England summer tour of Argentina - V2

by king_carlos Sat 08 Jun 2013, 7:55 pm

Cheers to all who posted on the first thread but having reached 1000 posts here's a second one for the remainder of the tour!

Link to the first thread - https://www.606v2.com/t42259-england-summer-tour-of-argentina

Link to the thread for 1st test - https://www.606v2.com/t45030-argentina-vs-england-810pm-ko

Let's hope for a game tonight that lives up to the promise of the players in each side. Ale

by Cumbrian Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:03 pm

I'm sacrificing the last of the evening sun here (prime beer garden territory) so this better be worth it!

by nobbled Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:09 pm

How long is the Argie bloody anthem??

by king_carlos Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:09 pm

I'm doing exactly the same Cumbrian so Fingers Crossed

Given how little the two sides have played together it's going to be tough game to predict and therefore should be interesting from some perspective whatever happens!

by HammerofThunor Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:10 pm

Fingers crossed for good game

by HammerofThunor Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:11 pm

nobbled wrote:How long is the Argie bloody anthem??

I remember going to the Old Trafford game and everyone got up a clapped thinking it was over and it just the instrumental intro! Erm

by nobbled Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:20 pm

First 3 points to England

by Cumbrian Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:23 pm

That's a couple of times I have seen England players over running the ball. They are probably anxious to make an impact, but they need to stay patient.

by Cumbrian Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:35 pm

What is Brown doing kicking possession away there?!?

by ChequeredJersey Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:35 pm

Cumbrian wrote:What is brown doing kicking possession away there?!?

It was silly. Still good position

by ChequeredJersey Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:36 pm

forward pass there

by ChequeredJersey Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:37 pm

good turnover play from both sides

by ChequeredJersey Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:37 pm

Wade's a Frak ninja

by HammerofThunor Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:39 pm

CJ there's a match thread here

https://www.606v2.com/t45030-argentina-vs-england-810pm-ko

by Cumbrian Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:39 pm

This could be a cricket score if this carries on...

Wade's pass was brilliant, so often in those situations England crash it up to the opposition's line until it gets turned over.

by Cumbrian Sat 08 Jun 2013, 8:55 pm

It might be because I am English and I am never happy, but I am really disappointed with the opposition. What is the point of flying half way across the world to test yourself only to get rubbish like this?

Taking nothing away from England, because they have played well but this hasn't been a contest so far.

by Cumbrian Sat 08 Jun 2013, 9:43 pm

Second time Strettle has knocked on with the line at his mercy.

by Cumbrian Sat 08 Jun 2013, 9:54 pm

Disappointing second half, I reckon England left at least 3 tries on the pitch. However, the game was already won.

by HammerofThunor Sat 08 Jun 2013, 10:06 pm

Cumbrian wrote:It might be because I am English and I am never happy, but I am really disappointed with the opposition. What is the point of flying half way across the world to test yourself only to get rubbish like this?

Taking nothing away from England, because they have played well but this hasn't been a contest so far.

We've done it with the 'weaker' game in the AI. RC is their priority now. As they said before the game the Argentinian season is pretty much 12 months now. What are they supposed to do?

by **LondonTiger** Sat 08 Jun 2013, 10:09 pm

What changes do people expect to see for next week?

I know this is being used as development, but PDJ is not good enough to start at LH, so Marler has to play and I would keep the front row as it is. I do not want to see Myall starting, so maybe give Lawes a runout and Launchbury to bench? BillyV and Morgan to swap places in the back row.

In the backs - I was really disappointed with how slow Dickson was getting to rucks but is Wiggy any better? Would like to see Burns and 26 go again, maybe a start for Eastmond. Foden could come in and finally on the wing, Strettle finished well in the first half but buggered up two chances in the secon, so how about seeing Yarde or May.

by Cumbrian Sat 08 Jun 2013, 10:37 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:It might be because I am English and I am never happy, but I am really disappointed with the opposition. What is the point of flying half way across the world to test yourself only to get rubbish like this?

Taking nothing away from England, because they have played well but this hasn't been a contest so far.

We've done it with the 'weaker' game in the AI. RC is their priority now. As they said before the game the Argentinian season is pretty much 12 months now. What are they supposed to do?

I don't mind it being so one sided against the genuinely developing nations like USA or Canada or the games against the Pacific Island teams in AI's (it gives them a financial helping hand). It bothers me because I have been looking forward to this game for about a fortnight and it was over as a contest halfway through the first half. I know that they are saving their best players for the RC but I can't believe that that those were the best players they had available. When have you ever seen an Argentinian scrum dominated like it was in the first half?

by HammerofThunor Sat 08 Jun 2013, 10:55 pm

It wasn't their best team. It also wasn't ours (in theory). It's annoying but I can't blame them.

Tiger, my 23 would probably be

Marler
Webber
Doran-Jones
Attwood
Lawes
Wood
Kvesic
Vunipola
Wiggles worth
Burns
Yarde
Twelvetrees
Eastman
Wade
Foden

Paice (shrug)
Thomas
Wilson
Launchbury
Morgan
Dickson
Joseph
Brown

Or something like that

by Mr Bounce Sat 08 Jun 2013, 11:09 pm

I've seen it more than once today in that people want to replace Morgan with Vunipola. Ben Morgan was perhaps our best player today; certainly the best forward out there. He made an impact whenever he got the chance.

by flankertye Sat 08 Jun 2013, 11:13 pm

Strettle has to go, not impressed at all today.

by king_carlos Sat 08 Jun 2013, 11:25 pm

LondonTiger wrote:What changes do people expect to see for next week?

I know this is being used as development, but PDJ is not good enough to start at LH, so Marler has to play and I would keep the front row as it is. I do not want to see Myall starting, so maybe give Lawes a runout and Launchbury to bench? BillyV and Morgan to swap places in the back row.

In the backs - I was really disappointed with how slow Dickson was getting to rucks but is Wiggy any better? Would like to see Burns and 26 go again, maybe a start for Eastmond. Foden could come in and finally on the wing, Strettle finished well in the first half but buggered up two chances in the secon, so how about seeing Yarde or May.

Agree with much of that LT.

Lawes I actually felt looked good up until his failure to release when told (rightly or wrongly he should listen). That indiscretion on the line followed by his foolish flop on the tackled player to get sin binned was disappointing. I'd definitely like to see Atwood given another game so as you say Launchberry to bench and Lawes starting.

As you say the SH options are frustrating and I'd really liked to have seen Thomas stay on tour or someone like Robson given a go.

1.Marler 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Atwood 5.Lawes 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola
9.Dickson 10.Burns 11.May 12.Twelvetrees 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Foden
16.Buchanan 17.PDJ 18.Thomas 19.Launchberry 20.Morgan 21.Wigglesworth 22.Eastmond 23.Brown

by valtrepkos Sat 08 Jun 2013, 11:33 pm

I'd leave the pack for next week and just bring eastmond in for jj, yarde for strettle and foden for Brown. Also Buchanon to the bench along with Jonny May.

by HammerofThunor Sat 08 Jun 2013, 11:34 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:I've seen it more than once today in that people want to replace Morgan with Vunipola. Ben Morgan was perhaps our best player today; certainly the best forward out there. He made an impact whenever he got the chance.

This tour isn't about putting out the best team. We need to build redundancy. Morgan is first choice. Give Vunipola more of a run to see how he does

by GloriousEmpire Sat 08 Jun 2013, 11:58 pm

Morgan is the best 8 in the world in terms of impact ball carrying as I've said many a time before. I'm stunned he's not a Lion.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 09 Jun 2013, 12:15 am

Mr Bounce wrote:I've seen it more than once today in that people want to replace Morgan with Vunipola. Ben Morgan was perhaps our best player today; certainly the best forward out there. He made an impact whenever he got the chance.

This tour was about building options. It would be interesting to see how billy goes starting a test.

by king_carlos Sun 09 Jun 2013, 12:33 am

Agreed that Morgan was very good today. Morgan, Webber, Twelvetrees and Wade in the first half were brilliant I thought.

Morgan, Twelvetrees and Wade were picking great lines, breaking tackles and showing great passing/handling skills to create tries for others and score some themselves. Webber was brilliant in contact I thought making powerful tackles and creating turnovers from nothing. He was also good a set piece.

Ratings out of 10:

Marler - 6 - A good first half but had some silly moments in the second which loses him a point.
Webber - 8
Wilson - 6 - Not the huge impact of the other week but solid nonetheless.
Atwood - 7.5 - Threw his weight around well and imposed himself on the game.
Launchberry - 7 - Another good game as we've come to expect from him. Nothing spectacular but very effective in everything he does.
Wood - 7 - See Launchberry.
Kvesic - 7 - Did lots of dirty work in and around rucks I felt plus showed some carrying, can still improve but seems to be growing from game to game.
Morgan - 8.5

Dickson - 6 - Struggled to provide quick ball for a lot of the first half despite forward dominance.
Burns - 7.5 - Ran the game well and showed some better defensive skills than many make him out to have.

Strettle - 4 - Errr yeah, got a try early on but not much else he'll like to remember. Missed a basic tackle on their flanker and butchered a couple of chances.
Twelvetrees - 8
Joseph - 7 - A better game from him but still looks rusty, showed some nice touches however.
Wade - 8 - He went looking for work all game and was effective when he found it. Also showed very good hands to create tries for others.
Brown - 7.5 - He's been given a chance in his best position and has really showed what a difference a counter attacking full back makes. I felt he kicked unnecessarily a couple of times but overall had a good game.

Paice - 5 - Shone due to his lack of effectiveness really. Doesn't offer much physicality or much anything really from what we've seen this tour.
Lawes - 6 - Looked good in a short space of time making big hits and throwing his weight around, then came some stupid moments to get himself binned.
Vunipola - 8 - Very strong in contact as always and showing great control at the base of the scrum.
Wigglesworth - 5 - Much the same as Dickson
Foden - 7 - Some good touches in a short space of time, seems to be back to his best which is great to see.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun 09 Jun 2013, 6:24 am

Amazing what can happen when you have an 8 & 15 playing in their proper positions isn't it?

Great first half & as posted above Morgan, 12Ts, Wade were outstanding. They should all start in the Autumn & beyond.

Not great opposition but a classy first half shows the strength in depth of the squad & other players like Webber, Billy V, Burns, JJ should be pushing for 2015.

May needs to come in for Strettle for the 2nd test.

by Fluxy Sun 09 Jun 2013, 6:59 am

Can't see many changes being warranted for the next game.

The pack remains the same, they looked very good. And there was just something right about seeing that back row pack down in their correct positions.

Only changes I would make would be to bring in Yarde for Strettle and put May on the bench for Foden, and Myall for Lawes.
We know what the lads originally in the side can bring, its a chance to try something different.

At a push the only other changes in the starting side would be Eastmond for JJ, but I'd would like to see JJ and 36 play together again and see if something could flourish in what has been our weakest area for a while now.

by EnglishReign Sun 09 Jun 2013, 9:21 am

Wade is absolutely amazing, you just know he'll dance past the first man. Twelvetrees is another special player - his sublime offloading in the tackle is a joy to watch.

I think Burns is too wary of this "knowing when it's on" chat. His best games are when he creates something out of nothing - needs to play his own game and not get sucked into conservative play. Some of his passing last night suggested being caught in two minds.

I'd start:

Marler
Webber
Wilson
Attwood
Launchbury
Wood
Kvesic
Billy V (Seen enough of Ben M)

Wiggles
Burns
Yarde
36
Eastmond
May (Seen enough of Wade)
Foden (back to his best imo)

by Cumbrian Sun 09 Jun 2013, 10:09 am

The thing about Wade is that he doesn't just score tries, he makes them as well. He seems to understand the nuances of the game, as demonstrated by the little delay he put on the pop pass for 36's try. You'd think that he has to have a very good chance of keeping his place going into the AIs.

I would basically keep the same team except swap May for Strettle and Foden for Brown and bring Yarde up to the bench. Strettle just seems to be taking up space in the squad. I personally think when Foden is playing regularly, he is a better player than Brown and will take the 15 shirt again.

by SirJohnnyEnglish Sun 09 Jun 2013, 10:23 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:Morgan is the best 8 in the world in terms of impact ball carrying as I've said many a time before. I'm stunned he's not a Lion.

Louis Picamoles says hi!

by Cumbrian Sun 09 Jun 2013, 10:28 am

Using the squad/ team that played last night, which unavailable players would you put in to improve it in the Autumn. I'd probably go something like:

01. Alex Corbisiero
02. Tom Youngs (But Webber seems to be pushing as back up)
03. Dan Cole
04. Joe Launchbury
05. Geoff Parling (although Attwood is pushing for a place too)
06. Tom Wood
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Ben Morgan

09. Ben Youngs
10. Owen Farrell (Although Freddie Burns/ Flood are not far away)

11. Christian Wade
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Ashton (But his position is under threat from May/ Yarde)
15. Ben Foden

by Cumbrian Sun 09 Jun 2013, 10:30 am

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Morgan is the best 8 in the world in terms of impact ball carrying as I've said many a time before. I'm stunned he's not a Lion.

Louis Picamoles says hi!

He was being a bit hyperbolic, but if Morgan stays fit I believe that people will be talking about him as a genuine rival to Big Lou.

by king_carlos Sun 09 Jun 2013, 11:00 am

Cumbrian wrote:Using the squad/ team that played last night, which unavailable players would you put in to improve it in the Autumn. I'd probably go something like:

01. Alex Corbisiero
02. Tom Youngs (But Webber seems to be pushing as back up)
03. Dan Cole
04. Joe Launchbury
05. Geoff Parling (although Attwood is pushing for a place too)
06. Tom Wood
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Ben Morgan

09. Ben Youngs
10. Owen Farrell (Although Freddie Burns/ Flood are not far away)

11. Christian Wade
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Chris Ashton (But his position is under threat from May/ Yarde)
15. Ben Foden

A looking team there Cumbrian. The main thing for me will be the EPS I feel rather than the side from it (I say that now anyway). If SL gets the EPS right then, given the amount of talent coming through, the side which is selected should be a strong one and the arguments about that side hopefully based on form/personal preference of individuals - rather than desperation fueling the debate as we've seen at times in recent years! Erm

If we see Lancaster show a willingness to cut away players who he likes but aren't the best option in favour of others then I'll be happy with whatever side comes from the squad. For instance I'd like to see an EPS such as below.

Props - Corbs, Vunipola, Marler, Cole, Wilson - Largely pick themselves
Hooker - Webber, Youngs - I thought Webber was brilliant yesterday and would stick with him
Second row - Launchberry, Atwood, Parling, Lawes - Slater pushing very hard
Flanker - Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Kvesic + one of Haskell or Johnson
Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

Scrum half - Youngs, Care
Fly half - Burns, Farrell, Flood - It's nice that in a few key positions (props, N8, SH, FH) the best options are clear cut now
Centre - Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Barritt + one of Joseph or Daly depending on form - Allen is pushing Barritt very hard though
Wing - Wade, May, Yarde
Full back - Brown, Foden + Goode or Tait - dropping Goode would be harsh but Brown is showing just what a counter attacking 15 can do and I want pace in the backs again so if Tait continues his form of late I'd have him there.

If we see a squad like that I'd be pretty happy with whatever side comes out of it as long as it isn't a case of Wood at N8, Brown on the wing, etc!

by kingelderfield Sun 09 Jun 2013, 1:30 pm

Lets be honest for the majority of the season farrell was not the form/first choice half at sarries this year, so lets see what his form is like next season.

I'm obviously a fan of burns and would persevere with him, however for me I thought it was really interesting how away from england undoubtedly it was leicesters captain, flood, who had the strongest end to the season. He and Foden have both shown real passion not to let the dream go.

by Alex_Germany Sun 09 Jun 2013, 1:39 pm

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Morgan is the best 8 in the world in terms of impact ball carrying as I've said many a time before. I'm stunned he's not a Lion.

Louis Picamoles says hi!

Before or after he dropped the ball over the line versus NZ yesterday?

Morgan's not in the Lions because the squad was selected based on the performances in the last round of the 6N only.

by robbo277 Sun 09 Jun 2013, 3:25 pm

I like King Carlos's picks and mine would be similar. Are EPS squads 32 or 33 players? I have a feeling it increased to 33 when they increased match day squads to 23 as Carlos has picked.

My 33 would be:

Cole, Corbisiero, Marler, Vunipola, Wilson
Webber, Youngs
Attwood, Lawes, Launchbury, Parling
Croft, Haskell, Kvesic, Robshaw, Wood
Morgan, Vunipola

Care, Youngs
Burns, Farrell, Flood
Barritt, Joseph, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi
Ashton, May, Wade, Yarde
Brown, Foden

Saxons:

Doran-Jones, Mullan, Sinckler Thomas, Wood
Buchanan, Hartley, Lindsay
Garvey, Kitchener, Kruis, Myall, Slater
Clark, Fraser, Johnson, Wallace
Waldrom

L Dickson, K Dickson, Simpson
Ford, Myler
Allen, Burrell, Daly, Tomkins, Trinder
Biggs, Monye, Strettle
Goode, Tait

I think there's a good mix of senior reserves and promising youngsters in that Saxons squad, with Slater, Fraser and Daly three players who look very promising.

My Autumn International matchday 33 would depend completely on form from the start of the season, especially rounds 1 and 2 of the Heineken Cup. I think if Lancaster gets his selections right, we could be challenging for 3 Autumn wins - which will be important in the build-up to a home World Cup, and then look to kick on in the Six Nations.

by king_carlos Sun 09 Jun 2013, 4:17 pm

I think that technically the size is 33 now Robbo as you say.

In practice that squad size tends to mean little with players coming and going due to injury, guys being sent back to clubs for game time etc. I'd highly doubt whether we've actually had an EPS sized squad at any of the training camps for a while!

by sickofwendy Sun 09 Jun 2013, 5:40 pm

The most pleasing thing for me is that we are starting to see a squad of players develop now.
If we let nature take its course we will have a fine group for the next world cup and way beyond.
More or less every young player lancaster has backed has repaid the faith in them.

by king_carlos Wed 12 Jun 2013, 4:11 pm

Twelvetrees called up for the Lions - great honour for him (and a good choice by Gatland I feel) but leaves us a bit short at 12 for the weekend.

Eastmond can play a bit there but is really too lightweight for an International centre IMO and alongside Joseph would look a bit weak defensively.
Burrell is the other option who whilst bigger and more physical wouldn't really offer the sort of distribution I'd like to see in the centres.

1.Marler 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Launchberry 6.Wood 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan
9.Dickson 10.Burns 11.Yarde 12.Eastmond 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Foden
16.Buchanan 17.Doran-Jones 18.Thomas 19.Lawes 20.Vunipola 21.Wigglesworth 22.May 23.Brown

That's probably what I'd go for now, doesn't look too balanced it my eyes but there's certainly pace in the backs! Also going to be a real test in defence for the pack I feel as the light weight and inexperienced backs are going to need a big performance from the forwards to stop them on the gain line and prevent quick ball.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 12 Jun 2013, 5:08 pm

I would prefer Eastmond ahead of Burrell,

by jeffwinger Wed 12 Jun 2013, 9:48 pm

Eastmond is the better player now and has the greater potential moving forwards, so he should be given the opportunity to start this game. It is clear that the management are keen for him to be involved, so I expect we will see him start. However, his combination with Burns is likely to go 1 of 2 ways. If they click we could see some fireworks. There is so much pace, creativity and skill there that we could be in for a treat. Equally, they may be a little similar, they may dance around each other and lack a bit of go forward. Ideally you would play a powerful, hard running 13 alongside these two at 10/12. We don't really have that as an option without Tompkins on tour (not a fan of Burrell at 13 - his distribution isn't up to scratch).

Also, while neither are weak defenders, neither are carrying much weight. They should be ok but Argentina will look to target their channel with heavy carriers and should get over the gainline. The back row will need to be sharp to the fact that they don't have a chopper at 12 any more. (Incidentally, I don't buy the claim Burns is a poor defender - the stats are useless without context and anyone who regularly watches him will tell you he is always committed and never misses an important one.)

by HammerofThunor Wed 12 Jun 2013, 10:14 pm

Sounds like Yarde is starting according to BBC. Hopefully with Wade. I've been impressed with Yarde when I've seen him.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 13 Jun 2013, 7:15 am

Aye rumours are just two changes, Yarde for Strettle and Eastmond for 36.

by nobbled Thu 13 Jun 2013, 7:28 am

Alex_Germany wrote:
SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Morgan is the best 8 in the world in terms of impact ball carrying as I've said many a time before. I'm stunned he's not a Lion.

Louis Picamoles says hi!

Before or after he dropped the ball over the line versus NZ yesterday?

Morgan's not in the Lions because the squad was selected based on the performances in the last round of the 6N only.

How do you explain Lydiate and Matt Stevens inclusion then?

by Geordie Thu 13 Jun 2013, 9:34 am

Yarde will add a bit of power and offer the availability of some crash ball...if we go for a midfield of Burns Eastmond Joseph.

Im looking forward to seeing.

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