Ulster academy products at other top flight teams.

Started thinking about this when I was waiting for a train, really struggling with the tight 5, any ideas?

15 - Jamie Smith (Dragons)
14 - Tommy Seymour (Glasgow)
13 - Ian Whitten (Exeter)
12 – Ian Humphreys (London Irish)
11 - Conor Gaston (London Irish)
10 - Gareth Steenson (Exeter)
9 -
8 – TJ Anderson(Connacht)
7 – Willie Faloon (Connacht)
6 – Neil Best (Worcester)
5 - Ryan Caldwell (Bath)
4 - James Sandford (London Irish)
3 - John Andress (Worcester)
2 -
1 -

Presume Andress came through your academy

Good shout Golden.

Did John Andress come through our academy?

Where is Ian Porter playing? Is it not top flight??

Is Neil Best not retired?

James McKinney and David McIlwaine arn't back yet, so you can count them at present.

Can't get any info on where Porter is now through google...

Kingshu wrote:Is Neil Best not retired?

James McKinney and David McIlwaine arn't back yet, so you can count them at present.

No Best was captaining Worcester in the Challenge Cup earlier this season, hes still there. Who are McKinney and McIlwaine playing for?

David McIlwaine is in ? Bristol??

I think?

And McKinney, ? Rotherham?

We've got five academy graduate Lions that we could lend you if you need to pad the team a bit.

Gave a shot at doing a Leinster one. Im stuck for props and second rows though

15. Geordan Murphy - Leicester
14. Johne Murphy - Munster
13. McSharry- Connacht
12. James Downey- Munster
11. Niall Morris - Leicester
10. Keatley- Munster
9. Paul O'Donoghue - Connacht
8.
7. Niall Ronan - Munster
6. Robin Copeland - Blues (?) not sure if he was in the academy. played for St Marys though.
5.
4.
3.
2. Jason Harris Wright- Bristol
1

Jamie Smith has been injured for pretty much his whole stay at Dragons - not sure he has actually played a competative game? Will be gone next week

dragon999 wrote:Jamie Smith has been injured for pretty much his whole stay at Dragons - not sure he has actually played a competative game? Will be gone next week

He's played a few times as I think I recall him playing against Ulster.

According to wiki he's made 4 appearances.

Artful_Dodger wrote:According to wiki he's made 4 appearances.

thanks for that AD - struggling to remember them!

Yeh I can see why, I think hes mainly turned out for Newport in the Premiership rather than the Dragons. Wasn't a good move for him and not a good signing for the Dragons, I very much doubt he's anything better than whats coming through the Dragons academy. From what I've heard though he was shown the door at Ulster for something which was said/done off the pitch.

James Sandfford (lock somewhere) and Sean Dougall?

Sandford is a good shout. Think Dougall really plays for Munster A so not really top flight, same as McKinney and McIlwaine.

Need a scrumhalf, a hooker and a loosehead now. Anyone know where Ian Porter is or can think of any others?

MrsP wrote:Did John Andress come through our academy?

Where is Ian Porter playing? Is it not top flight??

I've seen Porter playing in the AIL this season for Banbridge IIRC

What's happening to Blane mcilroy? He's away at the end if the season, isn't he?

Golden wrote:Gave a shot at doing a Leinster one. Im stuck for props and second rows though

15. Geordan Murphy - Leicester
14. Johne Murphy - Munster
13. McSharry- Connacht
12. James Downey- Connacht
11. Niall Morris - Leicester
10. Keatley- Munster
9. Paul O'Donoghue - Connacht
8.
7. Niall Ronan - Munster
6. Robin Copeland - Blues (?) not sure if he was in the academy. played for St Marys though.
5.
4.
3.
2. Jason Harris Wright- Bristol
1

You can have Ruaidri Murphy(Brumbies) at 1 and Eoin Sheriff (Saracens) at lock.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Sandford is a good shout. Think Dougall really plays for Munster A so not really top flight, same as McKinney and McIlwaine.

Actually Dougall is a good shout he's played 12 times for Munster.

Is Jamie Smith retiring?

In terms of quality it is difficult to beat the scarlets exports. I have only named the internationals, 5 of whom are also Lions. The Ulster products are second rate in comparison.

Mike Phillips (Bayonne)
Dwayne Peel (Sale)
Lee Byrne (Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Stephen Jones (Wasps)
Tavis Knoyle (Gloucester)
Lou Reed (Cardiff Blues)

Ahm ..... yeh.

Obviously Ulster's best academy products stay with the province and get into our first team.....like most of our first team. Why do you think the Scarlets can't hold onto to their best players and are effectively being used as a feeder club by stronger teams?

Is that a good thing?

I'm not sure that having your best players moving away from your region is necessarily something to celebrate, is it?

You might consider it better if your internationals and Lions stayed at the club which invested in them, no?

Great minds Dodger!

Artful_Dodger wrote:Ahm ..... yeh.

Obviously Ulster's best academy products stay with the province and get into our first team.....like most of our first team. Why do you think the Scarlets can't hold onto to their best players and are effectively being used as a feeder club by stronger teams?

Lack of funds.

If scarlets could just hold onto their homegrown players, within 3 or 4 years they would have one of the strongest squads in Europe.

Ulster's academy is weak by comparison as evidenced by the need to recruit so many foreign players.

Scrumdown wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Ahm ..... yeh.

Obviously Ulster's best academy products stay with the province and get into our first team.....like most of our first team. Why do you think the Scarlets can't hold onto to their best players and are effectively being used as a feeder club by stronger teams?

Lack of funds.

If scarlets could just hold onto their homegrown players, within 3 or 4 years they would have one of the strongest squads in Europe.

Ulster's academy is weak by comparison as evidenced by the need to recruit so many foreign players.

I'm going to assume that you're just wumming now as the Scarlets have more NWQ than Ulster (Adriaanse, Snyman, Earle, Manu, Ball and Timani) which is 6 compared to Ulster who have Afoa, Muller, Pienaar, Payne and Williams which is 5 NIQ. As for Ulster having a 'weak' academy....well its such a stupid statement I'm not even going to respond to it.

Adriaanse and Manu are second and 3rd choice to Samson Lee (21 year old tight head playing every game)
Timani is leaving for France next season.
Ball is welsh qualified.

Snyman and Earle are the only first choice foreign recruits.

The Ulster team, without their 5 foreign players would be a outside the top 4 rabo direct positions.

The current scarlets players plus the 8 internationals from their academy playing at other clubs would be a side capable of progressing to the knockout stages of Europe.

So why are you signing all of these NWQ players whilst watching home grown talent go out the door? If you have the money to sign someone like John Barclay how have you not got the money to keep the likes of Morgan or Reed or North??

Anyway my post was a bit of fun to see if I could put together an entire 15 out of Ulster academy players who are now playing elsewhere for top flight clubs, I really don't see why you've turned into a 'the Scarlets have a better academy than Ulster' debate.

Artful_Dodger wrote:So why are you signing all of these NWQ players whilst watching home grown talent go out the door? If you have the money to sign someone like John Barclay how have you not got the money to keep the likes of Morgan or Reed or North??

Anyway my post was a bit of fun to see if I could put together an entire 15 out of Ulster academy players who are now playing elsewhere for top flight clubs, I really don't see why you've turned into a 'the Scarlets have a better academy than Ulster' debate.

Just wanted to point out in response to the original post how successful the scarlets academy has been over the years. You seemed to suggesting that Ulster's academy was exceptional. It isn't.

I agree with you regarding John Barclay but the Scarlets received transfer fees for North and Morgan which in total amounted to nearly £400K which is money the scarlets are unable to turn down. John Barclay is probably very affordable in comparison.

How are ulster able to afford the likes of afoa, pieenar and muller? What is ulster's cap?

There is no cap.....why would the IRFU impose a salary cap on the provinces?

I didn't suggest that our academy was 'exceptional'....but it is pretty damn good. In the last two seasons alone - Jackson, L.Marshall, Gilroy and Henderson have all become internationals. We have more coming as well with Olding, Allen and a couple of props looking very promising. Our first team which is the team that is at the top of the Rabo and has made the knockouts of the HC 3 seasons in a row always includes 9 or 10 players that came through our academy system. We also have a huge number of academy products at other teams around the home nations.

Anyway, I think you're a bit shallow if you have a problem with someone talking up their clubs academy which is clearly producing a huge amount of talent. Why feel the need to come in and start getting like this...?

Look forward to playing your boys in the semi final, which we almost certainly will.

Why do the Scarlets have no money? I see their average Rabo attendance fell substantially this season, despite being in line for the Play-offs. Why does no-one want to watch them play? If the Acadmey's so good, why do none of those players want to play for their region?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Golden wrote:Gave a shot at doing a Leinster one. Im stuck for props and second rows though

15. Geordan Murphy - Leicester
14. Johne Murphy - Munster
13. McSharry- Connacht
12. James Downey- Connacht
11. Niall Morris - Leicester
10. Keatley- Munster
9. Paul O'Donoghue - Connacht
8.
7. Niall Ronan - Munster
6. Robin Copeland - Blues (?) not sure if he was in the academy. played for St Marys though.
5.
4.
3.
2. Jason Harris Wright- Bristol
1

You can have Ruaidri Murphy(Brumbies) at 1 and Eoin Sheriff (Saracens) at lock.

Geordan Murphy and Johne Murphy were never in our academy as far as I know.

As of next season you could have

15. Andrew Conway - Munster
14. Fionn Carr - Connacht
13. McSharry- Connacht
12. James Downey- Connacht
11. Niall Morris - Leicester
10. Johnny Sexton - Racing Metro
9. Paul O'Donoghue - Connacht
8. Robin Copeland - Blues
7. Niall Ronan - Munster
6.
5. Bob Casey - London Irish (still playing apparently!)
4. Eoin Sheriff - Saracens
3. Jamie Hagan - London Irish
2. Tom Sexton - Melbourne Rebels
1. Ruaidri Murphy - Brumbies

Struggling to think of another flanker of ours playing elsewhere.

don: the scarlets are slowly getting there financially, but still a bit to go. we are improving as a business each year and showing year on year improvement. Two other factors about not being able to retain our academy are a) offer what other clubs do b) keep all our academy players within the salary cap.

Here's an article by the western fail about our current financial state. But take it with a pinch of salt, we aren't their favourite region so it's a bit of sensationalism.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/scarlets-made-trading-loss-13m-3315222

Here's my attempt at academy team:

1) Owen Evans - Dragons
2) Sam Parry -Dragons
3)
4)Dom Day- Bath
5) Lou Reed- Cardiff Blues
6) Damien Welch - Exeter Chiefs
7) Nic Cudd- Dragons
8) Ben Morgan - Gloucester (drifting in Merthyr when we put him through our academy system)

9) Mike Phillips - Bayonne
10)Stephen Jones - Wasps
11) Martyn Thomas - Gloucester
12)Gavin Evans - Cardiff Blues
13)
14) George North - Saints
15) Lee Byrne - Clemornt

Sorry to hijack your thread Dodger, good idea!

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Is Neil Best not retired?

James McKinney and David McIlwaine arn't back yet, so you can count them at present.

No Best was captaining Worcester in the Challenge Cup earlier this season, hes still there. Who are McKinney and McIlwaine playing for?

Best has recently come back from injury I think. Best shape of his career apparantly. Still the best player Ulster have produced in the pro era.

Scrumdown wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:So why are you signing all of these NWQ players whilst watching home grown talent go out the door? If you have the money to sign someone like John Barclay how have you not got the money to keep the likes of Morgan or Reed or North??

Anyway my post was a bit of fun to see if I could put together an entire 15 out of Ulster academy players who are now playing elsewhere for top flight clubs, I really don't see why you've turned into a 'the Scarlets have a better academy than Ulster' debate.

Just wanted to point out in response to the original post how successful the scarlets academy has been over the years. You seemed to suggesting that Ulster's academy was exceptional. It isn't.

I agree with you regarding John Barclay but the Scarlets received transfer fees for North and Morgan which in total amounted to nearly £400K which is money the scarlets are unable to turn down. John Barclay is probably very affordable in comparison.

How are ulster able to afford the likes of afoa, pieenar and muller? What is ulster's cap?

Scrumdown why you trying to WUM, you trying to build on the Ulster/Scarlets rivalary???

Last year we could have had Bowe, and Wilson on the list of Ulster players abroad, but have brought them back, Maybe Scarlets wil do in furture for North and others on your list, and your Scarlets abroad team would look poorer.

I don't think that trying to point out Scarlets players abroad and saying they are better than Ulsters is anything to shout about, I'm sure you'd rather keep North and bring the others back, if anything it would be a disappointment from a Scarlets POV.

Scarlets cap is just for the H-cup and is self imposed, if the regions want to remove it they can.

"How are ulster able to afford the likes of afoa, pieenar and muller?"
By having decent crowds a games,
with good sponsorship the Kukri deal has the potential to be the biggest kit deal in Irish club rugby, bank of Ireland etc etc.
and support from the Union (hopefully the WRU get behind the regions this summer).

I don't think you can attack our NIQ players when you have more, you point Scarlets are squad players, but whats the point in that, if you have a NWQ player you want them to be the best NWQ player you can get, otherwise you may as well have a WQ squad player.

Anyway the Scarlets academy is good, the Ulster academy is good as well, lets not turn it into a willy waving contest.


Did anyone mention Cronin at Doncaster Knights

Anyway pioden gorllewin whats happening Stradey Park is there money still to come in from its sale?

Truely hope that this Summer WRU and regions can sort out thier differences, and agree a better funding model.

I enjoy the Ulster/Scarlets rivalay as we have been going through our ups and downs at about the same time, have some very tight games, and in look like ramping it up a notch by meeting in the Playoffs.

Kingshu we recently opened a club store/cafe in the centre of town that will hopefully generate some money. We've also sold some of our car parking space to one of those chain restaurants. So we are heading in the right direction - personally can't see any resolution anytime soon between regions and wru. Welsh rugby has historically has always had a certain about of drama. Will always be the way I'm afraid.

rodders wrote:Best has recently come back from injury I think. Best shape of his career apparantly. Still the best player Ulster have produced in the pro era.

Nonsense. The man is a walking attitude problem.

Personally pioden gorllewin, I'd like to see that the WRU grant the same funding but also add in central contracts for 20 or so players, not sure what they would want in return, a region placed as a development region, so they can redirect funding to the other 3?
Its an tough one, WRU want the same control over the regions as IRFU have for the provinces, but don't want to put in the same money.
Regions want freedom English clubs have.

Lets hope its resovled this summer along with the H-cup, but I think thats asking too much.

Mickado wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Golden wrote:Gave a shot at doing a Leinster one. Im stuck for props and second rows though

15. Geordan Murphy - Leicester
14. Johne Murphy - Munster
13. McSharry- Connacht
12. James Downey- Connacht
11. Niall Morris - Leicester
10. Keatley- Munster
9. Paul O'Donoghue - Connacht
8.
7. Niall Ronan - Munster
6. Robin Copeland - Blues (?) not sure if he was in the academy. played for St Marys though.
5.
4.
3.
2. Jason Harris Wright- Bristol
1

You can have Ruaidri Murphy(Brumbies) at 1 and Eoin Sheriff (Saracens) at lock.

Geordan Murphy and Johne Murphy were never in our academy as far as I know.

As of next season you could have

15. Andrew Conway - Munster
14. Fionn Carr - Connacht
13. McSharry- Connacht
12. James Downey- Connacht
11. Niall Morris - Leicester
10. Johnny Sexton - Racing Metro
9. Paul O'Donoghue - Connacht
8. Robin Copeland - Blues
7. Niall Ronan - Munster
6.
5. Bob Casey - London Irish (still playing apparently!)
4. Eoin Sheriff - Saracens
3. Jamie Hagan - London Irish
2. Tom Sexton - Melbourne Rebels
1. Ruaidri Murphy - Brumbies

Struggling to think of another flanker of ours playing elsewhere.

Are you sure Casey is still playing?? You could put James Hart (Grenoble) at 9. Probably a better player as he's in and around the Grenoble matchday squad.

I was saying that, but I am mistaken. The LI website is indeed confusing.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:Best has recently come back from injury I think. Best shape of his career apparantly. Still the best player Ulster have produced in the pro era.

Nonsense. The man is a walking attitude problem.

Whats that got to do with his playing ability?

Would you really rate Neil Best ahead of Stephen Ferris, Tommy Bowe etc?

I think you would be in a fairly small minority group there Rodders. And that is just taking his playing skills into account, not his ability (or lack thereof) to play in a team.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:Best has recently come back from injury I think. Best shape of his career apparantly. Still the best player Ulster have produced in the pro era.

Nonsense. The man is a walking attitude problem.

Whats that got to do with his playing ability?

Everything when he couldn't be bothered to do more than go through the motions of the last year of his contract whilst the likes of Bowe, Best, Ferris etc. were still putting their heart and soul into the cause.

Don't care how much potential he wasted. Great players are committed.

MrsP wrote:Would you really rate Neil Best ahead of Stephen Ferris, Tommy Bowe etc?

Yeah I would MrsP. Ferris, Bowe and Rory as well are phenomenal players but I rate Best in his pomp marginally ahead.

Notch wrote:Everything when he couldn't be bothered to do more than go through the motions of the last year of his contract whilst the likes of Bowe, Best, Ferris etc. were still putting their heart and soul into the cause.

Don't care how much potential he wasted. Great players are committed.

Maybe you shouldn't judge someone's commitment and character when you don't know all the facts.