Scottish Pro team thread

by 123456789 Mon 27 May 2013, 5:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

There doesn't seem to be much going on but I thought it might be an idea to set up a thread devoted to transfers, coaching news and general new information to do with the Scottish pro clubs over the summer

by tigertattie Tue 30 Jul 2013, 1:49 pm

I'd rather he found us a SQ 10

or brought Heathcote up from Bath!

by **RDW** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 1:52 pm

Would any of the 10s from the Southern Kings really be a better option than what we've got? Can't see any of them being SQ.

Do the Kings have any players that could be classed as genuine targets? i.e. not near SA callups and looking for a move abroad...

Where's Biltong when you need him!

by Weegie Wizard Tue 30 Jul 2013, 1:58 pm

The main 10 at the Kings is called Catrakillis or something like that and he is not bad. The name doesnt suggest he is SQd though. I'm sure his first name is Ivan or some such.
The back up is George Whitehead - a guy with the dodgiest tash you have ever seen so I hope you sign him. Honestly, google him. He's hilarious.

by **RDW** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:03 pm

http://www.ultimaterugby.com/player/edit/3769

Laugh

by Weegie Wizard Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:06 pm

Most of the rest of the Kings team wouldn't add much to the Edinburgh 1st XV with the exception of Engelbrecht at no 8 and Waylon Murray at centre. Murray has been capped but there is so much competition at centre for the boks he's not likely to get any more.

I suspect the Lions will come in for a few of these guys though so it depends on them being keen on a move overseas.

by **George Carlin** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:09 pm

Nope - nobody I would really take from the Kings apart from Engelbrecht, Catrakilis and Vergallo (the latter being a Puma scrum half, whom we don't need). Catrakilis is from Greek, Cypriot and Saffer stock and so unless he's hiding his celticness with Moriarty-esque stealth...

by **Biltong** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:12 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Would any of the 10s from the Southern Kings really be a better option than what we've got? Can't see any of them being SQ.

Do the Kings have any players that could be classed as genuine targets? i.e. not near SA callups and looking for a move abroad...

Where's Biltong when you need him!

Catrakilis is very good. The Stormers let him go before the Super XV started and now they must feel like complete plonkers.

He has been the calm influence at the Kings that never wilted, even against the best teams, still very young, great accuracy with the boot, and a good defender. He does have a fair bit of attacking nous, and I think it won't be long before he is noticed by Heyneke Meyer.

Whitehead has been the back up for Catrakilis, decent, but needs more game time to truly assess whether he can consistently perform.

But Catrakilis in my view has a promising future

by **Biltong** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:14 pm

George Carlin wrote:Nope - nobody I would really take from the Kings apart from Engelbrecht, Catrakilis and Vergallo (the latter being a Puma scrum half, whom we don't need). Catrakilis is from Greek, Cypriot and Saffer stock and so unless he's hiding his celticness with Moriarty-esque stealth...

Engelbrecht has been a monster for the Kings, in fact I rate their entire back row higher than the Bulls' this season.

by **RDW** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:15 pm

Would Engelbrecht realistically fancy a move to Scotland??

How do you rate Solomons Biltong?

by **Biltong** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:19 pm

you talking about the coach, Alan Solomons?

He fell off the radar a bit here in SA, he used to coach the Western Province and then was assistant coach to I think it was Harry Viljoen.

Then left, since he came back he has been at the Kings, but I think he is decent without being spectacular.

by **Biltong** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:20 pm

RDW, don't you guys have enough South Africans already? Cry

by **RDW** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:22 pm

Well if you've not read earlier in the thread, he is the new Edinburgh coach!

We don't have that many Saffers, just Nel, VDV, Srauss...that's not too bad!

We'll ignore the South African links of Dave Denton and Greig Tonks for now....

by **Biltong** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:24 pm

You guys can have Earl Rose. But Engelbrecht and Catrakilis is hands off. Hug

by funnyExiledScot Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:25 pm

I'm pretty pleased with this announcement. He's got plenty experience so hopefully he can get things moving quickly enough and get the set piece and defence organised.

In terms of signings hopefully he'll have some good recommendations, and be able to convince a couple of decent players to sign up.

We'd got to the stage where we just needed to appoint someone, so to get a coach with Solomons' experience is a good thing. Perhaps slightly convenient that of all the forwards coaches in the world, the best fit for Solomons just so happened to be Stevie Scott, but perhaps he's on a short deal to act as a transition coach, to give some continuity. I'd hope that Solomons can re-shape the coaching team as he pleases next summer, based on how things go this season.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:26 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Really happy with this - let's get some stability in the club.

Also happy with Stevie Scott as forwards coach. He's a passionate Edinburgh man and did a decent job stopping the train wreck last season when he took over.

Now if Solomons can bring a 24 year old 6ft 4 SA blindside whose Aunty once ate Haggis then it will be an inspired appointment!

RDW, I'd suggest a couple of additional coaching appointments as well tbh

by **Biltong** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:27 pm

I am sure Solomons will bring a few Kings with him. He has worked with them all year, so he knows what he would like to take with him.

by **Biltong** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:33 pm

Maybe someone can answer me this.

How is it tat Scottish clubs can afford South African players?

I am trying to understand how from what I have been reading (Scotland Rugby Union not having a lot of money) it is that with a lack of funds and small setup, the Scottish clubs can lure South African players?

by Weegie Wizard Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:37 pm

If he could manage to bring Engelbrecht to Edinburgh what a move that would be. They have worked together for a few years now so it might be possible. If he was to move, a few of the other SA Super Rugby teams would want him.

by **George Carlin** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:41 pm

Biltong wrote:Maybe someone can answer me this.

How is it tat Scottish clubs can afford South African players?

I am trying to understand how from what I have been reading (Scotland Rugby Union not having a lot of money) it is that with a lack of funds and small setup, the Scottish clubs can lure South African players?

I think that special arrangements can be made, Bilt. Strauss was not cheap but the SRU stood behind the wage bill and when Maitland became available, the SRU paid his first year salary itself. The budget for the Scottish clubs isn't small though, Bilt. Only the Spreys and Leinster get more, I think.

by Tramptastic Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:46 pm

Biltong wrote:Maybe someone can answer me this.

How is it tat Scottish clubs can afford South African players?

I am trying to understand how from what I have been reading (Scotland Rugby Union not having a lot of money) it is that with a lack of funds and small setup, the Scottish clubs can lure South African players?

Its a couple of things Biltong, mostly that the SRU chief before Dodson was an accountant and massively reduced the debt to a manageable level (something like 11 million now?) and the recent BT sponsorship deal has boosted the pro teams quite a bit! Glasgows efforts last season and Edinburghs heinekin cup run the year before that have boosted Scottish rugbys image so more sponsors etc

by **RDW** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:50 pm

Edinburgh's HK rubn brought in 2 million or something like that, and the SRU are investing more in the pro teams now.

I think we're on a par with the Welsh at least.

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 2:59 pm

Edinburgh and Glasgow wage bills are nearer the English teams cap at 4.2mil compared to the welsh cap at 3.5.

I think Edinburgh still have 300k+ left for the new coach to spend I can Remember Dodson saying the money will be kept back for the new coach.

Don't know how much extra the BT deal gives the teams.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:00 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think we're on a par with the Welsh at least.

I'm not happy seeing this sentence, regardless of context!

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:08 pm

Main difference between all teams is Edinburgh don't pay anything out there budget to play at Murrayfield and Glasgow pretty much pay Pennies for Scotstoun since Glasgow City Council Where desperate for the facilities to be used all year round, I think Glasgow City council pay something towards hosting the Sevens aswell for the run up to the Commonwealth games which saves the SRU more.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:15 pm

I think the appointment of Solomons is excatly what Edinburgh needed. Furthermore it's nice to see Stevie Scott being rewarded.

He also has (just) enough time to get a game plan together, get to know his players, their likes, their dislikes and how to turn them into a dangerous club.

I have said for a while Edinburgh have the core players to become competative now we need to start showing it.

The first few training sessions under a new coach will be interesting, everyone trying to impress and set their stalls out. Solomons needs to build the team around a core group of players and build the pride in the guys that seemed to be lost under Bradley's tenure.

Heathcoate being prised away from Barf vomit

would be a good start.

by **Biltong** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:18 pm

The finances sounds good then, why does the SRU not add another team then?

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:19 pm

Biltong wrote:The finances sounds good then, why does the SRU not add another team then?

Scottish Pro team thread - Page 19 1347041234

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:21 pm

Biltong wrote:The finances sounds good then, why does the SRU not add another team then?

Not quite that good!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:22 pm

Don't forget that the Scottish sides (and others) still have to compete with the French where the budgets of the best run to multiples of €10m

by **RDW** Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:34 pm

I think we need to be careful here - is the £4 million odd not the total budget, as opposed to salaries?

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:34 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Don't forget that the Scottish sides (and others) still have to compete with the French where the budgets of the best run to multiples of €10m

In addition I don't think there is enough united support anywhere except the highlands to sustain a third pro team. The Borders is a rugby hot bed but as the Border Rievers (Scotland's last pro team) found out the fans are to loyal to the clubs of their town like Gala, Melrose, Kelso and Hawick.

Finally when you see the lack of Strength and Depth at Edinburgh and to a lesser extent Glasgow during international window's you'll find out that Scotland probably couldn't produce enough top class players to keep a third side competative.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:35 pm

....and yet we (Edinburgh) still handed Toulouse and Racing Metro a few beatings the season before last. If only Glasgow could complete in Europe.....

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:38 pm

Biltong wrote:The finances sounds good then, why does the SRU not add another team then?

Think priority is getting Edinburgh setup near what Glasgow have long term, we need to keep a coach longer than a season.

Making sure the Top clubs have the resources to compete in the B&I cup

U20 still need sorting, either club or district academy's.

A proper Schools league setup

Still a lot to do before we even think of a new team.

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:42 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think we need to be careful here - is the £4 million odd not the total budget, as opposed to salaries?

No total budget for Pro teams 2013/14 is 12.3 million or 6.15 million each, its about 70% on player wages since the 2 teams don't really pay for stadium upkeep. If they paid for stadium upkeep it would be nearer 60% on player wages which would be on par with the welsh cap.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:45 pm

Agree Ally2k. It's also important to maintain Glasgow where they are in the league and improving them as a European prospect - it would be easy to just focus on sorting out the mess that is Edinburgh, but improving Glasgow is also important. Glasgow are good enough now to be a HC QF side, and the money from that would be hugely beneficial.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:45 pm

allyt2k wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I think we need to be careful here - is the £4 million odd not the total budget, as opposed to salaries?

No total budget for Pro teams 2013/14 is 12.3 million or 6.15 million each, its about 70% on player wages since the 2 teams don't really pay for stadium upkeep. If they paid for stadium upkeep it would be nearer 60% on player wages which would be on par with the welsh cap.

There is a difference between Pro Teams Players wages budget and the total budget. Total budget may well be £6.15m, but the figure that would be used if their was a salary cap would be around £4m.

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:54 pm

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
allyt2k wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I think we need to be careful here - is the £4 million odd not the total budget, as opposed to salaries?

No total budget for Pro teams 2013/14 is 12.3 million or 6.15 million each, its about 70% on player wages since the 2 teams don't really pay for stadium upkeep. If they paid for stadium upkeep it would be nearer 60% on player wages which would be on par with the welsh cap.

There is a difference between Pro Teams Players wages budget and the total budget. Total budget may well be £6.15m, but the figure that would be used if their was a salary cap would be around £4m.

No Team can spend there entire budget on player wages, unless your team doesn't want a coaching team, physios, travel to away games, fitness coaches, club manager, advertisement, pay tax (although some football clubs seem to get away with not doing this), medical, admin staff the list goes on and on.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:57 pm

allyt2k wrote:
Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
allyt2k wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I think we need to be careful here - is the £4 million odd not the total budget, as opposed to salaries?

No total budget for Pro teams 2013/14 is 12.3 million or 6.15 million each, its about 70% on player wages since the 2 teams don't really pay for stadium upkeep. If they paid for stadium upkeep it would be nearer 60% on player wages which would be on par with the welsh cap.

There is a difference between Pro Teams Players wages budget and the total budget. Total budget may well be £6.15m, but the figure that would be used if their was a salary cap would be around £4m.

No Team can spend there entire budget on player wages, unless your team doesn't want a coaching team, physios, travel to away games, fitness coaches, club manager, advertisement, pay tax (although some football clubs seem to get away with not doing this), medical, admin staff the list goes on and on.

Yes, I know. Just confirming that the 6.15m quoted is the entire budget not the wage budget. Welsh and English figures quoted on this thread are wage budgets only, so wanted to clarify that.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:57 pm

No Team can spend there entire budget on player wages, unless your team doesn't want a coaching team, physios, travel to away games, fitness coaches, club manager, advertisement, pay tax (although some football clubs seem to get away with not doing this), medical, admin staff the list goes on and on.

You mean the "Edinburgh approach"?

by Weegie Wizard Tue 30 Jul 2013, 3:59 pm

Does anyone know if Glasgow and/or Edinburgh are in effect self sufficient?

If all tv money, sponsorship, gate receipts and prize money were kept with the team that earned it, does anyone know how much each team would need in funding from the SRU?

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:04 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
No Team can spend there entire budget on player wages, unless your team doesn't want a coaching team, physios, travel to away games, fitness coaches, club manager, advertisement, pay tax (although some football clubs seem to get away with not doing this), medical, admin staff the list goes on and on.

You mean the "Edinburgh approach"?

Yeah pretty much everything in that list is what Edinburgh got wrong last season especially the coaching team and we just shouldn't have bothered with the travel to away games since we where mince at home.

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:14 pm

Weegie Wizard wrote:Does anyone know if Glasgow and/or Edinburgh are in effect self sufficient?

If all tv money, sponsorship, gate receipts and prize money were kept with the team that earned it, does anyone know how much each team would need in funding from the SRU?

No they aren't and no where near it, I don't think they will ever be truly self sufficient there's not many rugby clubs at the top level that don't rely on there Union or a wealthy backer. They could get to a stage where the SRU can reduce there backing and concentrate on other areas U20/Clubs/3rd team hopefully in the not to distant future.

2011/12 5.7 million was the difference between what Edinburgh/Glasgow brought in as revenue and what they spent.

Edit:Sorry actually they could be self sufficient but they would probably have a lower wage budget than Connacht

by Weegie Wizard Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:29 pm

So if we work to that estimate of £3m per team per year subsidy from the SRU, then we shouldn't be that far from a 3rd team.

5 or so more years of building revenue at the 2 current teams and paying down the SRU debt should make it a possibility.

by tigertattie Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:33 pm

Biltong wrote:Maybe someone can answer me this.

How is it tat Scottish clubs can afford South African players?

You need to take into consideration the package as a whole

The main benefit of signing for a Scottish club is that you get to live in Scotland kiss

Its not just about the money. The oppertunity to live in God's country is not to be sniffed at

If Calsberg did Countries................

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:37 pm

Weegie Wizard wrote:So if we work to that estimate of £3m per team per year subsidy from the SRU, then we shouldn't be that far from a 3rd team.

5 or so more years of building revenue at the 2 current teams and paying down the SRU debt should make it a possibility.

Yeah but even 3 million total budget wont go far, Dodson stated you would need closer to 5 million just for a team to be competitive in the pro 12 never mind europe.

by allyt2k Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:40 pm

Also if the SRU had close to 3 million spare to spend the prem Clubs would probably ask for funding to go semi pro/pro.

by tigertattie Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:58 pm

If I were in charge of the SRU, I'd be saying to Ayr

"give me a business plan and if it meets the requirements we will fund you to the tune that Glasgow and Edinburgh are, we will enter you into the Rabo (if this is possible) and you will start off as the Scottish Pro development side"

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 30 Jul 2013, 4:59 pm

tigertattie wrote:
Biltong wrote:Maybe someone can answer me this.

How is it tat Scottish clubs can afford South African players?

You need to take into consideration the package as a whole

The main benefit of signing for a Scottish club is that you get to live in Scotland

Its not just about the money. The oppertunity to live in God's country is not to be sniffed at

If Calsberg did Countries................

You ever been to Whitburn?

by Brendan Tue 30 Jul 2013, 5:25 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agree Ally2k. It's also important to maintain Glasgow where they are in the league and improving them as a European prospect - it would be easy to just focus on sorting out the mess that is Edinburgh, but improving Glasgow is also important. Glasgow are good enough now to be a HC QF side, and the money from that would be hugely beneficial.

It would be good for Glasgow to go on a european run esp if there are negoations going on. Realisicly Glasgow should be expecting to get into the top two rankings teirs for HC that way they would be more likely to make one of the 11 places on offer for a european run. Didn't they come second in their group just like edinburgh but were worse placed second so no Amlin.

I think if no long term deal is done in europs the SRU may look to add a third team so Rabo can be bigger.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 30 Jul 2013, 5:44 pm

That's right Bredan, Glasgow did finish second in their group two seasons ago, albeit with insufficient points to qualify. It wasn't a total disaster of a campaign, the biggest disappointment was losing to Bath. No self-respecting side should lose to Bath.

This season Toonie needs a proper challenge in the Heineken Cup to take the next step. Rabo playoff isn't enough anymore, Glasgow should be aiming higher with the players they have.

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