England summer tour of Argentina

First topic message reminder :

I believe Wood and Kvesic are both in the ~16st region (off the top of my head). Not massive by modern back row standards, but not really lightweight either.

For those saying 'you can't have it all' re: Strettle and Paice, I ask why not?

These are horrendous selections for which there really is no justification. Yes overall it is a very encouraging team but lets be honest the team pretty much picks itself and these conservative (does it actually count as conservatism when we all know they're not 'solid' they're just poor) selections are another indication that Lancaster really needs to develop as a tactician and a selector. There are signs of progression but it's moving at a snail's pace and I have a horrible feeling we will revert to type as soon as the more important games come around.

I suspect that over the next year or two we might see Kitchener rise above Parling as the lineout specialist for club & country, he's got that bit more bite and athleticism about him.

Parling - Kitchener
14 Matches 18
1 Tries 3
5 Points 15
1 Try assist 0
0 Kicks From Hand 1
24 Passes 39
0 Yellow cards  0
0 Red cards 0
69 Carries 68
100 Metres carried 232
1 Clean breaks 5
3 Offloads 5
2 Defenders beaten 8
105 Tackles 135
11 Missed tackles 11
6 Penalties conceded 10
12 Turnovers conceded 13
68 Line outs won own throw 69
11 Lineout steals 8

If Attwood trains himself to be a top class lineout leader then the guy could be an International for years. He would offer exactly what Parling can't. I do think that Tigers will move to a Slater/Kitchener combination over the next season, the guys have done their apprentiships and can do the old school stuff plus great mobility.

Tackle stats can certainly be misleading Ozzy but the give an indication of the work rates of players in defence. I'd also take Croft over Wood every day of the week. Croft's levels of mobility and ability, to cover in the wide channels where our new rush defence is weakest not to mention that his skill level is better than that of most of our backs let alone forwards. Wood is a taller Robshaw in my eyes, pick one or the other.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Parling certainly lacks a physical impact ball in hand. Worth noting he has the best tackle stats of any Lions forward from todays game with 14 tackles made and none missed (per ESPN). That level of ork rate maybe makes it easier for the likes of Launchbury to shine for England.

This is what i hate about stats.  I had this argument with a mate during the 6 Nations about Parling and his high tackle count.  We rewatched the game and picked out every tackle that he made, and on all bar 1 occasion, the ball carrier knocked him backwards and crossed the gainline before Parling dragged him to ground.

In the modern game, the gainline is everything, and Parling very rarely wins the collision in either defence or attack at international level.  Great club player and a real grafter for England, but just not physical enough for me as a tight 5 forward.

Agree 100%. Tackles made shows work-rate, it doesn't show the effectiveness of those tackles. Both Launchbury and Parling get through a huge amount, but where are our second rows knocking their players back - Attwood, not yet convinced - Garvey, seems to have gone backwards - Slater, perhaps but needs more HC experience I think. People have, rightly I think, talked about a lack of carrying in the 2nd row, but there is also a lack of very solid gain-line stopping defence. We need to sort this, stat!

Don't forget that Launchberry was famous for his huge gainline tackles when playing against his peers in the U20's, he isn't getting a chance to show it yet but I bet in a season or two as he grows he'll be making more of an impact.

Clifford I'd like to see play only at 8 for Quins, I don't like this moving backrowers all over the place, especially as we have Trayfoot coming through at 6 who looks like he could be a beast (learning from big Mo helps).

Parling does seem to be drifting into the 'Steve Borthwick School For Honest Triers'. However, we would be sacrificing more experience if we replace him. It seems like every time we play at the moment we run into ridiculous statistics like when we play Ireland BOD and Darcy have more caps than our pack combined!

As it is I would also go with KC's pack with Ozzy's suggested change.

See what you're saying about experience Cumbrian, and Parling is an experienced pro, but he's still only played 13 games for England so dropping him for someone like Attwood doesn't make much of a dent on the cap count (Courtney Lawes has a fair few more caps than Parling - not that I'd start Lawes at the moment).  

I just don't see what Parling brings over any of the competition.  His line out is stronger than that of his competition, but none of the other options are particularly weak here and if we have Croft and/or Wood in the back row then this isn't a concern anyway.  In every other facet of play he is poor by international standards.  I really hope Attwood has a storming start to the season with Bath to push his case further.

He may have only 13 caps, but he has had two full Six Nations campaigns, a tour to S.A and tests against the other teams in the big three behind him as first choice player as well as being a Lion. He's packed a lot into his international career. I suppose you then need to weigh this against what his opposition bring and decide whether his experience is worth it. As it happens, I agree that Attwood looks a good challenger at the moment.

Funny, over the last year I remember a number of games where Parling was the best England player on the pitch. And he's certainly the most improved England player. And at the moment he doesn't have that much competition for his place. And he's a current Lions player. And he looks like he's the keyboard player in a Brit band.

Very true Cumbrian, hadn't considered it from that perspective. But to flip it around, the fact that Parling has managed to squeeze all this into 13 caps across 18 months suggests it wouldn't take very long for another player to build such a CV.

Who do people view as our best 13 after Tuilagi? Or indeed our best 13 if you don't rate Manu too highly.

The more I look back over prem games I missed from last season the higher I rate Daly as a prospect at 13. I know many people, including Lancaster reportedly, like him at 15 but given his handling skills, quick feet around contact and pace off the mark I'd prefer to see him stay at OC. His speed as well I'd like to see in the centres given we've really lacked pace in the backs in recent years.

I know Lancaster is very unlikely to look beyond Jospeh for that second 13 spot in the EPS but given his inconsistent form last season and his solid but unspectacular showing in Argentina I'd actually love to see Daly or even Lowe rewarded for good form last season with an EPS spot come the announcement in a couple of weeks. Their extra pace and good footwork would offer a very good alternative to Manu I feel.

Tomkins also showed good form for much of last season and offers a real physical edge plus his off loading game, he was unlucky to get injured when he did just before the Arb tour. I just can't help feel some extra pace in the bacline alone could offer so much more attacking potential however.

I like Daly at 13 - I'd like wasps to leave him there but it seems everyone wants him at 15

Lancaster could pick Barritt, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi and Eastmond as his centres, that way he can put some of the 13 options in the Saxons (Tomkins, Joseph and Daly) and call up the form pick if Manu gets injured.

The options for me are Joseph, Lowe, Tomkins, Trinder and Daly. Could also consider Eastmond at 13, I think he'll remain a centre/back 3 utility option for a while at least and could make a really good test match bench option.

The problem is that all of the options are good, but non have really stood out above the crowd. All have their attributes and weaknesses. This once again highlights the difficulty in selecting the EPS in July, but given the financial implications it seems that it would be impossible not to name it at this stage. I like robbo's selection as it leaves options open, but Eastmond may still be viewed as a high risk option.

Joseph would appear to be the man in possession, although it's hard to tell with the Lions, injuries and restings. I think if he'd managed to make the Argentina tour, Tompkins would have been the most likely starter. This may put him ahead of Joseph in the coaches minds, although we have seen that Lancaster generally prefers to reintegrate players slowly after injuries. The other 3 aren't going to make the EPS this time, but performances in the early part of the season could help them to the front of the queue in the event of injury.

Another consideration is that, barring injury, Tuilagi is likely to play the majority of games as he is integral to the Lancaster game plan. As a result, the back up 13 is unlikely to see much action regardless of who it is. This could be a problem if Manu does pick up a long term injury or suffer a dramatic loss of form.

As an aside, I'd be tempted to ditch Barritt as well and bring in another of these young guys, but it won't happen so it's not really worth suggesting.

Hood83 wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Parling certainly lacks a physical impact ball in hand. Worth noting he has the best tackle stats of any Lions forward from todays game with 14 tackles made and none missed (per ESPN). That level of ork rate maybe makes it easier for the likes of Launchbury to shine for England.

This is what i hate about stats.  I had this argument with a mate during the 6 Nations about Parling and his high tackle count.  We rewatched the game and picked out every tackle that he made, and on all bar 1 occasion, the ball carrier knocked him backwards and crossed the gainline before Parling dragged him to ground.

In the modern game, the gainline is everything, and Parling very rarely wins the collision in either defence or attack at international level.  Great club player and a real grafter for England, but just not physical enough for me as a tight 5 forward.

Agree 100%. Tackles made shows work-rate, it doesn't show the effectiveness of those tackles. Both Launchbury and Parling get through a huge amount, but where are our second rows knocking their players back - Attwood, not yet convinced - Garvey, seems to have gone backwards - Slater, perhaps but needs more HC experience I think. People have, rightly I think, talked about a lack of carrying in the 2nd row, but there is also a lack of very solid gain-line stopping defence. We need to sort this, stat!

Ok, so being a sad individual I just rewatched the game focusing on Parlings 'tackles'.

I made it 13 made and 1 missed.

The miss was fairly crucial as it was in the 75th minute on Genia allowing him to cross the gainline in the build up to the try. Of the 13 tackles he made, he stopped the ball carrier on the gainline 3 times. On the other 10 Australia crossed the gainline and either offloaded or recylcled, with 1 exception where another Lion came in and got his hands on the ball and the Aussie ball carrier was pinged for not releasing. Overall I would estimate that he was about -12 to -15 metres in terms of how far the ball carriers got across the gainline.

14 (or 13 and a miss) is all well and good, but actually the majority of the tackles were pretty ineffective.

I'm with you on Parling, he's a real effective chop tackler but you need more from a lock at Int level.

Players like Attwood, Slater etc knock the momentum out of attacks by often driving the attacker backwards.

We need players like this.

Well Parling has gone down in everyone's estimations in the last 24 hours.

But I can't disagree with what any of you guys are saying, Parling does lack grunt for a lock and if the likes of of Kitchener or Attwood gain his intellect in the lineout area he will be put under serious pressure and probably surplus to requirements.


However, despite Parling's seemingly wirey frame and lack of bulk he has played well in the test arena hence his Lions call up and Geoff has consistently kept making the step up in standard when asked to and uses offloads and outside shoulders to get around his lack of size. From relatively unknown Newcastle player, to being an essential cog in the Tigers 2010 Prem win and playing in massive HC fixtures to then running England's lineout and finally playing for the lions, where in the tour games he has played well IMO. Yesterday was probably the one occasion where he fell short. Also do not underestimate his ability at running the lineout, it is very highly regarded at Tigers and I can remember how much Skiv struggled when he tried to replace him in the 2011 season. Also he is a real leader, captaining Newcastle and Tigers a few time being the lineout caller and that was shown after the Brumbies game when he stood up and told everyone what was what. Don't underestimate ol' Geoff fellas. I think he is one of those players that's influence will be far more apparent when he isnt there.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:Well Parling has gone down in everyone's estimations in the last 24 hours.

But I can't disagree with what any of you guys are saying, Parling does lack grunt for a lock and if the likes of of Kitchener or Attwood gain his intellect in the lineout area he will be put under serious pressure and probably surplus to requirements.


However, despite Parling's seemingly wirey frame and lack of bulk he has played well in the test arena hence his Lions call up and Geoff has consistently kept making the step up in standard when asked to and uses offloads and outside shoulders to get around his lack of size. From relatively unknown Newcastle player, to being an essential cog in the Tigers 2010 Prem win and playing in massive HC fixtures to then running England's lineout and finally playing for the lions, where in the tour games he has played well IMO. Yesterday was probably the one occasion where he fell short. Also do not underestimate his ability at running the lineout, it is very highly regarded at Tigers and I can remember how much Skiv struggled when he tried to replace him in the 2011 season. Also he is a real leader, captaining Newcastle and Tigers a few time being the lineout caller and that was shown after the Brumbies game when he stood up and told everyone what was what. Don't underestimate ol' Geoff fellas. I think he is one of those players that's influence will be far more apparent when he isnt there.

He was clearly selected for his lineout ability, however our lineout did not function for us in this game. Now that may be due to poor throwing from the hooker, but as the lineout leader it is then Parling's responsibility to work things out. Given the success we had from the early lineouts where we went to the front and used the driving maul to good effect, when the hooker was struggling throwing to the tail, why not make the call and secure ball at the front and go that way. Sure it limits your attacking options somewhat, but it doesn't limit them half as much as chucking the ball to the opposition does.

Parling will always be a player rated more highly by those he works with (players and coaches) than those who watch.

Odd to see so many suggestions for Parling to be dropped. I don't think he has been that poor.

Okay I know he isn't actually as good in the lineout as we would want but none of the current crop of England 2nd rows are (bar of course Borthwick).

jeffwinger I disagree. I don't think England do have a lineout maestro. It's what England are missing in my opinion.

Someone needs to step up to the mark in that area. Kitchener I think has the most potential personally of the current guys in the squad.

Outside the squad I think George Kruis has the most potential.

Winning the lineout in the 78th minute vs the Aussies could have won the Lions the match.

I think the 2nd row slots are still very much up for grabs with no one cementing the spots in my mind.

I don't think Parling has been poor, he's a very consistent player but not at the level required at top Int level.

beshocked wrote:Odd to see so many suggestions for Parling to be dropped. I don't think he has been that poor.

Okay I know he isn't actually as good in the lineout as we would want but none of the current crop of England 2nd rows are (bar of course Borthwick).

jeffwinger I disagree. I don't think England do have a lineout maestro. It's what England are missing in my opinion.

Someone needs to step up to the mark in that area. Kitchener I think has the most potential personally of the current guys in the squad.

Outside the squad I think George Kruis has the most potential.

Winning the lineout in the 78th minute vs the Aussies could have won the Lions the match.

I think the 2nd row slots are still very much up for grabs with no one cementing the spots in my mind.

Not even Launchbury? Surely he's a cert in everyones squad at this time.

Heard this on the boards the other day, paraphrasing but:

France win a Grand Slam the year after the Lions tour

France won a Slam in 2002, a Championship in 2006 and a Slam in 2010. Not a bad "year after the Lions tour" record.

With this in mind, would it be worth giving our Lions a rest in the end of year test series? Now I'm not talking about Twelvetrees, Barritt or Wade, but the ones who have been out there for the whole tour.

They all have full domestic programs, the Six Nations in 2014, a tough tour to NZ in June 2014 and then we're into World Cup year. It could do these players a world of good to get three weeks off, in terms of the 2014 Six Nations and looking ahead to the NZ tour and indeed the World Cup.

I'd be very reluctant to weaken ourselves too much at home, especially considering it is a home World Cup in 2015 and we want to build up a psychological advantage around Twickenham that it's a difficult place to come and get a result, but this could be a matchday 23:

1. Marler
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw (C)
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Foden
16. Hartley
17. Mullan
18. Thomas
19. Lawes
20. Kvesic
21. Dickson
22. Flood
23. Eastmond

You can mix that 23 around a bit if you like, and also add in players like Paice, Doran-Jones, Slater, Johnson, Vunipola, Wigglesworth, Barritt, Tomkins, May, Strettle, Daly and Brown into contention if you like, but it is a good opportunity to give the players who performed in Argentina a shot against stronger opposition so we can better establish their International credentials. Although the team is inexperienced, I think we have a strong pack with no shortage of carriers, a great 9, an exciting 10/12 combo and pace in the outside backs. We've got the options of Hartley, Lawes and Flood to add experience from the bench, while also giving players like Thomas, Kvesic and Eastmond further opportunities to press their claims. We might not win all our Autumn games, but in the long term it could be the best thing for England.

Just a thought I've been mulling over the last couple of days, wondered what everyone else thought.

I think that's s good idea, unfortunately I can't see SL doing that at all though. He'll be out to win the series and if the players are fatigued then its their clubs problem.

Also getting a bit nervous about this WC our youngsters are good but history shows young teams don't win squat.

I can see the value in the suggestion, but then you'll have guys who won't play for England for almost a year, many of whom are among our top players. I don't imagine they would want that, and I don't think it can be reasonably expected that someone who has been out of the side for a year is still first choice upon his return.

There are a few players in there who should be seriously competing with Lions for the starting berth (Webber, Attwood, Care, Burns) but surely it would be better to jusge this on merit. If we're always resting half a team's worth of players will we ever begin to develop our first choice squad?

robbo,I think it's a great idea, or at least we shouldn't play our Lions in all 3 games (rest at least once) but I doubt we see it

Robbo - It's a very good point given the run to the world cup with an NZ tour inbetween. Personally I'd say it's a matter of balance with the individual players.

If you look at someone like Parling it's reasonable to assume that barring injury the Tigers could look to rest him early in the season with Kitchener and Slater to come in followed by Deacon and Mafi if needed. One injury to Kitchener or Slater and suddenly that becomes irrelevant though.

With some players the lack of game time in Aus could help next season though with Cole not starting the tests, Farrell sitting on the bench, Tuilagi only just returning for the 3rd plus Ben Youngs and Croft now dropped I'd hope that they can recover sufficiently to start the season quite fresh. Being relatively young will hopefully help Tuilagi, Youngs and Farrell significantly with recovery as well.

The problems with burnout are most likely with the front row players though I'd fear with Corbs, Vunipola and Youngs all featuring heavily in the tests and also likely to be needed immediately by their clubs it may be most pertinent with those guys. Unfortunately they are also guys that will be difficult to replace if they need resting.

I expect it'll mostly be a case of looking at how they are coping early season and deciding from there.

Just glad to be seeing Corbs playing full stop, let alone as a Lions prop. Given some of the stories it wasnt guaranteed

Not sure what The Lions Experience will have done for Wade, 36 and Barrett

Well, they'll probably have some new insights into how to beat Wales...

I'm spitting feathers Corbs is playing. He's been crocked so much recently the poor guy needs recovery time - not a support role to the Wales side.

Corbs will need to be rested as often as he's played by Saints if they're to get the best out of him across the season.

When is the EPS announced?

Marler can cover for Mako and Corbs if need be, and we have decent cover for Youngs with Webber, the idiot Hartley (should have been a Lion, silly boy...) and a few youngsters

yappysnap wrote:Corbs will need to be rested as often as he's played by Saints if they're to get the best out of him across the season.

When is the EPS announced?

This slightly worries me in that in the past, Saints seem to have not really rotated and their 1st Xv seems to have played a lot, with negative results at the end of the season. If Corbs plays as much as Tiny/Mujati did, I can't see him being fit for England duty.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I'm spitting feathers Corbs is playing. He's been crocked so much recently the poor guy needs recovery time - not a support role to the Wales side.

This is the problem we had with him at LI.

He's a great player, but he alternated between injury and international duty to the point where he was hardly playing for Irish at all.

I think as seen on the Lions tour and in the NZ game that whilst Mako is a great prospect and Marler has a much improved all round game they are still a bit behind Corbisiero at the moment. For Mako it's a case of his scrummaging still being a bit behind and for Marler he seems to be struggling to bring his work in the loose to the international stage like Corbs has.

Were Youngs rested I'd happily see Webber come in as his work in the loose, especially defensively, is very impressive. He's great at knocking guys back in the tackle. I just hope that we don't revert back to Hartley unless he shows real form early in the season. He hasn't kicked on as I thought he might in recent seasons and as shown in the final he can still be a liability on the pitch due to his short (or non existent) fuse. It's a shame really because you only have to go back to the SA tour last summer and he was looking so good at that level, hopefully he can rediscover that form.

One thing we would lose without Youngs that is quite easy to overlook is his work clearing out rucks. He's so strong and gets down so low he really does clear out about as well as anyone in the game at the moment which is so important for getting quick ball.

king_carlos wrote:I think as seen on the Lions tour and in the NZ game that whilst Mako is a great prospect and Marler has a much improved all round game they are still a bit behind Corbisiero at the moment. For Mako it's a case of his scrummaging still being a bit behind and for Marler he seems to be struggling to bring his work in the loose to the international stage like Corbs has.

Were Youngs rested I'd happily see Webber come in as his work in the loose, especially defensively, is very impressive. He's great at knocking guys back in the tackle. I just hope that we don't revert back to Hartley unless he shows real form early in the season. He hasn't kicked on as I thought he might in recent seasons and as shown in the final he can still be a liability on the pitch due to his short (or non existent) fuse. It's a shame really because you only have to go back to the SA tour last summer and he was looking so good at that level, hopefully he can rediscover that form.

One thing we would lose without Youngs that is quite easy to overlook is his work clearing out rucks. He's so strong and gets down so low he really does clear out about as well as anyone in the game at the moment which is so important for getting quick ball.

Agree with this 100% - the speed and angle at which youngs hits rucks is very handy. I'm also hoping we give attwood at least one game in the AI's to try and stake a claim. Launchbury for me has to be in the second row and it's a case of who plays with him for me.

king_carlos wrote:I think as seen on the Lions tour and in the NZ game that whilst Mako is a great prospect and Marler has a much improved all round game they are still a bit behind Corbisiero at the moment. For Mako it's a case of his scrummaging still being a bit behind and for Marler he seems to be struggling to bring his work in the loose to the international stage like Corbs has.

Until the second test against Argentina, I'd have agreed with you - but in that game Marler finally brought his club game to the international stage. We will need to see whether he can step up and do it against full-strength opposition, but it was a really encouraging performance and I think he will only be helped by the changes to the scrummaging laws (his main vulnerability has been binding on the arm by the TH, which should be far less prevalent if the refs and ARs actually enforce the laws). Mako and Joe are both much improved this summer and I imagine they will both get game time in the autumn - can't see Corbs lasting the whole series, alas.

As for the hookers, I would not be too worried to see Hartley dropped from the EPS. Youngs has proven that he has what it takes at the highest level and Webber is looking in excellent form. England are in the happy position of having a 5th choice hooker in Buchanan who looks nearly ready for the international stage, so they are not at all short of options.

The big question is who will come through on the TH side. There's no one quite at Cole's level and it will be interesting to see whether anyone steps up this season as a result of the engagement changes.

David Wilson has made a few cameos, and performed well enough in Argentina for me not to be wetting my pants at the thought of an injury to Dan Cole!

Pretty much agree with everything being said here regarding the props and hooker situations.

In my eyes, Corbs is undoubtedly the number 1 loosehead in the EPS, no question. He's a phenomenal player, and I'm chuffed for him that he's a late call up and is looking at the prospect of having started 2 full tests. It's a credit to all his hard work; not just overcoming the injuries, but changing his body shape and getting fitter to meet the needs of an international prop. Behind him, I'd say Marler is still second choice, with Mako a close third. Marler's summer tour was excellent, and he looked like a seasoned pro in the two tests. His work in the loose were very good too, and I hope he maintains it for the November tests.
For as good as Mako is in the loose, there are serious question marks over his scrummaging. Unfairly penalised in a few scrums maybe, but he has to improve.

I'd be more than happy for Youngs and Webber to be the EPS hookers, with Hartley dropped, though I don't see it happening. We may finally be able to say goodbye to Paice. Youngs is fantastic around the pitch, and I really think his criticism for his lightweight scrummaging is undeserved. Webber was very good on the summer tour. He's a proper old-school hooker, not just in the way he plays, but how he looks too. Hits hard and low, and has a nasty edge to him. Great stuff.

Wilson has really stepped up of late, he's been really impressive. Marler I'm still unconvinced with tbh, time will tell.

Decent front row options though:

1. Corbs/Mako
2. Youngs/Webber
3. Cole/Wilson

I agree Pooly, Wilson has been very good recently. Solid in the scrums, and more prominent than Cole in the loose (breakdown aside), we have two excellent tightheads to rely upon.

Agree with that blues. Wilson looked really good at the back end of the season for Bath and in Argentina. His scrummaging is on about the same level as Cole I'd say and whilst his breakdown work and tackling aren't as strong his carrying game is stronger than Cole. All in all I'd say we're pretty fortunate to have Cole/Wilson as first choice with Thomas consistently improving behind them.

Looking around the world there aren't actually that many sides you can say have a huge amount of depth at TH which is interesting.

all in all, I can't wait for the season to start and see what the EPS changes are made. Someone made the observation that for England the ARG and Lions tour give us a win-win for development and a close workout with our 2015 group rivals.

The EPS was announced 5th of July last season should be anytime soon. Haven't heard any updates about it anywhere though.

Cole's another who may need resting come AI's. He looked great last season but since the 6N's you can see his engine is running low, he's pretty much been a shadow of himself in the loose and his scrummaging is only passable. Without Castro at Tigers he'll be playing more as well. To be honest he has little to prove for England. Let Corbs and Cole both rest during the AI's, give Marler/Mako and Wilson a good run of games and then bring in the double C's for the 6N's fit and ready to fight.

mawhis wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I'm spitting feathers Corbs is playing. He's been crocked so much recently the poor guy needs recovery time - not a support role to the Wales side.

This is the problem we had with him at LI.

He's a great player, but he alternated between injury and international duty to the point where he was hardly playing for Irish at all.

No problem with Saints then the front rows are changed on mass at 60 minutes regardless of whats happening on the pitch

I'd like all three hookers retained in the EPS because I believe all three are a similar calibre of player. Therefore I would like to see the player who displays the best form given the shirt. If one guy isn't in the squad, you can be certain he'll be the one most fired up to play well for their club, and it'd be very tricky to pick a hooker from outside the squad if those in the squad are fit. Keep all 3, pick as you go. It's about giving yourself as much flexibility as possible.

Hartley hasn't always produced for England but I would still regard him as a solid international player. Webber has been brilliant in the last 6 months and failure to select him would send out the wrong message. Youngs I think goes without saying.

It's probably a fairly safe assumption that 5 props will be included (and we know who they will be). Considering that 6 front row forwards are required in every match day squad, it does not seem unreasonable to include 8 front rowers in the EPS.

8 front row 4 locks and 6 back row.If thats how the squad will look plus the 15 backs it will mean either haskell kvesic or billy v will have to settle for a place in the saxons.Who will it be?

sickofwendy wrote:8 front row 4 locks and 6 back row.If thats how the squad will look plus the 15 backs it will mean either haskell kvesic or billy v will have to settle for a place in the saxons.Who will it be?

I think Billy V will miss out and end up in the saxons whilst training with the eps. Realistically he's only going to get game time if Morgan is injured as I think he'll go with a flanker for the bench in the match day 23

Bathman_in_London wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Corbs will need to be rested as often as he's played by Saints if they're to get the best out of him across the season.

When is the EPS announced?

This slightly worries me in that in the past, Saints seem to have not really rotated and their 1st Xv seems to have played a lot, with negative results at the end of the season. If Corbs plays as much as Tiny/Mujati did, I can't see him being fit for England duty.

Agreed, bit gutted he went there. Mallinder seems clueless re rotations and resting.