Most Overrated Player on the Tour?

First topic message reminder :

Its gotta be Jamie Heaslip

Yet only now has Gatland realised this

I would have taken him on the tour...but no way had him in a starting test squad

Rugger, a lock that neither calls the lineout nor imposes himself physically over his opposition in the enforcer role is to my mind a luxuary. He's a big boy that doesn't make enough impact. I know he is much loved North of the border for his work in the loose but personally I'm always more impressed by Hamilton when I see Scotland play. Big Jim does the grafting whilst Gray does the carrying and the big hits. When I see him start smashing rucks and getting stuck into the tight before running around pretending to be a backrow I'll change my opinion.

I find that a lot of Rabo watchers have a higher opinion of him than us AP fans.

Taffineastbourne wrote:Matt Stevens.He is worse than I thought he was.I thought he was poor but he has surpassed that.

Taff - You have to be rated in the first place to become overated - No one rated Stephens so he doesn't qualify. 

RubyGuby wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Matt Stevens.He is worse than I thought he was.I thought he was poor but he has surpassed that.

Taff - You have to be rated in the first place to become overated - No one rated Stephens so he doesn't qualify. 

Except a certain Mr Gatland of course  

Yet again know nothing numnuts slagging Lydiate. It was of course a complete coincidence that Warbs was able to boss the breakdown with Dan as his partner. The BR is a unit in which each player has his responsibilities. Dan and Sam work as a team and that's why it works. Also the morons who just reel off stats as a substitute for understanding the game just get on my jubblies. Lydiate is effective because his tackles create attacking opportunities and turnovers. He does this by hunting the opposition down before they reach the gain line. Passive tacklers may rack up the meaningless stats but they often concede the gain line in the process. This is why Dan when fit and playing well is a hugely effective player.

Whether SOB is a good enough 7 to take advantage of Lydiates expertise remains to be seen

Dan Lydiate.

Is he fit & playing well? Because he hasn't been that effective.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Dan Lydiate.

Is he fit & playing well? Because he hasn't been that effective.

What exactly are you watching, as I said quite clearly the work that Dan did enabled the Lions to dominate until the unit was disrupted, and the platform that enabled Warbs to secure turnover and slow Aussie ball and the reason Hooper is out this week. SOB is a strange choice at 7 for me, he is not the right kind of 7 to complement the rest of the BR as we saw last week when Aus took over when he came on. If you want his ball carrying then you play him blind and Tips open. I can accept that argument, and see its validity. What I will not accept (because it is not based in fact) is that Lydiate has not performed his role excellently. Some like their BS a flashy wing type player but not me. Rugby is a sport where the sum is greater than the individual parts. A backrow must have balance and not be a mishmash of good players playing out of position in a random configuration (askEnglish fans what happened at the Millenium  ). You pick a fetcher and Lydiate is the finest BS on the planet.

Shane Williams apparently sent a text to Mr Stubborn

"Dear Sir, its wee Shaney here. Just to let you know I believe I am head and shoulders above my Japanese colleagues"

Gatland
"Bloody Hell Sian if that's the case get cute ace over here I have got a little game for you son"

Shane
"Woooooo Hoooooo"

Croft selected in the squad as an out and out winger certainly has justified Gatlands faith in him. He instantly without hesitation replied to Mr G (when he applied for the role) when asked what qualities he could bring to the role as a Lions winger.

"Well I can do a Horace Gump, always out wide, chatting to North, Bowe or Cuthbert.... and you'll never find me in the ruck, maul and I tackle like a sissy"

Gatland shouts to Howley "Oi Butty I think we have found the missing link"

Fair dues as well Croft certainly hasn't disappointed in the role either......... fantastic qualities as a wideboy

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
“
Dan Lydiate.

Is he fit & playing well? Because he hasn't been that effective.
”

What exactly are you watching, as I said quite clearly the work that Dan did enabled the Lions to dominate until the unit was disrupted, and the platform that enabled Warbs to secure turnover and slow Aussie ball and the reason Hooper is out this week. SOB is a strange choice at 7 for me, he is not the right kind of 7 to complement the rest of the BR as we saw last week when Aus took over when he came on. If you want his ball carrying then you play him blind and Tips open. I can accept that argument, and see its validity. What I will not accept (because it is not based in fact) is that Lydiate has not performed his role excellently. Some like their BS a flashy wing type player but not me. Rugby is a sport where the sum is greater than the individual parts. A backrow must have balance and not be a mishmash of good players playing out of position in a random configuration (askEnglish fans what happened at the Millenium ). You pick a fetcher and Lydiate is the finest BS on the planet.


At last someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Well done Dragonbreath. For this post. Everyone raving saying Sam had his best game last week and it is no coincidence that he was playing along side Lydiate.

dragonbreath wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Dan Lydiate.

Is he fit & playing well? Because he hasn't been that effective.

What exactly are you watching, as I said quite clearly the work that Dan did enabled the Lions to dominate until the unit was disrupted, and the platform that enabled Warbs to secure turnover and slow Aussie ball and the reason Hooper is out this week. SOB is a strange choice at 7 for me, he is not the right kind of 7 to complement the rest of the BR  as we saw last week when Aus took over when he came on. If you want his ball carrying then you play him blind and Tips open. I can accept that argument, and see its validity. What I will not accept (because it is not based in fact) is that Lydiate has not performed his role excellently. Some like their BS a flashy wing type player but not me. Rugby is a sport where the sum is greater than the individual parts.  A backrow must have balance and not be a mishmash of good players playing out of position in a random configuration (askEnglish fans what happened at the Millenium  ). You pick a fetcher and Lydiate is the finest BS on the planet.

You make some reasonable points then spoil it completely by the nonsense sentence at the end. I agree with England's back row against Wales btw. If Morgan & Corbs weren't injured I have no doubt it would have been a different story.
Lydiate tackles hard yes but other BSs do that and more eg. Dusatoir.
A balanced back row would would be Croft,SOB & Faletau. To drop Croft out of the whole squad is very shortsighted & takes away a lot of attacking possibilities.
But throughout this last squad Gats has gone for brawn over skill & I think it's a shame.

dragonbreath wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Dan Lydiate.

Is he fit & playing well? Because he hasn't been that effective.

What exactly are you watching, as I said quite clearly the work that Dan did enabled the Lions to dominate until the unit was disrupted, and the platform that enabled Warbs to secure turnover and slow Aussie ball and the reason Hooper is out this week. SOB is a strange choice at 7 for me, he is not the right kind of 7 to complement the rest of the BR  as we saw last week when Aus took over when he came on. If you want his ball carrying then you play him blind and Tips open. I can accept that argument, and see its validity. What I will not accept (because it is not based in fact) is that Lydiate has not performed his role excellently. Some like their BS a flashy wing type player but not me. Rugby is a sport where the sum is greater than the individual parts.  A backrow must have balance and not be a mishmash of good players playing out of position in a random configuration (askEnglish fans what happened at the Millenium  ). You pick a fetcher and Lydiate is the finest BS on the planet.

When did the lions dominate last week?

SecretFly wrote:
England: Stevens.  Some said he'd be absolute shhit and he proved pretty okay so he was overrated in the beginning.

Wouldn't that make him underrated in the beginning?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Dan Lydiate.

Is he fit & playing well? Because he hasn't been that effective.

What exactly are you watching, as I said quite clearly the work that Dan did enabled the Lions to dominate until the unit was disrupted, and the platform that enabled Warbs to secure turnover and slow Aussie ball and the reason Hooper is out this week. SOB is a strange choice at 7 for me, he is not the right kind of 7 to complement the rest of the BR  as we saw last week when Aus took over when he came on. If you want his ball carrying then you play him blind and Tips open. I can accept that argument, and see its validity. What I will not accept (because it is not based in fact) is that Lydiate has not performed his role excellently. Some like their BS a flashy wing type player but not me. Rugby is a sport where the sum is greater than the individual parts.  A backrow must have balance and not be a mishmash of good players playing out of position in a random configuration (askEnglish fans what happened at the Millenium  ). You pick a fetcher and Lydiate is the finest BS on the planet.

You make some reasonable points then spoil it completely by the nonsense sentence at the end. I agree with England's back row against Wales btw. If Morgan & Corbs weren't injured I have no doubt it would have been a different story.
Lydiate tackles hard yes but other BSs do that and more eg. Dusatoir.
A balanced back row would would be Croft,SOB & Faletau. To drop Croft out of the whole squad is very shortsighted & takes away a lot of attacking possibilities.
But throughout this last squad Gats has gone for brawn over skill & I think it's a shame.

If you saw 6Ns 2012 Wales v France 2012, and a fit and form Dusatoir V a fit and form Lydiate and the result of how he was nullified, you would know the importance of Dan

I'll say it again just for you.................

Effectiveness and Efficiency Lydiate has proven on this tour in more than just "tackling" he has been the obvious choice.

Tackles - well lets not state the gulf in volume between the two, but its what happens after the tackle that's being the concern. A fresh Croft coming on for Warburton should shored up the lions defences unfortunately it didn't 5 tackles all not stopping the momentum of the Aussies who easily redistributed, and if you look at Crofts efforts building up to the try when one Aussie went throw him like a proverbial hot knife through butter, then for me that sealed his fate.

Lineout - Croft is the better option, but he has lost some crucial ones (albeit you can argue the throws were dire) notably the most important one in the 2nd test. Lydiate when he has rec'd the ball has not lost one and had won two against the head.

Awareness - Lydiate was made captain of the mid-week game, had a superb game certainly SOB best game of the tour was because Dans hard work in the "dirty" area gave him the freedom to operate more in the loose. Add to that Lydiates play and wonderful backhanded offload in such a tight angle and with 3 guys all over him to set up SOBs try was a masterclass in being aware whats going on around the park. On the other hand Croft often it seems has being been on the wide open spaces when he should have been doing the dirty work.

You cant afford a mobile wing forward if he cannae perform the basics at the highest level

dragonbreath such arrogance. You say that the Lions dominated the breakdown. If the Lions dominated this area then why did they struggle to give their own backs any decent/quick ball?

Dominating the breakdown should equal quick ball surely? Securing your own ball, making sure it is nice and clean. Focussing solely on containing the Aussies attack was perhaps another oversight.

Turnovers shows that a lot of Aussie ball was pilfered but when the Lions had the ball they did not do much with it.

This nullified any advantage that the Lions made by making turnovers. Turnovers become an irrelevance if you don't make the most of them.

Low possession stats point to poor ball retention. Very few metres made point to a poor effort by the whole side in attack including the backrow. No one in the backrow put their hand up.

The backrow competed well on Aussie ball but did very little with Lions ball.

Lydiate is praised because he makes a lot of tackles but he does very little else. He is no ball carrier.
Against mid week opposition sure he managed to have some success with the ball in hand but so did everyone surely?


Lydiate is a negative player who only tackles his game is based on containment. Other backrowers like Brown and Robshaw are more well rounded players.

flyfactory it's not 2012.

What you fans of Lydiate forget is that he shouldn't be touring. He did not deserve to be picked for the Lions squad - two better backrowers than the overrated Lydiate were left behind.

Both Robshaw and Brown showed better form,versatility and are more well rounded than Lydiate. You know they can actually do more than just tackle. They are also leaders.


Stevens is not overrated because he is not rated by most. Lydiate is overrated because his name is shouted from the rooftops. Lydiate is seen as a deity in Wales.

dragonbreath wrote:Whether SOB is a good enough 7 to take advantage of Lydiates expertise remains to be seen

Disclaimer alert!

SOB is a decent ball carrier. Actually versatile - he can cover more than one position.

Lydiate's supposed expertise is tackling. Something most 6s can do as well as Lydiate.

flyhalffactory wrote:
Lineout - Croft is the better option, but he has lost some crucial ones (albeit you can argue the throws were dire) notably the most important one in the 2nd test. Lydiate when he has rec'd the ball has not lost one and had won two against the head.

False - that was Parling.

Phillips - not sure how he comes back into the test side

Oh yes, he can be special and turn a match - even if he had one of the worst performances I have ever seen from a scrum half in the first test

beshocked wrote:Jelly I don't know how you can call Vunipola overrated at all. He has done exactly what people have said he would be - be strong in the loose but find it tough in the scrum.

Sam as you obviously think Farrell is overrated (despite him getting a routine bashing by every man and his dog) who do you think the top 5 British and Irish fly halves are?

Taffineastbourne well he shouldn't be touring.

If I was going to do it by countries.

Ireland - Bowe - looked off the pace on Saturday. Got on tour based on reputation not form.
England - Croft - for all his supposed skills just hasn't lived up to the hype. Was meant to be a real strong performer but hasn't delivered.
Scotland - None are rated by Gatland.
Wales- Lydiate - Like Bowe got on tour due to supposed reputation. Not form. An one dimensional tackle machine praised to the rafters for doing what pretty much any backrower could do - tackle. Still outperformed in this area by a maligned centre, a maligned prop and a maligned 2nd row.

Not sure how you came to your conclusion on Bowe when he probably never touched the ball. The Lions have the best player of the series North and a real threat in Bowe on the wings and neither will be involved.

I think the most over rated man has been Warren G. His tactics have been apauling. Lions are so predictable and thats down to the managment. Has he been taking advice from Kidney?

thomh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:
Lineout - Croft is the better option, but he has lost some crucial ones (albeit you can argue the throws were dire) notably the most important one in the 2nd test. Lydiate when he has rec'd the ball has not lost one and had won two against the head.

False - that was Parling.

How are we blaming the jumpers for what was in effect a poor throw from the hooker? I see Lydiate has his support on here but in my opinion he offers too little in attack to be the best BS in the NH let alone the world. Ferris has been the biggest miss of the tour for me.

 Parling without a doubt - he is the only passsenger this weekend and it might be costly

dragonbreath wrote:Yet again know nothing numnuts slagging Lydiate. It was of course a complete coincidence that Warbs was able to boss the breakdown with Dan as his partner. The BR is a unit in which each player has his responsibilities. Dan and Sam work as a team and that's why it works. Also the morons who just reel off stats as a substitute for understanding the game just get on my jubblies. Lydiate is effective because his tackles create attacking opportunities and turnovers. He does this by hunting the opposition down before they reach the gain line. Passive tacklers may rack up the meaningless stats but they often concede the gain line in the process. This is why Dan when fit and playing well is a hugely effective player.

Whether SOB is a good enough 7 to take advantage of Lydiates expertise remains to be seen

I understand what you're saying about how Warbs plays better with Lydiate in the backrow, but thats just because it balances better, it doesn't mean that Lydiate is world class. There are plenty of other 6s who can come in and do the dirty work to the same standard but that also offer a hell of a lot more around the pitch. Robshaw for instance hits around 25-30 rucks a game, tackles more than lydiate does, carries far more and comes in as first receiver and passes better than him, not to mention that he is a very good leader as well.

Lydiate is a good player, that does a job, world class he is not.

To turn this around, what would you welshies think if all the english had lauded Joe Worseley as the best 6 in the NH and world class?

Sean Maitland. Heavily tipped in some quarters to start the first test before the tour began but has looked underwhelming from day 1. Likewise I felt Stuart Hogg's counterattacking prowess was more than a tad overheralded based on one try vs Italy.

 

"To turn this around, what would you welshies think if all the english had lauded Joe Worseley as the best 6 in the NH and world class?"

I would have thought that considering he never held down a first team place in his national side and never once stood out consistently in a 6 Nations tournament then it was a strange statement to make - just my view of course

Knowsit17 wrote:Sean Maitland. Heavily tipped in some quarters to start the first test before the tour began but has looked underwhelming from day 1. Likewise I felt Stuart Hogg's counterattacking prowess was more than a tad overheralded based on one try vs Italy.

Didn't see the tries we scored against England then? Or the Hatrick he scored against Munster?

Mind you, I don't know many guys who can counter attack from fly half since half the games he was picked he played at 10. But do carry on....

I'm an Englishmen and I was impressed with those counter attacking tries in 6n. Maybe Aussie defence is a lot better than England's.

ruby guby

Joe Worsley with 78 caps for England never held down a 1st team place. 

Look I know you think Lydiate is a living legend but outside Wales we don't think he is.



Guns Germs which of my statements do you disagree with in regards to Bowe? I think he has done very little to warrant such high praise and supplant Cuthbert in the starting line up. Bowe has struggled to touch the ball because he has had difficulty catching it.

The 1st test showed that wingers can have a big impact. As you say North has been very good, Bowe has offered very little.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Sean Maitland. Heavily tipped in some quarters to start the first test before the tour began but has looked underwhelming from day 1. Likewise I felt Stuart Hogg's counterattacking prowess was more than a tad overheralded based on one try vs Italy.

Didn't see the tries we scored against England then? Or the Hatrick he scored against Munster?

Mind you, I don't know many guys who can counter attack from fly half since half the games he was picked he played at 10. But do carry on....

Boo hoo, do cry me a river on which to sail away if I can't bring myself to praise the ears off every Scot in the squad

 Let's not forget that 27 of Worsleys caps were as a replacement suggesting there were better back row players in front of him

And he was taken off in 22 of those other games

belovedfrosties wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Yet again know nothing numnuts slagging Lydiate. It was of course a complete coincidence that Warbs was able to boss the breakdown with Dan as his partner. The BR is a unit in which each player has his responsibilities. Dan and Sam work as a team and that's why it works. Also the morons who just reel off stats as a substitute for understanding the game just get on my jubblies. Lydiate is effective because his tackles create attacking opportunities and turnovers. He does this by hunting the opposition down before they reach the gain line. Passive tacklers may rack up the meaningless stats but they often concede the gain line in the process. This is why Dan when fit and playing well is a hugely effective player.

Whether SOB is a good enough 7 to take advantage of Lydiates expertise remains to be seen

I understand what you're saying about how Warbs plays better with Lydiate in the backrow, but thats just because it balances better, it doesn't mean that Lydiate is world class.   There are plenty of other 6s who can come in and do the dirty work to the same standard but that also offer a hell of a lot more around the pitch.  Robshaw for instance hits around 25-30 rucks a game, tackles more than lydiate does, carries far more and comes in as first receiver and passes better than him, not to mention that he is a very good leader as well.

Lydiate is a good player, that does a job, world class he is not.

To turn this around, what would you welshies think if all the english had lauded Joe Worseley as the best 6 in the NH and world class?

Its not just the Welshies mate, France absolutely love the guy, hence his FOUR offers from French clubs even tho he just incurred his SECOND serious career threatening injury. The All Blacks media in 2012 had him as the 6 in a "world team", Richie McCaw stated he was the top blindside in the NH and maybe on a world stage. I am a scot and having played blindside for 20 yrs plus its kinda obvious to me what he does and for the uneducated its most certainly not just tackling, he has a 100% success rate in the line out, very aware, deceptively quick off those first 5-10 metres and he is surprisingly versatile (could easily play 8). A lot of people only see the headline runners (i.e. Croft amongst others). News Alert its not the primary role of a BS Flanker.

And yes I am sure most impartial Welshies or any other nation would say that Worsely was at a point in time up there with the worlds best in his role, i.e. a more traditional flanker.

beshocked wrote:Jelly I don't know how you can call Vunipola overrated at all. He has done exactly what people have said he would be - be strong in the loose but find it tough in the scrum.

I didn't call him overrated at all. I said I thought he had been praised too highly for his early performances (people were talking about him being the star of the tour based on some of the early tour games) and that he was overly criticised for the 2nd test performance.

jelly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Jelly I don't know how you can call Vunipola overrated at all. He has done exactly what people have said he would be - be strong in the loose but find it tough in the scrum.

I didn't call him overrated at all. I said I thought he had been praised too highly for his early performances (people were talking about him being the star of the tour based on some of the early tour games) and that he was overly criticised for the 2nd test performance.

Beshoked on that rationale you must think that Lydiate is not over-rated....... as he has done exactly what people have said he would do. The most prolific tackler of both nations on the Lions tour of 2013.

Or have you some double standards?

flyhalffactory wrote:

jelly wrote:

beshocked wrote:Jelly I don't know how you can call Vunipola overrated at all. He has done exactly what people have said he would be - be strong in the loose but find it tough in the scrum.

I didn't call him overrated at all. I said I thought he had been praised too highly for his early performances (people were talking about him being the star of the tour based on some of the early tour games) and that he was overly criticised for the 2nd test performance.

Beshoked on that rationale you must think that Lydiate is not over-rated....... as he has done exactly what people have said he would do. The most prolific tackler of both nations on the Lions tour of 2013.

Or have you some double standards?

  says it all really.

flyfactory

You can say words like Lydiate is aware,he is quick,he could play no 8 if he wanted to etc but those are just hollow words.

He has not shown himself to be a threat with ball in hand for Wales. He has not played 8 so that's irrelevant. You can speculate but as it stands Lydiate has not shown himself to be versatile.

So what exactly does he do other than tackle? Be specific.

As you obviously see yourself as a bit of a backrow guru. Explain to us what Lydiate does that we are missing.

What does he also do that none of Robshaw,Brown or Wood could do?

flyhalffactory wrote:
Its not just the Welshies mate, France absolutely love the guy, hence his FOUR offers from French clubs even tho he just incurred his SECOND serious career threatening injury. The All Blacks media in 2012 had him as the 6 in a "world team", Richie McCaw stated he was the top blindside in the NH and maybe on a world stage. I am a scot and having played blindside for 20 yrs plus its kinda obvious to me what he does and for the uneducated its most certainly not just tackling, he has a 100% success rate in the line out, very aware, deceptively quick off those first 5-10 metres and he is surprisingly versatile (could easily play 8). A lot of people only see the headline runners (i.e. Croft amongst others). News Alert its not the primary role of a BS Flanker.

And yes I am sure most impartial Welshies or any other nation would say that Worsely was at a point in time up there with the worlds best in his role, i.e. a more traditional flanker.

Have you links to either of these claims? I have never heard or read this and couldn't find it with a quick search.

See, this is the typical argument for Lydiate. Anyone who questions his abilities are told "you don't understand rugby" or "you only notice the flashy players". Yet nobody actually answers the criticisms, rather they just dance around them with silly cliches. Not only that, but I had to laugh when Ruby claimed the other day that anyone who criticised Lydiate didn't understand rugby but (now here is the good part) that his tackling freed up other players to carry. Just think about that and of the irony in that statement. He isn't the only one to say these things either.

Your stat for 100% success rate in the line-out is completely wrong, for one who complains about certain stats being inaccurate the ones you are using clearly are. If you really did watch Lydiate at all this tour, he dropped 2 line-out balls in the first warm up game. So how can he have 100% line-out success if he quite clearly failed to catch the ball merely 3 weeks ago?

Whether you played blindside or not means nothing, it doesn't make you right. I also played blindside, and I wasn't an effective ball carrier, I mostly did the donkey work. I don't rate Lydiate very highly outside of his tackling abilities.

Knowsit17 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Sean Maitland. Heavily tipped in some quarters to start the first test before the tour began but has looked underwhelming from day 1. Likewise I felt Stuart Hogg's counterattacking prowess was more than a tad overheralded based on one try vs Italy.

Didn't see the tries we scored against England then? Or the Hatrick he scored against Munster?

Mind you, I don't know many guys who can counter attack from fly half since half the games he was picked he played at 10. But do carry on....

Boo hoo, do cry me a river on which to sail away if I can't bring myself to praise the ears off every Scot in the squad

Boo Hoo, do your homework before criticizing players you know nothing about.

Certainly does not make me an expert and as for sklrting around the criticsm well Rory old pal it works both ways. I will check your claims that he missed balls in the lineout but from my very quick research he has had two line out calls up to the 2nd test and won both. I am always willing to stand up and admit if I provide duff info but at this point I dont believe I have.

As far as an attacking threat or his supposed lack of it.... lets see

Scored a try
Made / assist two tries
Countless turnovers which has regained possession so that the Lions (AS A NATION) can start an attacking movement.
Gatland will give him firm instructions: hold the defensive line, tackle tackle tackle, strangle the life out of the opponents. If the opportunity arises make the odd headline run with ball in hand, and heck perhaps even score a try. But for gawds sake don't set up camp on the wing.

Scored a try off the back of a rolling maul set up by the other 7 forwards. Any one of them would have scored it, that is a great example of taking a stat that suits and using it to your advantage. It does not show he did well in attack there, and you know it.

What about your claim regarding McCaw calling Lydiate the best 6 in the northern hemisphere? I looked for that and couldn't find it, where did you hear that one?

Dont worry mate I dont spin a yarn. I will find it for you if I can.

You can counter argue every stat.... they are what they are of very little use to be manipulated for ones own agenda re: the stats used to justify BODs performance over Davies, or 1/2ps inclusion as a FB.....etc etc etc.

Ì think best leave this little sword fencing until Saturday morning. Alot of us one way or the other will be eating humble pie.

flyhalffactory wrote:Dont worry mate I dont spin a yarn. I will find it for you if I can.

You can counter argue every stat.... they are what they are of very little use to be manipulated for ones own agenda re: the stats used to justify BODs performance over Davies, or 1/2ps inclusion as a FB.....etc etc etc.

Ì think best leave this little sword fencing until Saturday morning. Alot of us one way or the other will be eating humble pie.

Who knows we may be all saying/arguing if BOD was the most over-rated, if the Lions trounce Aus.

Sexton has done nothing in either test. No line breaks, created nothing for anyone else, kicked ball to their back three. Oh and that wrap around thing with BOD which the opposition see coming every time.

Exiledinborders wrote:Sexton has done nothing in either test. No line breaks, created nothing for anyone else, kicked ball to their back three. Oh and that wrap around thing with BOD which the opposition see coming every time.

In the first test Sexton chipped and re gathered on a few occasions. He was fairly industrious despite dreadful service from Philips. In the second test the Lions didnt get much posession and Youngs wasnt great either really was he? Sexton hasnt done much wrong except for a terrible attempt at a tackle on Folau.

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match22231.html


Very interesting look stats.

Looks like Dan Lydiate was in sparkling form with 9 tackles, 4 missed tackles, giving away 1 penalty and making no turnovers. 4 runs for only 10m.

Of course because they make the likes of Lydiate look bad they are a load of rubbish right guys?

beshocked wrote:http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match22231.html


Very interesting look stats.

Looks like Dan Lydiate was in sparkling form with 9 tackles, 4 missed tackles, giving away 1 penalty and making no turnovers. 4 runs for only 10m.

Of course because they make the likes of Lydiate look bad they are a load of rubbish right guys?

On the few things we agree on, We have both said he should never have been there.

beshocked wrote:http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match22231.html


Very interesting look stats.

Looks like Dan Lydiate was in sparkling form with 9 tackles, 4 missed tackles, giving away 1 penalty and making no turnovers. 4 runs for only 10m.

Of course because they make the likes of Lydiate look bad they are a load of rubbish right guys?

beshocked, I am surprised at you, sir, picking on an individual player like that - what a "fall from grace"

 aslongasbut100ofus I am flattered you think I can actually fall from somewhere.

beshocked wrote: aslongasbut100ofus I am flattered you think I can actually fall from somewhere.

True, that, more of a very small step down of the lowest rung!

Roberts - in terrible form, injured and then dropped into the starting line up

" Lineout - Croft is the better option, but he has lost some crucial ones (albeit you can argue the throws were dire) notably the most important one in the 2nd test. Lydiate when he has rec'd the ball has not lost one and had won two against the head."

Lydiate was mugged off at the tail early into the second test and after that Parling didn't both calling anything to the tail. Lydiate was so ineffectual at challenging Mowen at the back of the lineout that Parling but himself there towards the end of the game to try and stop the Aussie quick ball. The mess of a final Lions lineout in the second test occurred because Hibbard managed to throw the ball well over Parling (not Croft) in the middle of the lineout. That really was hooker error.

Lydiate and Warburton work well as a combination but Lydiate as a stand alone player is very much a Joe Worsley. Great tackler but little else going. Even his tackle count wasn't great in the second test with Parling, Mako and BOD all completing more. I have to agree with Beshocked in that Kelly Brown really should have gone instead.

The idea that Croft doesn't tackle is also because he tends to make a greater impact when he appears on the flank with his scything tackle and speedy breaks. His work at the breakdown and tackling is often overlooked. Take the last mid week game where Tipuric came on roughly 10 mins before Croft yet Croft comes off the pitch having made more tackles. Some fans still complaining he was on the wing as well. Do you honestly think Richard Cockerill would retain a work shy flanker?

Henson. Again he shows that when the pressure is on he just doesn't show up.