Does it make sense to have a Lions team full of welsh players?

by bsando Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales have played the wallabies 8 times since there last win against them in 2008. Of the 16 games played between these two teams since the new millennium, Wales have won only 2 and one draw.

England have beaten Australia 9 times out of 17 games played between the two nations since the new millennium. Win percentage of 52.9%

Ireland have won 3 out of 10 games played since new millennium and one draw. Win percentage of 35%

Scotland have won 2 out of 9 since the new millennium. Win percentage of 22.2%

Meanwhile, the team who will most likely be representing the majority of Lions XV positions, have a win percentage of only 15.625%

It's fair to say that Wales have had a very bad run of luck vs Australia. I could now go on to dis Wales as a team and conjure some excuses as to why there should be less Welsh players in the Lions, but I don't see the point. Plus, it ain't gonna happen anyway as Wales are the in form NH team at the moment and deserve to have the most players representing the Lions.

What I want to know is, which other players from England, Scotland and Ireland are going to give these Welsh players that little extra to secure a 3-0 white wash over Australia? Where have Wales gone wrong in the past? What does Gatland need to do to ensure the Lions don't play like the Welsh team that got white washed last summer?

by SecretFly Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:35 pm

gowershowerpower wrote:but if you don't take form players, how will you know if they perform on form on not perform on form if they aren't there to perform?

Jesus..you're a hard man to get through to in that house of yours with no door! I'll shout through the window then:

Take the blasted in-form players. Of course he's going to take 'in-form' players...whatever his cut off point for that will be!!!.

Take them by all means, load the plane with them...stuff the hotel rooms with Welsh in-form players. But never tell me that simply because they've proved themselves sufficient to be on a plane that they also naturally will be the best options available come the games themselves. I've seen too much rugby in my day to believe that one. Truth is some of them will prove subtandard to the opponents they'll meet. And places like this will be full of chit chat about who 'should'a' gone instead and 'would'a' done better.

You seem to suggest in-coming form is proof of best-for-the-job. Truth will prove you wrong on a few. It always does.

by fa0019 Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:36 pm

Everyone seems to look at BOD and think he can do it week in week out... he can't. 1 flash of brilliance vs. Wales and the rest of the tournament has been sadly very poor.

Its like England in 11 hoping Wilkinson would turn back the years and become the world beater he once was.

Are people expecting BOD to play 3 pre test dirt trackers to build playing relationships etc and form and then 3 tests. 6 games in 6 weeks... unlikely.

by **Biltong** Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:37 pm

gowershowerpower wrote:but if you don't take form players, how will you know if they perform on form on not perform on form if they aren't there to perform?

well, form does not guarantee performance, the format of the tour can also influence the form of a player, does his performance improve on a tour, or do activities outside the touring group influence that form.

But the biggest question is, does form follow function, or does function follow form, the reality is each player has a function and his form will dictate his performance, but then again, his function can change, depending on his form.

A coach may well say ayer X is vital to us winning, however his form is no great, hence his form will then follow his function, or the caoch may decide his form is great, hence he will use the player for a different function, in that case function follows form.

Rolling Eyes

I am confused.

by fa0019 Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:39 pm

In 2003 England's form leading up to the SF was dire... so much so that everyone predicted France would win.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

by SecretFly Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:41 pm

fa0019 wrote:Everyone seems to look at BOD and think he can do it week in week out... he can't. 1 flash of brilliance vs. Wales and the rest of the tournament has been sadly very poor.

I think this tournament has proven nobody can. His excuses are better than most given he's a 34 year old wreck. What's Tuilagi's excuse? What's Warburton's? Did I see perfection week-in week-out from any player? Halfpenny did all that was asked from him on a consistent level.

He wasn't exactly living in a crowded house of consistent players.

by gowershowerpower Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:43 pm

'But the biggest question is, does form follow functin, or dies function follow form,'

no, it isn't the biggest question.

is the best player in their position to beat OZ going to be picked, is.

by majesticimperialman Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:45 pm

Biltong wrote:
gowershowerpower wrote:but if you don't take form players, how will you know if they perform on form on not perform on form if they aren't there to perform?
well, form does not guarantee performance, the format of the tour can also influence the form of a player, does his performance improve on a tour, or do activities outside the touring group influence that form.

But the biggest question is, does form follow function, or does function follow form, the reality is each player has a function and his form will dictate his performance, but then again, his function can change, depending on his form.

A coach may well say ayer X is vital to us winning, however his form is no great, hence his form will then follow his function, or the caoch may decide his form is great, hence he will use the player for a different function, in that case function follows form.

I am confused.

After reading all that. so am i Erm

by gowershowerpower Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:46 pm

shut the window fly...i have a headache.

by fa0019 Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:46 pm

true. But with every player their is a specific circumstance.... Tuilagi was injured for a month before he played Ireland and Warburton was out of form for an age.

With BOD it just looks like he's running on empty... in a lions tour the number of games they have to play is a big ask.

by 100%beefy Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:47 pm

fa0019 wrote:100%beefy

Wales record pre world cup vs. AUS was respectable?

So since the 03 world cup up to RWC11 a record of 2 wins in 8 is respectable? Both wins coming at home.

You can explain every loss with xyz, bounce of the ball, final kick, wrong tactics on the day but over 21 games under Gatland vs. the SH 3N sides is enough to even those out..... and 1 win in 21 is not respectable.

During that time Scotland have 3 wins.

Hilarious, you just wanted to tell us how good Scotland are!!! well done....a few weeks ago they were contenders for the 6 Nations...how did that work out in the end? laughing

Until 1982 they beat them a lot, only twice in 30 years since then and a run of 16 losses to 2009!

I said that in recent years their performance was respectable and then went on to explain they had gone into meltdown in 2011-12 to illustrate that they has a psych problem with Aus and should not be selected en masse for the Lions. Wales have won about 1/3 of their games v Aus which is comparable to England.

by R!skysports Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:49 pm

I think one of the key aspects is HOW we are going to play

Wales are the form NH team - but does their style actually suit playing against the Ozzies

History would say not

So is it just form, or is it style of play required

A bit of both I would guess - so does that make it certain it will just be Welsh?

by SecretFly Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:53 pm

fa0019 wrote:true. But with every player their is a specific circumstance.... Tuilagi was injured for a month before he played Ireland and Warburton was out of form for an age.

With BOD it just looks like he's running on empty... in a lions tour the number of games they have to play is a big ask.

For God's sake.... he played his last game still under the influence of concussion and is riddled with more injuries that niggle than the entire English squad together! Excuses are great for young men with lots of meat and young bone but an old warhorse who doesn't have to prove himself anymore gets it in the neck from the 'form' purists.

If O'Driscoll was on the field playing himself to standstill for a dreadful side when he shouldn't have been, I'm not going to have too much sympathy for the excuses of young players with careers still mostly infront of them, who are chosen to play for the two top sides and can only manage minutes.

by fa0019 Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:55 pm

100%beefy

I was talking about recent years.

Wales record vs. AUS up to but not including the last RWC was 2 wins in 8 (both coming at home) (2005 to 2010). Hardly respectable.

And in the last 4 years Gatlands record vs. the SH is 1 win in 21. Which is dire. The worst of any coach in the NH.

My example stating that Scotland over the same 4 years period has 3 wins was meant to show the actual record Wales have in context... i.e. Wales are a far better side then Scotland yet Scotland have 3 wins vs. the 3N sides whereas Wales has only 1 win... and not only that.... they have had 15 more shots at the cherry then Scotland had... and still couldn't get over the line.

by fa0019 Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
fa0019 wrote:true. But with every player their is a specific circumstance.... Tuilagi was injured for a month before he played Ireland and Warburton was out of form for an age.

With BOD it just looks like he's running on empty... in a lions tour the number of games they have to play is a big ask.

For God's sake.... he played his last game still under the influence of concussion and is riddled with more injuries that niggle than the entire English squad together! Excuses are great for young men with lots of meat and young bone but an old warhorse who doesn't have to prove himself anymore gets it in the neck from the 'form' purists.

If O'Driscoll was on the field playing himself to standstill for a dreadful side when he shouldn't have been, I'm not going to have too much sympathy for the excuses of young players with careers still mostly infront of them, who are chosen to play for the two top sides and can only manage minutes.

Thats exactly my point... I don't doubt for a minute that he can still produce... I do doubt very much so that he can last 3 matches in 3 weeks prior to the test matches and still be a threat come the 1st test... let alone the series.

by SecretFly Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:05 pm

fa0019 wrote:

Thats exactly my point... I don't doubt for a minute that he can still produce... I do doubt very much so that he can last 3 matches in 3 weeks prior to the test matches and still be a threat come the 1st test... let alone the series.

And that's my point. Will any of the rest of them? I said I didn't see the kind of brutal consistency you'd need for a Lions series from most players this season...save as I say Halfpenny.

So if young people look edgy on the consistency basis of real high level intensity rugby then I think I'd cut the old guy, who was still on the pitch for the last moments of the season (when many of his team mates had already taken to their sick beds)...some slack.

I don't care if he goes on Lions duty or not. For him it would be an honour so for him I'd feel the pride.... but as a player you'd look to be in the trenches with you when Heaven is falling (as it might do in Australia)...there isn't another player I'd want with me, from any of the sides represented.

by maestegmafia Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:08 pm

A good example would be why not pick Sam, Tips and Toby as the backrow...?

Three players at the top of the game, just blew the England pack out the water at the breakdown and created some great try's, have had several very close matches but never beaten Australia.

Or do you go with Robshaw, hard worker, apparently an inspiring captain, lost to Oz , SA and showed little ability to inspire England in their last two and probably in hindsight most important games?

SOB, still surviving off the impact he made a few years ago that he hasn't lived up to since?

Heaslip not really impressive this year?

Morgan, didnt play a game yet this year?

Armitage, in International Isolation due to Lancasters no OSPs policy?

Warburton, Tips and Faletau look a great option...

Disassemble that welsh team and make similar comparisons and you get similar answers. I wouldn't be too surprised to see around half the squad coming from the Welsh set up.

by fa0019 Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:12 pm

in 2001 England were stratospheres above everyone else... much more so then Wales are above the chasing pack now... and in the first test only 8 Englishman were in the first XV.
Some nations simply had better individuals i.e Wood.

by maestegmafia Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:27 pm

fa0019 wrote:in 2001 England were stratospheres above everyone else... much more so then Wales are above the chasing pack now... and in the first test only 8 Englishman were in the first XV.
Some nations simply had better individuals i.e Wood.

Yes...!

The only time that hadn't seemed the case was in '05.

It will be the same again. I think this year it is a very close call on many players. There is not as much between the teams in the Home Nations as might sometimes meet the eye. Certainly plenty of individuals in teams that haven't done well that will this year over all. Every team had their day and showed their best at some point.

by mikey_philVIII Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:00 pm

fa0019 wrote:100%beefy

Wales record pre world cup vs. AUS was respectable?

So since the 03 world cup up to RWC11 a record of 2 wins in 8 is respectable? Both wins coming at home.

You can explain every loss with xyz, bounce of the ball, final kick, wrong tactics on the day but over 21 games under Gatland vs. the SH 3N sides is enough to even those out..... and 1 win in 21 is not respectable.

During that time Scotland have 3 wins.

How many wooden spoons and losses to Italy and tonga do Scotland have in that same period?

by 100%beefy Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:02 pm

WHo cares....Scotland had their 5 minutes of fame, they do it every year and then when their defense/penalty/attrition style lets them down they go back to square one and wonder how do we find some backs who can play.

by mikey_philVIII Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:02 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Hilarious post, if you count players who are still playing at the moment on these wins over Australia the English have beat them twice and the Welsh once with one draw.

Also if we use this reasoning shouldn't Irish and Scottish also be more prominent in the Lions squad?
Scotland beat the Aussies in Australia last year and the current Irish set up beat them in the World Cup.

Can we please put to bed this myth that England always do well against southern hemisphere teams,
the purple patch England had with Woodward was a very good spell for English rugby,but boy don't you guys coat tail it.
What that fantastic group of players did back then has absolutely no bearing on the current England squad.

I have a Calve Raiser in my gym,proper old school one used by many Mr Universes in years gone by also Mr Olympia Lee Haney has used it! does that make me a Champion body builder? not by a long shot

The Lions will be a healthy mix of all nations and Gatland will be very fair with letting players earn the shirt from the mid week games.

You are quite close to the truth here actually. Wales winning championships in the past few years seems to really bother some English and scottish posters. I don't understand why the scottish would be annoyed with Wales' winning streaks. I thought the welsh, Irish and scottish were best mates?

by mikey_philVIII Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:09 pm

Riskysports wrote:I think one of the key aspects is HOW we are going to play

Wales are the form NH team - but does their style actually suit playing against the Ozzies

History would say not

So is it just form, or is it style of play required

A bit of both I would guess - so does that make it certain it will just be Welsh?

Both playing styles of these two teams are very similar (it changed under Deans). What do you suggest, take the Scotland XV and hope for rain? Or a combination of the best home union players? I can tell you the latter is likely to be Gatland's choice, which is obvious. Hence why I think these articles slating Wales are pointless.

by alive555 Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:12 pm

Walsh round Ale

by Hound_of_Harrow Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:37 pm

I agree with one of Fly's earlier points. There have been very few (potential Lions) players who were consistently good in the 6N. I would venture that only Adam Jones, Halfpenny and Robshaw have done that over five games.

Personally I wouldn't get too carried away with one match in the last round. But Gatland said he saw the game in Cardiff as a 'Lions audition'. So going by Gatland's logic, England failed the audition en masse; the entire Welsh 23 from Saturday (plus Ryan Jones and Lydiate) will go, plus half a dozen Scots and Irish.

Being the Lions head coach is a doddle when it comes to selection.

thumbsup

by Taffineastbourne Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:00 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:I agree with one of Fly's earlier points. There have been very few (potential Lions) players who were consistently good in the 6N. I would venture that only Adam Jones, Halfpenny and Robshaw have done that over five games.

Personally I wouldn't get too carried away with one match in the last round. But Gatland said he saw the game in Cardiff as a 'Lions audition'. So going by Gatland's logic, England failed the audition en masse; the entire Welsh 23 from Saturday (plus Ryan Jones and Lydiate) will go, plus half a dozen Scots and Irish.

Being the Lions head coach is a doddle when it comes to selection.

And IF Gats does that and wins the series he will be lauded.IF he fails he will be pilloried.

by t1000advancedprototype Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:02 pm

Does it make sense to have a lions squad almost entirely made up of over the hill English players when Wales had just won a grand slam with some of the best attacking rugby seen in a generation?

Does it make sense to leave out the form 11 and form 12 in world rugby from the first test because of personal jealously?

Does it make sense to play the best 10 in the NH at 12 against the greatest ever all blacks side?

XV Welshman deserve a lions place at the moment and even selecting them in the first test is still a damn sight better than what happened in 2005.

by welshboii15 Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:04 pm

At the end of the day garland is the best coach available to the lions2 grand slams in four years and a world cup semi finals clearly the guy knows what he is doing. All gatland now needs to do is sit down with howley, Farrell and roundtree and ouch the best team available to them use the mid-week games to find the right mix of players and their strongest team, so think this over as long as gatland picks his best squad the rest is down to the coaches to get everything else right so if the lions win then the lions was a success and gatland howley roundtree and Farrell are heroes, if they lose it shouldn't be just gatlands fault its the coaches as well

by **Ozzy3213** Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:07 pm

Taffineastbourne

I'm not sure he would be lauded anywhere but in Wales. I would hazard a guess that for Lions purists the amateur ethos still holds, and the camaraderie and coming together of all four nations with a collective, spirit and unity is actually more important than the results.

12 Welshmen, 1 Englishman, 1 Irishman and a Scotsman is not a Lions team for me, and nor would 12 Englishmen and one each from the offer nations be.

by Taffineastbourne Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:14 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Taffineastbourne

I'm not sure he would be lauded anywhere but in Wales. I would hazard a guess that for Lions purists the amateur ethos still holds, and the camaraderie and coming together of all four nations with a collective, spirit and unity is actually more important than the results.

12 Welshmen, 1 Englishman, 1 Irishman and a Scotsman is not a Lions team for me, and nor would 12 Englishmen and one each from the offer nations be.

Ozzy,Sir Clive sank that boat when he took his cronies.

by **Ozzy3213** Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:16 pm

What SCW did was bollix. In 2009 Geech put the pride and spirit back in the jersey, on a tour that harked back to the amateur era. It's up to Gatland how he treats the jersey and what sort of squad he picks, but going down the same road as SCW did would be a mistake in my eyes.

by Guest Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:19 pm

The positive that Gatland has, is he has worked with Geech on the last tour, so should understand the ethos etc. He's already made a positive start by selecting Andy Farrell over Shaun Edwards (in terms of freshness of selection) and I wouldn't be surprised if he did similar with the players at his disposal.

by majesticimperialman Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:29 pm

Can some one correct if i am wrong, but the last time the Lions had more Welsh players than any other players they lost the test.

However when their was a more even amount of players they won.

Or am i wrong about that?

by gregortree Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:34 pm

welshboii15 wrote:At the end of the day garland is the best coach available to the lions2 grand slams in four years and a world cup semi finals clearly the guy knows what he is doing. All gatland now needs to do is sit down with howley, Farrell and roundtree and ouch the best team available to them use the mid-week games to find the right mix of players and their strongest team, so think this over as long as gatland picks his best squad the rest is down to the coaches to get everything else right so if the lions win then the lions was a success and gatland howley roundtree and Farrell are heroes, if they lose it shouldn't be just gatlands fault its the coaches as well

Boi, you mean that bird Judy ?

by 100%beefy Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:34 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Taffineastbourne

I'm not sure he would be lauded anywhere but in Wales. I would hazard a guess that for Lions purists the amateur ethos still holds, and the camaraderie and coming together of all four nations with a collective, spirit and unity is actually more important than the results.

12 Welshmen, 1 Englishman, 1 Irishman and a Scotsman is not a Lions team for me, and nor would 12 Englishmen and one each from the offer nations be.

Good theory but untrue...I was in SA...and all I cared about was the win...as for the make up yes, national identity iis irrelevant as the Lions are without a nation and to have too many from one side would ruin that....having said that I woul dsay the follwoing Welsh are must picks

Jones
AWJ
Tipuric
Philipps
North
Roberts
1/2

and these boys are also very pcikable!

Geth
Hibberd
Evans
Warbs
Faletau
JD2
Cutnbert
Ryan

Problem with Wales is they have winning ways up here but not down there..it raises the issue about coaching, the Welsh way hasn't worked but under Geech they thrived in SA and I hope that farrell and Rowntree bring new ideas but wish Edwards was on baord

When you look elsewhere, Ryan Zebo Gilroy Kearney Sexton Best and BOD all could tour with some to start

As could Hogg, Scott, Maitland, Visser, Beattie, Gray, Parling, Manu, Youngs B, Cole, Robshaw, Wood, Farrell,

by mikey_philVIII Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:38 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Can some one correct if i am wrong, but the last time the Lions had more Welsh players than any other players they lost the test.

However when their was a more even amount of players they won.

Or am i wrong about that?

Here we go again. Back in 2009 it was "England should have the lions majority because they won a test there back in the 1990's."

I love the lions but it brings out the idiot fans which is a shame.

by t1000advancedprototype Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:38 pm

It all depends on these factors:

Who stays fit.
Who trains well.
What combinations work.
Who stands out from first few midweek games.

The first test could hypothetically have few Welsh in it.
Whoever gatland I will trust his judgement.

by Glas a du Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:39 pm

who trains well

by majesticimperialman Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:44 pm

mikey_philVIII wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Can some one correct if i am wrong, but the last time the Lions had more Welsh players than any other players they lost the test.

However when their was a more even amount of players they won.

Or am i wrong about that?

Here we go again. Back in 2009 it was "England should have the lions majority because they won a test there back in the 1990's."

I love the lions but it brings out the idiot fans which is a shame.

mikey phlv111

I am not suggesting that their should not be any Welsh in the team. What i am saying is that one Bad game for England and one Great game for Wales. does not/ should not be the deciding factor of who goes on the Lions or who plays in the test matches. ok.

by mikey_philVIII Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:47 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
mikey_philVIII wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Can some one correct if i am wrong, but the last time the Lions had more Welsh players than any other players they lost the test.

However when their was a more even amount of players they won.

Or am i wrong about that?

Here we go again. Back in 2009 it was "England should have the lions majority because they won a test there back in the 1990's."

I love the lions but it brings out the idiot fans which is a shame.

mikey phlv111

I am not suggesting that their should not be any Welsh in the team. What i am saying is that one Bad game for England and one Great game for Wales. does not/ should not be the deciding factor of who goes on the Lions or who plays in the test matches. ok.

Well that's stating the obvious isn't it? Well done. This now makes your original comment even more ridiculous.

by majesticimperialman Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:57 pm

mikey_philVIII wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
mikey_philVIII wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Can some one correct if i am wrong, but the last time the Lions had more Welsh players than any other players they lost the test.

However when their was a more even amount of players they won.

Or am i wrong about that?

Here we go again. Back in 2009 it was "England should have the lions majority because they won a test there back in the 1990's."

I love the lions but it brings out the idiot fans which is a shame.

mikey phlv111

I am not suggesting that their should not be any Welsh in the team. What i am saying is that one Bad game for England and one Great game for Wales. does not/ should not be the deciding factor of who goes on the Lions or who plays in the test matches. ok.

Well that's stating the obvious isn't it? Well done. This now makes your original comment even more ridiculous.

I give up. picard

by SecretFly Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:02 pm

So we're agreed? We're on the one road all the way to Australia???? Laugh

Oh I can feel the brotherly love of it all....... God Bless the unifying power of The Lions

by 100%beefy Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:12 pm

This is hilarious, get over the national identity fellas, all this urining contest shoite is irrelevant when the whislte blows, we are all brothers in arms, that is until we lose the first test and Robshaw takes the blame kiss

by mikey_philVIII Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:18 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
mikey_philVIII wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
mikey_philVIII wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Can some one correct if i am wrong, but the last time the Lions had more Welsh players than any other players they lost the test.

However when their was a more even amount of players they won.

Or am i wrong about that?

Here we go again. Back in 2009 it was "England should have the lions majority because they won a test there back in the 1990's."

I love the lions but it brings out the idiot fans which is a shame.

mikey phlv111

I am not suggesting that their should not be any Welsh in the team. What i am saying is that one Bad game for England and one Great game for Wales. does not/ should not be the deciding factor of who goes on the Lions or who plays in the test matches. ok.

Well that's stating the obvious isn't it? Well done. This now makes your original comment even more ridiculous.

I give up.

Good, but you should have given up on 606. V2 is for rugby supporters, okay?

by mikey_philVIII Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:20 pm

100%beefy wrote:This is hilarious, get over the national identity fellas, all this urining contest shoite is irrelevant when the whislte blows, we are all brothers in arms, that is until we lose the first test and Robshaw takes the blame

I agree with you. But it is a comment probably lost on this kind of thread. I'm supporting whoever is in that Lions jersey.

by kingjohn7 Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:36 pm

SecretFly wrote:So we're agreed? We're on the one road all the way to Australia????

Oh I can feel the brotherly love of it all....... God Bless the unifying power of The Lions

Im thinking(hoping) this is all just some lively fun before it starts and once it does we will all be behind whoever gets picked. I know we have all the other times. Truth is, depending on your shirt, you could make a decent case for your player over others. Risky says it well, it depends on the type of game and style we want to play and which players can deliver that. Problem I think we have is, that most of our(eng, wal, scot, ire) top players are fairly similar. For example, the centres that are 'on form' are IMO not going to that effective against the Aussies. Like Fa says, they are used to that direct approach and usually deal with it well. I think that whatever tight 5 we pick, it will be strong, and back row the same(but balance against theirs will be tough to decide). Scrum half, for me would be Youngs if we are on the front foot through the forwards, Phillips if we are getting bashed up. Fly half and centres, IMO, we are fooked. Wings???We got lots of talent but most are inexperinced/out of form. Lucky we still got some time left.

by welshboii15 Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:50 pm

Wouldn't it make sense to have key positions like the front row and the spine of the team from one nation like front row welsh and like half backs English or something so at least the key positions know each other rather than make these combos

by dragonbreath Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:53 pm

100%beefy wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:Ok, lets start with the Wales XV against England:

15 Leigh Halfpenny
14Alex Cuthbert
13Jonathan Davies
12Jamie Roberts
11George North
10Dan Biggar
9 Mike Phillips
1 Gethin Jenkins (capt)
2 Richard Hibbard
3 Adam Jones
4 Alun Wyn Jones
5 Ian Evans
6 Sam Warburton
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Toby Faletau

All good players on their day. You could find a number of better players in a few positions and improve it. One side MIGHT be:

15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Maitland
13 Tuilagi
12 BOD
11 George North
10 J Sexton
9 Laidlaw
1 Gethin Jenkins (capt)
2 Best
3 Adam Jones
4 Alun Wyn Jones
5 Launchbury
6 Sam Warburton
7 Robshaw
8 Ben Morgan

I've done that very quickly without much thought. This doesn't matter though, because my point is that there is very little difference in standard between the Welsh XV and a possible Lions XV (the same for an England or Ireland XV too). Man for man they are all fairly well matched.

The problem the Welsh have I would therefore say is not selection. It is a mix of tactics and psychology.

The Aussies are the kings of the mind games. They also play a very varied attacking game with high skill levels. The Welsh seem to fall prey to both of these (Oz seem to really be a bogey team for them). As to how to combat these - I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think selection is too much of a problem. You could choose a random selection and you would have a team capable of beating Australia. Whether they would or not is done to tactics and psychology.

It shows...stopped reading after laidlaw..oh dear

Me too. What is it with people and Laidlaw. Whatever it is I have missed it.

by dragonbreath Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:59 pm

SecretFly wrote:
gowershowerpower wrote:but if you don't take form players, how will you know if they perform on form on not perform on form if they aren't there to perform?

Jesus..you're a hard man to get through to in that house of yours with no door! I'll shout through the window then:

Take the blasted in-form players. Of course he's going to take 'in-form' players...whatever his cut off point for that will be!!!.

Take them by all means, load the plane with them...stuff the hotel rooms with Welsh in-form players. But never tell me that simply because they've proved themselves sufficient to be on a plane that they also naturally will be the best options available come the games themselves. I've seen too much rugby in my day to believe that one. Truth is some of them will prove subtandard to the opponents they'll meet. And places like this will be full of chit chat about who 'should'a' gone instead and 'would'a' done better.

You seem to suggest in-coming form is proof of best-for-the-job. Truth will prove you wrong on a few. It always does.

At last someone else who agrees that picking form players for a Lions tour is simplistic and the wrong way to go. Just because we got smashed doesn't mean I was wromg

Signed

Sir Clive rose

by winchester Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:14 pm

I think the final game of the 6 Nations has given Gatland the excuse, if he needed one, to pick a heavily Welsh Lions team. I think the core of the side should be Welsh and English. Wales have retained the 6 Nations but have a very poor record against the SH recently. England didnt turn up against Wlaes but have shown they have the mental strength to dismantly the All Blacks. It makes sense to balance out the two.

Ireland have both played and injured themselves out of real contention barring a few positions. Sexton and Healy looked nailed on but I would keep the Welsh tight 5 as a unit and start Farrell with Sexton a bench option if fit.

Scotland are a bit nfortunate insofar as their stand out performers are simply up against better Welsh or English players.

by **Notch** Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:16 pm

Basically there will be a lot of Welsh players in the squad, but the test side will be drawn from whoever performs well in the warm-up games as ever.

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