Bledisloe Cup: Match Thread

[bsando]

First topic message reminder :

Date: Saturday, August 24
Venue: Westpac Stadium, Wellington
Kick-off: 8.30am UK
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant referees:Craig Joubert (South Africa), Lourens van der Merwe (South Africa)
TMO: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

New Zealand

15 Israel Dagg, 14 Ben Smith, 13 Conrad Smith, 12 Ma'a Nonu, 11 Julian Savea, 10 Tom Taylor, 9 Aaron Smith, 8 Kieran Read, 7 Richie McCaw (capt), 6 Steven Luatua, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Brodie Retallick, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Andrew Hore, 1 Tony Woodcock.
Replacements: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Wyatt Crockett, 18 Charlie Faumuina, 19 Jeremy Thrush, 20 Sam Cane, 21 Tawera Kerr-Barlow, 22 Colin Slade, 23 Charles Piutau.

Australia

1. James Slipper (Queensland Reds), 2. Stephen Moore (ACT Brumbies), 3. Ben Alexander (ACT Brumbies), 4. Rob Simmons (Queensland Reds), 5. James Horwill (c - Queensland Reds), 6. Scott Fardy (ACT Brumbies), 7. Michael Hooper (NSW Waratahs), 8. Ben Mowen (ACT Brumbies), 9. Will Genia (vc - Queensland Reds), 10. Matt Toomua (ACT Brumbies), 11. James O’Connor (Melbourne Rebels), 12. Christian Leali’ifano (ACT Brumbies), 13. Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW Waratahs), 14. Israel Folau (NSW Waratahs), 15. Jesse Mogg (ACT Brumbies)

Replacements
16. Saia Fainga’a (Queensland Reds), 17. Scott Sio (ACT Brumbies), 18. Sekope Kepu (NSW Waratahs), 19. Kane Douglas (NSW Waratahs), 20. Liam Gill (Queensland Reds), 21. Nic White (ACT Brumbies), 22. Quade Cooper (Queensland Reds), 23. Tevita Kuridrani (ACT Brumbies)

[Taylorman]

Cruden didnt perform the basics and Toomua had a good debut?...geez I must have been watching a different game.

Within perspective, Toomua was thrown to the wolves with a quality but ultimately different Red inside him, and a very inexperienced 12, with debutants in the pack and missing key breakdown players. On the other hand Cruden had an armchair ride and his tactical kicking was poor, restarts wern't high enough and miscalculated, deep kicks were average, and his bombs were constantly too long. Cruden is a superb talent full of potential but he doesn't have that air of security around him, luckily Australia and South Africa are in poor places right now, and there is little challenge to the armchair ride he has received so far.

Since when are 'basics' defined in test rugby as 'kicks' which are all you have highlighted here. The 'basics' were his running of the backline, his deft passing, his pressure on the Oz backline evidenced by his charge down and try on Lilo. He was also awarded man of the match because of a supreme display in the 10 jersey and backed up by the general public and journos world wide so I'm to limit his effort due to his tactical kicking is hardly balanced. Oh and speaking of kicking he also neared a 100% record with goals, the only misses sideline ones that both hit the posts.

'Toomua had a good debut' is supported by:-

-the lack of whatever was missing in all the players around him
-being thrown to the wolves-

nothing to do with what he actually did on field - is that about performance?

It was mixed at best, and not one that gives any confidence for the next one in that he's just as likely to 'freeze' in NZ.

They need a 10 that will move the backline- Toomua showed nothing remotely in that sphere.

Ewen Mac's likely to revert to type with Cooper- who at least managed a wide pass to set the try up- the only saving grace for Toomua being that Cooper might be booed off the field by a certain stupid group of kiw's here and perhaps affect his game, and the team. But Toomua's re-selection wont be taken lightly for Wellington.

[nganboy]

The talk about the No.9 jersey before this game was that TJ Perenara should be starting ahead of Smith.

No not yet. I'm a Perenara fan but he's 2nd, 3rd or 4th in the pecking order still.
Next year mate.

[Taylorman]

Yes Smith played very well. His Highlanders form was so poor earlier I thought he'd lost it but he's certainly added some short sniping to his game and his pass is getting crisper by the minute. With TJP, Cruden, now Luatua as backups we're starting to get that second xv look we had in 04/05 when we could field two separtae winning sides.

[butterfingers]

Taylorman

I can totally understand the loyalty shown toward Cruden, and I didn't mean to say that he was no good, he is an excellent player, and not many 10's in world rugby would keep him out of a team. I just meant that Australia were awarded posession, territory and points from his tactical, under no pressure kicking alone, and you don't get those types of mistakes from Carter. How you think restarts, defensive and offensive kicking isn't the staple of a 10 i'm not sure, in the same way scrummaging isn't a props staple, and speed isn't a wingers?

Toomua did little wrong, he was solid enough defencively, he shuffled ball on to the 'ball player' lilo, and kicked pretty decently for a debutant. You don't seem to remember Cruden has made his deboo in 2010, and has had 3 seasons of super/AB inclusion, Toomua met the squad a few days ago, is playing with many debutants and players with very few caps, off the back of 1 super campaign.

I'm not saying that the players are of even ability, Cruden is the far superior player, but with his experience, and capabilities far more is expected from him, and thats without considering the huge difference in experience and quality of players around them!

[Taylorman]

Carter has made a truckload of mistakes, hes just forgiven them more easily as un carter like. Hes constantly charged down and has given tries away doing it, Cruden doing so this year in exactly the same way as he did to lilo, and has given his fair share of intercept passes leading to tries at the other end. He was also outplayed by Cruden in the sxv knockout so there is a shift in the thinking that DC is clearly the number one 10.

My point is only one of the two will be better than they have ever been as an AB and that isnt Carter, and Carter has also chosen the very worst times to get injured- both world cups at the key knockout points, both times others he'd kept on the sidelines, or even whitebaiting, had to try and recuperate his absence.

And now hes fallen yet again at a critical time of the year. As good as he is, hes no longer consistent due to injury, and more recently his form has been one of inconsistency.

And its now 2013...not 2005. Heres a good one..

http://www.rugby365.com/article/54094-chiefs-outlast-crusaders

"Man of the Match: So many of the Chiefs were so energetic, but our award goes to Chiefs flyhalf Aaron Cruden, who outperformed his more illustrious compatriot Dan Carter"

Unfortunately (though fortunately for kiwis) Cruden doesnt get to challenge DC at the test level so sxv is the next best.

What Toomua did wrong was to be predictable. He simply passed the ball to Lilo everytime...like clockwork. The ABs managed to shut both he, lilo and the outside backs down because of that, and if we're honest, Oz only chance in that test was to unleash the back 3, the only combo that looked remotely like matching the ABs on paper. As it was, Folau saw no ball, JOC ran around like a headless chook, and Mogg was simply out of his depth. You might think that that would be described as a good debut, I wouldnt. Nothings good about being ineffective, regardless of who youre playing with or against.

[Biltong]

Sorry, but the fact that a flyhalf gives possession away happens to even the best.

The fact is there are times in a match where the best of the best will kick a ball that does go to hand of the opposition.

I have never seen any fly half that is so good at tactical kicking that every kick works.

It is humanly impossible.

[disneychilly]

TM mate you can't budget for injury nor criticise someone for being injury prone. DC is first pick every time for mine. Sure he's been injured in the last three world cups, but it's not anything he's doing specifically just bad luck. Not quite a fast bowler that needs to change his action after a back stress fracture.

How would Shag look if he fronted the media by saying " uh yeah we've dropped DC, we all agree that he's the best ever 10 but we think he'll get injured again so don't want to take the risk".

IMO it's a way bigger risk not picking him. Especially since he was playing damn well this year and was shading Cruden for consistency up to the semi.

They've both got their pros and cons-I'm just happy both play for us.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Cruden always seems to break down injured as well TMAN. He hasn't played nearly as many tests so his breakdown rate must be far higher.

[Taylorman]

yeah all I'm saying is theres going to be a shift away from DC at some point and its just a matter of time. Crudens also had his fair share of injury and it seems to go with the territory. I'm fine with either on the field and this week we may have neither, nor even Barrett. Good thing is lately we've been able to blood more onfield 10 experience than previously, yet now we may have o dig deep again. Slade has had a reasonable season though is king of the injury group.

With DC I wonder if a sabbatical will serve DC well in that I don't think his injuries occur as a matter of the weight of heavy week to week playing. A year off means a lot more to McCaw than it would DC, who could come back and pull up in training in the first week. In such a key position we need the on field experience and DC has had the effect of denying this for a long time now, with players like Evans giving up the chase altogether.

The chances of DC getting injured throughout the next world cup must be considered high so between now and then it would perhaps be wise to play other 10's even when a 100% fit DC is available, if even to ensure continuity is maintained.

[yappysnap]

Just out of interest which Haka was used against the Ozzies, was it the one the AB's save for their respected opposition or the standard one?

[Taylorman]

ka mate, the usual one. Think theyve been using Kapo o pango a bit too much recently and should use it more sparingly. Thought they might use it due to ewen macs first test but then you could find any reason to bring it out. Don't think its such a big thing these days.

[Guest]

Yeah, ka mate all the way. Luke Romano performed a hybrid haka in the weekend, did the throat slit from kapo o pango to finish, hard case.

Another thing, I was feeling a bit bad for Oz after the Lions series. But then, in the lead up to the game in the weekend, skytv showed highlights of Gregan knocking the ball out of Wilson's hand as he dove for the line (multiple times!!!). That was very painful to watch. Didn't feel bad for Oz after that and I'm gonna cherish this stranglehold we have over them for as long as we do.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Too right ebop. Be careful what you wish for. I don't want to go back to sideline conversions from Eales in the dying minutes of the game. We seem to have the luck at the moment and we're going to milk it for all its worth.

[ChequeredJersey]

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/20/wallabies-video-analysis-perception-versus-reality/

[Guest]

Bang on Kia, they showed that Eels conversion as well for good measure. Man he was annoying, true gent though. But, to balance all this they did show Lomu steam rolling over a poor Oz player. Brought a smile back to my face.

[Guest]

Holy smokes, Cruden and Barrett out, shades of 2011

[blackcanelion]

Slade will probably start with Tom Taylor in the reserves. Taylor's got a better kicking % but has played this season at 2nd 5 + he's uncapped. Luke Whitelock's into the reserves. Need to find a few mor Smith's for the backline.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Romano out for the RC is a much bigger concern. Our lock stocks have two smoking barrels and a Thrush.

[yappysnap]

Doesn't Slade breakdown whenever he pulls on the black jersey?

[wales606]

Doesn't Slade breakdown whenever he pulls on the black jersey?

At least he isn't Stephen Donald.

[Taylorman]

Likely Tom Taylor will star given he trained at 10 mostly.

[Guest]

Am I right in saying that Tom is more steady than spectacular? He's a deadeye d1ck with the boot though. Hope he does well and pretty neat that his dad was an AB.

[disneychilly]

Donald was perfect for NZ in that final. We didn't have the ball. Beaver is absolutely world class as a defensive 10. The French would have made serious inroads up his channel if he were not such a big physical 10.

Glad to see Taylor given a crack. Think Slade has had his day.

[nganboy]

Well at least we can say we are giving the young fellas a run. People keep on going on about the oldies in the team, but assuming Coles plays half the team are newbies.
1 old
2 young
3 experienced but young
4 experienced but young
5 young
6 young
7old
8 old
9 young
10 young
11 young
12 old
13 old
14 new but not young
15 experienced but youngish

[Biltong]

Am I right in saying that Tom is more steady than spectacular? He's a deadeye d1ck with the boot though. Hope he does well and pretty neat that his dad was an AB.

steady is good enough, you have plenty of talented backs

[kiakahaaotearoa]

The forwards will feel they have to put in an extra effort to help out Taylor. That's not a bad thing. The Aussies will be marking Ben Smith tightly so I predict local boy Savea will shine and Dagg will have a bigger say on attack.

[Taylorman]

Yes they'll crowd around Taylor and support him but as Ali said on Reunion the best support taylor can get is for everyone to first do their own jobs and let Taylor do his. They can't play his game for him but they can provide more time and space around him as they would any other 10.

If he's in the true Warrick Taylor mould he'll be the typical Cantabrian...super reliable, busy, committed without being flashy (Like that Kia?!) and just get on with it. He'll be fine. The added pressure of kicking the goals is a bit of an extra and once again DC's presence in the Crusaders as 10 and kicker has again stunted the development of yet another player, but we can't dwell on that, part of the game...

[ChequeredJersey]

Yes they'll crowd around Taylor and support him but as Ali said on Reunion the best support taylor can get is for everyone to first do their own jobs and let Taylor do his. They can't play his game for him but they can provide more time and space around him as they would any other 10.

If he's in the true Warrick Taylor mould he'll be the typical Cantabrian...super reliable, busy, committed without being flashy (Like that Kia?!) and just get on with it. He'll be fine. The added pressure of kicking the goals is a bit of an extra and once again DC's presence in the Crusaders as 10 and kicker has again stunted the development of yet another player, but we can't dwell on that, part of the game...

Yeah, don't you hate it when your players are just too good?

[Taylorman]

Perhaps, and its probably the reason they'll go for Slade- 10 odd tests and at least he played the matches out with the Highlanders so has had field time. Taylor has hardly played 10 anywhere so not sure why he ran the large part of the training there- maybe its that bad he needed that to be able to even run on as sub...

agree chequered..its just terrible...maybe when Benji's here we'll be able to bat to 7 or 8 at 10? just terrible...but on our last 3 cups we'll probably need to...

[kiakahaaotearoa]

If he's from Canterbury Tman he'll deliver. I say bung Taylor in and then wonder what all the fuss about Cruden was.  

[Taylorman]

Ali Williams comments on Reunion this week:

On the new scrum:..."now we've got a bloke in a pink jersey yelling Not straight all the time"...

On booing Cooper:..."If you pay that much money for a ticket youre allowed to boo"

On being asked if McCaws the type they follow:..." You can't do anything but follow him...anyone who leads the way like that you've no choice but too follow him"

[aucklandlaurie]

If he's from Canterbury Tman he'll deliver. I say bung Taylor in and then wonder what all the fuss about Cruden was.  

Canterbury Tayls.

[blackcanelion]

Yes they'll crowd around Taylor and support him but as Ali said on Reunion the best support taylor can get is for everyone to first do their own jobs and let Taylor do his. They can't play his game for him but they can provide more time and space around him as they would any other 10.

If he's in the true Warrick Taylor mould he'll be the typical Cantabrian...super reliable, busy, committed without being flashy (Like that Kia?!) and just get on with it. He'll be fine. The added pressure of kicking the goals is a bit of an extra and once again DC's presence in the Crusaders as 10 and kicker has again stunted the development of yet another player, but we can't dwell on that, part of the game...

Yeah, don't you hate it when your players are just too good?

He'll be from outside the province then, bought in by $$.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Doesn't matter where they're from. Once they experience that Canterbury environment they become better people as well as better players.

[yappysnap]

Ali Williams comments on Reunion this week:

On the new scrum:..."now we've got a bloke in a pink jersey yelling Not straight all the time"...

On booing Cooper:..."If you pay that much money for a ticket youre allowed to boo"

On being asked if McCaws the type they follow:..." You can't do anything but follow him...anyone who leads the way like that you've no choice but too follow him"

So he has nothing useful to add then?

1. Not straights been complained about for years, now it's changed and he's the only person to start complaining that it is being called, and he's not even a 9!

2. Again everyone else seems to be sick of this behaviour, various current AB's have come out asking for it to stop and as a neutral I can say it's pretty pathetic to here.

3. Yawn. Was he reading that cliche off a script or did he manage to think of it himself?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

If you feel that strongly about his comments yappy my advice is never listen to a player's comments before he heads off to the sheds at halftime.  

[disneychilly]

Some excellent discussion on the Wallabies' attack and suggestions here:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/08/22/video-analysis-elements-of-wallabies-attack-plan/

Now now Kia, take those red and black blinkers off. You don't have to be from Canterbury to be a good person

[kiakahaaotearoa]

No you don't Disney. But you do have to have been there to be a better person.  

[debaters1]

I didn't see anyone post it above but apologies if alrewady answered but given Mealamu isn't in the 23, who will lead the Haka? Will it be kapa o pongo?

[GloriousEmpire]

Tom Taylor has written a new Haka I hear, which he will lead. And he's redesigned a new All Blacks kit for the occasion. 

He'll also be popping up to the box at half time to do the analysis and hosting a soirée for journalists after the match.

[Taylorman]

lets hope he does the run off the field interview at half time as well ay? ...just for Kia! 

[Guest]

Tom Taylor is shaping up to be the best thing since sliced bread.

[GloriousEmpire]

Tom Taylor makes a top artesian loaf.

[Taylorman]

Tom Taylor...sounds like a Dickens character...head of the soup kitchen...or the cheeky little chimney sweep that stole the bread every night...

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