Young ALI/CLAY

Can anyone name a heavyweight in thier prime from any era who could beat prime Ali/Clay

I can't.

Joe Frazier maybe.......Cooper decked the young Clay...........Foreman If he connected properly and maybe Jack Johnson because Ali didn't enjoy forcing the fight (Watch the Lyle fight)..

But no one for sure..

If Frazier could not beat a slightly fat less mobile version of I don't think he gets near thee Ali. Even in his pomp. Still I can wwatch them 2 go at it everyday

I did watch Ali v Lyle yesterday. Ali ran straight at Lyle from round 1.

Joe Louis

He'd beat Clay/Ali in the same night

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:Joe Louis

He'd beat Clay/Ali in the same night

Cheers Rodders

Whatever your smoking please share.

Noway on Gods green earth does plodder Louis get to even sniff Ali. I think Johnson would have the savy to trouble Ali.

Not that it means anything but Moore thought Ali - Louis was a mismatch.........

and I agree with him...Nothing Louis does that Ali doesn't do better..

Sorry rod..

A plodder ?

Which Louis are you talking about ?

Cheers Rodders

Mike Tyson would give him fits. Fast head movement, ferocious puncher, good lateral movement. He had it all in his prime including a decent chin.

mobilemaster8 wrote:Mike Tyson would give him fits. Fast head movement, ferocious puncher, good lateral movement. He had it all in his prime including a decent chin.

Depends on the ring size. Big ring Ali destroys him small ring Ali still wins but Tyson makes a fight of it.

Whilst I am firmly of the opinion Ali beats Louis he does not have it easy, nor does any heavy ever. Louis may not have been the most fleet of foot but to describe him as a plodder is just insulting. Was a master of closing the distance between him and an opponent and was virtually the dictionary definition of economy of movement and once he got in close his punches were anything but close.

As I say I would back Ali but he has to be at his absolute best to get the win and any mistake or lapse in concentration is fatal because if he does allow Louis to get close and Louis lands he has both the power and the finishing instincts to not let even Ali off the hook.

Lennox Lewis would perhaps beat Ali 4 times out of every ten.

Jack Johnson might give him trouble for the first few rounds, but Johnson never really saw proper combination punching in his era so when faced with the lazer punches in bunches of Ali his defensive style may come up short.

Tyson would be hell for the first six at least. Chances go up drastically if it's over 12 instead of 15.

Got to say Louis' fundamentals and explosive power would certainly make Ali nervous for as long as it lasted.

Bowe would be interesting. A big guy who could force it up close. Had a better inside game than Ali plus size, toughness and lasting power.

Still, I can't pick anyone over the Ali who obliterated Williams, shot though he was.

Duty281 wrote:Lennox Lewis would perhaps beat Ali 4 times out of every ten.

Are we talking about them fighting now, if so I agree, although I'd perhaps suggest 3 out of ten may be more realistic.

Rowley wrote:Whilst I am firmly of the opinion Ali beats Louis he does not have it easy, nor does any heavy ever. Louis may not have been the most fleet of foot but to describe him as a plodder is just insulting. Was a master of closing the distance between him and an opponent and was virtually the dictionary definition of economy of movement and once he got in close his punches were anything but close.

As I say I would back Ali but he has to be at his absolute best to get the win and any mistake or lapse in concentration is fatal because if he does allow Louis to get close and Louis lands he has both the power and the finishing instincts to not let even Ali off the hook.

Surely If Conn outboxed and staggered Louis...Ali beats him comfortably....enough.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Rowley wrote:Whilst I am firmly of the opinion Ali beats Louis he does not have it easy, nor does any heavy ever. Louis may not have been the most fleet of foot but to describe him as a plodder is just insulting. Was a master of closing the distance between him and an opponent and was virtually the dictionary definition of economy of movement and once he got in close his punches were anything but close.

As I say I would back Ali but he has to be at his absolute best to get the win and any mistake or lapse in concentration is fatal because if he does allow Louis to get close and Louis lands he has both the power and the finishing instincts to not let even Ali off the hook.

Surely If Conn outboxed and staggered Louis...Ali beats him comfortably....enough.

come on Truss you're better than that. That is akin to me saying surely if Cooper knocks Ali down Louis keeps him there.

Never seen Ali employ the upclose tactics that Conn did against Louis.

Rowley wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Rowley wrote:Whilst I am firmly of the opinion Ali beats Louis he does not have it easy, nor does any heavy ever. Louis may not have been the most fleet of foot but to describe him as a plodder is just insulting. Was a master of closing the distance between him and an opponent and was virtually the dictionary definition of economy of movement and once he got in close his punches were anything but close.

As I say I would back Ali but he has to be at his absolute best to get the win and any mistake or lapse in concentration is fatal because if he does allow Louis to get close and Louis lands he has both the power and the finishing instincts to not let even Ali off the hook.

Surely If Conn outboxed and staggered Louis...Ali beats him comfortably....enough.

come on Truss you're better than that. That is akin to me saying surely if Cooper knocks Ali down Louis keeps him there.

Don't want to argue but Ali got caught messing about..............It's hardly the same thing...If he is all business as was Billy then I don't see how it's any different to Ali-Liston 1........

It's a 50:50 fight to me, can't see anything in history to dismiss Louis completely.

We can argue if a One punch specialist come forward fighter in Frazier give Ali fits, why can't a two fisted counter specialist not ?

No probs whoever backs Ali to win totally justifiably however for those predicting a cake walk are either deluded or grossly underestimating Louis.

Cheers Rodders

It's not a 50/50 fight though is it................

Did louis beat anyone as good as Frazier........nope........

Conn a better boxer than Ali..........nope...but much smaller..

Come on Rodney..

As John said Conn crowded Louis, Ali wouldn't do that.

Louis is a better fighter than Frazier, i think that pretty clear to see Truss.

Cheers Rodders

And Louis came in way too light and drained against Conn. There are always reasons for off nights. My own view is for these kind of fantasy fights we have to assume every fighter is at something approaching their best and my own view is at his best Louis is not an easy nights work for anyone. Agree Ali did get caught acting the clown but the argument remains what happens if he acts the clown in a similar manner against Louis

There no-one that I'd pick over Ali, but I agree with those that say it's no "gimme" for him to beat Louis. I love the way that Louis just gets dismissed these days. It's not as though Ali never struggled or looked ordinary in his career.

Wasn't the win over Doug Jones disputed by many?

I'd say Liston (if he was in his prime) would have a great chance.

hazharrison wrote:I'd say Liston (if he was in his prime) would have a great chance.

In the minority there..

No doubt. He was a geriatric the first time they met (seemed to pull his punches to me) and the second was worse acting than Madonna.

In his prime he was formidable, though.

You're suggesting it was fixed..........

Peter Jackson

Before or after the Lord of the rings..

Nearly suggested Jackson vs Johnson Dave, is about time the black pearl made a comeback on here. These new young whippersnappers may be unaware of his genius.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're suggesting it was fixed..........

The second fight definitely was.

You don't know that Haz...and I think it's wrong to play down one of the greatest performances in heavyweight history by suggesting the first fight was fixed..

Nothing to suggest he didn't just get outboxed...

I am in the minority of probably one in not agreeing the second Liston Ali fight was a fix. My thing has always been if Liston was going to go in the bag surely he would make a lot more convincing job of it than he did. Thing to remember with Liston is he was almost universally hated by the powers that be who needed little to no excuse to screw him. Now knowing that he surely knew that if he got caught up in any kind of scandal he was going to become a pariah. Given this surely he does not go down from the first punch that comes near him.

Also worth noting most of the people crying foul were journalists, most of the ex fighters who were ringside called the punch genuine. My own view is Sonny got himself in extraordinary shape for the rematch and then when it was delayed this really hit him hard and he could not bring himself to do the work to get himself back to such a peak and simply entered the ring completely unprepared and simply got cold in such a condition. Also worth remembering had Walcott not made such a half arsed job of the stoppage he was up and willing to continue.

The problem with conspiracy theories is at the end of the day most of them aren't true and we are left with mundane reality....

Fact now that the bullets that killed JFK were from the book depository........Armstrong did land on the moon after all.........Liston did get old and didn't fancy a prolonged slap.....(Ali took the fight out of him the first time)

and If Liston had tried Heroin...his need would have been so great he would have overcome his hatred of needles...

Shame really I'd love to believe in the man in the Moon....

Can't agree with you there Geoff -- Liston's pretend fall and roll was cringeworthy. Ali and Dundee both joked about it with their tongues firmly in their cheeks. You couldn't put Liston over with a blundebuss -- never mind a jab (even Ali is frustrated when Liston hits the deck. He waves his fist as though to say: "I haven't hit you yet you prannet").

Liston seemed to think he'd been hit...Never changed his story......

Dundee always claimed Ali caught him with a shot he didn't see.....

liston hardly trained apparently and wasn't in the greatest physical condition to take a shot....

I'm with Rowley......He got old......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prxnGjKjxoo

My two cents on the second fight is the knockdown was genuine. You can see the jaw move and the back muscles wobble slightly upon impact. He was chasing Ali around the whole round and lunged in without a thought for what might come back. Ali didn't throw a haymaker but it was a well placed and timed shot from a 212lb (guessing) guy. Liston apparently got caught cold and hit the deck.

Now the entire first round consisted of Ali very rarely deciding he'd hit Liston in the face and at these times he did with ease and for the rest of the time he made Liston look like a chump with his movement. Liston's gameplan was obvious: Attack the body. It didn't work. He lunged in, caught, hit the deck and thought, "I'm too old for this sh!t. May as well lose now rather than go through this for another 14 rounds." and tried to fake his way out. The way he gets to a knee then crumples to the floor again for no apparent reason...just doesn't look right. However Walcott messed up and gave him ages to get up which basically forced him to carry on and that's why he eventually got up. After he got up he did just cower back and let Ali tee off until Walcott realised he'd given a long count and halted it.

So to my eye he just got old and quit having given his best for the previous minute and knowing he didn't have the fitness to keep it up for long.

The thing that I find most incredible about Ali was that he was able to become the greatest heavyweight of all time, and a contender for the greatest pound for pound fighter with so many flaws / components missing from his arsenal. No inside game , poor left hook, no uppercuts to speak of, flurried instead of throwing combinations, average puncher, when his reflects slowed a bit his defence was mediocre etc, and yet the gifts he did possess were able to take him to a higher plane.There's a sequence in his fight with Williams when Williams throws a succession of jabs and the way Ali slips and pulls back from them is just sublime, effortless almost. Whatever yor opinion about who may or may not have been able to beat him, you would have to concede that a heavyweight able to fight that gracefully is one off, I honestly don't thnk we'll ever see another one like him.

With his chin up, hands down and arrogance I can only imagine how he'd be written off as an accident waiting to happen if he were around today.

Joe Frazier would be my best bet, the third fight of theirs is no reflection of how a prime v prime fight would pan out, Ali simply aged a lot better.

The first fight is how I would envisage it panning out but a lot closer, young Ali was more vulnerable than the older wiser version so the hurrying of Frazier could prove a problem for him as it did when he returned from exile. There is a chance that he dances around Frazier all fight frustrating him and forcing him to make more mistakes but a close fight I could see now the less.

Tyson, Foreman, Liston, Lewis as well as any big hitter would have a chance but it relies on them landing early and putting him down for the full ten which I don't see happening, none of them win a decision against him.

Rowley wrote:Nearly suggested Jackson vs Johnson Dave, is about time the black pearl made a comeback on here. These new young whippersnappers may be unaware of his genius.

Just noticed this. It's the "Black Prince" not the "Black Pearl"...that was Pele

You're right Dave, this is the price we pay for not discussing him often enough, even those who love the old boy forget about him.

Wonder if the same fate will befall TROSSMUN

I definitely think a younger Liston at his best would have given any version of Ali problems, Louis had the tools to give anyone a tough night, Even though he lost on another night Foreman would have had a sniff if he fought the right fight, Tunney had the skills and would have made Ali fight his fight. Whether any could have beaten Ali i dont know because at his peak before his license was taken away he was an almost perfect fighting machine and may have gone on to be p4p greatest of all time if he had not lost those peak years.