Saracens thread - 2013/14

[beshocked]

All posters are welcome. As pretty much the only Saracens fan on here (bar the odd cameo appearance from Knackeredknees), comments from others would be appreciated.


Senior squad

Loosehead props: Vunipola,Gill,Barrington,Saunders
Hookers:Brits,George
Tight Head props:Johnston,Stevens,Du Plessis
2nd row: Borthwick,Hargreaves,Kruis,Botha,Sheriff
Flankers:Brown,Fraser,Burger,Wray,Fenton Wells,Melck
No 8s:Joubert,Vunipola

Scrum halves: De Kock, Wigglesworth,Spencer,Baldwin
Fly halves: Farrell,Hodgson,Mordt
Centres:Barrit,Tomkins,Streather,Taylor
Wingers:Ashton,Strettle,Short,Wilson,Tagicakibau
Full Back:Goode,Wyles,Ransom


Rumours:

Marcelo Bosch and Jacques Potgieter expected to sign. Probably Bosch after the rugby championship and Potgieter after his stint in Japan.





HC Pool: Toulouse,Saracens,Connacht,Zebre




Saracens Lions watch: Relieved to see Farrell his playing well now. Hoping Vunipola will start for the Lions - going from 3rd choice to 5th choice wouldn't please him at all! Stevens is there for the mid week matches.

Next competition: JP Morgan Sevens - I expect a strong squad. Probably going to throw in some Sevens specialists like Wyles and Wilson into the mix.

[HongKongCherry]

You should have added a caveat that no one can mention South Africa or the salary cap!

I really thought last season was going to be your year, but your new signings will definitely make you the team to beat. Sarries and Tigers have to be firm favourites for the final. The signings of JJ and Vunipola will give you an added dimension and with that strength in depth you really should be challenging in Europe too.

Out of interest, do you know who is meant to be your marquee player? I've not really understood why this has to remain secret for all clubs.

[Geordie]

Well ill be watching the following closely..

Fraser, Tomkins and Kruis - three youngsters who have impressed me hugely
The Vunipola brothers for obvious reasons.
Jaime George....can he get fit, playing regular and finally realise some of his potential.
Young Ransom...he could seriously challenge Goodes position this season...looks a crackin player...

[Bathite]

Only two senior hookers looks like a bit of a gamble, is Spurling still in the academy? Maybe George will get some game time and/or get fit

Bosch will be a great signing if/when it happens

[beshocked]

HKC not sure who the marquee player is. Mention South Africa and salary cap if you want. Can't avoid it.

It's interesting isn't it: Saracens were doing really well - top of the league, HC semi final. In just two home losses the season was over. Funny how quickly things can turn sour - the same happened to Clermont.

I wonder about Johnston. Thoughts from Quins fans would be appreciated.


Geordiefalcon agree with your players to watch.

Jamie George will have a big opportunity this season with Brits as things stand missing the 1st 3 games of the season.

[Geordie]

I think its harsh to mention the South African thing these days...

Most of the starting 1st team are English or English qualified! In fact i think Sarries should be applauded for the work they are doing for the England national team

Beshocked...i appreciate Goode is a main player for you guys...but how impressed have you been with Ransom. Do you think he could get quite a bit of gametime this season?

[beshocked]

Geordiefalcon I feel Sarries backs in particular need to offer a bit more to stay in England contention.

Farrell needs to keep improving his all round game.

Ashton must improve his form by quite a bit.

Barritt needs to become more of a creator in my opinion.

Strettle and Wigglesworth unfortunately I think will struggle.


Sarries forwards a lot more positive if they keep making progress.




I wouldn't say Goode is one of the more important players actually anymore.

Ahead of him would be in my opinion in terms of importance:

Borthwick,Barritt,Vunipola,Fraser,Brown,Tomkins,Farrell/Hodgson,Brits (when on form), Joubert (when in form),Hargreaves.

Unfortunately for Goode, Wyles is actually a pretty good deputy. I think Ransom will struggle for game time unless one of Wyles or Goode picks up a long term injury. He seems to have excellent potential but the Saracens management don't like taking risks.

Wyles is one of those unsung Sarries players who can cover outside centre,wing and full back.

[Geordie]

Heres a big one for you...

Andy Saull has been quite critical of Sarries "regimental" tactics and training. Saying that whilst it highly effective and makes them very hard to beat...it takes out the individualism and heads up /risk rugby. Is that something you would agree with?

I agree i think Barritt and Farrell need to show much more now. Farrell has time he's only young..but Baritt has some competition now. His defence is tremendous...but a 12 needs more than just that, and Eastmond and 36 will be challenging for that spot.

I have faith that Ashtons form will return, but now he too must be aware he has some cracking players challenging him for those wing spots...

[beshocked]

I wouldn't disagree with Saull. Saracens do need to be a bit more fluid, a bit more adaptable. Having a strong structure/foundation is important but a Plan B and C is important. A good balance is important. If something goes wrong there needs to be a contingency plan.

I want Saracens to be more like Clermont,Leicester and Leinster. That means more tries and being more brutally ruthless.

I am not sure about Ashton. I think like Farrell and Barritt he needs to show more to his game.

[yappysnap]

Sarries look scary good on paper

As to Johnston, as long as you have a good technical scrum coach you'll be fine. In my opinion he's the best in his position by a long distance and as long as he binds he's nearly impossible to stop.

Of course the new scrum rules could change all of that.


Of course the

[yappysnap]

Yesterdays game showed just how good Farrel can become with s little less structure. Watching the quality of his play I can't believe that the Sarries coaching team won't want him to play like that more often.

Barrett as well has shown that when he is given more freedom he can play s lot more.

[HongKongCherry]

Sarries look scary good on paper

As to Johnston, as long as you have a good technical scrum coach you'll be fine. In my opinion he's the best in his position by a long distance and as long as he binds he's nearly impossible to stop.

Of course the new scrum rules could change all of that.


Of course the

I wonder if COS will be touted a genius when the new laws turn PDJ into a top class TH?? Stranger things have happened!

JJ will certainly provide that rock at TH that I feel Sarries have missed recently. I'm a huge fan of Nieto, but his retirement came at the right time. He could do a job last season, but he wasn't going to be a regular starter. Full credit to Stevens for him finding some of his form of old, but for me he has never been a top class scrummager, which if any team wants to challenge for the top honours they need at TH.

[Geordie]

Didnt see the game yesterday...was Farrell genuinely good?

[ChequeredJersey]

HKC not sure who the marquee player is. Mention South Africa and salary cap if you want. Can't avoid it.

It's interesting isn't it: Saracens were doing really well - top of the league, HC semi final. In just two home losses the season was over. Funny how quickly things can turn sour - the same happened to Clermont.

I wonder about Johnston. Thoughts from Quins fans would be appreciated.


Geordiefalcon agree with your players to watch.

Jamie George will have a big opportunity this season with Brits as things stand missing the 1st 3 games of the season.

Johnston is a really good prop and started the season with us well enough. He didn't play so well later on. Many Quins fans have (rather unfairly in my eyes) suggested that he couldn't be bothered to try any more when he knew he was coming to Saracens. Looking closer at this it appears to be utterly untrue, he was still trying hard but something wasn't going right. It might have been effected by Marler's lack of confidence or the general tiredness of the whole team and pack. He also clearly wasn't 100% happy at Quins for whatever reason, and I suspect he was getting a lot of stick from "supporters" (not from the players though rumour has it that Easter had a bit of a go at him) for going to Sarries, and as it apparently wasn't money he switched for it implies something wasn't working for him at Quins. If that was the case, then he should be back to his formidable best at Sarries, which I think his brother convinced him was a good move, where he will be in a stronger pack making his job easier and where he is clearly happier to continue playing. I think he'll do well for you

[ChequeredJersey]

Didnt see the game yesterday...was Farrell genuinely good?

Yes

[yappysnap]

Didnt see the game yesterday...was Farrell genuinely good?

Yes

Without being OTT it was everything you'd hope for if you mixed Burns attack with Farrells defence.

To add a bit more detail, he actually tapped and went from a pen twice! One of which was within about 40m's of the post. I thought that I was hallucinating when I saw it.

[beshocked]

Bathite yes spurling is still in the academy. I haven't included him because he's not been put down as being part of the senior squad. I heard rumours from saracens rugby network that Saunders might be converted to hooker. Personally I think that's a little strange seeing as we also have Max Crumpton.

Agree about Bosch.

Yappysnap we don't have a specific scrum coach. Gustard and Sanderson are meant to look after the scrummaging but I am not convinced of them in that area.

What are the new scrum rules?

Thanks for your thoughts on Johnston as Quins fans (Chequeredjersey and yappysnap)

I didn't know he was still that highly rated by Quins. I know he's a good player but I always thought his binding/scrummaging was a bit suspect.

I feel a bit bad pinching him off you. I am surprised by the revelation that the move wasn't for money. Apparently every move to Saracens must be for money.

Quins can perhaps work magic on PDJ.

I don't think Quins fans were upset as Wasps fans were at the loss of Billy.


HKC I agree with that. A top class TH is important.

Got to say I am looking forward to seeing Johnston and both Vunipola bros in the same pack.

[HongKongCherry]

Bathite yes spurling is still in the academy. I haven't included him because he's not been put down as being part of the senior squad. I heard rumours from saracens rugby network that Saunders might be converted to hooker. Personally I think that's a little strange seeing as we also have Max Crumpton.

Agree about Bosch.

Yappysnap we don't have a specific scrum coach. Gustard and Sanderson are meant to look after the scrummaging but I am not convinced of them in that area.

What are the new scrum rules?

Thanks for your thoughts on Johnston as Quins fans (Chequeredjersey and yappysnap)

I didn't know he was still that highly rated by Quins. I know he's a good player but I always thought his binding/scrummaging was a bit suspect.

I feel a bit bad pinching him off you. I am surprised by the revelation that the move wasn't for money. Apparently every move to Saracens must be for money.

Quins can perhaps work magic on PDJ.

I don't think Quins fans were upset as Wasps fans were at the loss of Billy.


HKC I agree with that. A top class TH is important.

Got to say I am looking forward to seeing Johnston and both Vunipola bros in the same pack.

I'm not!!! You talked about your backs needing to do more, but with that pack who needs backs!!

[Bathman_in_London]

I'd be interested to know if he had been told to go out and play that way or whether he decided was really trying to ensure he gets some game time on saturday, given Sextons mixed performance.

Certainly if he played like that for Sarries he wouldnt get anywhere as much abuse from posters/pundits.


Sarries will certainly be in the mix come the semi finals next season. Your squad is certainly stronger in some areas that in previous seasons and I'm looking forward to seeing the youngsters taking on more responsibility and maybe forcing their way into the international frame, namely George, Kruis, Fraser and Ransom (maybe still a season or so off for him).

[ChequeredJersey]

New scrum rules are that there will be no hit, the scrum will be bound statically then the push starts when the ball goes in apparently

[beshocked]

Will hookers actually be required to hook the ball?

bathman in london I didn't watch it but sounds like Farrell is capable of using his backline more effectively. We saw this vs Scotland in the 6 nations too.

The problem Farrell has had at Saracens is that he's generally been given the tougher matches. Hodgson has been given the easier ones. Both have had different roles. Hodgson's job has been basically to get try bonuses (entertain the crowd), Farrell's job has been to win matches.

Farrell hasn't really had the opportunity to work on his distribution,attacking game etc against weaker opposition for Saracens because Hodgson is generally given those matches.

Hodgson is unsurprisingly given these games because of his better attacking talents and the need for try bonuses is important.

[Geordie]

Didnt see the game yesterday...was Farrell genuinely good?

Yes

Without being OTT it was everything you'd hope for if you mixed Burns attack with Farrells defence.

To add a bit more detail, he actually tapped and went from a pen twice! One of which was within about 40m's of the post. I thought that I was hallucinating when I saw it.

Wow really?? Well i told everyone the boy could play!

Seriously though...thats good to see. He's had a lot of criticism from these boards, myself included. Maybe being with the Lions is encouraging him to play a more heads up rugby...lets hope returning to the regimented Sarries camp will not put him back in his cocoon!

[ChequeredJersey]

Will hookers actually be required to hook the ball?

Presumably, though I think that's a contentious issue

[ChequeredJersey]

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/may/news-articles/170513_new_scrum_laws_trial

This is all I know about it

[HongKongCherry]

New scrum rules are that there will be no hit, the scrum will be bound statically then the push starts when the ball goes in apparently

My understanding is that the front rows will remain in contact, but will be at arms distance. There will be a hit of sorts, but far, far less than before as the distance will not be sufficient to generate the power of the previous hit. So powerful scrummagers will be able to be useful, but who wins will be less about who wins the hit. It'll be interesting to see how strict the refs are with the feeding straight rule. I'm not sure the l;aw changes have gone quite far enough, but it is a very welcome step in the right direction.

[beshocked]

Thanks chequeredjersey.

Geordiefalcon I hope so too!

Would love Sarries to win the last HC with Farrell kicking the winning points.

Owen Farrell to win the RWC 2015 for England too.

Oops getting a bit carried away there!

[LondonTiger]

Owen has ability. He will never be a dazzling runner of the ball, and will probably always lag behind the likes of Freddie burns in the "fancy dan" stuff. What he is showing is an ability to learn and the beginnings of a player who could be a good puppet master. If he can continue to make the odd half break here or there, then opposition defences will be unable to just drift past him. Add in ever improving kicking and passing game and he could be a very good fit for the developing England team. Power up front, speed out wide, strike runners in the centre and full back. With all that going on someone who can consistently do the right thing will bring better rewards than someone with moments of genius.

I look at that set of forwards Sarries have pulled together and they look powerful, and adaptable. they look capable of driving Saracens forward and matching any pack in europe.

I look at the backs though and I see a lot of stodge. Wigglesworth and de Kock are unlikely to be able to clear the ball with the speed needed to allow Farrell to play as flat as he did yesterday. I doubt even the most ardent of Saracen's fans would then claim that their outside backs are packed with flair.

So in summary Sarries look strong and dynamic up front, but heavy footed and stodgy at the back. Owen Farrell who could develop into the most effective English 10 I have seen may struggle to make the required progress within that environment.

[funnyExiledScot]

For rather obvious reasons I'm very interested in seeing Brown continue his excellent form for Sarries over the years and get back to full fitness for the AIs, and I'm hoping that young Duncan Taylor can get more action in the centres this season - looks a decent athlete but I want to see what his distribution skills and offloading game are made of.

More generally it's a very strong and cohesive squad. Very interested to see if Billy Vunipola can fit well within the Sarries systems.

[George Carlin]

Beshocked - do you have any visibility about how Kelly's ankle injury is shaping up? All I know is that he twisted ligaments against Samoa, he had an operation a week ago and his Tweety feed suggests he's moving on to pre-season training now.

[formerly known as Sam]

How long before Burger is back for you guys? He was awesome before his injury but he's been out for a long time, be interesting to see how he plays when he returns.

[Knackeredknees]

Hi shocked
The odd cameo may become a bit more full time this season fighting our corner!

Just hope we can kick on and continue to play the attacking game we do(how do people think we win penalties in the opposition half?). Looking forward to our first all EQ starting 15 quieting a few posters up, especially as its close to our strongest side!

Hoping Tompkins and Fraser continue where they left last season

[LondonTiger]

(how do people think we win penalties in the opposition half?).

Well it varies.

2009/10 it was mainly Jackson/Hougaard kick the ball, Ratevou chases and the opposition are penalised for holding on.
2010/11 it was mainly Farrell kicks, Barritt chases and the opp.......
2011/12 ditto
2012/13 ditto - or Hodgson plays and you score tries



Slightly less antagonistically - last season, at times Sarries played a high tempo, all court attacking game. Most noticeably against Edinburgh and the second half at Welford Road. As the season wore on though they withdrew into their shell and tried to win via the aggressive defence. My gut feel is that the backline does not contain enough flair outside of the 10 spot to change that approach this year.

[formerly known as Sam]

My feeling is that Hodgson is the only real spark of attacking flair in the backline. There's some very positive displays from Farrell down under but he must push that side of his game more when he returns. Streather is a very promising option and an OC with excellent hands.

[Knackeredknees]

Dunno Sam
Quick ball from spencer to a flatter Farrell miss pass to Tompkins with on offload to Ashton, cut inside to a rampaging billy or mako....try time

[formerly known as Sam]

Tomkins made a lot of offloads last season but didn't feature as a creative option from set moves. As he develops that should come alive as the coaches trust him with more responsibility. Farrell may be throwing flat passes next season but he stood far to deep and really slowed momentum last season. It's certainly very hard for the wingers to come off the shoulders of the midfield when It's all happening so deep.

[LondonTiger]

Tomkins made a lot of offloads last season but didn't feature as a creative option from set moves. As he develops that should come alive as the coaches trust him with more responsibility. Farrell may be throwing flat passes next season but he stood far to deep and really slowed momentum last season. It's certainly very hard for the wingers to come off the shoulders of the midfield when It's all happening so deep.

Hard not to stand deep when Wigglesworth and de Kock are at 9. Spencer may be a better fit, but he was not used last season and the year before his run in the team co-incided with Sarries using the periscope and box-kick, so there has been little evidence of his passing abilities.

I just wonder whether in the end Sarries got too caught up in the whole "wolfpack" thing forgot they have the ability to create as well as live off opponents mistakes. I wonder if anyone has worked out just how they lost so abjectly in two home semi finals? They were the best English team last season, but won nothing. that will hurt.

[beshocked]

Londontiger I like to think I know how Saracens lost those two home semi finals abjectively.

Certain aspects of Saracens game went to pieces. The normally very strong lineout was abject. In both games Borthwick did not run the lineout properly. The scrum was shaky (understandable because of the strength of Toulon and Saints in that area).

Fraser who had been so strong for Saracens throughout the season played in neither game. Hence the breakdown - normally a traditional Saracens strength was not. Saracens lost the physical battle to two powerful packs as well.


Farrell who was in poor form at the time was another who did not perform. Tomkins was another who despite playing well throughout most of the season did not have a good game either.

Lawes injuring Hodgson just like he did Flood also had an impact. I am not saying Lawes did anything illegal but he certainly targeted both fly halves with no mercy to great effect. No way am I saying Saracens lost because of the loss of Hodgson but it was just another thing which didn't go right on the day.

Saints wanted to win more. They showed a lot more intensity. Sense of purpose and were ferocious with their tackling. Sarries in comparison were lacklustre and didn't have an answer when certain things didn't go their way.

Against Saints no Barritt was a big loss defensively as well.

[LondonTiger]

Will Fraser to miss start of season:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23225494

How is Burger?

[Frankston]

Lawes injuring Hodgson just like he did Flood also had an impact.

Wasn't the Hodgson injury from Burrell running into him?

[beshocked]

Burger should be fit.

Frankston perhaps it was Lawes initially with Burrell finishing him off. I remember a particularly borderline challenge by Lawes on Hodgson which left him struggling. My point is that Lawes was key in the efforts to nobble the opposition fly half - both Hodgson and Flood Hitting hard with the tackles, flirting with legality.

It's not a new tactic to target certain players to try and rough them up. Pretty much every side does it. Sometimes it works. Sometime it doesn't.

[LondonTiger]

Charlie and Toby are a bit lanky and perhaps more susceptible to injury than some of the more robust 10s.


Borderline challenges will often cause issues as the player is not ready for the hit having concetrated on passing, kicking etc.

[yappysnap]

To be fair every 10 should expect that sort of treatment and indeed Farrell jr loves a borderline hit on his opposite number.

Shame about Fraser as he looked the business last season.

[logansrun38]

HKC not sure who the marquee player is. Mention South Africa and salary cap if you want. Can't avoid it.

It's interesting isn't it: Saracens were doing really well - top of the league, HC semi final. In just two home losses the season was over. Funny how quickly things can turn sour - the same happened to Clermont.

I wonder about Johnston. Thoughts from Quins fans would be appreciated.


Geordiefalcon agree with your players to watch.

Jamie George will have a big opportunity this season with Brits as things stand missing the 1st 3 games of the season.

Johnston is a really good prop and started the season with us well enough. He didn't play so well later on. Many Quins fans have (rather unfairly in my eyes) suggested that he couldn't be bothered to try any more when he knew he was coming to Saracens. Looking closer at this it appears to be utterly untrue, he was still trying hard but something wasn't going right. It might have been effected by Marler's lack of confidence or the general tiredness of the whole team and pack. He also clearly wasn't 100% happy at Quins for whatever reason, and I suspect he was getting a lot of stick from "supporters" (not from the players though rumour has it that Easter had a bit of a go at him) for going to Sarries, and as it apparently wasn't money he switched for it implies something wasn't working for him at Quins. If that was the case, then he should be back to his formidable best at Sarries, which I think his brother convinced him was a good move, where he will be in a stronger pack making his job easier and where he is clearly happier to continue playing. I think he'll do well for you

utter nonsense CJ.

[yappysnap]

HKC not sure who the marquee player is. Mention South Africa and salary cap if you want. Can't avoid it.

It's interesting isn't it: Saracens were doing really well - top of the league, HC semi final. In just two home losses the season was over. Funny how quickly things can turn sour - the same happened to Clermont.

I wonder about Johnston. Thoughts from Quins fans would be appreciated.


Geordiefalcon agree with your players to watch.

Jamie George will have a big opportunity this season with Brits as things stand missing the 1st 3 games of the season.

Johnston is a really good prop and started the season with us well enough. He didn't play so well later on. Many Quins fans have (rather unfairly in my eyes) suggested that he couldn't be bothered to try any more when he knew he was coming to Saracens. Looking closer at this it appears to be utterly untrue, he was still trying hard but something wasn't going right. It might have been effected by Marler's lack of confidence or the general tiredness of the whole team and pack. He also clearly wasn't 100% happy at Quins for whatever reason, and I suspect he was getting a lot of stick from "supporters" (not from the players though rumour has it that Easter had a bit of a go at him) for going to Sarries, and as it apparently wasn't money he switched for it implies something wasn't working for him at Quins. If that was the case, then he should be back to his formidable best at Sarries, which I think his brother convinced him was a good move, where he will be in a stronger pack making his job easier and where he is clearly happier to continue playing. I think he'll do well for you

utter nonsense CJ.

Why haven't you been banned yet? You literally add nothing to this site.

[logansrun38]

You mean I don't share your opinions? And you want to ban me. What a pathetic comment

[George Carlin]

Beshocked - do you have any visibility about how Kelly's ankle injury is shaping up? All I know is that he twisted ligaments against Samoa, he had an operation a week ago and his Tweety feed suggests he's moving on to pre-season training now.

Anyone?

[LondonTiger]

Clubs tend not to say much about fitness during pre-season unless it is clear that a player will be out for quite sometime.

The best thing for Scotland would probably be for a slight delay to Kelly's season, perhapsd start at Sarries in October and be fit and firing by november?

[beshocked]

Clubs tend not to say much about fitness during pre-season unless it is clear that a player will be out for quite sometime.

The best thing for Scotland every rival club in the AP would probably be for a slight delay to Kelly's season, perhapsd start at Sarries in October and be fit and firing by november?

George Carlin I don't know sorry.

[George Carlin]

Lots of blogosphere chat about James O'Connor being linked with Sarries:
http://www.espnscrum.com/australia/rugby/story/192023.html
 
Anyone know if there's anything to it?

[formerly known as Sam]

Hodgson out of contract next summer, move for JOC could coincide with that. Would allow O'Connor the chance to tour for the AIs, have a quick spin in Japan and then still have plenty of time to get ready for next season. I'd imagine that offer would be fairly lucrative.

Sarries must be right up and cuddling the cap now. The only way he'd be able to sign now would be as injury dispensation.

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