Argentina to Win the Rugby Championship?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 31 May 2019, 10:22 am

Something seems to be brewing in Argentina. The Jaguares are currently top of their conference in Super Rugby with 8 wins from 13 games including some good wins away in SA, NZ and Aus. They are 2nd in the overall standings with a real chance of hosting a quarter final in Argentina for the first time ever. Their form is definitely peaking given that most of their five losses came at the start of the season and they have won 6 of their last 7 games, a narrow loss away to the highlanders being their one recent loss.

Given that New Zealand have a recent habit of not winning the Rugby Championship held in a world cup year (Australia won the last two) is it Argentina's chance to shine being the form super rugby side? The form guide would probably suggest that this years championship is more than likely going to be one of the more hotly contested championships in recent memory so why not Argentina? I suspect their super rugby form will give them renewed belief that they can challenge the other SANZAAR sides and away wins might help them achieve some consistency on the road.

You also know you are good when people like Phil Kearns start to complain about the Jaguares basically being an international side. Kearns also fears that this gives them a huge advantage at the RWC, does it? Probably.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/113139439/jaguares-coach-gonzalo-quesada-hits-back-at-phil-kearns-comments-on-super-rugby-inclusion

SA who claimed a good away win in NZ and who are probably moving in the right direction despite a desperate win loss ratio for 2018 will probably be contenders too albeit more than likely without captain Kolisi who has picked up a fairly serious injury. New Zealand of course are almost always favorites have picked up a few losses in recent years and have some selection quandaries. Who to pick in the back row, is Aaron Smith still their number one guy at 9 and who is Barrett's back up? This particular debate may have gained another dimension as the talented but still relatively inexperienced Mo'unga is subject to some controversy following a recent tour to SA. As usual Australia appear to be a sinking ship which probably means they will be contenders for everything.

Anyway long story short, I knows its still a couple of months out but I would like to call on our resident Kiwis to provide their expert opinions and anyone else why enjoys the rugby championship to chime in and declare who do you think will come 1st to last in this years championship and why? Will it be Los Pumas time to shine?

Go raibh mile maith agaibh.
Is mise le meas,
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Post by ebop on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:36 pm

Kearns is a kn0b. And Ireland are bound to flop in the RWC, again. Unrelated but worthwhile stating. SANZAR teams will fall over themselves to not win the RC so the Jaguares may win this year. Maybe kinda like how England threw the 6Ns.


Unnecessary dig, wum, whatever you wish to call it. 


Last edited by LondonTiger on Fri 31 May 2019, 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Mod warning)
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 31 May 2019, 1:58 pm

ebop wrote:Kearns is a kn0b. And Ireland are bound to flop in the RWC, again. Unrelated but worthwhile stating. SANZAR teams will fall over themselves to not win the RC so the Jaguares may win this year. Maybe kinda like how England threw the 6Ns.

Squeezed a lot of unrelated stuff in there but yeah I think this is Argentina's best shot at the title. Kearns is a pot stirrer but he may have a point but would Super Rugby even allow Argentina have a second team?

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Post by Pete330v2 on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:34 pm

Argentina always seem to be able to prepare for and peak during the RWC. Their overachieving and Ireland flopping are 2 RWC staples after all so why not this year? Why not indeed.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:41 pm

They need to start getting wins v NZ to contend and they really need to cut out the stupid mistakes. That loss at home v Australia last year was a spectacular capitulation.

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Post by ebop on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:48 pm

They’re probably still treated as underdogs by referees. A bit like Scotland when Joubert stiffed them in 2015. It’s a thing that underdogs get stiffed. The Pumas are France on steroids. France ‘had’ this reputation but the Pumas have potential to be more than what France apparently represented before they disappeared up their own bung hole. Fear the Pumas.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:55 pm

They definitely are in the rugby championship in my view.

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Post by ebop on Fri 31 May 2019, 3:00 pm

Yeah of course, can’t underestimate the Pumas. Probably won’t win the RC though.
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Post by ebop on Fri 31 May 2019, 3:05 pm

Guns, has Sexton picked his lip up off the ground yet since the 6Ns? Does he seem happier with himself or is he still angst ridden? It’s interesting comparing a tortured soul like that with the free spirited kiwi duo of Barrett and Mo’unga. Those guys literally do not give 2fooks and take things in their stride. Sexton on the other hand seems a dour character with limited zest and do you think it hampers him in the big games?
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 31 May 2019, 3:37 pm

No not really. I dont think he would have had the career he has had if his personality was holding him back. It may even be an advandage. I expect you are right about Barrett (although he isnt completely unflappable) but I get the sense watching Mo'unga that nerves do affect him. He has also stated himself that he is prone to a nervous vomit prior to big games which is why Im surprised he hasnt been given more AB exposure to date.

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Post by ebop on Fri 31 May 2019, 3:44 pm

Are you sure? Sexton does have a very nervous disposition. The guy even feigned voice-loss in his WR player of the year acceptance speech. The guy is a nervous guy. Guns, you may not be aware but there are a lot of NZers saying Mo’unga should be the ABs first five. No doubt Cantabrians. Don’t agree with them myself but Mo’unga is a solid character. Cool, calm. Unlike your guy Sexton and the other guy, what’s his face, the kiwi guy.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 31 May 2019, 3:56 pm

ebop wrote:Are you sure? Sexton does have a very nervous disposition. The guy even feigned voice-loss in his WR player of the year acceptance speech. The guy is a nervous guy. Guns, you may not be aware but there are a lot of NZers saying Mo’unga should be the ABs first five. No doubt Cantabrians. Don’t agree with them myself but Mo’unga is a solid character. Cool, calm. Unlike your guy Sexton and the other guy, what’s his face, the kiwi guy.

A bit like Kearns barking about the Jaguares I take your concern over Sexton as a evidence of some level of insecurity on your part as an NZ fan. To be fair he has three and a half wins v NZ now which is more than any other current out half so it doesn't exactly surprise me. Though if you want to have a debate re Sexton why don't you set up an article on him?

This chat is re Argentina's chances in the RC. Cheers.

I am aware that a lot of Kiwis see Mo'unga as NZs 10 and it is hardly surprising given the Crusaders form of the last few years. They will probably complete the first ever threepeat this year which may further boost his chances. However, I don't think the Crusaders play in a fashion that is that similar to how the NZ side play and I suspect that Hansen isn't completely convinced by Mo'unga yet given that prior to his injury McKensie seemed to be being primed for the job instead.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 31 May 2019, 4:18 pm

You asked our resident kiwis for an opinion?

Reports for trolling .....

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 31 May 2019, 7:49 pm

Ahh yes a RC in a world cup year. This year theres no real advantage where last time oz got the important home matches vs NZ and SA.

This time each plays eachother once where SA and Argie play eachother twice, NZ play Oz twice.

NZ avoids a trip to SA and gets both SA and Oz at home, getting neither last time.

If Argie are to win it theyll need to beat NZ first up in Argie, and theyve yet to beat NZ.

The extra match this year evens the home vs away up and argie must travel to both SA and Oz.

An Argie win is therefore unlikely based on the ‘in a world cup year’ if anything the draw favouring NZ given we avoid going to SA, and get both SA and Oz here.

Argie could finish second.

Jaguares, if basically Argentina, losing five matches from 13 so far in Super rugby, is hardly a convincing stat for international success. Kearns comment reflects more on he than Argies chances.

But agree with ebop, it could be the NH sides that cop it ‘in a world cup year’ from Argies success.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 31 May 2019, 8:53 pm

It is a big ask to be fair but 8 wins from 13 is still enough to be second overall which is pretty good.

I expect France to lose to Argentina in their group but England will probably beat the both.

Wales and Australia in the quarters would both give Argentina a good game.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 31 May 2019, 9:09 pm

Yes seconds great compared to previous years, though an easier conference.
In a World Cup year we expect better performances from all SH sides due to the focus it brings.
Yes Argie Wales quarter from memory is the one I expect to play out.
Like 2015, a potential 6N winner vs a RC last.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 01 Jun 2019, 4:01 pm

Conference system is flawed. Without it the NZ franchises are likely to make up the top 6.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder on Sat 01 Jun 2019, 6:03 pm

That would be hugely impressive.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 01 Jun 2019, 7:57 pm

Yes NZ sides all play eachother twice, no one else has to do that vs NZ sides. Its made our sides stronger though, ABs as well so although stronger sides might not make the playoffs, the ‘flaw’ is outweighed by higher quality players across the five sides.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 10:30 am

Interesting that the Jaguares get to their first ever super rugby quarter final v the Chiefs and Glen Jackson is appointed as ref. Hmmm, that's a bit fishy, no?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 2:52 pm

He’s an awful ref. Did Ireland huge favours in their 2018 match against Wales.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 4:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:He’s an awful ref. Did Ireland huge favours in their 2018 match against Wales.

Whether he did or not it will never make amends fore the many torturous Ireland v Wales games that Barnes has reffed.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 7:48 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:He’s an awful ref. Did Ireland huge favours in their 2018 match against Wales.

Whether he did or not it will never make amends fore the many torturous Ireland v Wales games that Barnes has reffed.

Barnes is great. Get over it. We did. In fact so well we haven’t lost a World Cup match since. Instead of crying about it as you are, our side became the best side in history as a result. You should try it. Good things can come from bad if you have the character.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 7:55 pm

In fact I’d be more concerned about Argie if I were England or France. And then Wales or Oz.

Argie won’t win the RC with NZ playing Oz and SA at home. Nope, like the rest they’ll be using the matches partially for World Cup trial matches. That is the true test of quality in today's game. The 6N and RC pale in comparison.

And history does have a habit of repeating itself.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 10:30 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:He’s an awful ref. Did Ireland huge favours in their 2018 match against Wales.

Whether he did or not it will never make amends fore the many torturous Ireland v Wales games that Barnes has reffed.

Barnes is great. Get over it. We did. In fact so well we haven’t lost a World Cup match since. Instead of crying about it as you are, our side became the best side in history as a result. You should try it. Good things can come from bad if you have the character.

I think after Ireland’s season a year ago where everything was golden to six nations and beyond there will be a great deal of soul searching they will come out a better team than they showed last six nations.

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Post by Cyril on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 10:45 pm

‘best side in history’ is pushing it a little Smile

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 10:58 pm

Cyril wrote:‘best side in history’ is pushing it a little Smile

Who is then Cyril? Offer a counter opinion not just a criticism of another poster

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 11:10 pm

Cyril wrote:‘best side in history’ is pushing it a little Smile

Oh statistically speaking only of course.
Between 2008 and now there’s a winning percentage of 86.8% with 131 wins from 151 wins.
Two world cups in that period with no losses in the tourney since, remaining at no.1 since 2010.
I doubt there is a team in test history over that length of time, number of tests, no. of wcup wins and ranking, including the ABs themselves, with that record.

So yeah, statistically speaking.
Barnes is possibly the best thing that’s ever happened to AB rugby. Whistle

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Post by Cyril on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 11:11 pm

Oh, come on. It was a silly remark by mikey. How, in all seriousness, is this Welsh side the ‘best side in history’?

Unless he means the best Welsh side in history. In which case, he’s also wrong. Or too young. Or doesn’t have access to YouTube or books.

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Post by Cyril on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 11:15 pm

Taylor, you’re using history and stats. Mikey has FACTS. It’s only been 3 generations since Wales beat you. They’re due a win. Give ‘em a break Wink

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 11:45 pm

Where the hell did I say the welsh side is the best in history? As far as I can see nobody has said that...

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Post by Cyril on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 11:47 pm

Fair enough, mikey if you said they were the best Welsh team in history. Even so, that’s arguable. Best wins on the trot, yes. Better than the 70s side?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 20 Jun 2019, 11:53 pm

But I didn’t Cyril that was my point.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 12:20 am

So, they’re the best current Welsh side? Weird, but thumbsup

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 12:47 am

Cyril wrote:Taylor, you’re using history and stats. Mikey has FACTS. It’s only been 3 generations since Wales beat you. They’re due a win. Give ‘em a break Wink

How long is a generation then? censored

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 12:48 am

Cyril wrote:So, they’re the best current Welsh side? Weird, but thumbsup

They're great. 6N champs. Doesnt get better than that surely! thumbsup

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Post by Cyril on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 12:57 am

Beating NZ home and away is the benchmark. It’s been a while since an NH side did that.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 1:09 am

Cyril wrote:So, they’re the best current Welsh side? Weird, but thumbsup

Cyril are you currently taking something that isn’t good for brain cells? Nobody in this thread talked about Wales apart from mention that they could face Argentina in the QF. The thread is regarding Argentina and the RC. You’ve completely lost everybody by continuously replying to a comment that I never typed.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 1:36 am

I honestly give up. Holy moly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 6:01 am

You appear to have read Taylor's response as mikeys there Cyril.no one is claiming Wales are great.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 6:19 am

It’s there for all to see further up. Though both sentences make little sense so maybe he meant something completely different?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 6:32 am

Taylor does. You can argue that NZ at that point weren't the greatest side in history and that side is actually 2 pr 3 sides when you consider the achievements mentioned span a huge period of time sport wise. I personally am not old enough to have seen any side before the early 90s properly. Don't watch rugby before the mid 00s either so I cant even get into arguing for that England side. I think from what I've read and seen they're easily in the category to discuss that argument though.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 10:12 am

Cyril wrote:It’s there for all to see further up. Though both sentences make little sense so maybe he meant something completely different?
I'll confess I scrolled up and can't see what you are referencing. Can you quote it?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 21 Jun 2019, 10:17 am

Looking forward to the Jaguares v Chiefs game tomorrow. A quarter final win would be good progression for Argentinian rugby and if they can maintain their focus and discipline I reckon they have superior players to the chiefs.

Could be an interesting year for Argentina.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 22 Jun 2019, 12:48 am

VAMOS JAGUARES!!!!

Great win Jaguares. Semi final awaits. 10 wins from the last 11 games.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 22 Jun 2019, 1:03 am

That was a tense match. I thought the Chiefs were going to sneak it but the Jaguares just threw everything at them in defence.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat 22 Jun 2019, 2:50 am

Jaguares too good overall. Chiefs managed a lot of dropsies but the last twenty was Jaguares, aka los Pumas b+ side, managed the Chiefs out of the game, not ceding anything. Great for Argentina and SH rugby that it has its first SR semi finalist, and bodes well for Japan.


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Post by Taylorman on Sun 23 Jun 2019, 1:57 am

Jaguares, Brumbies semi, Saders, Canes the other.
Likely Christchurch, B/Aries or Canberra final, in that order.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 23 Jun 2019, 7:05 am

It’s a deserved result getting this far but I would be surprised if they can get further this year

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 23 Jun 2019, 7:31 am

Who, Jaguares?
I think they’ll beat the Brumbies, if not comfortably. Should be just a matter of whether final is in Christchurch or BA. Canes have the tough but also at full strength should be up for it.

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