England summer tour of Argentina

I believe Wood and Kvesic are both in the ~16st region (off the top of my head). Not massive by modern back row standards, but not really lightweight either.

For those saying 'you can't have it all' re: Strettle and Paice, I ask why not?

These are horrendous selections for which there really is no justification. Yes overall it is a very encouraging team but lets be honest the team pretty much picks itself and these conservative (does it actually count as conservatism when we all know they're not 'solid' they're just poor) selections are another indication that Lancaster really needs to develop as a tactician and a selector. There are signs of progression but it's moving at a snail's pace and I have a horrible feeling we will revert to type as soon as the more important games come around.

I must say I like the overall look of the team. The pack is as I would want it notwithstanding my point regarding Kvesic. I hope he does well and puts a marker down for the 7 shirt come the AIs. The balance of the BR is superb and would be my long-term choice.

Some excellent firepower on the bench. I think Wilson will show some real class across these two Tests and he might have a chance to push Cole all the way. His carrying and general scrummaging are better than Cole's.

I don't see any reason for selecting Paice. He doesn't offer experience or accuracy. Buchanan for me.

Strettle there is more of an argument for. He scored some tries towards the back end of the season and has the experience. Much like PDJ though I think it's his last chance to shine in an England shirt and be involved going forwards.

The back-line looks full of attacking threat. If they can defend as well, I think we've got the makings of a really good back line - I'd just bring in Youngs/Care and Tuilagi and it'll be the best back line in the 6 Nations.

It's great the BBC are showing this match, even its pretty much being ignored in the mainstream media.

Not much to add to peoples comments on the selection other than mostly good but disappointed with Strettle and Paice.

Yarde and May are ready for that step up now and are already better players IMO, let alone better prospects. Similar view with regards to Buchanan deserving a go over Paice.

It will be a shame if someone like Paice retains a place in the Saxons going forward as we have the likes of Youngs, Webber and Hartley establishing themselves then Buchanan, Gray and Lindsay showing so much promise. With only two places for hookers going in each squad currently it would be very disappointing to see any of those guys left out for DP.

EPS - Webber, Youngs
Saxons - Hartley, Buchanan

Alex_Germany wrote:The back-line looks full of attacking threat. If they can defend as well, I think we've got the makings of a really good back line - I'd just bring in Youngs/Care and Tuilagi and it'll be the best back line in the 6 Nations.

It's great the BBC are showing this match, even its pretty much being ignored in the mainstream media.

Indeed.

Argentina v England - First Test


2013/2014

Duration: 2 hours, 30 minutes

Jason Mohammad presents live coverage of the first Test between Argentina and England in Salta.

England coach Stuart Lancaster is using this tour to take a look at a host of talented young players in the absence of many of his first-choice team, with nine of them on duty with the British and Irish Lions in Australia.

Tom Wood will captain a squad that includes 12 uncapped players, of which four are under the age of 21, against an Argentina side that are notoriously difficult to beat on home soil.

Jason is joined in the studio by Jonathan Davies and Sir Clive Woodward, with commentary from Eddie Butler.

Oh no!

Jason 'shouting is the only option' Mohammed is presenting

Might be worth starting a new thread before this one is archived

Is this on tele?

EDIT Ignore question

... And here comes the monologue!

Bbc 2

HammerofThunor wrote:Might be worth starting a new thread before this one is archived

https://www.606v2.com/t45038-england-summer-tour-of-argentina-v2

There you go Hammer! Thanks a lot to everyone whose contributed to the thread, but time to move it on to the new one having reached 1000 posts.

Cumbrian wrote:... And here comes the monologue!

Exactly what I said

Dicksons service is nearly as bad as Phillips

Interesting debate about Crofts performance for the lions. is he still englands best 6 or must Wood start. Is Wood a more traditional 6?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting debate about Crofts performance for the lions. is he still englands best 6 or must Wood start. Is Wood a more traditional 6?

They are different. Happy to have either starting but they have different strengths. I'd be happy with flank combos of either Croft-Robshaw, Wood-Kvesic or Haskell-Wood/Haskell-Robshaw.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting debate about Crofts performance for the lions. is he still englands best 6 or must Wood start. Is Wood a more traditional 6?

Toxic debate i woudl say.

Really it depends on the game plan being chosen. Bothe are excellent players and eitehr woudl serve us with distinction.

yeah fair point LT use them both depending on opposition

I think we'd be unwise to discard Haskell too soon. His work-rate is really improved and his power, while sometimes not quite translating as you'd hope, is a notch up and very useful against teams like SA I think.

Horses for courses. If I say it enough, everyone will have to agree with me

The haters will never change their mind on Croft no matter what he does. Its astonishing how much they repeat the same garbage. (and some odd stuff - someone claimed Lydiate is good in lineouts...)

We are lucky to have three (or 4 if you included Robshaw) really top class no.6's all with differing skill sets.

That may be true lostinwales, but we could really do with merging a few of those players and their different skill sets! They're all top class but are they in the best two or three 6s or 7s in the world, I'd say not. Still, good depth shouldn't be sniffed at.

Croft is quality when on form and he has someone like Morgan/Crane etc at 8 to help him out. He'll be around the Eng team for a while yet. Wood is also very good but still pretty new compared to Croft and has quiet games himself.

I'd like to see Haskell get a run of games at 6/7 as he still has plenty to offer.

I've been championing Croft and Wood playing together, and I'd really like to see it tried out.  I don't particularly agree with the view that it lacks balance, but if it doesn't work then we have the depth to mix it up.  Robshaw will obviously remain very much in the picture and Kvesic looks a great prospect.  

Have to admit I completely forgot about Haskell when writing up my thoughts on the other Argentina tour thread, but now you remind me, I really hope he is still involved going forward.  He offers something different and can cover across the back row which is always useful.  He is also very experienced and with the way the squad is developing it would be nice to have another 40-odd capper around.  If there's only room for 6 back rowers, and assuming Croft, Wood, Robshaw, Morgan are guaranteed and Kvesic very likely, I'd rather Haskell than Billy V at the moment.  If Morgan picks up a knock its easy enough to promote Billy V from the Saxons.

A few different combo's for us:

Speed and Lineout - 6. Croft 7. Kvesic 8. Wood

Tackle count - 6. Wood 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan

Ooomph - 6. Wood 7. Haskell 8. Vunipola

Breakdown - 6.Wood 7. Robshaw 8.Haskell

Add in future players like Wallace, Fearns, Fraser etc and the future's bright and headachy.

Interesting exercise but if fit, I don't want to see anyone other than Morgan at 8 for now. Haskell can cover mid game or from the bench, and Vunipola may challenge somewhere down the line, but recent experience shows we need an 8 at 8 and Morgan is comfortably the best 8 we have.

I suspect if Haskell gets a look in he'll be on the bench. Not a bad option to cover the back-row but I do think, depending on form, he's the closest we have to a 'traditional 6'. I know plenty think that concept is a load of hogwash, which is fair enough, but Wood and Croft together...i just don't feel comfortable with it. 

Completely forgot about Fearns. I think he's going to be behind Morgan and BV as a straight carrying 8, so maybe his best shot is at 6. For some of the younger players I have no problem with them trying out a few back-row positions, but for others I think they really need to stick to one. 

6 - Haskell, Wood, Croft, 
7 - Robshaw, Kvesic, Fraser
8 - Morgan, BV, Fearns

We're slowly building a stable of back-rowers who I think might have the ability, power and depth to challenge SA in that department. Encouraging but we need to see some of them make that step up to world class i.e. best or second best in the world in that position.

Let's try a Croft-Wood combo if you like in a weak match. I think the risk of them being blown off the pitch is too high to try it against tough opposition

I just dont like a Wood / Croft 6/7 at all im afraid.

6 - Wood. Does everything, hes our Juan Smith, and thats a huge compliment as that guy was simply top class.

7 - Robshaw at the moment, but Kvesic and Fraser are going to be right on his heals now....

8 - I dont want to see Wood anywhere near the 8 spot again. Its Morgan first with Billy bound to continue improving now hes going to Sarries.

Completely agree with Geordiefalcon.

Agree that Haskell still has plenty to give and more than deserves an EPS place. In terms of building a squad for the World Cup he's a very useful player given the squads are only 32 players big so a guy who can cover the whole back-row competently is a big asset.

At No 8 both Morgan and Billy V are big talents with lots still to improve on and but also big strengths in their game. One thing I'd say for Morgan over Billy is that he is very quick for a guy his size. Vunipola is incredibly strong in contact but I haven't seen him shift like Morgan can. The Saxons is going to be an interesting squad to see next season given players returning and others putting their hands up over the summer and at the end of the season.

EPS

Corbs, Vunipola, Marler, Cole, Wilson
Youngs, Webber
Parling, Launchberry, Attwood, Lawes
Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Kvesic, Haskell
Morgan, Vunipola
Youngs, Care
Farrell, Burns, Flood
Twelvetrees, Barritt, Tuilagi, Daly
Wade, Yarde, May
Brown, Foden, Tait

That's a 33 man squad which is the official EPS size. Given the squad is announced in July it should be based on the past season and summer tours IMO from which I'd like to see the above. If guys like Ashton or Joseph show form I'd be very happy for them to come in as injury replacements but given what we saw at the back end of the season I'd go for the above. Two places I feel harsh are leaving Goode out at 15 but Tait's superior pace makes me really want him back in the squad. Secondly leaving out Eastmond will be frowned upon I expect but I've been really impressed by Daly all season and feel he has a more complete game, also not sure Eastmond is best suited to centre at International level.

Saxons

Catt, Mullan, Thomas, Knight
Hartley, Buchanan, Lindsay
Kitchener, Slater, Kruis, Garvey
Johnson, Fraser, Wallace, Fearns, Gibson
Crane, Waldrom
Dickson, Simpson, Robson
Ford, AN Other - Really hoping Clegg's return to Newcastle reignites his career to claim that second spot!
Allen, Lowe, Joseph, Tomkins
Ashton, Eastmond, Sharples, Strettle
Goode, Abendanon

That's what I'd go for currently but fully expect many to have other ideas!

I think thats pretty much right Carlos.

In all reality its basically one squad anyway with promotion through injuries...so we need to make sure we have both the best players and best youngsters in there for continuation and development.

We probablly all have our own little changes.

It appears Daly is being earmarked for a 15, so id probably put Joseph in the 1st team...hopefully a switch to Gary Golds impressive looking Bath side can rejuvanate him.

The starting back row is probably set, but the reserves are wide open. Kvesic enhanced his reputation...but Will Fraser has been oustanding, likewise Will Welch our captain has a chance to show how good he is in the prem whilst Andy Saull has a chance to realise the potential he showed early in his career.

Its ironic....England are always criticised for underperforming due to having the biggest playing numbers...and yet at times having so many options can be a detriment...

It seems highly unlikely that Goode will be dropped from first choice full back, to be replace by a guy (Tait) who didn't even get in the squad to Argentina. Similarly, Daly wasn't in the squad so must be behind Joseph, Eastmond, Burrell and Tomkins in their thinking.

You've also missed out the first name on the squad list - Callum Clark

Not sure about Goode. With Foden back to health, I would make him first choice at fullback. Of course, Lancaster is not taking my calls at the moment.

So come on then....any one fancy stating their starting 15 + subs for the Ai's?
I think we'll see...
 
1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Parling
6 Wood
7 Robshaw (C)
8 Morgan
 
9 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Foden
 
16 M.Vunipola 17 B Vunipola 18 D.Wilson 19 M.Kvesic
20 D.Care 21 F.Burns 22 D.Attwood 23 R.Webber 24 K Eastmond

I would like to think that surely now, Callum Clark wont be in the EPS. He's been on and off injured for the last 2 seasons, hasn't performed particularly well to justify selection when he has been playing either.
Surely now he can be dropped off the list and hopefully out of the Saxons too.

Geordie - I think that SL may still go for the usual guys. = Barritt over Twelvetrees.

Who are we playing in the AI's?

England 2013 end-of-year internationals:

Saturday, November 2: Australia (Twickenham)

Saturday, November 9: Argentina (Twickenham)

Saturday, November 16: New Zealand (Twickenham)

OK - straight in there then.
There aren't any warm up internationals where we would like SL to chuck in 1 or 2 experimental players or combinations.
We really have to hit the ground running and pick the strongest side possible against all 3 teams.

Genuine question, are you allowed 9 on the bench from the Autumn?

Like the look of that team but don't think we'll see Yarde and Wade starting. Be surprised if Brown and Goode are both out of the squad and I think they rate Croft hightly so would expect him to be in there.

The team mostly picks itself - barring injury - SL may go back to picking a 15 on the wing (hope not). I would like May involved but SL didn't select him much at all on tour. He may pick the youngsters Yarde and Wade.

Corbis - Youngs - Cole
Launchbury - Parling
Wood - Robshaw - Morgan
Youngs
Farrell
Yarde
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Wade
Brown

Bench -
Vaunipola (better after Lions exp), Webber (showed well on Tour), Wilson (Showed he is a good substitute for Cole), Lawes (impact replacement - could be Attwood if bulk needed), Croft (quality replacement), Billy Vaunipola (impact sub - last 15-20mins), D.Care (proven and better than Dickson/wiggy), F.Burns (hopefully SL takes a chance on him over Flood), Foden (covers back 3 and good form on tour).

Players that I feel for but could force their way in from Saxons squad -
Eastmond - would love to see this guy in an England shirt again - excellent bench option covering back 3 and centres (not sure about 10 though).
Joseph - needs to get some form back - haven't seen the best of him in an England shirt.
May - unlucky again, not tested much on tour - not sure what he has to do but performances by others that were given the chance means that he drops in the order (above Strettle though).
Tompkins - SL gave him a chance vs BaaBaas, looked good in the Twelvetrees mould. Injury prevented him touring so should be in the Saxons this time.
Slater - same as Tompkins, likely Saxon - hopefully his time will come.

The interesting one is that we all seem to have dropped Marler. Quite harsh in a sense as his actual scrumaging and bread and butter "prop work" is improving nicely.

That part is better than Vunipolas, maybe its because his carrying has been brought to this level like Mako's has.

Corbs is first choice but then id be happy with either Marler or Vunipola.

The concern of course is how injury prone Corbs seems to be...it might be a case of Marler and Vunipola become our 1st and 2nd choice.

Marler will still be in the EPS, let's wait and see how Mako copes with the Aussies on Saturday and how all 3 do in their Club Seasons before we decide who should be doing what

I don't think Marler has stepped up too well. He looked good in Arg but hard to judge against the opp.

Corbs is clearly first choice and Mako is worth sticking with due to his work around the park.

I'd prefer Mullen over Marler tbh

Quite right CJ - Marler will still be in the EPS. But we are all still waiting to see his Club workrate presented on the international stage. Unfortunately we have seen those glimpses of Mako in the loose.

Both Vaunipola and Marler need to work on their scrimmaging though - both are behind Corbisiero on that front.

propdavid_london wrote:Quite right CJ - Marler will still be in the EPS. But we are all still waiting to see his Club workrate presented on the international stage.  Unfortunately we have seen those glimpses of Mako in the loose.  

Both Vaunipola and Marler need to work on their scrimmaging though - both are behind Corbisiero on that front.

well, if we are counting Mako's tour so far, which has been against poor opposition except his sub-par show against the Aussies, then we have to count Argentina. Where Marler was also exceptional in the loose, especially in the last test!

jelly wrote:It seems highly unlikely that Goode will be dropped from first choice full back, to be replace by a guy (Tait) who didn't even get in the squad to Argentina. Similarly, Daly wasn't in the squad so must be behind Joseph, Eastmond, Burrell and Tomkins in their thinking.

You've also missed out the first name on the squad list - Callum Clark

I was thinking (or typing) out loud more than anything with the squads to be honest, just thinking about what I'd ideally like to see in the July announcement. I'd be extremely surprised to see Goode left out as you say, similarly I'd be shocked to see Daly in there.

Given that Anthony Allen was not considered on medical grounds I'm really hoping he hasn't been leapfrogged by Burrell and Eastmond at 12 as it would be really unfair on a guy that has been performing very well week in week out for the last two seasons. Personally I'd say there's a big argument that he's a better option that Barritt given how good his defence is now plus his much superior attacking ability. He breaks the line with regularity for the Tigers these days.

As for Clark I was under the impression Lancaster had awarded him a player-physio contract on the basis that he gives good foot rubs...

Out of interest where would people like to see Eastmond running out for Bath next season. I'm guessing Joseph will be at 13 but given Banahan and Eastmond both play wing and centre it'll be interesting to see the combinations used there. Ideally I see Eastmond as a winger so would be interested in seeing:

9.Young 10.Ford 11.Biggs 12.Banahan 13.Joseph 14.Eastmond 15.Abendanon

With the likes of Heathecote, Agulla, Rokoduguni and Anthony Watson to add to those among others there really is going to be some talent in that backline next season!

Some great options going forward for this EPS as a result of the summer tour. A lot of players across the team really put their hands up but also demonstrated some differing skills from those currently above them in the pecking order.

Ideally i'd like to see the following players called up to the EPS:

Dave Attwood - for the extra line-out technician but mainly his power in the scrum and close quarters Attwood is a must for me in the EPS.

Rob Webber - his prowess around the park and excellent scrummaging work mean he deserves a return to the EPS. Some superb displays of tackling and hard close quarter carrying.

Matt Kvesic - whilst I don't see him taking a Test spot just yet his performances and work rate in these SA Tests demand inclusion. Training in camp with the other guys during the AIs will bring his game on and he will be pushing for a place.

Marland Yarde - again like all of the above players, he offers something different than what we presently have in the EPS. He showed some quality finishing, great running angles and power in the tackle. Enough for me to make him a Test starter.

Kyle Eastmond - it's early days but his quick feet, excellent distribution and power which belies his size is such a potent combination I think he must be included. He can cover a number of positions but i'd like to see him in the centre for his ball playing skills. He has something which almost no other players in England can offer and that makes him a special player.

Christian Wade - demonstrated that his defence has come on leaps and bounds in the Puma Test 1 and brought some top class speed, finishing and game understanding to the back-line. Like Yarde justifies his inclusion in the EPS by offering just what England need.

Now the real question is those who lose out. Dave Attwood should replace Callum Clark, he's not had a chance so far with England but his inclusion was almost never justified on his playing performances. He needs to go back to the Saxons and show some top drawer form before being recalled.

Matt Kvesic I would bring in for Thomas Waldrom. He fell out of favour last year and couldn't even tempt Lancs to move an underpowered Tom Wood from eighth man. Has offered glimpses of class but too little too rarely. Billy V incidentally I would keep with the Saxons but train with the EPS.

Rob Webber to replace Dylan Hartley at present. Hartley's form hasn't been up to scratch for a while and his discipline issues got the better of him in the AP final. For me he needs a wake-up call and that means a demotion. On form I don't think it's debatable.

Marland Yarde I would bring in for David Strettle. He had a chance on tour and failed to show the potential he did some years ago for England. I'd drop him to the Saxons.

Christian Wade I would bring in for Alex Goode. Now I know this is highly unlikely but it's my call. I don't think he's looked the same since coming back from injury and if England want to play a more attacking game the likes of JJ and Ashton should stay. They will both come good.

Finally, Kyle Eastmond I would swap in for Lee Dickson. He hasn't offered a huge amount and doesn't inspire me particularly with his general play. Likely to be behind Kahn next season at Saints as well. I don't feel we need 3 scrum halves and 3 full backs in the squad frankly.

Chjw - I'd be pretty happy with most of those changes. The problem we have is htat we have about 5 or 6 backrowers who could be world class. Some have shown glimpses in the right team (Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Haskell) but looked average in the wrong team, others look class but haven't yet shown it against the very best for 80 mins (Morgan), and others still have shown potential but would need a good run of games for us to know (Kvesic, Fraser) - I'm slightly worried we'll have the same problem as usual - very good players picked but who never quite reach world-beater level but who stop young players coming in.

It's better to have too few players to choose from but the danger is there is a whole generation of players with world class potential who'll never get to realise it. You could probably make the same case for players like Slater, Daly, Joseph, Eastmond, JJ, May

I'm encouraged by the depth but how can we make sure we get the right selection, right balance, right gameplan and the right development of younger players with so many jigsaw pieces. Very glad I don't have to make these calls!