Who will be the big names left out of the Lions Squad.

First topic message reminder :

Newspapers today reporting that Chris Robshaw could be the fourth England captain in five tours to not make the cut for the Lions.

With so many positions filled with players of equal merit it must be a selection nightmare confirming who is vital and who in-necessary.

Quite often when called up to a tour after not making the first cut a player has excelled and made a huge impact on the tests. Hope is not over for those who aren't included.

So who in your opinion would be the star players left out of tomorrows Announcement...???

fa0019 wrote:If Wilkinson isn't left behind and Jenkins is selected how will Gatland justify his selections?

He can't say that JW wasn't chosen because he would be with Toulon until the end of the cup final... as Jenkins will not be released either.

If he does do the above he has to argue or state (as I'm sure journalists will ask) that he thought Biggar/Farrell etc were better players and better suited to the series/the pressure etc... given near every pundit/current player around the world (Dan Carter, John Smit, Matt Giteau etc) has said they'd take him it seems he would be in a one man army with that argument and it could put a lot of pressure on him.

No one in their right mind believe Wilkinson is the right man for this lions tour. Too old, too slow, incapable of gettng the outside backs moving

Sexton is miles ahead of him

fa0019 wrote:Hook was pretty shocking in the last tour if I recall.

Well he kicked a late long penalty to win the game against WP, but apart from that...

N.B. I wouldn't take him.

TJ...... well nearly the whole (unbiased) rugby world must be out of their mind then...... or maybe

TJ wrote:

fa0019 wrote:If Wilkinson isn't left behind and Jenkins is selected how will Gatland justify his selections?

He can't say that JW wasn't chosen because he would be with Toulon until the end of the cup final... as Jenkins will not be released either.

If he does do the above he has to argue or state (as I'm sure journalists will ask) that he thought Biggar/Farrell etc were better players and better suited to the series/the pressure etc... given near every pundit/current player around the world (Dan Carter, John Smit, Matt Giteau etc) has said they'd take him it seems he would be in a one man army with that argument and it could put a lot of pressure on him.

No one in their right mind believe Wilkinson is the right man for this lions tour. Too old, too slow, incapable of gettng the outside backs moving

Sexton is miles ahead of him

And Farrell can.... how many tries did England score in this years 6N?

flyhalffactory wrote:TJ...... well nearly the whole (unbiased) rugby world must be out of their mind then...... or maybe

Really - I have seen no pundits worth listening to say Wilko should go - its only the usual St Jonny fanbois.

Dan Carter said he'd take him on twitter.

John Smit said so after the HC SF as did Matt Giteau (a man who was knocked out of the World Cup twice by Wilkinson).

Yeah, those 3 go weak at the knees whenever they see JW coming. Typical jonny fan's.

fa0019 wrote:Dan Carter said he'd take him on twitter.

John Smit said so after the HC SF as did Matt Giteau (a man who's a team mate of Wilkinson's and who wants the Lions to lose the series).

Fixed that for you.

View has a perpetual anti English prejudice to grind.
No English players
He will be proved wrong by the more objective Mr Gatland... in about an hour's time. View can then come back on here and explain what a Dork he thinks Mr Gatland is for picking English players.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Dan Carter said he'd take him on twitter.

John Smit said so after the HC SF as did Matt Giteau (a man who's a team mate of Wilkinson's and who wants the Lions to lose the series).

Fixed that for you.

that damn Matt Giteau always playing mind games.... he really knows Priestland is the real ace in the hole. Crafty

These are really credible pundits. An aussie teammate, an all black 10 who will not have seen wilko play much. Wilkinson has not played international rugby for years, is way down the pecking order for England, has never been able to set the backs running, is in the twilight of his career and did you see the semi final? Wonderful distribution to the outside backs wasn't it - loads of tries scored. Never caught in posession either and stood nice and flat
1) any quotes?
2) any CREDIBLE pundits?

gregortree wrote:View has a perpetual anti English prejudice to grind.
No English players
He will be proved wrong by the more objective Mr Gatland... in about an hour's time. View can then come back on here and explain what a Dork he thinks Mr Gatland is for picking English players.

Id like to agree, but i have a suspicion we wont have a particularly large presence....4-5 maybe

so who would be a credible pundit then?

If Dan Carter is not a credible voice then I don't know who is.

I'm sure he keeps up with the game as much as any other rugby player/fan.... he knows the craft better then anyone and knows what makes a good player and what doesn't.

You have voiced your own opinions on the man yet you discount those of Dan Carter. Is your opinion more credible then his?

I don't think there will be any Sarries players. That means no Brown,Farrell,Barritt or Ashton.

You'll all be relieved if that happens. So will I actually. Would be nice if these players weren't pilloried for once.

To be fair Brown isn't pilloried. He just isn't rated by any of the media. Not rated as highly as a player who hasn't played international rugby in over a year.

If Gatland picks Hook,Laidlaw or Priestland as a fly half. Good luck!

If Brown does not go it will be a travesty.

fa0019 wrote:so who would be a credible pundit then?

If Dan Carter is not a credible voice then I don't know who is.

I'm sure he keeps up with the game as much as any other rugby player/fan.... he knows the craft better then anyone and knows what makes a good player and what doesn't.

You have voiced your own opinions on the man yet you discount those of Dan Carter. Is your opinion more credible then his?

Do you really think Carter has been watching Wilkinson play? or do you think he merely gave the english media what it wanted?

go on - remind me when Wilkinson last played international rugby and remind me why he has not since then?

Completely true Beshocked.

I will just be glad when this whole process is out of the way with and we can just look forward to thinking about test combinations. I am just reminded that Lions tour build up produces some of the laziest journalism imaginable:

- a single quote from anyone even remotely associated with SANZAR rugby can be spun into three paragraphs about the 'southern hemisphere' view;

- one good performance in one single game from March or April produces a piece about how that player 'must be in the mix' or 'has put themselves in contention';

- some punter at the bookies can actually produce headlines about 'a decision having been made';

- endless, pointless, worthless test XVs produced a year in advance citing players currently crippled with injury who would play 'if fit' - why even write it at all?;

- endless, pointless, worthless pieces from fantasically partisan sources claiming that their players/siblings/friends/godparents should be the first name on a test team sheet - apparently not mattering that they may currently be playing like an asthmatic ferret on Mescaline because "class is permanent", whatever in living feck that has ever meant.

Makes me think I should be a writer after all. You could produce 80% of that old scrote before you've even lifted your thighs from the pan in the morning.

What was once true remains true.

To play for a team that has been existence from 1891-2013 is a privilege and to coach it, doubly so. The test side should be able to give anyone a game. If they don't, because selection is flawed, the coach deserves all of the brickbats that comes their way.

I hope that Warren does a good job. For his sake as well as that of all home nations.

ok so your saying that Wilkinson has not played test rugby because Flood and Farrell are better??? ok so who has he completely outplayed in the last HC games Toulon have played?

Oh its the armchair ride argument I see. Saracens and Leicester were completely inferior to the Toulon pack right???

Considering England beat everyone apart from Wales, (and a few of the lads beat Aussi home & away in their recent carreer) don't see where this English' inferiority' complex is coming from. 5 from England but 15 between Scotland / Ireland ? England will supply the squad with a SH, FH, Centre, Hooker, Prop, Lock, one / two back row. I guess we'll know for sure soon enough.

...and Danny Care has a world class hairdo for a SH

george carlin I agree. The dust will settle soon hopefully.

faa019 actually to be fair the Toulon pack did do better vs the Sarries one.

All three fly halves have a pretty decent platform throughout the season.

Both Saracens and Leicester simply weren't disciplined enough. Gave Wilkinson too many shots at goal.

Farrell only missed one shot at goal. I don't remember Flood missing many if any but didn't get the opportunities Jonny did.

Leicester had two players sin binned which proved to be costly. Saracens were wasteful. Blowing two try scoring opportunities with forward passes.

gregortree what do you expect? England simply don't have as good players as those in Ireland,Wales or Scotland.

fa0019 wrote:ok so your saying that Wilkinson has not played test rugby because Flood and Farrell are better???

correct You are beginning to understand. wilkinson is an old slow player, Flood is far superiour at getting the back line moving, Farell is for the future. Remeber Wilkinson was dropped by the england coach.

To win this series we willneed to use the backs to score tries. we need the halfbacks to do this and Wilkinson is not the man to do so.

if you want to play 10 man rugby then Wilkinson is great - but we will not beat the aussies like that. Do you want Simon Shaw as well? How about tindall?

George Carlin wrote:Endless, pointless, worthless pieces from fantasically partisan sources claiming that their players/siblings/friends/godparents should be the first name on a test team sheet - apparently not mattering that they may currently be playing like an asthmatic ferret on Mescaline because "class is permanent", whatever in living feck that has ever meant.

When I was on mescaline, I thought I was an asthmatic ferret. Then I had a whale of a time playing frisbee with the sun.

gregortree wrote:Considering England beat everyone apart from Wales, (and a few of the lads beat Aussi home & away in their recent carreer) don't see where this English' inferiority' complex is coming from. 5 from England but 15 between Scotland / Ireland ? England will supply the squad with a SH, FH, Centre, Hooker, Prop, Lock, one / two back row. I guess we'll know for sure soon enough.

+1

Don't think England have been fantastic but not sure that Ireland or Scotland have been any better, nor their players on a consistent basis and frankly Wales are only getting so many look-ins because of that one (admittedly) comprehensive victory against us in the 6N. I'm slightly worried that players from all 4 nations don't look in great form at all

beshocked wrote:gregortree what do you expect? England simply don't have as good players as those in Ireland,Wales or Scotland.

silly me Beshocked, I keep forgetting that England are the perpetual B&I wooden spooners.... in some other universe.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Endless, pointless, worthless pieces from fantasically partisan sources claiming that their players/siblings/friends/godparents should be the first name on a test team sheet - apparently not mattering that they may currently be playing like an asthmatic ferret on Mescaline because "class is permanent", whatever in living feck that has ever meant.

When I was on mescaline, I thought I was an asthmatic ferret. Then I had a whale of a time playing frisbee with the sun.

x 50

TJ wrote:

fa0019 wrote:ok so your saying that Wilkinson has not played test rugby because Flood and Farrell are better???

correct You are beginning to understand. wilkinson is an old slow player, Flood is far superiour at getting the back line moving, Farell is for the future. Remeber Wilkinson was dropped by the england coach.

To win this series we willneed to use the backs to score tries. we need the halfbacks to do this and Wilkinson is not the man to do so.

if you want to play 10 man rugby then Wilkinson is great - but we will not beat the aussies like that. Do you want Simon Shaw as well? How about tindall?

Debatable.

Of the three, Wilkinson is the only one I'd consider to have reached "Elite" status, though you can legitimately question whether he's maintained that form.

Wilko was dropped because it was increasingly unlikely that he'd still be in contention for the World Cup in 2015, and because he was playing in France. If he were still playing in England, you'd fancy his chances of a recall. He may not be the best a getting the back line moving, but Farrell isn't much better, at least not consistently. You said yourself that he's one for the future - you don't take developmental prospects on a lions tour.

mawhis wrote:

TJ wrote:

fa0019 wrote:ok so your saying that Wilkinson has not played test rugby because Flood and Farrell are better???

correct You are beginning to understand. wilkinson is an old slow player, Flood is far superiour at getting the back line moving, Farell is for the future. Remeber Wilkinson was dropped by the england coach.

To win this series we willneed to use the backs to score tries. we need the halfbacks to do this and Wilkinson is not the man to do so.

if you want to play 10 man rugby then Wilkinson is great - but we will not beat the aussies like that. Do you want Simon Shaw as well? How about tindall?

Debatable.

Of the three, Wilkinson is the only one I'd consider to have reached "Elite" status, though you can legitimately question whether he's maintained that form.

Wilko was dropped because it was increasingly unlikely that he'd still be in contention for the World Cup in 2015, and because he was playing in France. If he were still playing in England, you'd fancy his chances of a recall. He may not be the best a getting the back line moving, but Farrell isn't much better, at least not consistently. You said yourself that he's one for the future - you don't take developmental prospects on a lions tour.

Glad I just posted that!

viewtothegym wrote:Can't see any English players making the cut, when you look at what Wales,Ireland and Scotland offer in each position England can't match up a better player.

I know this will be deemed as a Wind up but i honest see Gatland taking three or less English players.
Remember Gatland picked an Osprey team for Wales at first, he ain't afraid to go with what he wants he will not take anyone just to even out numbers.

If you disagree with me don't shout me down,prove me wrong....name English players who are better in their respective position than any one of the celtic nations.

English:
3 props
2 hookers
1 Lock
1 Flanker
2 HBs
1 Centre

View,
Oh dear, 10 English players. You need to write to Mr Gatland and tell him how wrong he has this.

So Jonny was discussed by Gats:

"The truth is Jonny wasn't up for it. He ruled himself out," tour manager Andy Irvine told BBC Radio 5 live. "He told Warren that he feels his body isn't in the right shape to complete a tour like this. I admire his honesty and integrity."
for gentleman Jonny.

gregortree wrote:So Jonny was discussed by Gats:

"The truth is Jonny wasn't up for it. He ruled himself out," tour manager Andy Irvine told BBC Radio 5 live. "He told Warren that he feels his body isn't in the right shape to complete a tour like this. I admire his honesty and integrity."
for gentleman Jonny.

Didn't Jonny also say that if Gatland found he needed him he might change his mind??? Fence sitting gent Jonny.....

SecretFly wrote:

gregortree wrote:So Jonny was discussed by Gats:

"The truth is Jonny wasn't up for it. He ruled himself out," tour manager Andy Irvine told BBC Radio 5 live. "He told Warren that he feels his body isn't in the right shape to complete a tour like this. I admire his honesty and integrity."
for gentleman Jonny.

Didn't Jonny also say that if Gatland found he needed him he might change his mind??? Fence sitting gent Jonny.....

How is that sitting on the Fence?

He said if he's needed for injury cover he'd be interested.

nathan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

gregortree wrote:So Jonny was discussed by Gats:

"The truth is Jonny wasn't up for it. He ruled himself out," tour manager Andy Irvine told BBC Radio 5 live. "He told Warren that he feels his body isn't in the right shape to complete a tour like this. I admire his honesty and integrity."
for gentleman Jonny.

Didn't Jonny also say that if Gatland found he needed him he might change his mind??? Fence sitting gent Jonny.....

How is that sitting on the Fence?

He said if he's needed for injury cover he'd be interested.

That's fence sitting. Doesn't need a dictionary to see it. Not a criticism of Jonny at all just humourously stabbing at the heroic bit that Gatland painted (not blaming Wilkinson at all as he's kept his gentlemanly silence) The story is just a little too saccharin for my taste buds. Paraphase: "Go on without me, my body is held together with glue, it's a young man's party...but if you have an injury for the test games themselves, I might do it"

And that, non dramatically, is what Jonny probably actually said - his heart wasn't in playing through the lesser games to prove himself - if Gatland wanted him, come get him...but for the tests only.

Not only a gent but a proud gent. O'Driscoll should have said the same.

[quote="SecretFly"][quote="nathan"]

SecretFly wrote:

That's fence sitting. Doesn't need a dictionary to see it. Not a criticism of Jonny at all just humourously stabbing at the heroic bit that Gatland painted (not blaming Wilkinson at all as he's kept his gentlemanly silence) The story is just a little too saccharin for my taste buds. Paraphase: "Go on without me, my body is held together with glue, it's a young man's party...but if you have an injury for the test games themselves, I might do it"

And that, non dramatically, is what Jonny probably actually said - his heart wasn't in playing through the lesser games to prove himself - if Gatland wanted him, come get him...but for the tests only.

Not only a gent but a proud gent. O'Driscoll should have said the same.

WTF? Have you been sniffing glue again Fly?

BOD wants one more go at a B&I series win. Last chance.

[quote="GunsGerms"][quote="SecretFly"]

nathan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

That's fence sitting. Doesn't need a dictionary to see it. Not a criticism of Jonny at all just humourously stabbing at the heroic bit that Gatland painted (not blaming Wilkinson at all as he's kept his gentlemanly silence) The story is just a little too saccharin for my taste buds. Paraphase: "Go on without me, my body is held together with glue, it's a young man's party...but if you have an injury for the test games themselves, I might do it"

And that, non dramatically, is what Jonny probably actually said - his heart wasn't in playing through the lesser games to prove himself - if Gatland wanted him, come get him...but for the tests only.

Not only a gent but a proud gent. O'Driscoll should have said the same.

WTF? Have you been sniffing glue again Fly?

Guns, always explain the guffaws...."WTF?!!!!!".

GunsGerms wrote:Have you been sniffing glue again Fly?

No! Look out, Fly! That's flypaper!

Quick, this way, I've opened a window for you. No, that's the glass. Still the glass. Try flying towards the air.

I'm a smart Fly You don't last 40something years as a Fly without knowing a thing or two about glass, folded up papers, smart-ass comments, those buzzing things with blue lights and foul smelling gas coming from a can...........

606 can be full of the latter but I've survived it all!!!!!

gregortree wrote:BOD wants one more go at a B&I series win. Last chance.

Nah. Joe Schmidt reckons he can get one more year out of him for Ireland, then it is just a year till the 2015 WC. Well after that he is over halfway to the 2017 tour of NZ - and there he has real unfinished business.

LondonTiger wrote:

gregortree wrote:BOD wants one more go at a B&I series win. Last chance.

Nah. Joe Schmidt reckons he can get one more year out of him for Ireland, then it is just a year till the 2015 WC. Well after that he is over halfway to the 2017 tour of NZ - and there he has real unfinished business.

Nahh LT, those ABs who dropped him on his head retired a while ago.
Poor old BOD would really be p!ssed if he kept up his motivation to 2017 only to find his twin nemeses in pipe & slippers clapping from the club house rocking chairs.