Should Argentina be Thrown Out of The Rugby Championship?

Laser pointers, biting, gouging...

If these latest acts if "skulduggery" as the Herald calls them turn out to be true then in my opinion Argentina should be kicked from the competition until their union can control the players and fans.

Perhaps the transition from rugby wilderness to the top table of rugby is too great a jump?

These things are not "skulduggery" they are violent acts of assault and have no place in rugby.

Teams that perpetrate them have no place in rugby either.

Perhaps they should be isolated or sent into a competition where these things are apparently acceptable, and forced to play in a series with France.

Probably pays for us to go a bit gentle on this one.

There are a number of places around the World that dont really have an issue with eye gouging, ripping into the scrotum or biting, whereas we find it wrong.

On the other hand some people from other parts of the World think that a tackle where someone gets slightly tipped off the perpendicular, is the worst crime against mankind, and is right up there with attempted murder.

 In so far as the lasers are concerned I thought after the Harris and Cruden incidents that SANZAR was going to sort it with Argentina....I just cant remember whether they did or not.

We have to look at the pros and cons.

The pros are the development of Argentinian rugby into a global superpower and the ability for SH sides to hold the top 5 places (realistically). The extra revenue to SANZAR from a wider audience.

The cons are the potential for permanent injury to the majority of world class players perpetrated by internationals who unfortunately learn the darker arts if their trade in NH club rugby. Also Argentinas inclusion threatens the reputation if the rugby championship as the worlds preeminent rugby tournament,
Both through questionable skill levels and questionable tactics. With Australia's decline and SA reliance on dour single minded tactics this is reputation is already under threat.

Thuggery occurs when ambition outstrips talent. Perhaps the "third way" is to have these Argentinian players integrated into super rugby where their talents can be enhanced to match their ambitions?

No they shouldn't.

firstly consider the fact that they are the only top ten nation in the Americas, there simply is no tournament in the Americas that can help Argentina become better.

The only real option for them is the SANZAR relationship.

Remember they are fighting tooth and nail to get respect against the top three sides in the world, now admittedly this time they may have taken the niggle a bit too far.

Just remember nothing has been adjudicated yet, and again even if the players involved in the citings are found guilty you can't punish Argentina for the actions of one or two players.

They bring a different kind of challenge to Sa, OZ and NZ, yes they can be woeful at times, but pumped up they will soon beat a SH giant.

Dont think they'll be chucked out of the Rugby Championship, if Steve Tew is thinking of getting them involved in Super Rugby. heres an article (even though not much of one) from The Guardian.


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/aug/27/super-rugby-expansion-argentina-japan

Also Argentinas inclusion threatens the reputation if the rugby championship as the worlds preeminent rugby tournament,

But its not...the 6n is the worlds preeminent rugby tournament... 

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Also Argentinas inclusion threatens the reputation if the rugby championship as the worlds preeminent rugby tournament,

But its not...the 6n is the worlds preeminent rugby tournament... 

 

Biltong wrote:No they shouldn't.

firstly consider the fact that they are the only top ten nation in the Americas, there simply is no tournament in the Americas that can help Argentina become better.

The only real option for them is the SANZAR relationship.

Remember they are fighting tooth and nail to get respect against the top three sides in the world, now admittedly this time they may have taken the niggle a bit too far.

Just remember nothing has been adjudicated yet, and again even if the players involved in the citings are found guilty you can't punish Argentina for the actions of one or two players.

They bring a different kind of challenge to Sa, OZ and NZ, yes they can be woeful at times, but pumped up they will soon beat a SH giant.

Nice

Actually it's not the top three sides in the world. Unless your sense of SANZAR fraternity runs to losing the game to Australia so they can reclaim the third spot from England, BB?  

Argentina probably feel at this point in time that the cynical, negative tactics are the best ways to combat the other three sides. However, they've been at their most dangerous in this championship when they've built on their set piece and shown a willingness to attack the gain line and look to offload in the tackle. The first try in Argentina against NZ was a prime example of that. It was an absolute doozy. The problem was that score brought out the best in the NZ team and we played our best ever game away in Argentina that I could recall.

Argentina have shown in their home games against SA that they can spoil opposition ball and stay in the game. But they have proven that they don't have the endurance to last the whole 80 minutes employing those tactics and to close out games against this kind of opposition, you need to bring something more to the table. That endurance base would be greatly improved if they could get teams in the Super tournament. The more times they get experience at that rhythm of rugby, the better. France has shown in recent times it is no longer possible to consistently challenge with a robust defence and slowing down of opposition ball. You need to chance your arm more at the opportune moments much like Italy have shown in their recent victories against France.

Chjw131 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Also Argentinas inclusion threatens the reputation if the rugby championship as the worlds preeminent rugby tournament,

But its not...the 6n is the worlds preeminent rugby tournament... 

 

+2.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Probably pays for us to go a bit gentle on this one.

There are a number of places around the World that dont really have an issue with eye gouging, ripping into the scrotum or biting, whereas we find it wrong.

On the other hand some people from other parts of the World think that a tackle where someone gets slightly tipped off the perpendicular, is the worst crime against mankind, and is right up there with attempted murder.

 In so far as the lasers are concerned I thought after the Harris and Cruden incidents that SANZAR was going to sort it with Argentina....I just cant remember whether they did or not.

 Thumbs up for spear tackling by New Zealand players. Yay. Umaga and Mealamu are heroes in New Zealand.

You who think spear tackling is fine want Argentina thrown out? 

Of course Argentina shouldn't be thrown out.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
On the other hand some people from other parts of the World think that a tackle where someone gets slightly tipped off the perpendicular, is the worst crime against mankind, and is right up there with attempted murder.

That's what Allain Rolland thinks.

Id sooner ban South Africa for not doing away with Vuvuzelas at their matches. Being subjected to the constant hum during SA matches is about as much fun as getting a tooth drilled.

Nope, a tooth getting drilled is painful, a vuvuzela is African music of the highest order.  

Depends on whose tooth is getting drilled. If it were Bruce, it'd be music to your ears BB.  

True, but then if I had old bruce in my presence and a drilling machine I can promise you I wouldn't be using a 1 mm drill bit, it would most likely be the biggest concrete drill available, and it won't be going into his mouth.

 

I knew this love affair with Bruce was getting unhealthy but I didn't realise by how much.  

He is my man.  

Give Argentina their due... with a lot of internal difficulties with all of their players playing abroad and significant injuries they took the boks to the wire... outside of NZ in addition I don't think any other side in world rugby would have come away with a victory in their last game.

As a reference it took France something stupid like 30 years (may be totally wrong there) to notch their first win of the then 5 nations. Italy themselves didn't win a game for a few seasons as well and still haven't beaten the only top 3 side in the 6N's.

As to the dodgy stuff, its Argentina, I thought they already had a pretty good rep for that kind of play. Without making sweeping statements their players from the T14 won't be helping matters either.

Glorious, if you were to be as harsh with every country that has a player associated with it that has crossed one of the major lines in the game, they'd be very few Teams to play Int rugby.

As for the laser pointers, by no means isolated to Argentina at all. i have seen such activity in several countries across a range of sports. it is a very passive act by the 'fan' that can have very serious consequences for his/her victim but to punish the Argentinian playering fraterity is so outlanish it really does not warrent comment. Threaten a fine and the not so flush Argentian Union should be able to quell the issue. Broadcasters can be really helpful here by tracking the line of any lasers picked up back to the fans in question.

Also, Laurie, you rascal, a certain tackle in 2005 was a little more than merely a touch beyond the horizontal! But sure its all cool now, as Tana and Brian have been married/civil unioned for some time now! :p

If teams were thrown out of competitions because of serious foul play we would have no teams in the top competitions.

I think GE is more annoyed at having to include them. I am suprised it wasn't suggested that they would be more fit for the 6N with the style of play.

I was really suprised last year at their running game but with injuries they have reverted back. It is hard to be made look stupid when the running game is almost there. Italy have struck to the running game but at times get nothing for it.

Sounds like with a few objections we all agree. Right, to silence those doubts (particularly BT) I'm not asking if you think they'll be banned, just if they should be. I don't care if they're the only Martian representative team let alone South American. Gouging and biting and spitting is unacceptable and I can't believe those who are saying we should turn a blind eye just because they are Catholics.

It would be good to get Argie fan's views on this.  

I wonder where he is?

GloriousEmpire wrote:We have to look at the pros and cons.

The pros are the development of Argentinian rugby into a global superpower and the ability for SH sides to hold the top 5 places (realistically). The extra revenue to SANZAR from a wider audience.

The cons are the potential for permanent injury to the majority of world class players perpetrated by internationals who unfortunately learn the darker arts if their trade in NH club rugby. Also Argentinas inclusion in the rugby championship, in no way threatens the reputation if the 6 Nations as the worlds preeminent rugby tournament.

Both through questionable skill levels and questionable tactics. With Australia's decline, SA reliance on dour single minded tactics and the IRB giving the ABs special dispensation to flop into the channel off their feet, kill the ball & then play off the floor at every opportunity, the championships reputation as the 2nd best competition has been confirmed.

Thuggery occurs when ambition outstrips talent. Perhaps the "third way" is to have these Argentinian players integrated into super rugby where their talents can be enhanced to match their ambitions?

Corrected that for you.

Hilarious. I live the "fixed it for you" genre.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Hilarious. I live love the "fixed it for you" genre.

Fixed that for you    

So now that the gouging was cleared what would GE like to say.

Etzebeth contravened one of the laws too. He should have been cited.

The Saint wrote:Etzebeth contravened one of the laws too. He should have been cited.

The did say in the judiciary that the grip Etzebeth had on the player could have been the contributing factor to the bite.

However when Etzebeth got hold of the player in the first instance he was not in an upright position, so it would have been rather impossible for Etzebeth not to hold him higher up.

The point is, a bite is not good and will you get in trouble every time.

I am sorry to heat the guy got a ban because now it makes things easier for OZ and NZ and tougher for Argentina, but on the other hand, the fact that the judiciary has found the player guilty proves that our complaints of off the ball stuff was ligit.

But his retaliation was striking a player. They should have at least cited it to be consistent.

yappysnap wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Hilarious. I live love the "fixed it for you" genre.

Fixed that for you    

I live the strike word out, change word genre.

If you're all being pinnickity, It's not SANZAR, it's $ANZAR.

Ask BB...

GE: I think P-Div has a tutu for you...it's not ballet you know

Plus: perhaps we should ban all black hookers from Wales lest they sucker punch people from behind...

All teams have their moments, every single one. Which team should I pick on to illustrate this...mmm, actually, I won't because that'd be hypocritical.

Actually, have Scotland done anything dirty in the last 5 years, maybe they need more mongrel?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:If you're all being pinnickity, It's not SANZAR, it's $ANZAR.

Ask BB...

Very subtle, but very good Portnoy.

I will be using that in future.  

As opposed to the R£U ?