How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.
There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.
There may well be players recently retired or overlooked by national selectors that you rate in the best of the best.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Ohhhhh Maes you tinker this will set the board on fire.
For me (Wales) then if we are using the top 3 in their position I would say we have 2 defs Halfpenny and A Jones poss 3 with North.
For me (Wales) then if we are using the top 3 in their position I would say we have 2 defs Halfpenny and A Jones poss 3 with North.
bedfordwelsh- Moderator
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
I am hoping it won't Beds mate.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Hehe this thread smells controvery...
For france, the likely one would be picamoles then possibly fofana and domingo and a small mention of dusautoir (although there is so many so called world class backrowers out there that it will obviously create a lot of debate).
Retired: hayman and botha when they are not on a lazy day.
For france, the likely one would be picamoles then possibly fofana and domingo and a small mention of dusautoir (although there is so many so called world class backrowers out there that it will obviously create a lot of debate).
Retired: hayman and botha when they are not on a lazy day.
whocares- Posts : 4270
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Hard to say really. Some contenders, probably none definite right now. But I count World Class as in a World 23. And world class players do not a super team make
ChequeredJersey- Posts : 18707
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Good point CJ. Need to find the right combinator to create such super team
whocares- Posts : 4270
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
we not going to add the "on their day" bit to this?
nathan- Posts : 11033
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Fofana and Picamoles are definitely in the gang.
It's interesting to see how even just five years ago, France had five or Six players, now two.
It's interesting to see how even just five years ago, France had five or Six players, now two.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
ChequeredJersey wrote:Hard to say really. Some contenders, probably none definite right now. But I count World Class as in a World 23. And world class players do not a super team make
CJ
Under the definition allowed I would certainly include Alex Corbisiero
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
The Autumn Internationals will give an indication as to the here and now everything else is history. A lot of players didn't even get a showcase in Australia.
After all Corbisiero was 4th choice LH for the Lions for example & proved what a great prop he can be.
After all Corbisiero was 4th choice LH for the Lions for example & proved what a great prop he can be.
BigTrevsbigmac- Posts : 3342
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Dagg, Conrad Smith, Carter, Read, McCaw.
Some more borderline ones like Nonu, Whitelock, Mealamu but I'll stick with the first list.
Some more borderline ones like Nonu, Whitelock, Mealamu but I'll stick with the first list.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
maestegmafia wrote:Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.
What does this mean? The top three in what regard? Who decides!
It is ridiculous to rate say tight head props when some have seven great forwards around them and some don't.
Anyone who plays in a World cup is World class because they are representing their nation in a global competition. Who can justifiably say that any of those players would or wouldn't make any other national team? Therefore every current Test player is 'world class', because they have reached the pinnacle of what they can achieve.
In the limited terms of this thread, if Dan Carter was German would he be described as world class? There is no objective way to rate individual players from different nations against each other because they only perform in the context of their own teams.
The Great Aukster- Posts : 5246
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
The Great Aukster wrote:maestegmafia wrote:Lets define the often maligned, much used phrase "World Class" as being a player who is in the top three in their position in World rugby.
What does this mean? The top three in what regard? Who decides!
It is ridiculous to rate say tight head props when some have seven great forwards around them and some don't.
Anyone who plays in a World cup is World class because they are representing their nation in a global competition. Who can justifiably say that any of those players would or wouldn't make any other national team? Therefore every current Test player is 'world class', because they have reached the pinnacle of what they can achieve.
In the limited terms of this thread, if Dan Carter was German would he be described as world class? There is no objective way to rate individual players from different nations against each other because they only perform in the context of their own teams.
Yes
ChequeredJersey- Posts : 18707
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Top 3 in positions for England I'd say:
Ben Youngs, Dan Cole, Alex Corbisiero, Manu Tuilagi are definates.
Could argue for and against Tom Youngs, Tom Wood, Owen Farrell. I personally wouldn't have any of them in top 3 but the fly half and hooker positions especially aren't full of talent at this current time.
Ben Youngs, Dan Cole, Alex Corbisiero, Manu Tuilagi are definates.
Could argue for and against Tom Youngs, Tom Wood, Owen Farrell. I personally wouldn't have any of them in top 3 but the fly half and hooker positions especially aren't full of talent at this current time.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
in terms of wales I think Bedford had it pretty spot on, JD2 potentially along with Faletau, Warbs and Tips and Phillips and Roberts could have been previously
for other teams
England
corbs
potentially cole and tuilagi
Ireland
Healy
BOD
POC
sexton borderline
SOB almost
Scotland
potentially Gray and Hogg
Italy
Parisse
Zanni
France
Picamole
Para
Fofana
Mas
I am not very aware of SH rugby apart from the obvious players like Carter, McCaw, Pocock, Louw etc
for other teams
England
corbs
potentially cole and tuilagi
Ireland
Healy
BOD
POC
sexton borderline
SOB almost
Scotland
potentially Gray and Hogg
Italy
Parisse
Zanni
France
Picamole
Para
Fofana
Mas
I am not very aware of SH rugby apart from the obvious players like Carter, McCaw, Pocock, Louw etc
welshy824 (new)- Posts : 162
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Definitely Sexton
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
I'd much rather have a really good collective with cohesive units allied to an intelligent (and suitable) gameplan.
Having individual "world class" players does not necessarily a great side make.
I've seen "world XVs" on here with up to 10 players from a certain nation who haven't troubled the top 3 in quite a while. It doesn't really stack up.
Having individual "world class" players does not necessarily a great side make.
I've seen "world XVs" on here with up to 10 players from a certain nation who haven't troubled the top 3 in quite a while. It doesn't really stack up.
Cyril- Posts : 7162
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
for Wales Adam north jd and obviously halfpenny . jd being the controversial one
jimmyinthewell68- Posts : 1237
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Ben Smith, Conrad Smith, Aaron Smith, Johnny Marr and Morrisey.
GloriousEmpire- Posts : 4411
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Aaron Smith, Wil Genia and maybe Ruan Pienaar are who I think are the best three scrumhalfs.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
I think we should perhaps impose a moratorium on naming "world class" front rows until the new season starts. From what little evidence there's been so far (mainly comments from coaches and watching the 7s), the changes to scrum engagement make it far harder for a scrum to dominate solely through a big hit.
I'd also say that there's a big difference between "world class" now and "world class" when it really counts - in 2015.
England don't have many players now who are unambiguously in the best 2 or 3 in their position, but there are several who could be if they continue to develop. They also, of all the NH nations, seem to me to have the best chance of developing a world class squad - that is a group of 30+ players who are all internationally competitive.
Wales have more world class candidates right now, but I worry about how many of them will actually be fit come 2015, and I don't see where the strength in depth will come from, particularly in the tight 5 (though given my first point above, maybe there a load of players who will come through as a result of the changes).
Ireland have undeniably world class players in BOD and POC, but won't have them much longer.
It is pointless to talk about world class players in the context of France, since normal notions of talent and form, like EC regulations, only apply when the French feel like it. At any given point in time, the entire French squad can play like the greatest rugby team ever to grace the field, or they can play like drains. Often in the course of the same match.
I'd also say that there's a big difference between "world class" now and "world class" when it really counts - in 2015.
England don't have many players now who are unambiguously in the best 2 or 3 in their position, but there are several who could be if they continue to develop. They also, of all the NH nations, seem to me to have the best chance of developing a world class squad - that is a group of 30+ players who are all internationally competitive.
Wales have more world class candidates right now, but I worry about how many of them will actually be fit come 2015, and I don't see where the strength in depth will come from, particularly in the tight 5 (though given my first point above, maybe there a load of players who will come through as a result of the changes).
Ireland have undeniably world class players in BOD and POC, but won't have them much longer.
It is pointless to talk about world class players in the context of France, since normal notions of talent and form, like EC regulations, only apply when the French feel like it. At any given point in time, the entire French squad can play like the greatest rugby team ever to grace the field, or they can play like drains. Often in the course of the same match.
Poorfour- Posts : 6095
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Genia & Youngs are the two standout scrum halfs about imo, the 3rd could anyone from Parra, Pienaar, Smith etc.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Genia & Youngs are the two standout scrum halfs about imo, the 3rd could anyone from Parra, Pienaar, Smith etc.
All opinions welcome Pooly
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
HHmmm for England..i honestly think theres a few who "could" get there, but at the moment...
Alex Corbisieru
Dan Cole
are the only two.
Alex Corbisieru
Dan Cole
are the only two.
Geordie- Posts : 28516
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Throws up some tough choices to wedge players into a world 23. Would you go with Halfpenny as a kicking option? Or take Dagg for his counter attacking and linking game and ability to inject at first receiver? I guess the point about combinations is pertient. With Carter at 10 presumably Halfpenny is redundant.
GloriousEmpire- Posts : 4411
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
You're assuming Carter would be 10
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
O Franks? S Whitelock? Read! McCaw! A Smith? Carter! Cruden? Nonu? C Smith! Jane? Dagg! also Kaino?
nganboy- Posts : 1868
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Kaino hasn't played top class rugby for 2 years. Surprised Smith is getting mentioned, he's had an awful season.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
I reckon a fit Jane and Savea would push strongly too. North would be on the left wing in a World XV but Jane is just unbelievably solid and has the best fend in the game (the second best belonging to the bloke at 10). Maybe Whitelock knocking on the door-he does keep getting better and better and will be very much a World XV candidate in a few years.
disneychilly- Posts : 2156
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Ha Pooly considering Carter's giving Barry John a run for his money for the best 10 ever I'd safely say that he's world class.
disneychilly- Posts : 2156
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
If he stays fit (big if?) through the AIs, I reckon we will be able to put Ben Morgan up there as one of the top 3 8s in the world
BamBam- Posts : 17226
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
disneychilly wrote:Ha Pooly considering Carter's giving Barry John a run for his money for the best 10 ever I'd safely say that he's world class.
Haha....was slightly tongue in cheek Disney
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
I was waiting for you to mention someone like Biggar, Parks or Donald mate
disneychilly- Posts : 2156
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
poor4
Definitely get where you are coming from regarding England. Ignoring your 'front row' moratorium, I'd say currently we have borderline world class players in Corbs, Cole and Tuillagi and a couple of others (Robshaw, Ben Youngs) falling just a bit short.
However, we have a generally young squad with plenty of scope for improvement from the likes of Tom Youngs, Launchbury, Wood, Morgan, Farrell and perhaps 36 that could take them up to being world class (too early to tell for the likes of Wade). Obviously, I'm not suggesting that all of them WILL become world class players (maybe some will plateau and decline as Ashton has, and others will probably fall by the wayside through injury) but there is certainly grounds for optimism about England's prospects in the short to medium term.
Not sure I would call BOD a world class player now - no doubting that he was, but he is clearly not as much of a physical threat as a few years ago. POC maybe still just is, but again age and miles on the clock are taking their toll.
Definitely get where you are coming from regarding England. Ignoring your 'front row' moratorium, I'd say currently we have borderline world class players in Corbs, Cole and Tuillagi and a couple of others (Robshaw, Ben Youngs) falling just a bit short.
However, we have a generally young squad with plenty of scope for improvement from the likes of Tom Youngs, Launchbury, Wood, Morgan, Farrell and perhaps 36 that could take them up to being world class (too early to tell for the likes of Wade). Obviously, I'm not suggesting that all of them WILL become world class players (maybe some will plateau and decline as Ashton has, and others will probably fall by the wayside through injury) but there is certainly grounds for optimism about England's prospects in the short to medium term.
Not sure I would call BOD a world class player now - no doubting that he was, but he is clearly not as much of a physical threat as a few years ago. POC maybe still just is, but again age and miles on the clock are taking their toll.
dummy_half- Posts : 6330
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Don't think Scotland would have any definites to be honest, the only ones on the possible list would be Gray, Brown and Rennie when he's not injured, and those are probably slim possibilities if Im honest. Especially as mentioned above with the stiff competition in the back row. One or two others might be listed under that other over-used heading of "potential". Where I think we have improved is that maybe we have more players in the side who are probably in the top 5-10 in their position where in the past we were filling the side with players who wouldn't get t into most test squads. If we can get our good players playing well as a team i won't mind lacking players with the world class label.
Pat_Mustard- Posts : 601
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Ireland
O'Connell
Bowe
O'Brien
Healy
Sexton
Ferris *
Kearney *
* When fit.
O'Connell
Bowe
O'Brien
Healy
Sexton
Ferris *
Kearney *
* When fit.
rodders- Moderator
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
I havent seen a post by our esteemed south African friend as yet, though I imagine when he chooses to contribute that Jean de Villiers would be on his list of World Class Boks
Here is a some youtube footage comparing Jean de Villiers vs Tuilagi from last year.
Here is a some youtube footage comparing Jean de Villiers vs Tuilagi from last year.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Tuilagi is not world class...has potential to become it...but not yet. Personally, i think thats where quite a few of the England group are at the minute...
Geordie- Posts : 28516
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Would agree that there a few from England with the potential to be top 3 in their position but at the moment I would only put Cole and Corbisiero in that bracket. Loads of potential though.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31349
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
The interesting point that seems to be developing is that the talent is decently spread amongst a number of sides, plenty of competition in the backrow but less so in areas like front row, eight and flyhalf...
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Ireland (on current form)
Healy
POC
O'Brien
Sexton
From the last few years at their peak:
BOD (though there may not be that many centres better than him even now)
Bowe
Kearney
Ferris
Heaslip
Healy
POC
O'Brien
Sexton
From the last few years at their peak:
BOD (though there may not be that many centres better than him even now)
Bowe
Kearney
Ferris
Heaslip
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
maestegmafia wrote:The interesting point that seems to be developing is that the talent is decently spread amongst a number of sides, plenty of competition in the backrow but less so in areas like front row, eight and flyhalf...
These are areas i think England will be very strong in over the next year or two.
Front Row - Marler, Corbs, Vunipola, Cole, Wilson
No.8 - Morgan & Billy Vunipola
FH - Farrell & Freddie Burns
Geordie- Posts : 28516
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Dagg, Conrad Smith, Carter, Read, McCaw.
Some more borderline ones like Nonu, Whitelock, Mealamu but I'll stick with the first list.
I'd have Nonu, Whitelock and Franks all in there
Bathite- Posts : 8468
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
You're probably right but I didn't want to get greedy. He doesn't have a good rep outside of NZ but I think Jane wouldn't be out of sorts in that group. It's going to be interesting to see how he fits in after he comes back from injury. Ben Smith is in some rich form but I guess to be world class you need to consistently show it and he hasn't played enough yet.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Is this based on current or past form/glories?
Scrumpy- Posts : 4217
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
I would hazard a guess 'are' is in reference to your team's current situation. Not sure if injured players can be considered though...
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
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Scrumpy- Posts : 4217
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
I would hazard a guess if the players are world class, they might make the starting team. Sadly the days of two separate NZ teams beating all and sundry up north are over.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
Not always Kia, I'd still class many has beens based in France as world class.
Scrumpy- Posts : 4217
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Re: How Many World Class Players are there in your National team.
You can only be world class if you play for a test team. Otherwise it's just masturbation...
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