England summer tour of Argentina - V2

First topic message reminder :

Cheers to all who posted on the first thread but having reached 1000 posts here's a second one for the remainder of the tour!

Link to the first thread - https://www.606v2.com/t42259-england-summer-tour-of-argentina

Link to the thread for 1st test - https://www.606v2.com/t45030-argentina-vs-england-810pm-ko

Let's hope for a game tonight that lives up to the promise of the players in each side.

and Yarde for Foden.

I just cant see why a continuation of managers make these baffling decisions...
 
Johno used to do it and others before him.
 
Why pick Paice, when he offers nothing, isnt an experienced international doesnt offer leadership etc etc...over a young guy like Buchanan who has so much more potential and will benefit from gametime against a decent opposition.

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Personally i really hope Burns continues on...he looks the real deal to me.

Let's hope so. On paper Gloucester really should be top four every year, but for some reason they just haven't kicked on. Maybe with the extra year's experience for Morgan, Burns and Twelvetrees they'll do it next season.

You have to take into account there are stronger sets of forwards than Glaws, so the backs don't get the platform they could.  More importantly Burns has only just turned 23 and this was his first full season as a starter and the same can be said for the likes of May and Twelvetrees. I think there have been some very high expectations of them based upon their potential, but as expected it has only really been this year they have started to deliver on that.  The most encouraging sign for me about Burns is that he has always been able to do the fancy stuff, but he has vastly improved his place kicking and has one of, if not the highest ratio of successful kicks in the Jeff and he has learnt to do some pretty decent tactical kicks.  There's still lots of room for improvement, but he does appear to keep pushing forward, so let's hope this transfers onto the England scene too.

Yep, May would have been good to see but my issue isn't Yarde being picked over him this week, it was Strettle being picked over either of them last week! A game each for May/Yarde would have been ideal!

Geordie - It's a question many sides continually find themselves asking but at the end of the day I think it's conservatism with coaches under so much pressure these days they'd rather stick with what they know. I'm by no means saying I agree with that as I think the sign of a good coach is his ability to cut players away for someone who could be better. As a cricket fan as well Mark Waugh always comes to mind here as he was dropped whilst still playing well in order to improve that Aus side.

As for the Jonny May argument I've been calling for his selection for a couple of seasons now as I really feel he could be the real deal. His pace and finishing are excellent and his core skills are miles ahead of guys like Ashton and Strettle with his passing and defence very strong. Given he's been left out for Yarde here (another huge talent) I can accept it but seeing him left out for Strettle in the first test really frustrated me. If a players good enough they are old enough in my book so next season I'd like to see the below wing options regardless of how young they are.

EPS - Wade, Yarde, May, Ashton
Saxons - Sharples, Eastmond, Monye, Strettle - with Nowell and hopefully Benjamin pushing very hard for Monye and Strettle's places.

HongKongCherry wrote:

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Personally i really hope Burns continues on...he looks the real deal to me.

Let's hope so. On paper Gloucester really should be top four every year, but for some reason they just haven't kicked on. Maybe with the extra year's experience for Morgan, Burns and Twelvetrees they'll do it next season.

You have to take into account there are stronger sets of forwards than Glaws, so the backs don't get the platform they could.  More importantly Burns has only just turned 23 and this was his first full season as a starter and the same can be said for the likes of May and Twelvetrees. I think there have been some very high expectations of them based upon their potential, but as expected it has only really been this year they have started to deliver on that.  The most encouraging sign for me about Burns is that he has always been able to do the fancy stuff, but he has vastly improved his place kicking and has one of, if not the highest ratio of successful kicks in the Jeff and he has learnt to do some pretty decent tactical kicks.  There's still lots of room for improvement, but he does appear to keep pushing forward, so let's hope this transfers onto the England scene too.

Don't forget the injuries to Burns, Sinbad, May, Trinder, B Morgan, Cowan throughout the season, which have caused proceedings to stutter a little. Keep everyone fit and we can get top 4.

I'm delighted for Yarde - he is a class player and Wade, well, one of the most talked about talents in the rugby world right now.

I just think this tour was an opportunity to experiment with all of the players and, given the poor opposition, is largely unimportant anyway. Would've been a confidence booster for May and Buchanan to gain a cap each.

Reign -

These two wingers Yarde & Wade are the most exciting players England have had in this position for as long as I can recall. 

Together with Johnny May,Brown & Foden (possibly Ashton if he finds some form?) the back 3 has so much potential.

EnglishReign wrote:

Don't forget the injuries to Burns, Sinbad, May, Trinder, B Morgan, Cowan throughout the season, which have caused proceedings to stutter a little. Keep everyone fit and we can get top 4.

Not going to happen. Every team has injuries - and especially more so if squad depth is not the highest so big names cannot get the down time needed.

Also if they stay fit, Burns and BMorgan could miss more games next season due to England duties than they did this due to injury. Your tight 5 need sorting out before you can really threaten Top 4 consistently.

As far as I can tell, that is not a stronger line-up. A number of changes, but in the main it is last weeks bench starting instead.

Bustos is a decent prop, that's about all I can say about that team

ChequeredJersey wrote:Bustos is a decent prop, that's about all I can say about that team

Well he managed to last the full 80mins last week. Much of that time moving backwards at a rate of knots

Was Agulla playing last week?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Was Agulla playing last week?

this Agulla (Belisario note, not Horacio) came off the bench on about 60 minutes.

Oh

I expect a cricket score

Yeah, i think so Eddie...

But then i just want to see the England team playing well...maybe trying some back moves etc...good time to try things....and keep up the forward / backs link play.

Yep. If we can just see for 80 minutes what we saw in the first half of last week's match, I would be a happy man.

Oh, and I want to see Kvesic make 30 tackles. He was a tad lazy last week.

Spot on bluestone! Did he actually miss any of those 29?!

I'd be pretty happy just seeing what we saw in the first half last week for just 80 minutes - the extra 10 might be pushing it a bit

Jesus, I can't believe I did that lostinwales. Please don't tell anyone else.

Not sure Chjw131! Didn't look like it.

In all seriousness though, I would like to see him get his hands on the ball a little more. Bring his club-carrying form to the international stage.

To be fair, bluestonevedder, if we played the Argentine XV at football, it would probably be a closer match

Perhaps he was suggesting we should carry on playing during half time??

Anyway, while I'd love to see the first half performance from last week over the full 80 minutes I do think a touch of caution would be prudent.  The impression I got before last weekend was that the Argentine squad was very much an unknown, and to an extent I think that is still the case.  Unless anyone has seen much more of their players than I have do we really know how good/bad that performance was by their own standards?  It's quite possible that they will put in a much better shift tomorrow and make England's job much harder.  So while I'd be happy with the performance from the first half last week, I don't think that would necessarily equate to a cricket score.

I thought Argentina were very poor last week. But they'll be more aggressive this time round. If we get a similar score and play nearish the level of our first half that, I think, would represent a good performance and result. 

This is a poor Argie side, but it will be fired up at least.

I think they'll have done a lot of work on their set piece as well.  Limits to what they can do with the scrum in a week, but I expect their lineout to be significantly improved.

Yeh, their set piece last week was very poor, especially for a team that actually had decent, sizeable props. Their lineout was pretty much no existant, though Attwood did a great job calling.

Generally speaking, a very pleasing tour.  Finally we were able to release the shackles of Lancaster's originals and see some exciting talent produce top class attacking performances.  More of the same please!

LH - Marler played very well during both tests and is unfortunate that Englnad have another 2 young talented looseheads with the Lions.  Should be a position of strength for years to come with these 3 plus perhaps Mullan if he comes on at Wasps.  I think with the depth of talent here selection should come down to form and fitness.  If all are at the top of their game I think I'd go 1. Corbs 17. Mako, with Marler also in the EPS, but I wouldnt be annoyed to see any of the top 3 anywhere within the squad.

Hooker - Webber has been absolutely brilliant this tour and may have pushed himself to the top of the tree.  Every aspect of his game has been exceptional, and following a strong season with Bath he looks to finally be the player Shaun Edwards was so excited about years ago at Wasps.  We also have Youngs who looks to have won the starting test jersey for the Lions and Hartley who, despite some opinions otherwise, I still believe to be a solid international. Also Tom Lindsay and Rob Buchanan coming through.  Completely open for me at the moment, but I really like the look of Webber.

TH - Cole is still one of the outstanding tightheads in the world and I'm quite disappointed that he hasn't really had the opportunity to claim the test spot with the Lions, although he hasn't looked at his best when he has played.  Wilson has been great on this tour and in the last 6 months for Bath.  While I don't think the 3 shirt is up for grabs, we can stop worrying what terrors might befal us if Cole gets injured.  Henry Thomas did okay too and I like the look of Shaun Knight at Gloucester.

SR - Launchbury continued to excel and fitness allowing, looks to be developing into a real world class player.  Apart from the baby face, he looks like a seasoned international.  Attwood is the guy who has really stepped up this tour.  He's an absolute brute in open play, charging through the middle of opposition defences and chopping runners down like an oversized Joe Worsley, while also proving the Geoff Parling isn't the only man in the universe capable of leading a line out.  I have to hold my hand up and say I've never been particularly fond of Parling.  I think his line out skills are overhyped - yes he's good but Croft is better and England's line out was really poor during this years 6N - and he is too lightweight around the park.  Lawes has shown his usual combination of power and dopeyness.  He still needs to kick on but is a good bench option for now.  I would have the squad as it has been on this tour, however I believe Parling is one of Lancaster's irreplaceables, so he will probably come back.

BR - I've made it known many times that my preference is 6. Croft 7. Wood 8. Morgan. I don't really understand those saying it would be imbalanced because Wood plays the majority of his club rugby at 7 and I don't buy into this 'proper 7' nonsense.  Both are world class players and both are solid all round flankers.  We would have a great line out and Morgan is there to do the tight carrying that is the one thing lacking in Croft and Wood.  Been quite impressed with Kvesic this tour.  He hasn't been doing the flashy stuff but he has so much energy and gets through an unbelievable amount of work.  At one point last night I made a concious effort to watch him closely while Argentina had the ball.  During 12 phases he made 4 tackles and was second man in jackalling on another 4 occasions.  He could be a bench option as he can also cover 6 and 8 but I'm not sure he'd have the impact I'm looking for, and the bench isn't a productive use of his huge engine.  Robshaw another option, but I have similar reservations about his effectiveness from the bench.  So the 20 shirt is open in my mind.

N8 - Morgan showed us what we missed in the 6N and cemented his place at 8 for the foreseeable future.  Billy V did well when he came on but I think he still needs a lot of work on his all round game before he is ready for international rugby.  Saracens should improve his basics but hopefully he wont lose the power or flair.  An injury to Morgan is still a concern.

SH - the real disappointment of this tour.  I thought Danny Care should have toured as he could have benefited from more international game time and I think he would have relished the role of senior player.  I'd have also taken a young 9 like Dan Robson or Ben Spencer.  We know exactly what Dickson and Wigglesworth can/can't do and this hasn't changed.  Both are decent club players but a notch or 2 below international level.  Youngs and Care will continue to share the 9 and 21 shirts and this is a strength.

FH - I've been touting Burns as the future all year and I'm glad he was given the chance to impress.  He played a much more structured game than may be natural to him, but there were still hints of the trademark flair.  Some are probably a bit disappointed that we didn't see any dummy-step-gas breaks that he's been doing all year for Gloucester but I'm certain this is a result of the game plan.  Also, he was starting his first 2 internationals - you can't expect the full repertoire straight away.  The pleasing thing was his game management and defence, both of which have been questioned.  I haven't questioned these things having watched him for the past 2 years with Gloucester and hopefully these questions will dry up now more have had the chance to watch.  Myler also looked ok in his cameo yesterday - I'd been concerned about him as 4th choice, but I think he'd be fine if we ever need him before Ford/Slade/whoever else step up.  For me it's 10. Burns 22. Farrell with Flood in the EPS for 1 more season.

C - Dear Mr. Lancaster, please please pleeeeaaaase move on from Brad Barritt!  Twelvetrees is the outstanding 12.  Eastmond also looked good yesterday but there are still questions and concerns over him in a closer game.  I'd be very tempted to have him at 23.  Tuilagi will obviously come back into the 13 shirt and I think with all these other weapons around him he will be far more dangerous used more sparingly, and used more in the way Leicester use him, i.e. keeping him back til later phases, allowing him to attack on an outside arc and mix it up a bit as opposed to first phase crash into the opposite back row every time.  Having Morgan back in the team will help with this as well.  Joseph showed good flashes e.g. setting up Strettle's try last week, but overall I wasn't too impressed.  He was lucky to tour after a quiet season with Irish, but the talent is still there and he may develop into a top player.  Other options in Lowe, Trinder and Tompkins still deserve a chance.  But please, No Barritt.

W - Wade fulfilled his promise in the first match and hopefully he can keep this up and nail down 1 wing position.  Strettle must have had his time now.  May was a little disappointing yesterday after I spent all week moaning about his non inclusion, but sometimes it just doesn't happen for wingers - most of the attack seemed to go down the other side and when he did have the ball he linked up well, but there wasn't the opportunity to make a break.  Yarde was impressive but I think he is still some way short of ready, there's just something I'm not sure about.  Physically he's ready but I think he lacks creativity and he was caught out in defence v the Barbarians.  With a much more creative midfield and carrying threat from the forwards, Ashton's tracking runs could be really dangerous.  He suffered some ridiculously unjust criticism - he wasn't that bad, the game plan just didn't suit his style.  Yes his tackling was poor but I'd guess 90% of that problem was because of all the hype getting in his head.  Other options could stake a claim, Sharples, Biggs, Eastmond could play on the wing.  Still quite open and I'd be happy with most of the options, except Strettle.

FB - this was Brown's chance to prove that he is an international fullback.  I don't think he took it.  He was better than Goode, but Foden on form is twice the player.  I wouldn't hesitate in playing Foden, but Brown still deserves a place in the EPS.

It was one game only - but May didnt look quite as impressive as Wade or Yarde. He looked good though - and I'd be pretty happy if these 3 were our wingers for the next couple of years. Strettle is done. Ashton does some things really well but I think all three of these players are more rounded players

I was impressed with Yarde, really like the look of him.  Very fast with great acceleration but also surprisingly strong.  He took his first try incredibly well and picked a nice line for his second, will be looking forward to see how he develops.  

My pick of the bunch was probably Webber who i thought was outstanding.  Carried, rucked and tackled all day long and solid in the lineout.  I see him as another solid option similar to Hartley with Youngs (and buchanan if he continues to develop) as being the more "flair" like hookers.  Lindsay is also another option if he sorts out his darts.

jeff - Parling has a cracking work rate and in my view. As well as doing an awful lot more round the field than Lawes he's also not prone to the brain farts.  So for me it's Parling over Lawes for now, though either way I think they are fighting for the bench spot given the form of Attwood and Launchbury. 
 
There's also no way I'd have Farrell on the bench over Flood either.  Flood has limitations, but has a decent kicking percentage and has got all but the most dour combination of backs firing, he's only really looked poor when behind a pack that is being pummelled - but almost all FHs do, even Carter last November.  Farrell is young and could get there, but for me has an awful lot of work to do on his attacking game before he should be playing at test level again.
 
I'm also uncertain about the criticism of Dickson.  I thought he had a decent shift, while Care has never transferred his club form to the international game.  If it was down to me I'd have Dickson on the bench going forward.
 
Otherwise agree with most of the rest.
 
I thought it was a real shame that Foden didn't start the second test as well.  He's been in great form in recent weeks and looks to have really got back to his best.
 
Overall it was a great game and a fantastic England performance.  Scrum aside I thought that Argentina played pretty well, and would probably have pushed most 6Ns squads 1st teams hard with the shift they put in.

Some good signs but some average stuff as well. 

Positives for me were the set-piece - we have a 2nd string front row that can hold their own there, a 3rd choice hooker who looks a good all-rounder with a good throw, a SR in Attwood who can call a lineout AND bring some grunt.

Also, some very good continuity and phase play. Generally good aggressive rucking. Excellent off-loads in the first game and some good support lines. As well as some good, aggressive defence in the wider channels. 

In terms of personnel - I never rated Attwood but I thought his defence was very solid, the only guy in the tight who smashed his man back - I think he's way ahead of Lawes for me, who still carries to little effect. Kvesic looked like a player who could grow into the 7 position, IF given the chance. I actually think his jackaling needs a little work, but his all-round game in terms of work-rate, support, handling, carrying and passing was very solid. Given how young he is, he should push on and challenge. 

We also had a collection of backs comfortable on the ball, with ball in two hands, who can distribute and have pace. The Argentinian defence helped by having a very passive defensive line, but the backs looked so much more inventive than previous teams. JJ was no great shakes, but apart from power, his skill-set is vastly superior to Manu's. 

Negatives for me were a complete inability to prevent pick and go drives around the ruck. Our tight defence MUST be improved because every team will expose this otherwise. Our off-loads also dried up in the second game, although I think the opposition shut this down a lot. Lastly, Ben Morgan got targeted in the second game. I think this proves that he can't be expected to do ALL the carrying - we need a core of decent carriers.

Very impressive wins for England. Some new players that may be involved for years to come have been unearthed (especially Twelvetrees, Wade, Burns). Why did Argentina put out such a guff squad though, and won't they now be undercooked for the RC?

The Saint wrote:Very impressive wins for England. Some new players that may be involved for years to come have been unearthed (especially Twelvetrees, Wade, Burns). Why did Argentina put out such a guff squad though, and won't they now be undercooked for the RC?

Their problem is that in general their best players are in France, with some in England. The Northern hemisphere season runs until End of May/Early June. The rugby championship starts in Mid August, with the squad coming together in Mid July. Players need a break, as physically the human body is not designed to keep going non-stop with no rest. At least not then operate at any decent level.

Potential 33-man Senior EPS:

Corbs, Mako, Marler
Youngs, Webber, Hartley
Cole, Wilson
Launchbury, Lawes
Attwood, Parling
Croft, Robshaw
Wood, Kvesic
Morgan, Vunipola
Youngs, Care
Burns, Farrell, Flood
Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Barritt
Tuilagi, Joseph
Wade, Yarde, May
Foden, Brown

Maybe a little light on wingers, but Eastmond, Joseph and Foden can all cover those positions.

Gives us a huge range of options and we can look to pick players based on form leading up to the Autumn series. If I were to pick now though, my first choice 23 would be:

Corbs, T Youngs, Cole, Launchbury, Attwood, Croft, Wood (C), Morgan;
B Youngs, Burns, Yarde, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Wade, Foden.
Webber, Mako, Wilson, Parling, Robshaw, Care, Farrell, Eastmond.

Yes that looks about right Robbo. Although you could argue Mako might get the nod at LH currently.

It will be interesting to see if the England coaches drop Farrel, Barritt, Robshaw from the starting XV in the AIs.

We need some realism here, this is Stuart Lancaster after all!!

Anyone selecting an EPS that does not include Calum Clark is ignoring history.

LondonTiger wrote:We need some realism here, this is Stuart Lancaster after all!!

Anyone selecting an EPS that does not include Calum Clark is ignoring history.

This is worryingly true unfortunately.

I like Parling as a 2nd row, the only one i have ever seen that looks for space and runs into that rather than the nearest defender. However with him and Launchberry i feel we are too lightweight, the scrum has gone very well in Argentina and i can't help but feel that is in part down to the added grunt that Attwood provides. Also, if Croft gets the nod at 6 then we have someone who is very good at running and jumping in the lineout and frees up the need to have parling in the 2nd row. Its very harsh on parling who has been very good for england, but the lineout was poor in the 6N and as that is his area of expertise its a worry. We also have the likes of Slater, Kruis and Kitchener coming through so who knows what will happen in the next few years.

Very true LT, but I hope Lancaster has his eyes open to what he's seen this summer. If Clark came in for Lawes (remember Clark has been picked as 4th lock before) I wouldn't be too bothered as I think Lawes place is on thin ice anyway, but I wouldn't want to see any of the other locks dropped, and I wouldn't want to see any of the 6 back row players I have picked not make it.

I think it would be a big call to drop all of Parling, Robshaw, Farrell, Barritt, Ashton and Brown from the starting line-up, but I think the 23 I have selected have just as much chance of beating the Southern Hemisphere teams as the team that played in the 2012 Six Nations, but I also believe the team I have selected has the potential to become a much stronger England team than the one that got shown up against Wales.

Retaining Parling, Robshaw and Farell on the bench with Barritt and Brown in the EPS is key to backing up these young players if their form isn't quite there going into the series, but if they hit the ground running next season then those would be my selections.

LondonTiger wrote:

The Saint wrote:Very impressive wins for England. Some new players that may be involved for years to come have been unearthed (especially Twelvetrees, Wade, Burns). Why did Argentina put out such a guff squad though, and won't they now be undercooked for the RC?

Their problem is that in general their best players are in France, with some in England. The Northern hemisphere season runs until End of May/Early June. The rugby championship starts in Mid August, with the squad coming together in Mid July. Players need a break, as physically the human body is not designed to keep going non-stop with no rest. At least not then operate at any decent level.

Last season they put out their best team against France and won, then rotated a week later and lost heavily. I think they should have done that again in this series.

CJ

I have it down as Robshaw as a 6 and Wood as a 7. Do you mean Lancaster sees it the other way round?

robbo277 wrote:CJ

I have it down as Robshaw as a 6 and Wood as a 7. Do you mean Lancaster sees it the other way round?

Yeah, sorry, my bad Personally I think either one does as well on either flank, but Lancaster has definitely focused on Wood as a 6

Think a lot will depend on how they start for their clubs next season. Very difficult to rest players for the Summer, or have them go off to the Lions, and then drop them for players who have performed well against weak opposition.

We really have no idea how some of those players who people now want dropped would have performed and you have to try and judge them in like for like circumstances. Some players have definitely shown potential but I think it would be a mistake to jettison players who less than a year ago were beating New Zealand in one of England's best performances for years.

jelly, you make a very good point.  The next EPS will tell us a lot about Stuart Lancaster.  What I would hope to see from him is some sort of balance between old and new.  We need to win in the 2013/14 season, but the ultimate aim is RWC 2015, and guys like Wade and Yarde look as if they could be just the men for that particular job.

I still think players like Barritt and Farrell should not be starters.

We need more ability in both those spots now. 36 for me is the answer and then monitor the performances of Eastmond at Bath.

I understand defence is massive...BUT Barritt offers absolutely nothing in attack...

But, as pointed out above, he played with Twelvetrees when we scored tries against Scotland and also played when we got tries against NZ