Six Nations: Wales - Ireland Post Match Discussion

First topic message reminder :

Wales 22 - Ireland 30

Wales:
Tries - Cuthbert (47 min), Halfpenny (58 min), Mitchell (75 min)
Convs - Halfpenny 2/3
Pens - Halfpenny 1/1

Ireland:
Tries - Zebo (10 min), Healy (23 min), O'Driscoll (42 min)
Convs - Sexton 3/3
Pens - Sexton 3/3


Match Stats:
http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/match/133782.html

WHY START WITH HOOK? the game changed with BIGGAR on the park.

this was his first 6 nations game, and apart from the charge down, he played well.

he gave ball to the centres, who were rubbish, maybe thats where we need hook.

the both wings were dire in defence.

jiffy and martin in commentary were out of order calling for hook to come on in the second half, they are both pals of hook and shout his corner, HOOK HAS HAD HIS CHANCE MANY TIMES.

BIGGAR has had only 11 caps, and the cry 'ah, but can he do it on the big stage?' well lets see. never played behind a first rate welsh team so far in his career.

Biggardid not kick any ball away, passed accurately, defended well and made some good switch passes to get the middle going , and long passes at the right time.

LOOK ELSEWHERE TO THROW THE BLAME, ITS NOT ON THIS GUY.

Thomond wrote:Les Kiss is in charge of our defence, it's his scheme, which I don't have a massive deal with, in a game that isn't as open as the second half was it should yield positive results.

We have the personnel to get the most out of it.

The rosary beads are already out for Mike Ross. Is anyone willing to do a dela with the devil?

Les Kiss is the attack coach. Anthony Foley is the defence coach.

Notch wrote:He could be back but probably not until Round 3 or 4. He may just miss out on Ulster vs Opsreys next week, but has an outside chance of making that one.

Notch how long do you think Fitzpatrick can realistically last for next week if we need him. Court has to be on the bench for it, the English scrum looks massive as ever

Golden wrote:

Notch wrote:He could be back but probably not until Round 3 or 4. He may just miss out on Ulster vs Opsreys next week, but has an outside chance of making that one.

Notch how long do you think Fitzpatrick can realistically last for next week if we need him. Court has to be on the bench for it, the English scrum looks massive as ever

I don't know, I would say longer than 50 minutes is a big ask. With all the injuries he's had this season I can't remember if he's even played longer than that in any game this season! Realistically we need Mike Ross to be fit.

Agree on Court for the bench as our reserve loosehead, not that Killer did much wrong when he came on. It's a scrum thing. Kilcoyne could be used well against Scotland and Italy.

gavstar wrote:WHY START WITH HOOK? the game changed with BIGGAR on the park.

this was his first 6 nations game, and apart from the charge down, he played well.

he gave ball to the centres, who were rubbish, maybe thats where we need hook.

the both wings were dire in defence.

jiffy and martin in commentary were out of order calling for hook to come on in the second half, they are both pals of hook and shout his corner, HOOK HAS HAD HIS CHANCE MANY TIMES.

BIGGAR has had only 11 caps, and the cry 'ah, but can he do it on the big stage?' well lets see. never played behind a first rate welsh team so far in his career.

Biggardid not kick any ball away, passed accurately, defended well and made some good switch passes to get the middle going , and long passes at the right time.

LOOK ELSEWHERE TO THROW THE BLAME, ITS NOT ON THIS GUY.

The simple answer is that we lack creativity.Despite his shortcomings this is one thing that Hook brings to the party.Two dull centres outside a dull fly half with two lumps on the wing is not the stuff of dreams.

Thomond wrote:

Golden wrote:I know these sites are seldom right but espn says earls didnt kick once didnt pass once, ran twice and only made 4 metres! That's shocking

Although I suppose we weren't exactly putting the phases together in the second half.

He was killed for the first Welsh try but was relatively solid tackling besides that. He can't start next week though, how long is Marshall out for? Would he be back for some of the 6N?

Golden;That is ridiculous to be criticising Earls for attacking display, the whole time he was on the pitch was Ireland defending.

THomond pretty sure that Marshall is out for another few weeks, I would start McSharry at 12 next week if D'arcy is out.

Just on Conor Murray, despite the yellow card, I though he was excellent, especially in the first half obviously. He has really come on this season.
He seems to be growing into the player that he showed he could potentially be when he first broke on the scene. Completely outplayed Philips
today, and I know Philips hasn't been at his best, but there was a gulf between the two of them today, and it is the reverse of what it was at the
World Cup when they played against each other.

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:

Golden wrote:I know these sites are seldom right but espn says earls didnt kick once didnt pass once, ran twice and only made 4 metres! That's shocking

Although I suppose we weren't exactly putting the phases together in the second half.

He was killed for the first Welsh try but was relatively solid tackling besides that. He can't start next week though, how long is Marshall out for? Would he be back for some of the 6N?

Golden;That is ridiculous to be criticising Earls for attacking display, the whole time he was on the pitch was Ireland defending.

THomond pretty sure that Marshall is out for another few weeks, I would start McSharry at 12 next week if D'arcy is out.

and down a man for 20 minutes of that. Interesting that Earls nearly made as many tackles as BOD did in his 36 mins on the pitch (BOD 11/2 and Earls 9/2).

BOD sublime, Overall clinical display. Two in a row now...oh Court will not be considered and why should he.

Because of who we're playing, they have a great scrum and probably the best tighthead in the tournament in Dan Cole.

Kilcoyne is better and added to the scrum when he came on.

My tuppence:

Healy - 7/10
Best - 8
Ross - 6.5
McCarthy - 7
Ryan - 6
POM - 7.5
SOB - 7
Heaslip - 6
Murray - 7.5
Sexton - 7
Zebo - 7
D'arcy - 6.5
BOD - 8
Gilroy - 5.5
Kearney - 5.5

I've no problems with Kilcoyne, I just think if the scrum is a concern we need our best scrummaging props in the 23.

I just don't think he is a better scrummager than kilcoyne this year

I can't really argue against that because... I fundamentally disagree based on what I've seen of both players.

Fair enough..so there you go

Notch wrote:I've no problems with Kilcoyne, I just think if the scrum is a concern we need our best scrummaging props in the 23.

In fairness to Kilcoyne, he did quite well when he came on.


As much as Earls had a shocker for the Cuthbert try, I reckon Kidney will choose him at 12 if Darcy is injured for next week. And I reckon that he will be fine, its extremely hard for him to come in to the 12 channel have trained at 15 all week and know the exact defensive positioning, he really needs to be allowed stick to the one position. Unlikely to happen though.

DOD wrote:I just don't think he is a better scrimmage than kilcoyne this year

Hahahahaha well you are probably alone there mate. Kilcoyne isn't half the scrummager court is (on the loose head side) that doesn't mean kilcoyne isn't a fantastic player but is more testament to how well big Tom is playing. The England match would suit big Tom better than killer. But I feel that kilcoyne will be on the bench as he is a beast in the loose, like Healy he is basically an extra back row who will tackle until his arms fall off, which is fair enough.

Yeah no doubt Kilcoyne is better in the loose and is an impact player in his own right, but I know when it comes to scrum time who has had the best track record this year.

I'd be fairly delighted to have Court for the game against the Ospreys on Friday, but it would be the smart move to bring him back into the fold. Doubt he will be.

theslosty wrote:My tuppence:

Healy - 7/10
Best - 8
Ross - 6.5
McCarthy - 7
Ryan - 6
POM - 7.5
SOB - 7
Heaslip - 6
Murray - 7.5
Sexton - 7
Zebo - 7
D'arcy - 6.5
BOD - 8
Gilroy - 5.5
Kearney - 5.5

I think you have Gilroy, Kearney and Heaslip too low. All three were very much key to the defensive effort, and O'Brien too high. He made quite a few mistakes in the second half that were costly.

Anyone else notice Radge didn't get his customary 2 minutes at the end to up his cap count???

Thought Best was unlucky to be carded, but it was coming, as was Murray... Didn't see why he got it?

Killer did alright, but after seeing Cole tear Ryan Grant apart today I'd much rather Court on the bench. He offers just as much in the loose as Kilcoyne and will shore up our scrum if we're struggling. Also pray to almighty father that Ross is fit... Deccie Fitz versus Marler for 60 mins brings me out in a cold sweat!

Yeah, Mike Ross is somewhat necessary.

Don't really care who starts next week, I'm going to the game so am determined to enjoy it!

Biggar had a poor 1st half most did bar a few but very good 2nd half, still think the initial selection by Howley was poor and why do we insist it seems on playing catch up rugby.

Going forward and with next week in mind this is the team I would pick

James (Should have started todat Jenkins not shadow of himself)
Hibbard (Rees if not fit he was better than Owens)
Jones
Coombs (Deserves to keep the shirt)
Evans
Warburton ( We all know he will start)
Faletau
Tipuric

Phillips
Biggar (Give the guy a run of games)

North
Roberts
JD
Halfpenny (Cuthbert scored but was at fault for Zebo try)

Byrne

BelfastDickVet wrote:

DOD wrote:I just don't think he is a better scrimmage than kilcoyne this year

Hahahahaha well you are probably alone there mate. Kilcoyne isn't half the scrummager court is (on the loose head side) that doesn't mean kilcoyne isn't a fantastic player but is more testament to how well big Tom is playing. The England match would suit big Tom better than killer. But I feel that kilcoyne will be on the bench as he is a beast in the loose, like Healy he is basically an extra back row who will tackle until his arms fall off, which is fair enough.

Disagree , Court is very ordinary without Afoa playing. Luckily the management disagree with you.

Apparently everyone should make next week. Darcy is having a scan but they aren't too worried about anyone

Going to the game notch?.
Didn't think you'd be bothered considering you don't like the six nations

Any doubts about Howley as a selector have been answered with this match. The momentum of the game went very much as I expected it (a lot of our better players were on the bench), although I felt Wales could sneak it -- we blew numerous try-scoring chances in the second half.

Tipuric, Owens, Lloyd W, Paul J, Hook -- all should have started. I'd have started with PJ, Ownes, Adam, Kohn, Evans, Tips,Warbs and Fal, with Looyd and Hook, 1/2p on wing instead of Cuthbert, Byrne at FB and North on other wing, with SW with JD in midfield.

Shingler has athleticism and pace but lacks physicality at the breakdown, and Ireland were always going to get the upper hand with him there.

The try-scoring chances were missed because we have centres who can't do the basics, especially pass, and Cuthbert once again reveals his rawness in defence and lack of vision to pass when it's on. The back line is unbalanced, with too many bashers and little guile, footwork and distribution skills. We will never beat better teams unless the players improve their basic skills (no sign of that) or we develop other players and give them a chance.

It'll be interesting to see who Howley picks for France. Loyally sticking to out of form players, many of whom lack the basic skills for the position they play, is not getting us anywhere. On that score, I have no idea what Tavis Knoyle is doing in the squad -- Gareth Davies (even though he often plays second fiddle) is a more worthy 3rd choice.

Osprey,

I thought Cooombs had great game and wouldn'y start Kohn anyway, Owens was worse than Rees in the linout but better in the loose.

I honestly don't see why so many Welsh fans want to replace Biggar so quickly? He was good, apart from the chargedown and played well with ball in hand and kicking.

Roberts and Davies were the problems today, Doc looked unfit and couldn't break the gainline and Foxy passed so many balls off the park it wasn't funny by the end. But he was alone in defence on so many occasions as well. Cuthbert was shocking in defence and bar one decent line on Earls who was just on the field, nowhere in attack.

If I was Wales I'd go for:

James, Hibbard, Jones
Coombes, Evans
Warburton, Faletau, Tipuric

Phillips, Biggar
Hook, Davies
North, Byrne, Halfpenny

I agree -- I thought Coombs did well. I'd have picked a big front 5 with the two real second rows to start, to balance the lighter choices of 2 opensides (Tips, Warb) in the back row. I hope Hibbard is back next week, but Wales will go nowhere with Howley in charge -- he is too inexperienced to be a no. 1 of an int team.

Problem with putting Hook in the centre is his tackling.He can scrape by at 10 but is exposed at centre.

theslosty wrote:My tuppence:

Healy - 7/10
Best - 8
Ross - 6.5
McCarthy - 7
Ryan - 6
POM - 7.5
SOB - 7
Heaslip - 6
Murray - 7.5
Sexton - 7
Zebo - 7
D'arcy - 6.5
BOD - 8
Gilroy - 5.5
Kearney - 5.5

I'd give SOB 9/10. 23 tackles, carries and even threw into the lineout. He was immense today. Also Ross deserves an 8 for the scrum effort. Can't argue with anything else. Maybe BOD 8.5. He came up with some crucial plays.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Problem with putting Hook in the centre is his tackling.He can scrape by at 10 but is exposed at centre.

From an outsiders point of view, I think Wales need some more creativity. If Henson wasn't a lunatic he would be ideal.

profitius wrote:

theslosty wrote:My tuppence:

Healy - 7/10
Best - 8
Ross - 6.5
McCarthy - 7
Ryan - 6
POM - 7.5
SOB - 7
Heaslip - 6
Murray - 7.5
Sexton - 7
Zebo - 7
D'arcy - 6.5
BOD - 8
Gilroy - 5.5
Kearney - 5.5

I'd give SOB 9/10. 23 tackles, carries and even threw into the lineout. He was immense today. Also Ross deserves an 8 for the scrum effort. Can't argue with anything else. Maybe BOD 8.5. He came up with some crucial plays.

SOB was good today but I still feel he should be at 6.

profitius wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Problem with putting Hook in the centre is his tackling.He can scrape by at 10 but is exposed at centre.

From an outsiders point of view, I think Wales need some more creativity. If Henson wasn't a lunatic he would be ideal.

Sadly you are bang on the button.Where is the Orange One when you need him?

After the controversy during the week about his selection, I thought POM had a fine game today. Henry also played well when he came on.

Biggar is not a 'dull fly half' as taffeastbourne says.

hook would not have given us more ball, would not have speeded up

phillips when we did get the ball, and would not have improved the dire

performance of the centres today.

this is biggars first six nations. hes had 11 caps , hes 23, lets give

him as many games as the rest of our 10's have had before we knock

another 10 out. mature 2nd half says a lot about him. jiffy should know

better saying at half time put hook on, why? the 10 today was not the

problem and not the solution. the game changed WITH biggar still on the

park. these hook pushers have short memories . we have to go forward.

We have to stick with Biggar for now butr I suspect Howley will drop him in a 'see I was right' type of way which he will try and distract away from his own short comings

Biggar has not one ounce of flair.He poses no threat to the oppo's back row.If our centres are one dimensional it falls to the 10 to vary things.
Some folk cannot see this which is sad.If we keep picking plodders we will slip below Italy.

"Henson wasn't a lunatic he would be ideal" -- Henson makes his comeback game tomorrow for London Welsh -- if he gets off the bench without injuring himself again, that is. Hasn't played since November 'cos of injury - had a back pronblem, recovered, then damaged a calf in training apparently, so injured again.

Wales desperately need Henson. Haven't centres who can't pass and who have v little vision/great instincts and distribution is killing Wales' chances.

Taffineastbourne -- agree. A team can have afford one plodder, but we have far too many in the back line.

Thought Zebo played well with the odd moment of brilliance. Gilroy was good also, especially his defense in 2nd half but had too many very wayward kicks. Rory Best for me was great with some fantastic breakdown work. I really think with his leaderhip qualities and the fact that he will be one of the first names on the Lions teamsheet means he will and should be the Lions captain. Thought O'Brien played well too as did the back row as a unit - Although they were helped by the likes of Best, Healey and BOD etc at the breakdown alot as we now expect. And that pass, oh my oh my how beautifully floated that was, a moment of pure gold , the old dog ain't done yet!

But having said all that what the feck is wrong with Ireland? Every time we get a lead we then decide to sit back and kick the ball away and defend defend defend. It got to the point when I just knew Sexton was going to end up kicking it away, notably after a loop move close to the halfway line. Why the hell are we kicking ball away on or close to the halfway line? In fact we shouldn't even be doing 20 metres into our own half if we have a healthy lead. We are just heaping pressure on ourselves. Do these players not realise that if you have the ball then the opposition can't score? Talk about annoying

The best way for Ireland to keep the pressure off and not be in a position of our "tanks being empty" at the end is to keep the ball in hand and attack as much as we do at the start of a game. Talk about excruciatingly frustrating

On a side note, is Heaslip's hair getting more and more ridiculous by the day or is it just me?

Taffineastbourne wrote:Biggar has not one ounce of flair.He poses no threat to the oppo's back row.If our centres are one dimensional it falls to the 10 to vary things.
Some folk cannot see this which is sad.If we keep picking plodders we will slip below Italy.

But why change Biggar change the centres

Would Ireland have won this without BOD playing?

Pertinent question since it's probably his last 6 Nations.

Looseheaded wrote:the faces of those who dismiss BOD as 'past it' and 'ineffective'
still the front runner for B&I Lions 13

Also, now Howley has to forgive Tipuric for whatever sin he perpetrated against him, because the immediate difference with his arrival is enough to get him on the pitch next week.

100% agree

The reaction from Irish posters and especially from RTE is startling. Tactically that second half was absolutely abject. The decision making, the defensive shape and lack of leadership from senior players was clearly apparent. When the pressure is really on too many of our players tactically took a backward step. No one could question their bravery- but tactically that was an abject a second half display as we have produced over the past two seasons.

England will eat us alive next Sunday.

Ireland, if ever they can be persuaded to play at full throttle for 80 minutes, are a handful for anyone. They don't seem to want to thrash teams when they have them by the throat, which may come back to bite them sooner than they might like. Otherwise, winning away is never a bad thing, and they're entitled to approach next week with real confidence.

The word 'confidence' brings us to Wales, who are lacking it more than anything else. This is not suddenly a bad side; it's not even that abjectly selected - the amount of differing opinions about Biggar/Hook, the centres or the composition of the back three show us that. Every side gets into this rut from time to time where they don't really believe that they're actually going to win a game, no matter how well they're doing in it.

Wales are finding different ways to lose matches at the moment - at the last gasp v Australia or by not showing up for 40 minutes today. I strongly suspect that if Wales can even snatch a 3-0 win against someone, you'll see a much better side immediately afterwards. Don't despair must be the message.

14-Alex Cuthbert, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-George North

These seem to me to be four good players but not together. At the end of the day they are just too similar. Just as you would not play with four players in the style of Shane Williams playing four bangers will not work either. Wales are just too predictable.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The reaction from Irish posters and especially from RTE is startling. Tactically that second half was absolutely abject. The decision making, the defensive shape and lack of leadership from senior players was clearly apparent. When the pressure is really on too many of our players tactically took a backward step. No one could question their bravery- but tactically that was an abject a second half display as we have produced over the past two seasons.

England will eat us alive next Sunday.

Agreed H&H, we just need to hold on to the ball and go through the phases and take the chances as they come when we have a lead rather than shut up shop and defend that lead. It happens far too often with Ireland, remember SA in the AI's? If we still think there is a game of it cause the scoreline is close then our mindset remains in the right place. But the moment we get a good lead somebody flicks a switch and we struggle to get out of our own half for the rest of the game and we just kick away any decent ball - even if it's good ball combined with territory. We simply do not put pressure on other teams if we have a lead and we just hand the impetus to the opposition. It really is a strange one in many ways. Like I said before, the other team can't score if we have the ball so we should just bloody well hold on to it!

Exiledinborders wrote:14-Alex Cuthbert, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-George North

These seem to me to be four good players but not together. At the end of the day they are just too similar. Just as you would not play with four players in the style of Shane Williams playing four bangers will not work either. Wales are just too predictable.

Were we saying this last year thoguh when we won in Dublin, that said Cuthberts defence is poor.

i agree bedford. the centres did more to lose their shirts than biggar.

we have lost 6 games on the trot BIGGAR HAS PLAYED IN ONE ( and

not a bad start in samoan game til unjured.)

cuthbert, for all his poor play, cut a great line on to biggars pass for a try,

that should have been a centre. taffeastbourne, the centres were given the

ball, which many times was slow because it started slow, but even our best

patches when we were quick, it was the centres who didnt create

biggar tried a variety of different passes and kicks, you have to look at

what was done afterwards. we need a creative 12. steven jones was

named a plodder, but did his job. we won matches. the centres then took

responsibility to do the job they are on the field for.

we squandered chances today, that means the chances were created mmmmmmmmm

but they weren't squandered by biggar, you are picking on the wrong guy, as i said

the 10 was not the problem or the solution today.