England's Summer tour to Argentina

Well i dont know about everyone else but im fed up with "Lions Threads"
Allowing for Lions selections who would you like to see on the summer tour

Possible Lions exclusions:
Dan Cole, Joe Launchbury, Chris Robshaw, Chris Ashton, Owen Farrell, Manu Tuilagi, Dylan Hartley, Alex Corbisieru, Care / Youngs

So how about something like (a 33 man squad):

LH: Marler & Vunipola, Mullan TH: Davy Wilson, PDJ & Shaun Knight
Ho: T.Youngs - Grey
SR: Parling & Kitchener, Slater/Kruis and Lawes
Back Row: 6-Haskell & Wood, 7-Kvesic & Fraser, 8- Morgan & Vunipola
SH: Care / Youngs & Simpson
FH: Burns & Flood
12: Twelvetrees & Barritt
13: Jonathan Joseph & Elliott Daly
Wings: Wade, May, Eastmond, Marlon Yarde
FB: Goode - Brown - Foden (This is a tough one)

OK, England tour squad. Most likely a mix of the remaining EPS and Saxons.
Its still a tour that SL will want to win to chalk up a few, but its by no means an easy place to go.

Marler - Mako Vaunipola
T.Youngs - Grey
Wilson - H.Thomas
Parling - Robson
Lawes - Botha
Haskell - Johnston
Kvesick - Fraser
Morgan - Billy Vaunipola - Waldrom
L.Dickson - Simpson
Flood (or Freddie Burns)
Sharples - Strettle
Twelvetrees - Joel Tompkins!
Jonathan Joseph
Wade - May
Goode - Foden


SL seems to love Callum Clarke so he may travel with the squad.
No one really stood out in the recent Saxons games to be honest.
Additional travellers - Mullan/PDJ perhaps.

Some interesting shouts there PD.

Fraser v Kvesic could be a fascinating battle...both are impressing me hugely. But at the moment they have something to go to take Robshaws shirt off him.

Botha....id rather take someone like Slater or Kruis or Kitchener. A young upcoming player...Slater was the one who stood out both for Leicerster and one of the only ones who stood out in the Saxons.

Ill put my thoughts in the OP...

Lets not forget the success of the last antiLions tour in blooding new England stars and developing fringe players.
The likes of May, Vesty, Steffon Armitage ...oh.
Still Chris Robshaw got his first cap, then got ignored for the next 30 months.

Ho hum.

Think Parling could be in with a shout of touring with the Lions to be honest, so I'd exclude him from the summer touring squad for the time being.

I'd take him out for Kitchener, and replace RBotha with Attwood.

Could Fearns find his way back into the extended squad?

Like the look of the backs though Propdavid, very nice selection, and largely agree! Possibly Spencer at scrum half too, though an extra FH would be more pressing.

Peter, maybe the last tour parrallel to the Lions wasnt great...but i think we are seeing a different mentality with this current coaching team.

Whilst the recent Saxons games were less than impressive...this tour could be a nice mix of senior squad members, with young pretenders for spots where we are short...like ive included Shaun Knight. Get some experience with the squad the requirments etc...in a position we are cryig out for.

Carl Fearns is an interesting one...im not sure he'll get ahead of Haskell or Wood (or even Croft) for the 6 spot. He wont get ahead of Robshaw...and Kvesic & Fraser look set to be the main challengers to Robshaws shirt...and at 8 i would suspect its Morgan v Vunipola...
So unless he finds serious form and fitness...he may miss out..

I am unable to finde any definitive fixture scheduling for this tour. Is it just two tests, or are there midweek games too?

Im struggling myself mate...not much info at all...

LondonTiger wrote:I am unable to finde any definitive fixture scheduling for this tour. Is it just two tests, or are there midweek games too?

Here you go LT

http://www.lionsrugby.com/2013tour/fixtures.php

I just think that SL will still go for as many experienced guys as he can - henc selecting guys like Botha, maybe even Palmer.
But you are right, I too would like to see some of the young guys tested.

Does the RFU site even acknowledge it yet? They are really hopeless.

Croft.. well done Geordie. Completely forgot about Croft. If he's fit then I am sure that SL will take him.

bluestonevedder wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I am unable to finde any definitive fixture scheduling for this tour. Is it just two tests, or are there midweek games too?

Here you go LT

http://www.lionsrugby.com/2013tour/fixtures.php

Does that help me with the fixtures in Argentina?

Eddie...thats the Lions tour...its the England tour we can find much about mate.

Injuries/ call ups permitting there should be some good players available, it will be good to see how we fare without being able to just give it to an 18 stone samoan when we get into trouble. Strength in depth is key and hopefully we can really develop there.

So the players I think could be Lions'-ing:

Farrell
Tuilagi
Ashton
Youngs
Cole
Robshaw
Hartley (maybe)
Launchberry (maybe)

As SL will want to keep the EPS members who don't tour with the Lions together, we are basically looking for replacements for these players, plus a few saxons to get used to being in the squad.

So to replace the above:

Burns
Daly/Lowe (what has happened to Trinder by the way?)
Wade
Wigglesworth
Knight
Kvesic
Grey
Kruis

I would imagine the majority of the rest of the squad will be the same?
I'd also take some others for the midweek games; Attwood, Eastmond, Tomkins, Ford, PDJ and Fearns maybe.

Not sure if there are any midweek games. My usually good googling skills have failed me and the best I can find is a wiki page indicating two tests but no venues yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_mid-year_rugby_test_series

Would anyone take this opportunity to rest people...give them a summer off..like Wood/ Lawes who've had injury problems or would you say they've not played many games this season so they will be fresh, take them.

I think it will probably the latter...he'll take every one he can.

LondonTiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I am unable to finde any definitive fixture scheduling for this tour. Is it just two tests, or are there midweek games too?

Here you go LT

http://www.lionsrugby.com/2013tour/fixtures.php

Does that help me with the fixtures in Argentina?

Sorry mate, got my threads mixed up! Thank god it's a friday

The argentina rugby union says the games are on the 8th and 15th of June:
http://www.uar.com.ar/upload/pdfs/equipos/300-Fixture_de_Los_Pumas_en_2013.pdf

This is getting painful now...the question was regarding the non tests games ( ie are there any, I assume not)

Well at least the dates tie up for the tests, though no venues yet. I am guessing there are no midweek games - so that will make it a smaller touring party.

Sorry about the massive brain fart regarding the matches.

Would it be worth playing midweek games though? I know thereare obviously clubs there, but don't all the Argentinians ply their trades abroad?

I really hope they take this tour seriously and name the best possible team available. I would really be targeting two wins if they do.

I think we're in a strange situation where we don't really have many (if any) out and out superstars meaning the next person in line shouldn't actually mean too much of a drop quality. Exceptions perhaps Dan Cole and if the lions take our 1st & 2nd choice scrum halfs. I think it's a great opportunity for some of these players and for us to build our depth.

Strangely for this tour I think the absences that will be felt the most will be from the coaching staff! Any clues who Lancaster will call upon?

Back when they released the details of the tours (from very old 2010 Beeb article http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/8701915.stm)

The Rugby Football Union's director of elite rugby Rob Andrew said there was scope to add midweek matches to all tours.

"This is an exciting and ground-breaking schedule for all of the participating unions.

"There are no midweek games scheduled for England's summer tours as this will be determined by the respective host union and the RFU in partnership with PRL and the RPA.

"But as in this summer's tour to Australia and New Zealand, it's a concept we would be interested in discussing if all the relevant parties supported the idea."

The standard of club rugby in Argentina is pretty good, and the crowds are very intimidating. Young forwards especially would learn a lot. A couple of games against combined provincial teams could have been arranged and would probably have told us more than the farcical midweek matches in SA last summer.

Memories of playing against Tucuman can still wake me in a cold sweat.

LondonTiger wrote:The standard of club rugby in Argentina is pretty good, and the crowds are very intimidating. Young forwards especially would learn a lot. A couple of games against combined provincial teams could have been arranged and would probably have told us more than the farcical midweek matches in SA last summer.

Memories of playing against Tucuman can still wake me in a cold sweat.

Wish I'd toured somewhere like that, bet it was fantastic experience.

So how about:

1 Marler (Vunipola off the bench)
2 Youngs
3 Wilson (Knight off the bench)
4 Slater / Kruis
5 Parling
6 Wood (C)
7 Kvesic / Fraser
8 Morgan (Vunipola off the bench)

9 Care / Youngs (who doesnt tour)
10 Burns
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Daly
14 May
15 Brown / Foden / Goode ??

Do you mean Fraser on thebench at 7? Slater is versatile but....

Decent looking team.

Based on my own Lions assumptions, I think this would be a pretty good England XV for the summer:

1.Marler 2.Youngs 3.Thomas 4.Slater 5.Lawes 6.Croft 7.Wood (c) 8.Morgan 9.Care 10.Burns 11.Wade 12.Twelvetrees 13.Joseph 14.May 15.Foden

Great opportunity to let Burns and Twelvetrees play together in England colours with plenty of attacking options outside.

Yes LT...

Interesting a few people have mentioned Henry Thomas.

Do people think he's still a prospect..? Or is the likes of Knight, Sinkler, Balmain gonna overtake him.

I think Henry Thomas is an excellent player, and I'd say more than just a prospect.

I think it only a matter of time before he's second choice behind Cole, although I can't say I've seen much of Sinkler or Balmain.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Based on my own Lions assumptions, I think this would be a pretty good England XV for the summer:

1.Marler 2.Youngs 3.Thomas 4.Slater 5.Lawes 6.Croft 7.Wood (c) 8.Morgan 9.Care 10.Burns 11.Wade 12.Twelvetrees 13.Joseph 14.May 15.Foden

Great opportunity to let Burns and Twelvetrees play together in England colours with plenty of attacking options outside.

Very nice team FES. Some serious pace in the backline, and with Freddie pulling the strings they could be a real attacking threat. Nice pack too, if slightly on the light side.

Never realize the Argentians have played against the Lions, 7 time. Didn't know the Lions went there.

I think the only worries for the English side will be the forwards, would expect at least the front row and a 2nd row gone with the Lions, could be a bit light on experience.

Be good to see the fringe players and the prospects getting a decent test away in a hostile land. Be great experience for the likes of Joseph, Twelvetrees, Burns etc. Looking forward to this tour more than the Lions in truth.

I'd would definitely like to see how Wade fares at this level. Thought he did well last summer in South Africa but I think there are still questions about his ability to cope at the top level defensively. As a Wasps fan I think it is his positional sense rather than his bravery, which can of course be rectified much more easily!

GeordieFalcon wrote:
So how about something like (a 33 man squad):

LH: Marler & Vunipola, Mullan TH: Davy Wilson, PDJ & Shaun Knight
Ho: T.Youngs - Grey
SR: Parling & Kitchener, Slater/Kruis and Lawes
Back Row: 6-Haskell & Wood, 7-Kvesic & Fraser, 8- Morgan & Vunipola
SH: Care / Youngs & Simpson
FH: Burns & Flood
12: Twelvetrees & Barritt
13: Jonathan Joseph & Elliott Daly
Wings: Wade, May, Eastmond, Marlon Yarde
FB: Goode - Brown - Foden (This is a tough one)

I would be absolutely amazed if there weren't midweek games. This is the Saxons tour as well, and after the rain ruined the Scotland game I'm sure the coaches are desperate to get a proper look at a number of players. So the squad will be reasonably large. This being the last chance SL has to really experiment pre-WC I expect the squad and teams to be young.

I think you've got many of the test squad there, but Eastmond is a IC or even a 10, and I'm sure Henry Thomas is next in line at TH after Wilson. If we take another TH it could well be Brookes instead of Knight as it seems England have identified him and Thomas as the coming men. I'm sure Ford will tour as the third FH.

I think the main challenge is getting sufficient bulk into the backline. Maybe a call up for Guy Armitage, or a recall for Banahan. Nowell is a wildcard possibility.

dgttaylor wrote:I'd would definitely like to see how Wade fares at this level. Thought he did well last summer in South Africa but I think there are still questions about his ability to cope at the top level defensively. As a Wasps fan I think it is his positional sense rather than his bravery, which can of course be rectified much more easily!

After an excellent start to the season, Wades form seems to hav dipped alarmingly. Watching him for the Saxons and recent Wasps matches, he seems to be trying to run through players rather than round them.

He was better against Quins. He's a young man, learning all the time. I think he'll tour and may be ready for the AIs this year. It's good SL hasn't rushed him though, as he wasn't ready.

On a different note, remember when we were so short of 7's Armitage was being seriously considered? Well now we have Fraser, Kvesic, Fearns, Wood and Wallace fighting it out in Robshaw's absence. An incredible turn around in what was a problem position.

LondonTiger wrote:

dgttaylor wrote:I'd would definitely like to see how Wade fares at this level. Thought he did well last summer in South Africa but I think there are still questions about his ability to cope at the top level defensively. As a Wasps fan I think it is his positional sense rather than his bravery, which can of course be rectified much more easily!

After an excellent start to the season, Wades form seems to hav dipped alarmingly. Watching him for the Saxons and recent Wasps matches, he seems to be trying to run through players rather than round them.

Looked pretty good in his last game v Quins I thought, seemed to be happy to go for the gaps. I hope that continues and it's not another 'Let's get him built like a cumbersome battering ram block'. I suspect Young has enough nous to focus on what he does well. Fingers crossed.

You'd think that the schedule would be out for the tour so fans could prepare for it?

Looking forward to these games a lot and seeing some more youngsters get a run out.

Any chance of a nearly all Glos backline with Burns, Sharples, Twelvetrees, Trinder and May?

Weren't there similar issues in 2009? I seem to remember there being issues about broadcasting as well.

In 2009 we played two "away" tests, one in Old Trafford and one actually in Argentina. The OT test was televised, the one in Argentina wasn't.

I thought I read somewhere that it was two tests and one midweek game, but I can't remember.

Not sure who will go on the Lions, but there are a few things I'd like to see.

Wilson starting in the tests to see how he fares, with a younger option on the bench for experience.
Billy Vunipola, Freddie Burns, Billy Twelvetrees and Christian Wade getting good gametime on tour.

But basically it's a tour we want to win 2-0, so then bringing some more experienced players like Botha, Palmer, Croft, Johnson, Flood, Barritt, etc wouldn't be bad picks.

yappysnap wrote:You'd think that the schedule would be out for the tour so fans could prepare for it?

Looking forward to these games a lot and seeing some more youngsters get a run out.

Any chance of a nearly all Glos backline with Burns, Sharples, Twelvetrees, Trinder and May?

Trinder appears to have been dropped by Gloucester, so I suspect he's some way from an international call-up.

robbo277 wrote:
But basically it's a tour we want to win 2-0, so then bringing some more experienced players like Botha, Palmer, Croft, Johnson, Flood, Barritt, etc wouldn't be bad picks.

You think it matters much? Given the world cup rankings are set I'd say learning more about some young players is more important than the result. I'd see this tour as the last chance for widescale experimentation before 2015.

What about Matt Garvey - Geordie surely you'll back me on this?! Or do we just think he's the forgotten man?

Don't laugh, but I'd also like to see James Cannon tour if his form keeps up.

He spends a lot of time at 6 for LI. I just don't think he's what the England management are looking for. Cannon is actually a better fit, but I have no idea if England are looking at him.

DaveM wrote:He spends a lot of time at 6 for LI. I just don't think he's what the England management are looking for. Cannon is actually a better fit, but I have no idea if England are looking at him.

I haven't heard him suggested anywhere which is odd given he's playing well in a team doing well AND he runs the lineout when Wentzel's not playing.

Shame about Garvey, but he's still pretty raw. I'd like to see him at HC level and see if he can cut it there. I guess he'll have to move for that.

Hood,

I just think Garvey is not going to considered. Also they seem to prefer more athletic dynamic players like Slater, kruis, etc

bluestonevedder wrote:Think Parling could be in with a shout of touring with the Lions to be honest, so I'd exclude him from the summer touring squad for the time being.

I'd take him out for Kitchener, and replace RBotha with Attwood.

Could Fearns find his way back into the extended squad?

Like the look of the backs though Propdavid, very nice selection, and largely agree! Possibly Spencer at scrum half too, though an extra FH would be more pressing.

Fearns is a good shout bluestone. He's coming back for Bath and moving during games between 7 and 8. As GF has pointed out he faces some strong competition in the flanker spots but for my money he'd make an excellent Number 8/Replacement for Haskell. If he can keep his fitness and form going I would like to see a backrow for the Argie test (allowing for Lions call ups) of 6. J Haskell 7. W Fraser 8. C Fearns 20. T Croft - that would be a real peach.

I'd be tempted to rest Wood for the tour if he doesn't make the Lions as with his foot injury the more down time he gets the better I think and he's played extremely well at test level so far.

I'd agree on Shaun Knight GF but I think Lancs will take Henry Thomas instead. There was a lad who made an appearance for the U20's in Plymouth against Scotland. He looked a unit if a touch too heavy. Think he was a Falcon?

Garvey needs to move to Glaws. That'll put him hopefully into the right sort of contention and for people/press to start making a noise about his impact in games.