England U20 v New Zealand U20

by HammerofThunor Tue 18 Jun 2013, 7:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Game about to start. Just showing a highlight reel from 2011. Closest we've come to them before and it was a good team. Included:

Farell, Joseph, Kvesic, Launchbury, H Thomas, M Vunipola, Wade and Yarde. All with caps. Hopefully at least 5 will be in the EPS.

Anyway on to today. Can't bothered to write up teams as I'm on the iPad

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/june/news-articles/170613_eng_u20_team_nz

by markb Tue 18 Jun 2013, 10:02 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Griff wrote:Well done England, see you in the final. Looking forward to it! Should be a cracker.

time for a bit of revenge for them stopping our Under 20s GS

It was your infiltrating saboteur Moriarty that stopped ours!

http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/02/3009/seven-week-suspension-for-dangerous-tip-tackle-in-u20-six-nations

Decent enough win by England, but it has to be said that's probably the least impressive BB side I've seen at this level, I don't think the result would have been the same if we'd faced a side similar to those of years past. Mind you, our side isn't as good as it has been, better than last year's, but then that wasn't particularly difficult. Definitley a fair lack of skill and nous in the backline compared to 2011.

by DaveM Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:04 pm

The 2011 side was very good, as can be seen from the conversion rate to the senior side, and should have won the tournament that year, but this year's team is just a really effective outfit. The ability to defend well and to win the forward exchanges is really important, and they aren't bad ball in hand either. Years ago I remember seeing an All Black side rucking over the ball and realised I'd never seen an English side do the same. Now it's 10 or so years of the academy set up and I've never seen an England age group side as good as this one at the breakdown.

The BB's didn't look great, but England put them under serious pressure, probably more presure then any previous England u20 side could have generated. I think there are a fair few future internationals there again, and I'm sure they will all have an AP career. It was noteworthy that Sean Fitzpatrick said LCD is the best hooker he's seen at age-group level for years.

by lostinwales Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:11 pm

Someone was talking about the history of the JWC. I was just checking yes we had a very good team back in the first one in Wales in 2008 - JTH Cato and Ellis come to mind - and we were hammered by the BB in the final 38-3 (wiki is wonderful) It is worth noting that that was the third game in a week and we had beaten Aus and SA in the previous two so there were some reasons for the level of the defeat.

That and the tactics of kicking and very offensive defense - which depended on forcing and capitalising on opposition errors. - It was simple - the BB's just didnt make any errors..

by blackcanelion Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:02 am

Well done England.

by Hood83 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:15 am

DaveM - You're absolutely spot on re our rucking. A few years back when we had players like Callum Clark and Lawes, and far more 'superstar' players with some huge ball carriers and speedster backs. But they played as individuals and got humped. This team's counter-rucking against the BBs was the best I've seen from an England age grade team. Admittedly this is the weakest team I think the BBs have put out, but all players contributed well at ruck time with brilliant body positioning and rucked in bunches, not isolation.

Nothing flash, no superstars, but touch-wood some signs of some decent coaching at this level that should stand them in good stead. The standard of coaching in this country is light-years behind that in NZ, but maybe this is a few green shoots showing. Fingers crossed.

by Hood83 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:16 am

Also, this is not meant to sound condescending, but as usual, AB supporters classy in their congratulations.

by Hood83 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:18 am

Dave - Would disagree re LCD - His throwing is appalling, or at least extremely inconsistent. If it improves, great, he's certainly very abrasive and aggressive and has a huge work rate. Could be a gem.

by Hood83 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:58 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Hood83 wrote:Auckland - classy response, classier than my whingeing about the ref. Nice one.

In fairness Hoody, both teams will be scratching their heads with some of those ref calls, he was equally confusing to both sides.

He missed some really obvious forward passes from us. And I'm not sure which gate he was actually talking about

-------------
Auckland I think you;re right, I tried to make that point at one stage during the game. Hammer - YES! Exactly, had no idea what he was talking about but the 'gate' seemed to grow and shrink by about 6 feet during he game.

by Poorfour Wed 19 Jun 2013, 11:28 am

I didn't see the game, but the "gate" does grow and shrink during the game, because it's determined by the body position of the tackled player. One of Wilkinson's great strengths is that he nearly always manages to align himself with his head pointing to his own goal line, meaning that the gate is a foot wide and the ball is a long way from the opposing players. Get tackled facing across the pitch, and the gate is 6 foot wide and the ball is much more easily within reach.

by Cumbrian Wed 19 Jun 2013, 12:41 pm

LCD's work around the pitch is superb. That includes rucking, carrying, offloading and running support lines. I understand that his lineout throwing wasn't up to scratch, but surely that's what this tournament is for? So players can develop their skills in a pressurised environment. I haven’t been sure about this experiment, be it a potential masterstroke or the criminal messing around of a very good prop, but I am really beginning to come round to the idea.

Get him back to the West Country and make him practice lineout throwing until his arms fall off! If he turns it around he could become an Exeter regular and an England senior quicker than many of us expect. Just think about where Mako and Lanuchbury were a couple of years ago.

Besides could you look at that performance and say it was any worse than Rory Best’s? And he is a Lion, don’t ye know?!? Very Happy

by Cumbrian Wed 19 Jun 2013, 12:43 pm

Just to continue that theme, if you had to pick three current England U20s players that you believe will go on to be full internationals, which three will it be?

by jelly Wed 19 Jun 2013, 12:45 pm

Very difficult to say but, based on what I've seen in this tournament only:

- LCD, looks like an all action hooker who will get massively involved around the pitch and just needs to sort out his throwing
- Clifford, made some great breaks and heavily involved, may need to move to 6 or 7 though
- Watson, a brute of a winger and just what England need.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 19 Jun 2013, 1:08 pm

Cumbrian wrote:LCD's work around the pitch is superb. That includes rucking, carrying, offloading and running support lines. I understand that his lineout throwing wasn't up to scratch, but surely that's what this tournament is for? So players can develop their skills in a pressurised environment. I haven’t been sure about this experiment, be it a potential masterstroke or the criminal messing around of a very good prop, but I am really beginning to come round to the idea.

Get him back to the West Country and make him practice lineout throwing until his arms fall off! If he turns it around he could become an Exeter regular and an England senior quicker than many of us expect. Just think about where Mako and Lanuchbury were a couple of years ago.

Besides could you look at that performance and say it was any worse than Neil Best’s? And he is a Lion, don’t ye know?!?

Or his brother Rory, even?!

by Cumbrian Wed 19 Jun 2013, 1:10 pm

What are you on about? :P

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 19 Jun 2013, 1:13 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Just to continue that theme, if you had to pick three current England U20s players that you believe will go on to be full internationals, which three will it be?

Slade, Nowell, LC-D, Hill and Conlon - who said I can't count!

Chief

by Hood83 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 1:16 pm

Good points Cumbrian - I think given the talent ahead of him at LH it's worth trying to turn LCD into a hooker. Just a shame that it isn't a little easier - for every T Youngs there must be a dozen T Lindsay's struggling to crack it.

Don't want to sound pessimistic, but I don't see any of these players playing international rugby regularly. If Clifford is moved to 7 I could see him being very handy there. An all-action abrasive 7 but too small for 8. If LCD's throwing improves then yes, but it's a big if. I'm not that confident. Watson's game isn't rounded enough, may improve. Th rest I think are good Prem or fringe players only.

by HammerofThunor Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:57 pm

I wounder how many who end up at hooker start at hooker

by aitchw Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:12 pm

Genuinely think as many as half that squad could make Saxons within a 2 or 3 years but it's down to the clubs to develop them.

Overall they deserved the win and being gifted 2 tries doesn't detract, you have to be in the right place and take the chance. You could argue tries only happen when the opposition makes a mistake anyway.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:13 pm

Hood83 wrote:Good points Cumbrian - I think given the talent ahead of him at LH it's worth trying to turn LCD into a hooker. Just a shame that it isn't a little easier - for every T Youngs there must be a dozen T Lindsay's struggling to crack it.

Don't want to sound pessimistic, but I don't see any of these players playing international rugby regularly. If Clifford is moved to 7 I could see him being very handy there. An all-action abrasive 7 but too small for 8. If LCD's throwing improves then yes, but it's a big if. I'm not that confident. Watson's game isn't rounded enough, may improve. Th rest I think are good Prem or fringe players only.

Looking at the players who have made improvements from being in no age group squads to being INTs, I don't think we can really say who will make it either way

by Bathman_in_London Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:19 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Just to continue that theme, if you had to pick three current England U20s players that you believe will go on to be full internationals, which three will it be?

I suppose it depends which ones of them have Scottish ancestory?!

Or being serious... Slade, Sisi and Watson.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:20 pm

It's a bit of a lottery tbh, when you look back over previous U20 sides a decedent percentage have stepped up(more recently I'd suggest).

But for every Launchbury there's an Alex Gray.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:25 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Just to continue that theme, if you had to pick three current England U20s players that you believe will go on to be full internationals, which three will it be?

I suppose it depends which ones of them have Scottish ancestory?!

Or being serious... Slade, Sisi and Watson.

In the bag! Oh, and Wilson too

Braveheart

by Effervescing Elephant Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:18 pm

The Italians have a claim on Sisi too. POACH FIIIIIIGHT!!!

by Effervescing Elephant Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:21 pm

Hey ASBO, Chiefs have just tweeted that they are announcing a new signing tomorrow, any idea who?

by bluestonevedder Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:26 pm

I saw the last 60 minutes of this game last night, and it was excellent. England showed some fabulous class to beat this BB team.

One thing that caught my attention as well as their rucking was their carrying. England's pack all carried very strongly. I thought Slade were superb around the pitch, and what struck me most about his play was his defence! Not just his tackling, but his counter-rucking. There was a moment when a England player stormed through the middle of a ruck and grabbed the NZ scrum half. The SH got the ball away superbly under pressure, but the England lad followed through with the tackle, drove him back, and tossed him to the floor. There was nothing illegal about it, but it was pure physcial aggression. I noticed it was our FH and I was literally gob-smacked. Superb stuff.

Standout players for me were:

-Jack Nowell- the lad just doesn't know when he's tackled, and keeps motoring. Excellent.
-LCD- throwing was suspect at times, but he more than made up for it with all his other work around the pitch. He draws in defenders like a seasoned pro.
-Clifford- great lines, nice hands, and good in defence. Another promising Quins player.
-Moriarty- carried like a beast all day long. Smashing the line and constantly looking too take out defenders.

Well done England. Superb performance.

Here's to an entertaining final! Fingers Crossed

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:42 pm

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Hey ASBO, Chiefs have just tweeted that they are announcing a new signing tomorrow, any idea who?

Don Armand from the Stormers is the rumour, adding depth to 4/6, Muldowney replacement

Chief

by Effervescing Elephant Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:55 pm

Thanks mate!

by Shifty Wed 19 Jun 2013, 7:05 pm

Game for download:

1st half
http://www.putlocker.com/file/4738EFE62F8C7662

2nd half
http://www.putlocker.com/file/298612CE93BE3007

click on continue as free user, on the next page click on the floppy disk at the button right of the screen and save the file.

When you download it, use a free program like 7zip to open it.
http://www.filehippo.com/search?q=7zip
Right click the downloaded file and click open, then drag the file onto your desktop.

If you'd like to make a dvd of this game for posterity, then download "DVD video soft free studio".

http://www.dvdvideosoft.com/products/dvd/Free-Video-to-DVD-Converter.htm

Just open the file and drag the file you downloaded into the box, then put your dvd in, simples!

by DaveM Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:55 pm

In terms of who might make it, I still think a lot of them are contenders. I'm not sure I can see a standout prop (other than maybe the Saints LH), but there is always Sinkler! The locks are skillful and strong, I'm quite impressed with the centres, I think Day has looked good and I've got a lot of time for Slade. Then the backrow have been excellent.

Watson has the talent to progress, but I'd go with:

- Nowell (fantastic all-round game, quick, good physical presence, always makes yards and a really intelligent player)
- LCD (huge influence on games and loads of time to improve his throwing)
- Hill (excelent defence, but pretty good at everything - potentially an upgraded Brad Barritt)

And my next three (from this year's squad) would be

- Sinkler (looks the part)
- Slade (like Hill just a well rounded game)
- Watson (obviously gifted, but disappointing in the tournament to date)

by DaveM Wed 19 Jun 2013, 9:06 pm

Interesting to look at last year's squad (I think Kvesic may have droped out injured, which flopped:

Forwards
Dom Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
Koree Britton (Gloucester Rugby)*
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Max Crumpton (Saracens)
Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)*
George Merrick (Harlequins)
Nathan Morris (London Wasps)
Ben Nutley (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
David Sisi (London Irish)
Sam Twomey (Harlequins)*
Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie)
Backs
Will Addison (Sale Sharks)
Josh Bassett (Bedford Blues)
Tommy Bell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Elliott (Northampton Saints)
Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby)*
Ben Ransom (Saracens)*
Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)*
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)*

You can put together a decent bacine from that lot. There was definitely an attitude problem with the squad though, and some strange selections.

by Taylorman Wed 19 Jun 2013, 9:51 pm

nathan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:all over...cant win from there. well done England...would have been a robbery if we'd won this. We turned up for 10 minutes in the second half. The rest was like watching our guys knee deep in mud they were so lacklustre. England too good...

can i save this quote and make out you said it about the main england/nz team? lol

Said pretty much the same straight after the main win last year...Overall England rugby still looks pretty strong and with two NH sides in the final (when has that ever happened? Junior or main?) so is NH potential...

by Shifty Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:15 pm

Taylorman wrote:Said pretty much the same straight after the main win last year...Overall England rugby still looks pretty strong and with two NH sides in the final (when has that ever happened? Junior or main?) so is NH potential...

Wales reasons for improvement are obvious, after the 92-0 loss two years ago, Wales decided to sent their best players. They had a policy of not sending anyone breaking through to regional rugby, or picked teams 1-2 years younger than needed. As a result we struggled.

Now were sending players who are 20 years old instead of 18-19, in a lot of cases. In fact if you look at this current Welsh squad, that was supposed to go to the World Cup (including Patchell and Robinson who were withdrawn):

Ieuan Jones (16 games for Dragons this year)
Rhodri Williams (19 games for Scarlets this year)
Ryhs Patchell (22 games for Blues this year)
Sam Davies (3 games for Ospreys this year)
Cory Allen (1 game this year for Blues, 4 in total)
Jack Dixon (18 games for Dragons this year)
Hallam Amos (14 games for Dragons this year)
Jordan Williams (5 games for Scarlets this year)
Dan Thomas (4 games for the Scarlets this season)
Harry Robinson (22 games for the Blues this year)
Jack Jones (a couple of games for Rovigo in the Amlin Cup)

Quite a few of them are taking their first steps into professional rugby and establishing themselves. 2 years ago few if any of the squad would of played regional rugby.

by Taylorman Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:32 pm

Probably explains why we've dominated earlier if other sides were doing the same.

NZ had 5 superxv players and 12 had played ITM last year- our regional equivalent so our standard was similar and no excuses for us this year.

The NH have the advantage of the 6N series which we dont have- this is the only time these players group, and they only ever go the once I believe...

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