every year in your group.

France have 4 england have 4 ireland have 3 and wales have 1. total 12
that means you will have to face a top team and do better then them to make the quarters.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:23 pm

Brendan wrote:
beshocked wrote:Brendan

Connacht expected to beat Gloucester at Kingsholm? That's a joke right? You can't be serious so it must be.

You're absolutely right. Saracens should find it easy against Ulster and potentially Toulon if they beat Ulster because they are such poor sides aren't they? It's fluke that they are topping the Pro12 and Top 14 currently.

You fail to mention that in the last two seasons Saracens have had to face Clermont.They manage to avoid them for once. About time to be honest.

Oh and there was the 2010-11 group of death as well with Leinster,Clermont,Saracens and Racing Metro. In that season Leinster became HC champions,Saracens English Champions and Clermont were the French Champions (2009-10)

Who you face makes a huge difference to the rankings and doesn't give a fair reflection of the strength of the sides.

E.g. Leinster getting paired with Clermont scuppered their HC chances this season.

no it is not a joke. The reason Irish teams do well is they expect to win.

Glaws were about 8-9th in the league at the time so were Connacht. Connacht would have gone there looking for the win therefore they expeccted to win.
If they hadn't of expected to win they would have gone there expecting a LBP like they did against Quinns.

Sarries might of had Leinster and Clermount but they still finished bottom. They were english champions that year yet got beat by Leinster and Clermount and finished bottom. Quinns did much better last year.

the reason that Clermount have struggled in the HC is yes part to facing Leinster but it is also down to not beating Leinster. In the year that they were in the same group clearmonut missed a chace to deny Leinster the LBP and in the quarter they missed loads of chances to win.
Last year they just couldn't finish Leinster off either.

We have to face 1.5 top teams every year in your group.

France have 3 england have 3 ireland have 3 and wales have 1. total 10
that means you will have to face a top team and do better then them to make the quarters.

Last year I dont think it was a case of Clermont not finishing us off it was actually the other way round. Sexton missed a penalty then we gave away a stupid penalty on our own lineout in their half. We should have comfortably won but instead we let them back into the game.

by Brendan Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:26 pm

but leinster still won. last time Leinster went to the south of France and lests not forget it was the south of France they got beat well by toulouse. Clermount should have won that game as they were at "home"

by Brendan Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:29 pm

Beshoked Leinster if they had picked up the 4tbp that they should of in the group they would have been in the quarters playing Quinns. they scuppered their own, nothing to do with clermount. Leinster are known for dropping pts in gruops weather it be Irish, or Racing. if they had the 4tbp they would not of had to hope munster failed

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:02 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Fair enough Jen, Leinster don't have an A team squad. As Munster & Ulster do, I figured Leinster did too.

You're missing the point Hound. There is no such thing as this "A squad" anywhere but in you're head. Not Leinster, Not Munster, Not Ulster, Not Connacht.

Munster normally have a few more players (Like maybe 5 or so) but they tend to have a lot of "squad fillers" perhaps that is what you mean? None of the others do. Connacht had less than the HC squad up until this year.

I just used Leinster because I know the facts and figures off the top of my head. I would have to look the others up

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:05 pm

beshocked wrote:Brendan

Connacht expected to beat Gloucester at Kingsholm? That's a joke right? You can't be serious so it must be.

Ah here! Not this again.

He never said Kingsholm and Gloucester only won with a last minute try in the sportsground in a game where Connacht were in charge most of the time.

by Hound_of_Harrow Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:25 pm

Jen, Ulster have the Ravens (A squad) and Munster have an A squad.

Anyway, the main point I was trying to make was that the Provinces undoubtedly get more out of their squads in both competitions than the other teams in both the HC & Rabo.

thumbsup

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:39 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Jen, Ulster have the Ravens (A squad) and Munster have an A squad.

Anyway, the main point I was trying to make was that the Provinces undoubtedly get more out of their squads in both competitions than the other teams in both the HC & Rabo.

Again. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FECKEN A SQUAD.

The ravens. Munster A, Leinster A, Connacht A, are all made out of the EXISTING senior squad + Academy.

Are you trying to wind me up or do you just not believe me? Name ANY of the players in these imaginary "squads"

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:41 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:the main point I was trying to make was that the Provinces undoubtedly get more out of their squads in both competitions than the other teams in both the HC & Rabo.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
Although all teams can only select a maximum of 38 players for European competition, a huge difference is that Leinster, Munster and Ulster have sizeable first team squads (46 in the case of Munster), plus an A team squad*, as well as an Academy.

* It is those A team squads that make the difference.

by VinceWLB Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:51 pm

Last year Ospreys were awful in December/January, if the competition was played in a block (as it should be) around April/May they would have walked through their pool.

Glasgow were depleted by injuries, not really fair to blame them.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:34 pm

I promise I'll shut up after this one. Smile

Although all teams can only select a maximum of 38 players for European competition, a huge difference is that Leicester, Saracens and Northampton have sizeable first team squads (46 in the case of Leicester), plus an LV Cup squad*, as well as an Academy.

* It is those LV Cup squads that make the difference. This enables the English teams to compete in both the HC and Premiership. They simply have more depth across all positions. This is partly to do with better funding and no salary crap.

But credit where it's due - those resources tend to be better coached and managed than their Premiership counterparts.

Just as a point of reference Connacht have a first team squad of just 36 players, then the Academy below that - i.e. no LV Cup team

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:53 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:I promise I'll shut up after this one.

Although all teams can only select a maximum of 38 players for European competition, a huge difference is that Leicester, Saracens and Northampton have sizeable first team squads (46 in the case of Leicester), plus an LV Cup squad*, as well as an Academy.

* It is those LV Cup squads that make the difference. This enables the English teams to compete in both the HC and Premiership. They simply have more depth across all positions. This is partly to do with better funding and no salary crap.

But credit where it's due - those resources tend to be better coached and managed than their Premiership counterparts.

Just as a point of reference Connacht have a first team squad of just 36 players, then the Academy below that - i.e. no LV Cup team

Perhaps the Irish teams in the B&I cup need to change their names.

by Hound_of_Harrow Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:11 am

Nice try Jen. Why so touchy?

thumbsup

I'm not on a WUM, and praised the Provinces (and IRFU, as they are in control of the amount of games players can participate in) for the way they go about things.

In my book, the IRFU are managing the welfare of players better than most other unions.

Sometimes people see only what they want to in a comment that tries to cover several points.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:56 am

Jen, calm down, young fella, Hound defo no WUM and not trying to wind you up - I'll have no doubt that he'll be happy with a simple correction. His general point about squad management and getting the most out of your resources was well made.

I thought I'd take a look at Exe to broaden the picture - I believe that we have a senior squad of 41 players, with a fairly large academy below that (in which I am including the likes of Will Carrick-Smith, Tom Cowan-Dickie, Lloyd Fairbrother who moved beyond U20 in the last year or two, as well as the current crop of U20 players), and then we also have access to the U18 set-up (which includes, Ivybridge, Truro, Exeter & Bicton colleges, plus a short handful of other (mostly fee-paying) rugby-oriented schools) and to Exeter uni rugby (which happens to have a reasonable crop of youngsters at the moment).

So on the face of it, that sounds not dissimilar to Leinster, although it is clear that the average Leinster player is considerably better than the average Exeter player - given the difference in salary structure that I would imagine (ie not a proven fact) that exists between the two sides, that is also to be expected.

No gripes here, it's just a series of facts of life. It's perhaps not a valid comparison, Leinster are 3-times European champions and regularly in the playoffs for the league; Exe crave a top six AP slot at best, and have racked up one year's worth experience in the elite Euro comp

Chief

by beshocked Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:09 am

Brendan expecting to win is different to believing you will win.

Yes Quins did much better last season in a weaker group.

Not weak but weaker than one of the toughest groups ever in the HC.

They still failed to qualify for the HC quarter final though.

Do you think this group - Quins,Toulouse,Connacht,Gloucester is stronger than Leinster,Clermont,Saracens,Racing Metro?

4 try bonus points? That was always going to be a tough task.

It's pretty obvious that Leinster struggled because they had to play Clermont x2. In another pool they would likely have qualified.

Vince WLB sounds like a pretty poor excuse to me.

by Kingshu Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:25 am

Jen was just trying to make the point that the provinces do not have A-teams, on top of the squads, something it seamed hard to get through so made his point with scarism.

The 'A' teams entered in BandI cup are about the same as used in the LV cup, fringe squad players needing gametime, acamady players, and maybe a senior player coming back from injury.

Aviva teams don't have extra players for LV cup they use the players that don't usually start, same as Provinces.

it is Prob better that the Provinces label these as 'A' teams, rather than calling them the first team, so fans know what to expect, and any wins losses don't count toward the senior team.

ie if Ulster/Tigers lost 2 BandI/LV cup games in a row, and the first XV were playing in the league next, you wouldn't say they were a team out of form, these two loses should not reflect on the senior team.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:08 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Nice try Jen. Why so touchy?

I'm not on a WUM, and praised the Provinces (and IRFU, as they are in control of the amount of games players can participate in) for the way they go about things.

In my book, the IRFU are managing the welfare of players better than most other unions.

Sometimes people see only what they want to in a comment that tries to cover several points.

Hi Hound. Not touchy just frustrated at not getting the point over. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Dutch civil servant about 30 years ago.

It started with him saying " I'll send over to Newcastle for your papers" When I told him he would have to send to Dublin not Newcastle, He told me that all of the papers for the UK were in Newcastle and that it didn't matter which part of the UK I was in etc.etc.

As you can imagine that was a bit of a red rag to a bull for an Irish man. (especially at that time) So rather than lose my cool, and get into people dying etc. I had my Dutch speaking girlfriend give him a potted history of the Republic of Ireland and all the reasons why he would find nothing to do with me in Newcastle or any other part of the UK.

He had a big eureka moment went "ah I see" and the meeting ended with him shaking my hand, smiling, and saying. "so........I'll send to Newcastle for your papers straight away.

Thankfully he retired a few months later and it all got sorted out.

Anyway..... I'm sorry if I offended you, and you are correct I did zone in on one aspect of your post rather than the main thrust.

Just like I zoned in on Beshocked's perceived Connacht bashing though it was only part of his post. (He has form though, unlike you) Smile

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Jen, calm down, young fella, Hound defo no WUM and not trying to wind you up - I'll have no doubt that he'll be happy with a simple correction. His general point about squad management and getting the most out of your resources was well made.

Firstly Asbo. Thanks for the young fellah there. Although I suppose it's not too big a deal from a 100 yearold. Wink

I was calm enough, just a little exasperated that I was not getting my point over. I'm sure (now) that he wasn't trying to wind me up, so sorry about that.

Kingshu wrote:Jen was just trying to make the point that the provinces do not have A-teams, on top of the squads, something it seamed hard to get through so made his point with scarism.

The 'A' teams entered in BandI cup are about the same as used in the LV cup, fringe squad players needing gametime, acamady players, and maybe a senior player coming back from injury.

Not sure about the scarism, Smile

I wasn't trying to scare anyone. but that's basically it. thumbsup

by Brendan Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:30 pm

The other thing that people forget is there are certain things yoou have to learn to be succesfull in Euro competions.

Like I have said before when English football clubs were exiled for five years they did terrible the first few years back getting beaten by teams that on paper were no as good.

South Africa struggled when they returned to international rugby and were luck to get wins against france and New Zeland.

Teams like the Irish proviences know what they need to win and get out of groups. I think some teams don't know what it takes to win in europe as just being a good team is not enough.

by beshocked Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:02 pm

Brendan I agree to a certain extent but why have the Irish got that and the Welsh,Italians and Scots not?

The HC has been a Anglo-Irish-French bun fight with the other countries not getting a look in. Why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heineken_Cup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_Heineken_Cup_pool_stage

This HC quarter finals is a Anglo-Irish-French affair. Why don't the other countries step up to the plate?

by **rodders** Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:08 pm

beshocked wrote:Brendan I agree to a certain extent but why have the Irish got that and the Welsh,Italians and Scots not?

South Africans ..... Very Happy

....

by Jenifer McLadyboy Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:33 pm

rodders wrote:
beshocked wrote:Brendan I agree to a certain extent but why have the Irish got that and the Welsh,Italians and Scots not?

South Africans ..... ....

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