Who is the most Overrated fighter in history????

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Simple question...........who does history love way too much..

Agreed that the cases can be made the other way, but at their very best I still see them having the qualities needed. Tyson was way faster and harder to hit than Frazier, so I don't see them as the same in this instance. Also I'm less than convinced about Tyson being terrified of old George, I think it's more one of those opinions that has become accepted fact by repetition, I certainly don't recall it being a commonly held view point in the early 90's when a fight between the two could have been a possibility. Most people were of the opinion that Tyson could do him so serious harm, right up until Holyfield beat him, and after that the fight was rarely mooted

I dont think so, Tyson might be faster than Frazier but he's not as mentally strong, his head movement deserts him after 4 (in this case he'll have to drop it early)and he's too short to beat him from a distance. Tyson understood it as he would being a boxing historian. A mentally frail Tyson going in against the biggest puncher he'd have ever faced knowing that his own style was made for him? I think its game over. Foreman is the only one I'd have genuinely blitzing others in the top 10 list. Foreman TKO 4

Foreman vs Louis, Louis hits hard, accurate punches in sublime combinations and a fierce jab that would test George seriously but Louis is a habitually slow starter who often got tagged early in his fights. No one knocked him out early but I think being a slow starter against Foreman is asking for it. Once he has Louis hurt, he keeps hurting him and forces the referee to stop the fight. If it goes Past 6 I'd imagine Louis wins as he was an excellent boxer but I don't think he does make it that far. He fights his way in and stays a fractions too long and gets caught by one of georges wild shots to the body then by the uppercut onto the ropes then doing his usual thing. Louis was a pure boxer in the sense that he fought his way in with an excellent jab and applied subtle pressure - his footwork wasn't great but still in perfect balance all of the time but it wasn't good enough to allow him to back out against George. Foreman has better footwork and cuts the ring down too so frequently they are going to come into range and despite Louis ability to slip, Foreman is that rare heavy who can hurt you or knock you off balance without ever landing clean. Foreman TKO 6

Holmes just gets hit so often that I cant see him winning this, Its the Same with Holmes Tyson. I thought holmes Jab would give Tyson fits and that Tyson only beat him because he was old but the more I watched of holmes career the more I saw him get hit and hit clean by average fighters not at his level and thats the one thing you cant do against either George or tyson. Both of whom could smash Holmes once he gets hurt. Its all very well recovering from Earnies shot but he managed that because Shavers isn't a great boxer at all. Both these would be on holmes like flies on Poopie. Holmes also would have something to prove and would never before have faced intensity like this. Foreman TkO < 8

If you're saying Louis would've had difficulty moving out of range quickly enough to avoid George, then you are right. But in general I think Louis footwork is grossly underrated.

His small shuffles didn't allow him to cover great distances in short time but he'd always be in the perfect position relative to his opponent - while being balanced and ready to attack, or defend.

I'd actually go as far as saying I LOVE Louis footwork. It wasn't flashy. It was economical, effective, and unlike Ali he rarely brought his feet together. It was calm, purposeful and appropriate. To top it off, he was good with the pivot and his foot timing was perfect. He neglected lateral movement some what - but that has more to do with his preferred style, rather than an actual inability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R78hdxpRfws



BTW, great post Shah.

Agreed the poor was a little overstatement I regretted as soon as I posted it. Its basic and efficient but basic and efficient doesnt really cut it against George. Joe Louis did everything really well or great. Its just that when you get to the top top fighters a small problem with your technique or a fallacy in your style is magnified ten fold and those problems really mount. Against George you have to get away or get around because he hits so bloody hard that you dont even want your body in the way because he will knock it around. Hard to stay balanced when someone is hitting you like that. George is one of the few big men I'd give a winning chance against Louis along with Ali.

I do enjoy the efficiency of his work and much prefer the slipping and rolling technique utilised by Duran over the flashier bob and weave of TYson. Louis does it a little better than Duran though - in that hes very accurate and can both counter and force the Issue, both while moving forward. Duran kind of forces you into positions then slips, rolls then counters but Louis did both in the same movement.

ShahenshahG wrote: Against George you have to get away or get around because he hits so bloody hard

I 100% agree, for Louis, that's where the problem lies.

Bernard Hopkins........

Shah, I don't disagree that you can make a good case for George against anyone, esp. Tyson, but at the same time it seems a little unfair to use a 'mentally fragile' Tyson in this match up- why not use the supremely focussed Tyson, the one that took his own fears and projected them on to his opponent?, like the one that beat Spinks. Hindsight showed that George himself wasn't the mentally toughest champ either-the KO loss to Jimmy Young proved it, and lets be honest - Young was an average puncher. So whilst I agree that this fight could play out like his fight with Frazier, I can also envisage Tyson ducking under Georges wild swings, and countering with accurate, hard, fast hooks and uppercuts and George being the victim. I certain rate Tyson's chin as being as good if not better than Georges, and if he had George hurt , he stops him.

After watching 6 rounds of ODH vs FMJ we had a conversation earlier, and I admit if you intentionally set out to score a fight in favour of a fighter it's easy to do so, especially in a close contest.

This is where we were at...after 6 rounds I had it 59 - 56 to ODH (my scorecard was at odds with the official scorecard but in line with compubox).

Anyway, I've since watched another two rounds. I score them both for Oscar.

Round seven was closer than eight. In round seven FMJ won the second minute the rest was ODH's. I think too much credit is given to FMJ for LOOKING COMPOSED when on the back foot and under pressure. He may take the STING out of SOME shots (when on the end of a one way exchange) but that's not enough to win that section.

After round eight I have it 79- 74 in favour of ODH.

Even if FMJ wins the next four round thats 115- 114 to ODH. But, like i say, when you set out wanting to score in favour of a fighter it becomes easy to do so.

Young didn't knock Foreman HH, it was a unanimous decision if my memory serves me correctly.

MM, it's been a long time since i've seen the punch stats for that fight but if i'm not mistaken he outlanded De La Hoya in 9 of the 12 rounds so can't see how your scorecard could be in line with them.

Tonight I watched rounds six, seven and eight again.

At the end of round 6 they gave the compu box stats. I thought the stats were for the full fight and in favour ODH. I've just watched it again and i was wrong on both counts, more importantly, it doesn't change how i'm scoring the fight.

















of I got completely confused.

Definitely one of those fights where you have to listen with the sound down. They try their best to be impartial but its like "Wow! Oscars balls are shaven! But wait, whats this??..... Look at how smooth floyds are!!!!"

I've never quite understood the perception that it was close, De La Hoya threw a lot, connected with hardly anything and was being countered with sharp accurate punches all night long.

I think i'm going to watch the fight a few more times with the sound down.
In time I'll give a round by round scoring and why.

But for now, like i said earlier, floyd takes the sting out of some shots, but for me, that's not enough to win the exchanges. Naturally, Floyds accuracy was second to none but i wonder how many of Oscars punches were scored by compubox. How is compubox scored anyway?

I've just read up about compubox, and it's no more than a more complicated amateur boxing computer scoring system, but with only two operators instead of four.

I've read up some more. It has only one scorer counting the punches for each fighter. Can you believe it?.... and we all thought it was fool proof, hahahaha!

At least amateur boxing, despite all its judging pitfalls, has three or four judges for each fighter.

I admire your dedication mackem. Watching de la hoya mayweather Once was more than enough pain for me. Don't think compubox's guy was overworked that night. Could have been a no score draw on the pools panel, til Oscar gassed and fmj started catching him late on.

Maybe floyds counters were too fast for the naked eye and you need hd frame by frame advance to see them.

Maybe floyd fights in a crap era and ODH is overrated? Maybe the judges, being the calcified archaic tortoises that they are, see in slow motion?

Have you figured out who it is yet?

Took a look at my (most recent!) scorecard for Mayweather-De la Hoya last night in light of this ongoing dicussion!

I think where I'm most at odds with your card, Mackem, is in the early stages. I gave De la Hoya the second but that's all I gave him in the first five. I had the sixth even (popular opinion is that that's an Oscar round, but I'm not quite sure he won it outright) and then the seventh and eighth very much to De la Hoya, as he was having a good run of things during that spell.

So after eight rounds, I had Oscar just a single point behind, and I can see how someone may well have it all square at that stage.

After that, however, Oscar completely ran out of gas, stopped throwing and basically just invited Mayweather to win rounds without having to let more than one shot go at a time. Rounds nine, then and eleven were pretty straightforward for Floyd, and then the twelfth was one of those 'how do you like it?' rounds, really. I thought Oscar just about finished the stronger and had marginally the better of that final wild exchange, so he nicked it on my card.

So, not for the first time, I ended up with a score of 116-113 for Floyd. I've watched and scored it three times now and each time I've had basically the same margin of victory.

Just goes to show how tricky and open to interpretation scoring can be depending on what you look for. On paper, we should all have the same methods but that's seldom the case. I don't think you can make a case for Oscar winning that fight at all, but then again, I do know of people who had it just about in his favour who do know their boxing and whose opinions I do respect, even if they're in a minority.

I set out with the intention of scoring as many rounds as possible to Oscar. It was difficult, but i managed it. I should have recorded my scores. I'll watch the first 6 again (I'm out with the Mrs today so it'll probably be tonight), then I'll post the round by round scores, after intentionally scoring for ODH.

I've just gave my beautiful baby daughter her night feed in absolute silence, while doing so, I watched the first 6 rounds of the ODH Vs FMJ fight again (sound off). My card after six? 58-57 to Floyd.

Scored as such:

Round 1 10-9 FMJ
Round 2 10-9 ODH
Round 3 10-10 (.......if I my life depended on it, then 10-9 FMJ, however, my life doesnt depend on it, so my card stands)
Round 4 10-9 FMJ
Round 5 10-9 FMJ
Round 6 10-9 ODH

I scored Rounds 7 and 8 earlier and gave them to ODH, so that's 77-76 to ODH.

If Floyd wins the next 4 rounds (like I'm told he does) then my card is 116-113 to Floyd. Nothing controversial there, so I guess I've been talking Bollox for the last couple of days. Sorry.

TheMackemMawler wrote:I've just gave my beautiful baby daughter her night feed in absolute silence, while doing so, I watched the first 6 rounds of the ODH Vs FMJ fight again (sound off). My card after six? 58-57 to Floyd.

Scored as such:

Round 1 10-9 FMJ
Round 2 10-9 ODH
Round 3 10-10 (.......if I my life depended on it, then 10-9 FMJ, however, my life doesnt depend on it, so my card stands)
Round 4 10-9 FMJ
Round 5 10-9 FMJ
Round 6 10-9 ODH

I scored Rounds 7 and 8 earlier and gave them to ODH, so that's 77-76 to ODH.

If Floyd wins the next 4 rounds (like I'm told he does) then my card is 116-113 to Floyd. Nothing controversial there, so I guess I've been talking Bollox for the last couple of days. Sorry.

Praising yourself with faint damnation

Shah, you're either genius or very skeptical. I'll let you decide..