Intriguing backdrop to NZ France series

Lots of interest in the Lions and rightly so. Over the Tasman, an intriguing battle between New Zealand and France will play out next month as well.

Both sides will be without key players for different reasons. Top 14 commitments will see some players prevented from making games for France. Exoduses, injuries, retirements and sabbaticals will see New Zealand players ommitted from the squads.

France and the wooden spoon are more associated with French cuisine. Not the Six Nations. They will arrive with a squad who will inevitably be dismissed by the NZ media. They never learn and no doubt clippings will be collected and posted on the dressing room.

If that weren't motivating enough, the first test just so happens to be the venue in which the two teams met last time: Eden Park RWC final 2011. This will not be lost on the French players who run out for that first test and I for one am going to be intrigued as to how motivated the French players will be and how much that affects their performance. Let's be honest: they don't lack for motivation in that regard.

To counter that NZ will no doubt have in their minds the last test in which they played: the embarrassing defeat at Twickenham. It's not a case of losing but how they lost: England did what we normally pride ourselves on, namely unlocking defences and scoring tries. In a way they will be mindful of the World Cup final as well. It was a victory but by no means a convincing victory and you could argue that they will be motivated to rectify that ugly win.

It is not only France who will have a degree of experimentalism about them. Last season NZ incorporated a few new faces into the squad. This season it may well be an even bigger group of new caps (or players with few caps like Ranger) coming into the side. The NZ coaching set up have also hinted at a new gameplan to keep people guessing.

France will also play in Christchurch (they will only travel down there for the match and will base themselves in Auckland), which has not been a happy hunting ground for NZ in terms of convincing performances. Then to finish in Taranaki. For some reasons in the less well known stadiums we tend to put on our strongest attacking displays (the Cake Tin is the one that bucks the trend).

Phillipe Saint-André will be under pressure to perform. Hansen will be under pressure to wipe out the memory of Twickenham and if there is an experimental edge to this French side and given their performance inthe 6N, failure to win will be judged even harsher.

So, as always, there is much to play for and in a way France go in with the pressure taken off them based on the circumstances of the type of squad they will bring. The focus is definitely on the Lions as it is a rare event. But there is a lot of other rugby being played in June and this particular series does not find both teams going in with their strongest squads. But there is certainly a lot to play for and the rugby will be no less compelling. It's very difficult to predict what will happen between these two countries because they have a knack of producing the unpredictable on the field. This, for me at least, will be no curtain raiser for the Lions tests. They will be contests worth watching in their own right. I have a sneaking suspicion that the wooden spoons will be used in anger by the French, not as reminders of the depths they can plumb. I for one can't wait to see how these tests unfold.

Soyez forts: kia kaha

Hope you are right and that France will produce at least one spirited performance and possibly get away with one win. its a huge task though for so many unexperienced players to go down there to test themselves against the best. Because of the distance and the timing it is also relatively low key here so hopefully the pressure will be off and the desire to prove something will be there

It really doesnt matter how bad France ever look they always have the knack of pulling off big wins against big teams when they really want to.

I wouldnt be surprised to see them win the series nor would I be surprised if they got hockeyed.

Theyve never won a true series (apparently they won one 1-1 once due to points differential where no one actually knew that was the case till after the match!) so to win this over 3 would be a first, and a huge upset. But they'll probably win one, because they always do when logistically nothing supports it and the AB's until Oz recently are amongst the worst starters in test rugby. Thats the French for you...

I havn't seen the squads yet, but I worry for the future of French international rugby, with so much money in the T14 and usual hotbeds of French talent admitting defeat and talking about spending big on NFQ players to keep up I don't see where the quality or performances are going to come from.

The likes of Fofana would have slotted into very classy teams in the past, but now he stands out as their only real top class talent, and they have to resort to fielding some very flawed players.

NZ on home soil should glide past France in reality, maybe a spirited performance and fightback but eventually I just don't see the quality that was so common in French teams of the past.

Taylorman wrote:...apparently they won one 1-1 once due to points differential where no one actually knew that was the case till after the match!...

Some of the All Blacks evidently didn't know, judging from the way they just ended the game without trying to close the points gap in a final play. However, I certainly knew when I was watching that match live so it was no secret, and I doubt I was the only one who knew how the series result was being decided.

I'm looking forward to this series. In a way, it feels like a throwback to the era when you didn't know much about two major international teams. I've watched some Top 14 and Super Rugby but not nearly enough to give me a working knowledge of how players are performing. Hope it's close.

I'm very much looking forward to this series. In fact I've got tickets to the Test in New Plymouth. It will be my first ever test outside Wellington.
French are weak yadda yadda yadda. They have beaten us 4 times in New Zealand and done weird stuff against us so I wont be relaxed until we are 30 points up with 15 to go.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I havn't seen the squads yet, but I worry for the future of French international rugby, with so much money in the T14 and usual hotbeds of French talent admitting defeat and talking about spending big on NFQ players to keep up I don't see where the quality or performances are going to come from.

The likes of Fofana would have slotted into very classy teams in the past, but now he stands out as their only real top class talent, and they have to resort to fielding some very flawed players.

NZ on home soil should glide past France in reality, maybe a spirited performance and fightback but eventually I just don't see the quality that was so common in French teams of the past.

[quote] its basically too many imports for up and coming young French talent to come through . take the number ten position . France hasn't got one due to the likes of Wilkinson and hook taking those places . i think its opposite with Wales . most of our first team going over shores even our second team players so theses places get filled by our under 20s

France have no hope and will be stuffed by 50 points each time.

France will win the series because they finished bottom in the six nations.

Taylorman wrote:Theyve never won a true series (apparently they won one 1-1 once due to points differential where no one actually knew that was the case till after the match!) so to win this over 3 would be a first, and a huge upset. But they'll probably win one, because they always do when logistically nothing supports it and the AB's until Oz recently are amongst the worst starters in test rugby. Thats the French for you...

Great post

Taylorman get your facts right, in 09 was the points differential in 94 they won a series outright 2-0 followed up by a third win in a row in Paris in 05. The only northern hemisphere team to either win a series or win 3 in a row. Should have won the wc final as everyone knows except for the little helping hand nz got from Joubert.

DOD wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Theyve never won a true series (apparently they won one 1-1 once due to points differential where no one actually knew that was the case till after the match!) so to win this over 3 would be a first, and a huge upset. But they'll probably win one, because they always do when logistically nothing supports it and the AB's until Oz recently are amongst the worst starters in test rugby. Thats the French for you...

Great post

Taylorman get your facts right, in 09 was the points differential in 94 they won a series outright 2-0 followed up by a third win in a row in Paris in 05. The only northern hemisphere team to either win a series or win 3 in a row. Should have won the wc final as everyone knows except for the little helping hand nz got from Joubert.

No, for them to have won they needed to have scored more points during the game, something they failed to do.

DOD wrote:Should have won the wc final as everyone knows except for the little helping hand nz got from Joubert.

Funny how nobody can recall that the only points scored due to an incorrect call were the French ones.

I don't think it's worth getting into the RWC 2011 debate again, whats done is done and who were robbed will stay robbed end of.

Jimmy

You can add Sexton to that list now too, and Borck James, and Morne Steyn, and Fernandez!!!

Last round of the T14 saw 4 french fly halves start a rugby match, that is awfull, but also the maximum Wales are able to field in Wales sooooo...

thebluesmancometh wrote:I don't think it's worth getting into the RWC 2011 debate again, whats done is done

Jimmy

You can add Sexton to that list now too, and Borck James, and Morne Steyn, and Fernandez!!!

Last round of the T14 saw 4 french fly halves start a rugby match, that is awfull, but also the maximum Wales are able to field in Wales sooooo...

Who was robbed????

NZ would have happily traded Owens for Joubert if they had Dan Carter at 10. Fact is France couldn't beat a team with Stephen Donald in it.

Big onus on the fresh pack. Locks and loosies will be in for a torrid time. Ranger has to be in the 22 each game. We need more X factor.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:I don't think it's worth getting into the RWC 2011 debate again, whats done is done

Jimmy

You can add Sexton to that list now too, and Borck James, and Morne Steyn, and Fernandez!!!

Last round of the T14 saw 4 french fly halves start a rugby match, that is awfull, but also the maximum Wales are able to field in Wales sooooo...

Who was robbed????

Been done to death not interested!

Back to French v NZ June 2013...

thebluesmancometh wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:I don't think it's worth getting into the RWC 2011 debate again, whats done is done

Jimmy

You can add Sexton to that list now too, and Borck James, and Morne Steyn, and Fernandez!!!

Last round of the T14 saw 4 french fly halves start a rugby match, that is awfull, but also the maximum Wales are able to field in Wales sooooo...

Who was robbed????

Been done to death not interested!

Back to French v NZ June 2013...

So why mention it then????

aucklandlaurie wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:I don't think it's worth getting into the RWC 2011 debate again, whats done is done

Jimmy

You can add Sexton to that list now too, and Borck James, and Morne Steyn, and Fernandez!!!

Last round of the T14 saw 4 french fly halves start a rugby match, that is awfull, but also the maximum Wales are able to field in Wales sooooo...

Who was robbed????

Been done to death not interested!

Back to French v NZ June 2013...

So why mention it then????

I didn't someone else did, I was trying to squash the same tired old argument... Move on!!!

No Bluesman you were the one that made the allegation that someone was robbed, why dont you say what you mean, or mean what you say....

aucklandlaurie wrote:
No Bluesman you were the one that made the allegation that someone was robbed, why dont you say what you mean, or mean what you say....

You kiwi's are all so precious and emotional, you have to accept the fact that theres a whole world outside of those two little islands, you will not drag me into the RWC 2011 debates 2 years after the tournament ended, I'm just not interested in it, like a lot of what I have read from numerous posters on here it's boring and

If you want to talk France NZ next month, or the state of French rugby (the only issue I care about on this thread) then please do so, otherwise shove off you insighting bugger!

Funny how discussion needs to stop only when NZ being disadvantaged is brought up.

Funny how discussion stops when people make allegations but when asked to explain, they suddenly lose their wish to prosecute their allegation and revert to insults.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Funny how discussion stops when people make allegations but when asked to explain, they suddenly lose their wish to prosecute their allegation and revert to insults.

So by saying the discussion is old and boring I'm insulting? By claiming your an insighting bugger is insulting?

I suggest you re read the thread, and if you want insults go read Taylormans responses to me yesterday when I dared not bow to all things kiwi

Get a grip mun, and either discuss the issue on the thread or give up the phishing and trolling

Regardless of getting done over in the WC final its interesting how NZ'ers forget the other results...

Why do they worry about the French so much...even a rather poor French team based on recent results.

Maybe its a cultural thing...the farm boys worried about their sophisticated cousins.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Funny how discussion stops when people make allegations but when asked to explain, they suddenly lose their wish to prosecute their allegation and revert to insults.

So by saying the discussion is old and boring I'm insulting? By claiming your an insighting bugger is insulting?

I suggest you re read the thread, and if you want insults go read Taylormans responses to me yesterday when I dared not bow to all things kiwi

Get a grip mun, and either discuss the issue on the thread or give up the phishing and trolling

Maybe Im wrong, but I sometimes I get the feeling that it really irks you that New Zealand won the World Cup. my suggestion to you is that if you havent got anything sensible to say then dont.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Funny how discussion stops when people make allegations but when asked to explain, they suddenly lose their wish to prosecute their allegation and revert to insults.

So by saying the discussion is old and boring I'm insulting? By claiming your an insighting bugger is insulting?

I suggest you re read the thread, and if you want insults go read Taylormans responses to me yesterday when I dared not bow to all things kiwi

Get a grip mun, and either discuss the issue on the thread or give up the phishing and trolling

Maybe Im wrong, but I sometimes I get the feeling that it really irks you that New Zealand won the World Cup. my suggestion to you is that if you havent got anything sensible to say then dont.

It hardly irks me, they were the favourites, best team on the planet bar none for the year or so before, and they were the team I had my money on. Nothing about NZ winning it irked me in the slightest, and thats all I will say.

Are the NZ Fra matches on at the same days as the Lions tests? Are there any schedule clashes?

They really are being overshadowed by the Lions tour but these games should seismic too.

I wanted France to win. Cest la vie.

GunsGerms wrote:Are the NZ Fra matches on at the same days as the Lions tests? Are there any schedule clashes?

They really are being overshadowed by the Lions tour but these games should seismic too.

There are tests on June 8,15 and 22 plus a game against Auckland on June 11.

Doubt they will be seismic... Interesting at best with a few new players on each side. Not too one-side is what I hope for.

not about the reffing, but I recall driving home from work one afternoon and listening to a nutter who had phoned radio sport to talk about the final:

'I wish people would stop going on about what a great performance it was. We were very lucky to win that one. we were lucky we had such good defence!'

dallym wrote:not about the reffing, but I recall driving home from work one afternoon and listening to a nutter who had phoned radio sport to talk about the final:

'I wish people would stop going on about what a great performance it was. We were very lucky to win that one. we were lucky we had such good defence!'

That is pretty awesome!

New Zealand dont fear anyone but France must be near there with the supporters .

aucklandlaurie wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:I don't think it's worth getting into the RWC 2011 debate again, whats done is done

Jimmy

You can add Sexton to that list now too, and Borck James, and Morne Steyn, and Fernandez!!!

Last round of the T14 saw 4 french fly halves start a rugby match, that is awfull, but also the maximum Wales are able to field in Wales sooooo...

Who was robbed????

We were robbed and mugged.

Bryce robbed us and Pocock mugged us.

Anyhow, this will be an interesting test series, which All Blacks aren't there barring McCaw

Biltong wrote:Anyhow, this will be an interesting test series, which All Blacks aren't there barring McCaw

I think this test series is far less about NZ, rather France ability to be led by plonkstain, and the quality of players they are managing to bring through a system designed to buy success rather than cultivate it!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:Anyhow, this will be an interesting test series, which All Blacks aren't there barring McCaw

I think this test series is far less about NZ, rather France ability to be led by plonkstain, and the quality of players they are managing to bring through a system designed to buy success rather than cultivate it!

Well that is what you get when clubs have no loyalty to the French Rugby Union

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:Anyhow, this will be an interesting test series, which All Blacks aren't there barring McCaw

I think this test series is far less about NZ, rather France ability to be led by plonkstain, and the quality of players they are managing to bring through a system designed to buy success rather than cultivate it!

Well that is what you get when clubs have no loyalty to the French Rugby Union

Ye. That wasn't a dig at NZ by the way, there is some intrigue around who they select, and how form players step up (Cruden, Ranger etc) but the big news in international rugby has to be the demise of the French national team despite the huge success of the club model.

Take the 10 position for example, only 4 French qualified 10's played in 14 teams last T14 round, and Michalak was almost giving games away on the international stage from the position! 2 very promising 10's had actually broken through last season, but the teams who allowed them the chance have just bought 10's in the shape of Steyn and Fernandez relegating them back to the bench!

Fofana is a good example, 4-6 years ago wouldve sat nicely into a midfield and back 3 combo that oozed class and threat from all over, today however he stands out as a lonely line threat amongst some very limited players (although I'd have him in any team in world rugby)

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:Anyhow, this will be an interesting test series, which All Blacks aren't there barring McCaw

I think this test series is far less about NZ, rather France ability to be led by plonkstain, and the quality of players they are managing to bring through a system designed to buy success rather than cultivate it!

Well that is what you get when clubs have no loyalty to the French Rugby Union

Ye. That wasn't a dig at NZ by the way, there is some intrigue around who they select, and how form players step up (Cruden, Ranger etc) but the big news in international rugby has to be the demise of the French national team despite the huge success of the club model.

Take the 10 position for example, only 4 French qualified 10's played in 14 teams last T14 round, and Michalak was almost giving games away on the international stage from the position! 2 very promising 10's had actually broken through last season, but the teams who allowed them the chance have just bought 10's in the shape of Steyn and Fernandez relegating them back to the bench!

Fofana is a good example, 4-6 years ago wouldve sat nicely into a midfield and back 3 combo that oozed class and threat from all over, today however he stands out as a lonely line threat amongst some very limited players (although I'd have him in any team in world rugby)

I'm with you on Fofana. One of my favourite players at the moment.

France win the series they arguably the most successful nation to tour NZ.
SA won 1937 (2-1)
Lions won 1971 (2-1)
Australia won 1986 (2-1)
France won 1994 (2-0)

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:Anyhow, this will be an interesting test series, which All Blacks aren't there barring McCaw

I think this test series is far less about NZ, rather France ability to be led by plonkstain, and the quality of players they are managing to bring through a system designed to buy success rather than cultivate it!

Well that is what you get when clubs have no loyalty to the French Rugby Union

Ye. That wasn't a dig at NZ by the way, there is some intrigue around who they select, and how form players step up (Cruden, Ranger etc) but the big news in international rugby has to be the demise of the French national team despite the huge success of the club model.

Take the 10 position for example, only 4 French qualified 10's played in 14 teams last T14 round, and Michalak was almost giving games away on the international stage from the position! 2 very promising 10's had actually broken through last season, but the teams who allowed them the chance have just bought 10's in the shape of Steyn and Fernandez relegating them back to the bench!

Fofana is a good example, 4-6 years ago wouldve sat nicely into a midfield and back 3 combo that oozed class and threat from all over, today however he stands out as a lonely line threat amongst some very limited players (although I'd have him in any team in world rugby)

I'm with you on Fofana. One of my favourite players at the moment.

Would you play him at centre though (especially 12), for France it makes sense, but if I were putting him in other teams such as Wales, or NZ I would consider him at wing, SA and Aus could use him at 13 and 12 respectively though. He is just so elusive.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:Anyhow, this will be an interesting test series, which All Blacks aren't there barring McCaw

I think this test series is far less about NZ, rather France ability to be led by plonkstain, and the quality of players they are managing to bring through a system designed to buy success rather than cultivate it!

Well that is what you get when clubs have no loyalty to the French Rugby Union

Ye. That wasn't a dig at NZ by the way, there is some intrigue around who they select, and how form players step up (Cruden, Ranger etc) but the big news in international rugby has to be the demise of the French national team despite the huge success of the club model.

Take the 10 position for example, only 4 French qualified 10's played in 14 teams last T14 round, and Michalak was almost giving games away on the international stage from the position! 2 very promising 10's had actually broken through last season, but the teams who allowed them the chance have just bought 10's in the shape of Steyn and Fernandez relegating them back to the bench!

Fofana is a good example, 4-6 years ago wouldve sat nicely into a midfield and back 3 combo that oozed class and threat from all over, today however he stands out as a lonely line threat amongst some very limited players (although I'd have him in any team in world rugby)

I'm with you on Fofana. One of my favourite players at the moment.

Would you play him at centre though (especially 12), for France it makes sense, but if I were putting him in other teams such as Wales, or NZ I would consider him at wing, SA and Aus could use him at 13 and 12 respectively though. He is just so elusive.

I thought he was wasted on the wing in the 6N for France. At the moment if he was a New Zealander I'd play him at 12 - Nonu needs a kick up the backside, he's been coasting all year.

Coasting? Is that what you call it? He isn't the only one who needsa a kick in that team though!

Ye he was wasted, but the French backline was disjointed and pathetic at times, in a better backline looking to utilise him instead of throw him the ball and see what he could do I think he'd be devestating. All his good work for France was from a flat footed, or broken play position, they really never worked him into any sort of decent position, in a better team he would run riot.

DOD there is always respect for sides that have beaten us. There is also respect for sides that haven't beaten us. But the former remind us of our fallibility whereas the latter are only potential threats to our winning percentage.

We lose matches. We played France twice in 2011 and won both games. Three if you account for the match in marseille in 2009 that erased the bitter memories of the 3N. We do lose matches but we also remember them.

BB Whitelock is out. Hooker might see a new face as well as the props. Could be a new face at 6 12 or 13 or winger and halfback. Maybe Cruden at 10. Plenty of new faces apart from McCaw.

GG at least two hours difference so back to back rugby rather than clashes with Lions. I intend to attempt going out and going through to midday at least once. Has to be done.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:DOD there is always respect for sides that have beaten us. There is also respect for sides that haven't beaten us. But the former remind us of our fallibility whereas the latter are only potential threats to our winning percentage.

We lose matches. We played France twice in 2011 and won both games. Three if you account for the match in marseille in 2009 that erased the bitter memories of the 3N. We do lose matches but we also remember them.

BB Whitelock is out. Hooker might see a new face as well as the props. Could be a new face at 6 12 or 13 or winger and halfback. Maybe Cruden at 10. Plenty of new faces apart from McCaw.

GG at least two hours difference so back to back rugby rather than clashes with Lions. I intend to attempt going out and going through to midday at least once. Has to be done.

Kia..these are my two favourite international sides outside Ireland. When they play each other it is always fascinating. And is much more interesting than the Lions...

Annoying touchy Kiwi's is just for fun.

I know your mischievous ways mate. But it doesn't hurt to remind other people.

I hope you are right about hooker. Hopefully Coles makes it (although he's spent most of the season injured). Given Franks has had injury issues lately our front row could be makeshift. I think the other big call will be right wing. I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Smith is Fullback/wing with Dagg.

Ben Franks can replace his brother. LH is more of a concern for me bc. With Jane out Ranger could be on the right wing and then give Conrad Smith a break and try him out there and Ben Smith can cover for Dagg or the wing. Savea is going to be interesting for me as his looming court case could well impact on his performance (both good or bad).

I sincerely hope TJ Perenara gets a run. Even if it's the second half and Smith the first half. The time has come for that kid to get some game time. Cruden may well start as well. I'd like to see Nonu outside Cruden if he does start to help him have someone big to run off him but also to show his team really needs him. We seriously lack other options that fill me with the same confidence as SBW. Which may well be a justification to look for another face for that very reason.

Plenty of new faces in this AB side. Hope Picamoles makes it as that line up with Read is a mouth watering prospect.