Are Munster leaving the top table?

Having seen (admittedly only on TV) Munster huff and puff their way to the end of the season, are we seeing them take their leave from the top table or are their ecent performances just a bit of a blip.
ROG hasn't set the heather on fire recently but he must still be pretty influential within the side so how much will he be missed? Is O'Connell running out of original body parts?
If Munster are on their way out, who will take their place as a top Rabo side? Lets take it as read that Ulster and Leinster will be there, ditto the O's if they avoid injuries to their backline but will the Scarlets muscle (literally as well as metaphorically) their way up or what about the unwashed in the west of Scotland? Are they a one season wonder like Edinburgh last year or the real deal?
I genuinely think the Rabo will be even better next season as even the Zebres weren't pushover especially towards the end of the season.

Munster have an new coach this season who has introduced a new, alien style of play to Munster. Rob Penney said it will take at least two seasons to get Munster playing the way he wants them to. Its a Crusaders style so as you can imagine its a big leap going from the Munster style under Kidney to a Crusaders style of play.


The team is younger and more inexperienced than people think. Apart from POC, ROG, Hurley and DOC, the team who beat Harlequins were not around the last time Munster won the HEC in 2008.


I think Muster need some new backs and and another season or two for the pack to mature. They lost Leamy, Wallace and Flannery early due to injuries and you can't replace those kind of players over night.

Munster
07-08 H-cup winners, 3rd in league
08-09 Pro 12 winners,H-cup semi finalists
09-10 Pro 12 play offs,H-cup semi finalists
10-11 Pro 12 winners, Almin cup semi finalists
11-12 Pro 12 play offs, H-cup Quarter-finalists
12-13 H-cup semi finalists (at least)


That sort of record doesn't strike me a a club in decline, and I believe most teams in Europe would be proud of that performance over the last few years.

Performances this season have certainly been reminiscent of a club in decline/transition king.

To get to the semi-final is a big achievement but if they get beat it will have been a poor season for Munster- albeit one which will have planted the seeds of their recovery. Very poor showing in the league this year, but Penney has also used that to blood young players and spread gametime around the squad so the benefits of that will be felt down the line. Have to bear that in mind.

Munster haven't been serious HEC contenders since 2009 so they've long since left the top table.

You can't replace guys like Quinlan, Wallace, Leamy, Foley, Hayes, Flannery etc. and they've lost a lot of good experienced squad guys like Barry Murphy, Warwick, Mafi, MOD and Dowling too.

This Clermont game will show us if they are a team on the up or still a team on the down.

Munster are the only 'ancient' team in with the new boys in this year's closing stages of HC.

I don't care what any of you guys say now in retrospect...none of you expected that at the beginning of the year, the middle of the year - and indeed, some of you might still be questioning the reality of it now Nope, you're not dreaming. Munster is the old grey headed guy in with the juniors...and that's getting into Jimmy Savile territory but there you go. The police will be watching closely, I assure you.

I'd suspect Munster aren't going to get much worse than they've been this year. Their newer players are learning all the while. Learning how to be quite bad and learning how to look quite menacing too. Learning under a new coach and falling to...............well, it's 6th. One behind the Ospreys, who nobody says is in decline

So Munster might lull in 6ish position even next season but you won't keep experience learned at the heart of Europe for so long from eventually informing the growth of their players into a more heavy hitting force than 6th.

I don't think they'll be going down into 8th and 9th. But if they do, quite a few more sides that are now above them will be following, as it will probably mean that Italian sides are beginning to flex their muscle in a competition they're finally settling into.
If Italian sides force Munster down a few notches....they'll also be influencing the positions of all top flight sides.

Agree with all that Fly.

It should also be noted that despite all the negativity which surrounds it, the Rabo is a tough league.

Munster have been sitting at the kids table for a few years now.

While Munster have disappointed in the leauge this year, they have done better in Europe.

I don't think they have left the top table, but they are currently dining further down it than previous years.

I agree with profitius that the Pro 12 gets slagged of a bit but it is a tough league, squad depth is a lot more important in it that in the Jeff or Top 14, because each team has more international players and because they miss a fair amount of league games, the depth is tested in the Pro 12 more than other leagues, (some may claim that full strenght teams don't play enough, but they can't play any more, and hence the depth comes into it more).

Added that if a Union believes its teams should be doing better they will get behind them better (WRU seam to be fighting it), eg a few years ago the SRU decided to fund and run its teams better and look at the improvement in Glasgow, IRFU decided to fund Connacht better and they have improved.

Therefore it becomes more difficult to stay on top as the teams that were below you improve faster.

I'd say the top 6 in the Jeff and top 14 will likley be the same next year as this, whereas I think the Pro 12 is harder to predict. Will FIR back Treviso to challange for top 6? will Scarlets and Glasgow remain in playoff places? How much will Cardiff improve?

I think if Munster lose badly against Clermont it will be seen as a pretty bad season but those who really know their rugby will work out that a lot of seeds have been planted this year

profitius wrote:It should also be noted that despite all the negativity which surrounds it, the Rabo is a tough league.

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greytiger wrote:

profitius wrote:It should also be noted that despite all the negativity which surrounds it, the Rabo is a tough league.

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SecretFly wrote:

greytiger wrote:

profitius wrote:It should also be noted that despite all the negativity which surrounds it, the Rabo is a tough league.

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Some seriously thoughtful posting there boys.

greytiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

greytiger wrote:

profitius wrote:It should also be noted that despite all the negativity which surrounds it, the Rabo is a tough league.

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I raise you:

Biltong wrote:Some seriously thoughtful posting there boys.

Great insight there Biltong.

What do you think - is the Rabo a tough league what with all the competition and penalties for failure and stuff?

We clearly need some moderation here.

SecretFly wrote:

greytiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

greytiger wrote:

profitius wrote:It should also be noted that despite all the negativity which surrounds it, the Rabo is a tough league.

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I raise you:

greytiger wrote:

Biltong wrote:Some seriously thoughtful posting there boys.

Great insight there Biltong.

What do you think - is the Rabo a tough league what with all the competition and penalties for failure and stuff?

We clearly need some moderation here.

Bilt ain't a Neutral no more given the number of (increasing) SAs in it.

'sOK, Fly. You haven't seen the safferloads of de-pats in the Jeff.

Trust in Biltong!

Believe!

Munster in my opinion have done the same as the Ospreys this season but have been luckier with injuries, like the Ospreys Munster have given a lot of game time to the youth in their squads, next year both Munster and the Ospreys will be better equipped with extra experience their kids have gotten this year. I honestly think, that if Leinster lose BOD next year and with Necewa going they will struggle and find things a little harder than they have done.Lets not forget, they have already lost Sexton and they do not have a raft of quality if anything happens to Madigan.

LordDowlais wrote:Munster in my opinion have done the same as the Ospreys this season but have been luckier with injuries, like the Ospreys Munster have given a lot of game time to the youth in their squads, next year both Munster and the Ospreys will be better equipped with extra experience their kids have gotten this year. I honestly think, that if Leinster lose BOD next year and with Necewa going they will struggle and find things a little harder than they have done.Lets not forget, they have already lost Sexton and they do not have a raft of quality if anything happens to Madigan.

That's all very true Lord, but for one point...Leinster are already finding things a little harder, with damned upstarts like Ulster and Glasgow not respecting their right to be on the top!

Ospreys are the kings of Pro12 though. Leinster never were the absolute darlings of it. But also, they tend to regularly have two competitions on their minds come the end of a season, which is a double edge sword of effort needed and motivation divided.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one fly, just who do Glasgow and Ulster think they are, eh.

Seriously though, players like BOD, Sexton, Necewa are not replaceable, how long has D'Arcy got left ? I am telling you Necewa has probably been the player of the season for me in the Rabbo, this last few years he has been awesome, I fear Leinster will have a tricky season next time around, but they will soon be back I suppose.

Yeah, there might be a year or two of diceyness coming up okay, Lord.

But if they can hang in there around the fringes, like Munster have, whilst re-developing, then that would be acceptable. No team lasts on top eternally but I suppose the true test is how well you manage the drop down so that it might produce a bounce back up again a year or two later.

Oh we'll see Lord... this rugby lark, it ain't getting any less complex as the years go by.

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, there might be a year or two of diceyness coming up okay, Lord.

But if they can hang in there around the fringes, like Munster have, whilst re-developing, then that would be acceptable. No team lasts on top eternally but I suppose the true test is how well you manage the drop down so that it might produce a bounce back up again a year or two later.

Oh we'll see Lord... this rugby lark, it ain't getting any less complex as the years go by.

Your telling me, I'm Welsh and know only too well.