Surprise Lions injury replacements

Simple really. Anyone think that Gatland might have more surprises in store for us and perhaps the expected Best,Robshaw,Hook, Brown etc won't be the first replacements flown out in the event of injury?

Perhaps if any players from Clermont/Toulon/Leinster/Ulster/Leicester/Northamptonset their respective finals alight!

Names like Lee Byrne, Steffon Armitage, Madigan, Mile Ross, Sean Cronin, Trimble/Gilroy, Chris Henry, Anthony Allen, Jordan Crane, Ben Foden and Tom Wood/Courtney Lawes spring to mind as guys who might be off the radar but could be seen to fit into the game plan as the lions tour progresses and have the advantage of bringing a winning mentality out to Australia.

Ulster12 wrote:Simple really. Anyone think that Gatland might have more surprises in store for us and perhaps the expected Best,Robshaw,Hook, Brown etc won't be the first replacements flown out in the event of injury?

Perhaps if any players from Clermont/Toulon/Leinster/Ulster/Leicester/Northamptonset their respective finals alight!

Names like Lee Byrne, Steffon Armitage, Madigan, Mile Ross, Sean Cronin, Trimble/Gilroy, Chris Henry, Anthony Allen, Jordan Crane, Ben Foden and Tom Wood/Courtney Lawes spring to mind as guys who might be off the radar but could be seen to fit into the game plan as the lions tour progresses and have the advantage of bringing a winning mentality out to Australia.

Who knows what Gatland will do - he has some strange thought processes

But if the ones highlighted in Red get anywhere near the Lions - I will switch off and watch football (For 20mins anyway)

In addition to those Risky highlights, I'd be very surprised if Anthony Allen is under any sort of consideration. Hasn't played internationally for several years and I think would be behind at least 3 or 4 options for 12 (or 10-12) should an injury happen. Hook, 12trees and Scott would for me be well ahead of him.

Don't though think Tom Wood is off the radar at all - he and Mike Ross are probably the two guys in the list who could have a legitimate grievance about not being picked in the first place.

Yeah suggesting Tom Wood is not on the radar is a bit harsh...IMO he's one of the best flankers in the world...and both he AND Kelly Brown should have been considered above Lydiate in the first place anyway...

As for the likes of Jordan Crane? Why? When Ben Morgan, Billy Vunipola are ahead for England and they are keeping in shape by touring...

Not too mention the No.8's at other countries.

For each position, I see the likely cover call-up to be as follows:

1.James 2.Best 3.Ross 4.Ryan 5.Launchberry 6.Brown 7.Robshaw 8.Jones 9.Care 10.Wilkinson 11.Wade 12.Twelvetrees 13.Scott 14.Trimble 15.Goode

Outside of that group I could see Euan Murray, Nathan Hines, Jim Hamilton, Tom Wood, Johnnie Beattie, Ben Morgan, Greg Laidlaw, James Hook, Ian Madigan, Keith Earls, Simon Zebo and Mike Brown being possibles. I'd be surprised though.

It's funny that the players still playing their hearts out in league games and Europe are the ones who might be injured and not get onto the plane designed to be filled with the best players in the home nations.......


plus...even if they do all make it, they've been warned their extra League and Europe efforts might conspire against them getting a sniff at the first test....

How bizarre, how bizarre

Still at least Vinopolu and Stevens have a couple of weeks to learn how to scrummage effectively. Oh sorry, i forgot, they are going to Oz where scrummaging isnt a lost art, it's an art form they have never discovered!

Watching Ryan Grant last week for Glasgow makes me feel ever more aggrieved that he has been overlooked for the Sarries duo:
Grant is a better scrummager than both Sarries props and he is almost as effeective in the loose as Vinupolo and he doesnt need a lie down in a darkened room after 50 minutes to recover from his exertions!

I agree that Ryan Grant has been unfortunate, as has Paul James. Two very decent looseheads not going, and yet Vunipola and Jenkins get the nod, one whose scrummaging is questionnable and the other has been sitting on the bench all season.

I saw Vunipola in defeat against Toulon and I thought his ball carrying was very strong indeed, and could understand where Gatland was coming from. I still think Grant and James had very strong cases though.

sensisball wrote:Still at least Vinopolu and Stevens have a couple of weeks to learn how to scrummage effectively. Oh sorry, i forgot, they are going to Oz where scrummaging isnt a lost art, it's an art form they have never discovered!

Watching Ryan Grant last week for Glasgow makes me feel ever more aggrieved that he has been overlooked for the Sarries duo:
Grant is a better scrummager than both Sarries props and he is almost as effeective in the loose as Vinupolo and he doesnt need a lie down in a darkened room after 50 minutes to recover from his exertions!

On form Grant has been very unlucky. Not many give Adam a really tough time but Grant did recently, definatley the form LH. On current form better than Healy and Gethin but streets ahead of Vunipola in the core disciplines of the position

1) Stevens is a strange decision..id be gutted if he werre anywhere near the England squad.

2) I think most English fans were shocked at Vunipolas inclusion...however...in the latter half of the season some of his performances have simply been immense...so i think we see why gatland has chosen him.

Also to be fair to Vunipola his rate of improvement over the year has been pretty remarkable.

He didnt quite look the part in the AI's but there have been some good performances since then

Vunipola - i understand why he was considered, as he can be very destructive in the loose - and potentially offers something different - I however still think it is the wrong decision, as he is not on that good form, can not scrum to save his life and last 40 mins before out of puff

Stevens - Even if we take the Multiverse theory as fact, there i still no Universes where Stevens is even considered for a lions tour except this one. THE biggest joke of the whole tour

Thats not strictly true about Vunipola risky...

GeordieFalcon wrote:1) Stevens is a strange decision..id be gutted if he werre anywhere near the England squad.

2) I think most English fans were shocked at Vunipolas inclusion...however...in the latter half of the season some of his performances have simply been immense...so i think we see why gatland has chosen him.

1 - Agree. Stevens last England appearances were eminently forgetable. There can be plenty of agrieved tight head props about that selection.

2 - I think Mako V's selection is a bit of a gamble by Gatland, but can understand why he's doing it. Excluding the England v Wales game where Walsh's interpretation of the scrum laws make assessment of Vunipola's set piece work difficult, he's held his own in the set piece and is an absolute beast in the open field. A rapidly improving player and one whose style could be very effective if playing conditions are fast as expected in Aus.

Riskysports wrote:Vunipola - i understand why he was considered, as he can be very destructive in the loose - and potentially offers something different - I however still think it is the wrong decision, as he is not on that good form, can not scrum to save his life and last 40 mins before out of puff

Stevens - Even if we take the Multiverse theory as fact, there i still no Universes where Stevens is even considered for a lions tour except this one. THE biggest joke of the whole tour

Someone is going to be embarrassed by the end. Either Stevens himself, who wouldn't have even voted himself onto the tour or the people who claim he's going to be a disaster. In truth, we don't really know yet if a few Universes will actually be queueing up to buy him by the end of the tour. Stranger things have happened in galaxies far far away.

Vunipola is being knocked but I think hes the best ball carrying prop availabile better than Jenkins, grant, jones, Stevens, healy the lot he is the most mobile by a mile. His scrum ain't the best but no is Australia

sensisball wrote:Still at least Vinopolu and Stevens have a couple of weeks to learn how to scrummage effectively. Oh sorry, i forgot, they are going to Oz where scrummaging isnt a lost art, it's an art form they have never discovered!

Watching Ryan Grant last week for Glasgow makes me feel ever more aggrieved that he has been overlooked for the Sarries duo:
Grant is a better scrummager than both Sarries props and he is almost as effeective in the loose as Vinupolo and he doesnt need a lie down in a darkened room after 50 minutes to recover from his exertions!

Ryan Grant is a high quality player and certainly a better scrummager than Vunipola. There isn't a prop in the world who can do what Vunipola does in the loose though. Not only his carrying work but his hands, use of space and awareness is top drawer. If you watch the Saracens v Bath match he was sublime in the loose with a winger's finish in the corner and some super offloads whilst going to ground.

As an impact player in the OZ test I couldn't think of anyone better in the front 5.

I think Stevens is probably going because (a) he can play both sides, and (b) is mobile.

I personally would have gone with 6 props, 3 specialists on either side. In terms of Stevens therefore, it's really Mike Ross and Euan Murray who have a case. Neither are particularly mobile in the loose though, and Gatland is clearly looking for workrate from his props. Still, I'd have taken either ahead of Matt Stevens.

FES - I am not really sure I would class Stevens as mobile

As I said, I understand Vunipola, it is a little bit of a gamble, but sometimes these pay off

I hope lee byrne has a massive game tomorrow to show what the lions will be missing been in amazing form for clemont

To be fair, the Lions are pretty well stocked at fullback with Halfpenny, Hogg and Kearney.

I really don't think Lee Byrne can have any complaints.

Could you imagine him flying cips out,saying his knowledge of the aussies could give us an edge.

Delve could be a surprise tho.

I remember when Stevens was at Bath his offloading and work around the park in tandem with Lee Mears was outstanding.

That was an awful long time ago but it would be great to see him return to that sort of form. Do think he'll be a very good tourist though, certainly won't let his head drop no matter what as he knows he's lucky to be there.

Would be nice for Hook to have a great (not too great) game against the Lions

Riskysports wrote:

Ulster12 wrote:Simple really. Anyone think that Gatland might have more surprises in store for us and perhaps the expected Best,Robshaw,Hook, Brown etc won't be the first replacements flown out in the event of injury?

Perhaps if any players from Clermont/Toulon/Leinster/Ulster/Leicester/Northamptonset their respective finals alight!

Names like Lee Byrne, Steffon Armitage, Madigan, Mile Ross, Sean Cronin, Trimble/Gilroy, Chris Henry, Anthony Allen, Jordan Crane, Ben Foden and Tom Wood/Courtney Lawes spring to mind as guys who might be off the radar but could be seen to fit into the game plan as the lions tour progresses and have the advantage of bringing a winning mentality out to Australia.

Who knows what Gatland will do - he has some strange thought processes

But if the ones highlighted in Red get anywhere near the Lions - I will switch off and watch football (For 20mins anyway)

Risky, I'd start running and wouldn't stop; bad mouthing Trimble in these parts is like bad mouthing MacGuyver around the spinster Bouviers.

The others in red though, totally agree with you. Lawes in the most over rated "athlete" in rugby. And Steffon just looks like he is carrying an extra 5 or 6 kilos on his belly, which is impressive in the heat of the south of France.

I always liked Hook at centre, played well at 13 with Roberts 12 for Wales. Love watching players who you know have that bit of magic to open up defences, always exciting. I think Owen Farrell could benefit from a handler like him and an extra set of creative eyes in the centre to take some pressure off and do some of the calling moves and kicks.

debaters1 wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

Ulster12 wrote:Simple really. Anyone think that Gatland might have more surprises in store for us and perhaps the expected Best,Robshaw,Hook, Brown etc won't be the first replacements flown out in the event of injury?

Perhaps if any players from Clermont/Toulon/Leinster/Ulster/Leicester/Northamptonset their respective finals alight!

Names like Lee Byrne, Steffon Armitage, Madigan, Mile Ross, Sean Cronin, Trimble/Gilroy, Chris Henry, Anthony Allen, Jordan Crane, Ben Foden and Tom Wood/Courtney Lawes spring to mind as guys who might be off the radar but could be seen to fit into the game plan as the lions tour progresses and have the advantage of bringing a winning mentality out to Australia.

Who knows what Gatland will do - he has some strange thought processes

But if the ones highlighted in Red get anywhere near the Lions - I will switch off and watch football (For 20mins anyway)

Risky, I'd start running and wouldn't stop; bad mouthing Trimble in these parts is like bad mouthing MacGuyver around the spinster Bouviers.

The others in red though, totally agree with you. Lawes in the most over rated "athlete" in rugby. And Steffon just looks like he is carrying an extra 5 or 6 kilos on his belly, which is impressive in the heat of the south of France.

funnyExiledScot wrote:To be fair, the Lions are pretty well stocked at fullback with Halfpenny, Hogg and Kearney.

I really don't think Lee Byrne can have any complaints.

Yea I know that and when side was named I didn't argue the point because there are 3 solid full backs but he would be my choice if there was an injury. Plus IMHO I think he's been motmre solid than Kearney over past season for club but hasn't played international so I understand the why he wasn't picked but this isn't me slating Kearney because I think he could be the underdog and get the starting 15 top

I think he's not a bad call for being a fullback replacement, but with three specialists in the squad I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Hook were to be called up instead - covering all sorts of positions: 10, centre and 15.

There's also Brown and Goode as well.

I doubt we'll see Byrne getting called up, despite pretty solid form for Clermont over the last couple of seasons. Always rated Byrne, and he was unlucky to get injured on the last tour when in pole position.

There does seem to be a distinct lack of utility players i.e Hook, Ryan Jones, feel free to add more.

I guess Farrell can play centre but there are better centre options on tour.

Maitland can play a bit at fullback, Halfpenny has played a fair bit on the wing and Stuart Hogg has played a few games at centre this season, but I agree, not a huge amount of versatility in the backs. I suppose Bowe can play 13 if needed, but North and Cuthbert really are wing specialists, and although Kearney played some early rugby on the wing, I can't see him anywhere other than 15.

My worries come down to two points. Only having two fly halves, one of which isn't in good form, and not having a decent footballing 12. I'd have liked Hook or Madigan to be part of this touring party.

I used to think Henson was up there with the best 12s could mix things up all skills you could want and would have been ideal out side iver 10 and I think he would have brought the best out in Manu my personal opinion but madigan or hook could do same role at 12 witj Manu out side

funnyExiledScot wrote:Maitland can play a bit at fullback, Halfpenny has played a fair bit on the wing and Stuart Hogg has played a few games at centre this season, but I agree, not a huge amount of versatility in the backs. I suppose Bowe can play 13 if needed, but North and Cuthbert really are wing specialists, and although Kearney played some early rugby on the wing, I can't see him anywhere other than 15.

My worries come down to two points. Only having two fly halves, one of which isn't in good form, and not having a decent footballing 12. I'd have liked Hook or Madigan to be part of this touring party.

All good points, big risk with no back up 10.

Didn't Phillips end up as a centre on the last Lions Test against SA ?

Henson briefly was up there with the best 12s, but he just couldn't get it together off the field, and got embroiled in a whole load of nonsense. He would have made a great 12 to Roberts or Tuilagi at 13, with Sexton at 10.

Shame, wonderful talent and great player in his pomp. Nowhere close to a call-up for this tour though.

There were options for Gatland. Madigan, Hook, Scott or Twelvetree would in my view have made good options for that playmaker role. I just feel that the current options in the squad are a little heavy footed and one-dimensional, Sexton aside. Davies and BOD are clever players, but neither are particularly talented footballers, and I can't see who is going to be putting them in space, or making that offload available. Maybe Jamie Roberts, but I think it's a concern we don't have a strong alternative.

dummy_half wrote:In addition to those Risky highlights, I'd be very surprised if Anthony Allen is under any sort of consideration. Hasn't played internationally for several years and I think would be behind at least 3 or 4 options for 12 (or 10-12) should an injury happen. Hook, 12trees and Scott would for me be well ahead of him.

Don't though think Tom Wood is off the radar at all - he and Mike Ross are probably the two guys in the list who could have a legitimate grievance about not being picked in the first place.

nor has stevens! Who knows what will happen with Gatlands picks!

If Mathew Tait has a stormer in the Aviva final then he could be a real outside bet, covering wing, centre and full back.

I really don't see it happening, though. None of the coaches, Rowntree included, are in his fan club, and any early replacement in the backs probably needs to have a kicking game, given the incumbents. As the tour goes on, unless there is carnage in one particular area, you really only need reserve players to bolster the midweek side and play an active part in training sessions. That tends to point towards solid selections rather than potential game breakers.

If one of your favourite players didn't make the first cut, they need to be called up before the Waratahs game on the 15th June to have any chance of featuring in the test squad. Front row, scrum halves and, on this tour, fly halves are the only likely exceptions.

Most Lions parties tend to make use of their initial touring squad rather than allowing a late replacement to leapfrog them. The players we recall making a Test impact from outside - Ryan Jones, Tom Croft, Rob Andrew, Martin Corry - all joined early.

Croft and Corry only went on to the Tests because there were further injuries (Ferris and Back respectively). Croft was given another leg-up when Ryan Jones replaced Ferris but had to be sent home too without playing. Rob Andrew always had a shot because there were also only two fly halves in 1989. In 2005, Jones was drafted in after the fourth tour match, made his first start in the sixth, got on the bench for the first Test, and into the starting line-up for the last two. Dallaglio and Simon Taylor had both been injured, while the other replacement, Simon Easterby had joined only a few days earlier than Jones, which made it a straight fight.

In all likelihood, then, a reserve player needs two men in his position to go down. One to get him on the tour by just after the fourth game at the latest, the other in the next two matches.

I really like Tait as a player, and the Aussie pitches would certainly suit his style, but I think his charge is probably a little on the late side.

This time round I can't really see a bolter making it into the Test XV, other than possibly at fly half (i.e. were Sexton to get injured and Farrell's lull in form to continue).

The other possibility would be if Hibbard were to get injured and Best to get into the squad early doors. He has the game to knock Youngs and Hartley to one side.

I think Hook would be pretty close as cover due to him being able to play 10, 12 and 15, though that said I wouldn't have him in there.

If they need an out an XV then I would say Byrne would be a good shout likewise at No8 if they need an out an out No8 then Morgan would be my shout.

Gareth Delve- already out there, playing well, knows Southern Hemisphere rugby.

On current form Allen is comfortably the best 12 in England. Showed off his carrying, passing, big touch finder (doesn't bring those put often) and massive hits in defence against Quins in the AP semi. England have publicly stated he's being rested through injury so suspect he's having a minor op in the summer.

Jordan Crane is in good form, big effort in defence, tireless carries in the tight and great hands. He's not quite at 100% though and after missing the entirety of last season needs this summer off before stepping up to international level again.

Croft and Corry only went on to the Tests because there were further injuries (Ferris and Back respectively).

Rugby fan, Croft was top quality in the friendlies before the first test, Ferris was no certainty for the 6 shirt even if he was the favourite.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Rugby fan, Croft was top quality in the friendlies before the first test, Ferris was no certainty for the 6 shirt even if he was the favourite.

Ferris was no certainty, but his injuries started early. He missed the first tour match after getting crocked in training. It was another training session knock which later sent him home. Nevertheless, he did seem to be pencilled in as a starter. Croft looked to be in better form, especially in that Golden Lions match, but it was a feature of that first Test that McGeechan didn't make tour form picks across the board. Remember, he went in with the idea of having a dominant scrum and so tended to fancy Ferris over Croft. As it turned out, our backline ended up being our main threat and Croft's athleticism proved to be an asset.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Croft and Corry only went on to the Tests because there were further injuries (Ferris and Back respectively).

Rugby fan, Croft was top quality in the friendlies before the first test, Ferris was no certainty for the 6 shirt even if he was the favourite.

I used to think that as well but I rewatched the Living with the Pride DVD recently and after Ferris' injury McGeechan says something like "that's a real shame because, at least in my mind, he was there". That's not to say it would have been the right call though.

nathan wrote:

dummy_half wrote:In addition to those Risky highlights, I'd be very surprised if Anthony Allen is under any sort of consideration. Hasn't played internationally for several years and I think would be behind at least 3 or 4 options for 12 (or 10-12) should an injury happen. Hook, 12trees and Scott would for me be well ahead of him.

Don't though think Tom Wood is off the radar at all - he and Mike Ross are probably the two guys in the list who could have a legitimate grievance about not being picked in the first place.

nor has stevens! Who knows what will happen with Gatlands picks!

Stevens played international rugby in 2012. Allen hasn't since 2005.

Notch wrote:Gareth Delve- already out there, playing well, knows Southern Hemisphere rugby.

Benched by the Rebels for the last few month

Never performed internationally

Not a Lion

Ulster12 wrote:I always liked Hook at centre, played well at 13 with Roberts 12 for Wales. Love watching players who you know have that bit of magic to open up defences, always exciting. I think Owen Farrell could benefit from a handler like him and an extra set of creative eyes in the centre to take some pressure off and do some of the calling moves and kicks.

I agree Hook's best position at test level has been 13, unfortunately his defensive frailties and lack of genuine pace means that both JD2 and Scott Williams are ahead of him for Wales and an even longer list for the Lions.

I hope he takes advantage of a Summer off to focus on developing his skills and comes back next season a bit nearer to the player we all hoped he would become.

Allen played 2 tests in 2006 against NZand ARG,he wasn't considered for England this summer due to medical advice,he will not be going to Australia.

I reckon Tom Wood is probably the "back-up" flanker on Gatland's list, but Lancaster has him as the tour Captain for Argentina. could be interesting who gets the nod if Mr Wood gets a call from Warren.

Also I think Matt Stevens was chosen with one thing in mind - Captain of the Dirt-trackers.

Mr Bounce wrote:I reckon Tom Wood is probably the "back-up" flanker on Gatland's list, but Lancaster has him as the tour Captain for Argentina. could be interesting who gets the nod if Mr Wood gets a call from Warren.

Also I think Matt Stevens was chosen with one thing in mind - Captain of the Dirt-trackers.

Wood over Robshaw, Brown and R.Jones?

Looking at each position below is what I'd take currently but I can't agree with myself from day to day at the moment so who knows what Gatland may go for!

1.Grant - Sheridan close behind as I'd probably have picked both for the main squad anyway!
2.Best
3.Murray
4.Hines
5.Ryan
6.Brown - Jones and Wood are also very good players who would do a great job if picked
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Care
10.Wilkinson - Madigan very close behind as I'd have loved him in the squad as a bolter

11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.Scott
14.Zebo
15.Brown

Not a bad side looking at it now! I'd happily see them take on the current squad.