Tuesday qualifiers

First topic message reminder :

Macedonia vs Scotland (7:30)
Wales vs Serbia (7:45)
Ukraine vs England (7:45)
Austria vs ROI (7:45)

As a welsh man i'm not holding out for too much against Serbia. We're without joniesta and williams so it means there's even more pressure on Ramsey to pull something out the bag again. Hopefully Coleman's team selection and tactics improve and we're more positive against Serbia. If we'd gone for it we would've won in Macedonia. Fingers crossed bale get's 15 mins at least.

Tough games for England and ROI, I expect England to get a point at least or maybe sneak a win.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:too large a proportion do

What is your definition of scummy? what percentage act in that way? what percentage of foreign fans act in that way?

who said anything about foreign fans? why do you always have to bring race into things? #issues

race???

what?

He compared other fans from other nations- a very valid point. You are the only one that has brought race into it.

'foreign' = race. Nobody was talking about 'foreign' fans, just scummy domestic ones. There was some banter re the Welsh but it was never an issue of 'foreign' or not.

why do you think foreign = race?

clue!

it simply does not!!

and why cant scummy fans be brought up from other nations?

Its a natural progression of a topic. Yet both are off topic anyway, both are as valid here as each other!

Nothing wrong with England fans as far as I can see. Certainly not in the last decade.
I would rather be faced with a bunch of English fans than Polish, Turkish or Ukranians.

For the record, there is no English "race".

mystiroakey wrote:why do you think foreign = race?

clue!

it simply does not!!

How does it not?

If someone hates foreigners that hate is defined by the race of its target.

Race was, quite specifically, irrelevant to my point and there was no reason to shoe-horn it in. I don't like rapists, whether there are more or less rapists in any other country has no bearing on how I think of rapists in this country, for example.

foreigners implies someone from another nation.

race is completely immaterial to nationality or the concept of foreigners. foreigners are just people from a different nation .

I am pretty certain the poster was talking about other nations fans. NOT DIFFERENT RACES of people.. You are the only one implying anything of the sort

Still not relevant to the point I was making.

So you generalised over football fans- you stated football fans were scummy and chavy.

And you expect perfect logic in reply. You ask too much dude..

Football fans in this country, as that was the topic of discussion. No interest in anything about any other country's fans, not relevant to the point I was making.

Come on mate. The vast majority of fans are just decent people. Yes the idiots shout the loudest..

Which could arguably apply to many things in life.

It's just sad there is a reason that rugby fans can be mingled where they sit and allowed to drink in the stands whereas at football they're segregated by barriers, banned from drinking and can't even drink in the same pubs or leave the ground at the same time.

Something about football brings out the worst in people.

I will just add that iv seen many English sports fans come to Cardiff over the years

Rugby League, Boxing, Motor Sports, Cricket along with quite a few others and its fair to say all the other sports they were fine and great to have in city. Even football fans supporting their club sides during the Playoffs and FA Cup Finals were great bar a few idiots

The 'Engeeeerland' national football lot though......please never come back

I remeber going to cardiff for a west ham v palace play off.

so we were all going up from the same place basically. Anyway. On the way I stopped of at the petrol station and west ham fans started getting aggressive tyowards me. I was just minding my own business with my girlfriend - but just because I had a palace shirt on they wanted to start trouble.

This years play off final v watford was a great crack. walking back to the tube was banter with watford. At the tube . Watford were on one side and palace on the other(going opposite directions

They kept singing . Your going down next season or stuff about holloway. We were singing back. It was all in very good spirits though. No aggression at all. Some may look at that as bad behaviour- but it wasn't. Just atmosphere and banter.

I did actually see trouble myself mystiroakey between rival clubs but as I say it was just petty stuff and all the club fans were generally well behaved over the years (even Millwall )

Millwall are one set off fans that I do have an issue with. However I also know a few that truly only care about the football..

They cost me in a multiplier last night as well!!

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:

super_realist wrote:Don't really like Rugby Steff. Don't really see the point in it, and too many stupid rules which ruin it.

Thats fine but why the hell would Wales who are 2 times 6N champions want to merge with England and Scotland?

Where's your World Cup?  

Here!

http://www.rwcsevens.com/men/news/newsid=2067798.html

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:too large a proportion do

What is your definition of scummy? what percentage act in that way? what percentage of foreign fans act in that way?

who said anything about foreign fans? why do you always have to bring race into things? #issues

There is no justification for all this criticism aimed at the english supporters for their bad behaviour if compared to foreign football fans the english fans are actually the best behaved fans.

So if rapists are worse/more common in Poland (example) that means rapists in England are okey dokey??

Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are!!!

It's "you're" not "your".

Whilst I agree with your point, Steffan, it's "you're" not "your".

I was trying to write it in a form of English your/you're average England football fan could understand

My English is terrible but I am Welsh and try to avoid speaking the language if I can so I have an excuse

Not sure why you put the first pic in there!

mystiroakey wrote:Not sure why you put the first pic in there!

Why? You think doing Nazi salutes abroad is ok then?

Steffan

Something tells me you're not a big fan of us English  

some have both hands up . not sure they are nazi salutes. but if some are then No I do not like that.

many fans do that to point at the other fans- it has nothing to do with nazi salutes

mystiroakey wrote:many fans do that to point at the other fans- it has nothing to do with nazi salutes

It looks like many on there are doing Nazi salutes to me

TopHat24/7 wrote:So if rapists are worse/more common in Poland (example) that means rapists in England are okey dokey??

But we are not debating if football violence is good or bad in general, we are debating whether English football fans are the worst behaved or that they cause the most trouble most frequently.

No one is saying that if country A's fans are worse then country B's fans then that means country B's fans are exempt from criticism. What I am saying is that when discussing football fan violence you need to compare fans from different nations to decide if any said country has a major football fan violence problem or if it is a minor problem.

Welsh football fans also cause trouble and football violence. I have seen videos of Cardiff fans involved in fights and also Welsh national fans abroad fighting. Those incidents are of course troubling and should be wiped out but if you compare the number of Welsh football fans violence to say for eg Turkish fans or Russian fans then clearly you could infer from the evidence that the issue of footbal violence in Wales is minor compared to other countries.

The same can be said for English football fans.

Steffan wrote:Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are!!!

First picture is just fans with their hands in the air, hardly scummy behaviour.

2nd picture is an EDL picture which is a political pressure group and nothing to do with football.

3rd picture is a picture of fans standing around drinking whilst some police in riot gear are stading near them, hardly scummy beahviour now is it.

I would also add that the 3rd picture with the police is from World cup 2006 in Germany. From my memory there was no football fan violence between English fans and other fans so how can you use that picture to highlight football violence when no violence happened?

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:So if rapists are worse/more common in Poland (example) that means rapists in England are okey dokey??

But we are not debating if football violence is good or bad in general, we are debating whether English football fans are the worst behaved or that they cause the most trouble most frequently.

no, we're not, that's just something you've pulled out your backside to try make your arguments stack up.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Steffan wrote:Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are



Your SCUM...and you know you are!!!

First picture is just fans with their hands in the air, hardly scummy behaviour.

2nd picture is an EDL picture which is a political pressure group and nothing to do with football.

3rd picture is a picture of fans standing around drinking whilst some police in riot gear are stading near them, hardly scummy beahviour now is it.

where's your PIC Duty when you need him, you two suit eachother.

Someone say my name? What's the topic then?

Ah, England. My country: Noble and true, gallant and proud, heroic and free.

Wouldn't change it for the world. Don't mind me though, I'm just off to listen to a couple of Churchill speeches, read a bit of Shakespeare, and listen to Land of Hope and Glory.

That is of course before walking through our beautiful green and pleasant land, and reflecting on a perfect day in a promised land.

I often wonder what heaven's like, then I realise:

I'm living in it. Just beautiful.

Duty281 wrote:Someone say my name? What's the topic then?

Ah, England. My country: Noble and true, gallant and proud, heroic and free.

Wouldn't change it for the world. Don't mind me though, I'm just off to listen to a couple of Churchill speeches, read a bit of Shakespeare, and listen to Land of Hope and Glory.

That is of course before walking through our beautiful green and pleasant land, and reflecting on a perfect day in a promised land.

I often wonder what heaven's like, then I realise:

I'm living in it. Just beautiful.

Actually reading a bit of Shakespeare sounds good. Shame your too stupid to appreciate it

What the hell do Churchill speeches have to do with Englishness?

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Someone say my name? What's the topic then?

Ah, England. My country: Noble and true, gallant and proud, heroic and free.

Wouldn't change it for the world. Don't mind me though, I'm just off to listen to a couple of Churchill speeches, read a bit of Shakespeare, and listen to Land of Hope and Glory.

That is of course before walking through our beautiful green and pleasant land, and reflecting on a perfect day in a promised land.

I often wonder what heaven's like, then I realise:

I'm living in it. Just beautiful.

Actually reading a bit of Shakespeare sounds good. Shame your too stupid to appreciate it

What the hell do Churchill speeches have to do with Englishness?

We've had this conversation before Steffan. You can't call me stupid when you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're".

Dear oh dear.

Just for you Duty

Duty281 wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Someone say my name? What's the topic then?

Ah, England. My country: Noble and true, gallant and proud, heroic and free.

Wouldn't change it for the world. Don't mind me though, I'm just off to listen to a couple of Churchill speeches, read a bit of Shakespeare, and listen to Land of Hope and Glory.

That is of course before walking through our beautiful green and pleasant land, and reflecting on a perfect day in a promised land.

I often wonder what heaven's like, then I realise:

I'm living in it. Just beautiful.

Actually reading a bit of Shakespeare sounds good. Shame your too stupid to appreciate it

What the hell do Churchill speeches have to do with Englishness?

We've had this conversation before Steffan. You can't call me stupid when you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're".

Dear oh dear.

haha

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:So if rapists are worse/more common in Poland (example) that means rapists in England are okey dokey??

But we are not debating if football violence is good or bad in general, we are debating whether English football fans are the worst behaved or that they cause the most trouble most frequently.

no, we're not, that's just something you've pulled out your backside to try make your arguments stack up.

enlighten me to the debate then.

Are English Football fans so bad or is it just the case that we're so civilised in the United Kingdom that we condem bad behavior more?

I've been all over Europe supporting Celtic and I've found many places great and some quite intimidating, if my life depended on it though I'd take a trip to an English club every day of the week, yes there is some numbskulls out there, when you get a big group of people together for such a tribal sport as Football you're always going to get people who step over the mark but apart from the odd exception its nothing at all like what you have to deal with abroad

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:So if rapists are worse/more common in Poland (example) that means rapists in England are okey dokey??

But we are not debating if football violence is good or bad in general, we are debating whether English football fans are the worst behaved or that they cause the most trouble most frequently.

no, we're not, that's just something you've pulled out your backside to try make your arguments stack up.

enlighten me to the debate then.

Tried and failed too many times in the past with that. Will just leave you to your ignorance.

Duty281 wrote:Someone say my name? What's the topic then?

Ah, England. My country: Noble and true, gallant and proud, heroic and free.

Wouldn't change it for the world. Don't mind me though, I'm just off to listen to a couple of Churchill speeches, read a bit of Shakespeare, and listen to Land of Hope and Glory.

That is of course before walking through our beautiful green and pleasant land, and reflecting on a perfect day in a promised land.

I often wonder what heaven's like, then I realise:

I'm living in it. Just beautiful.

Yep, you can't beat this country for beauty, women, history, and of course it's magnificent coastline  

Not sure about the women bit, would take Eastern Europe any day of the week over the UK!!

TopHat24/7 wrote:Not sure about the women bit, would take Eastern Europe any day of the week over the UK!!

I know, that was a curve ball  

Seems like your well versed in those chants Steffan? I was in Cardiff for the last Wales v Eng game. Atmosphere was ok, not tense at all, Police everywhere but not to stop trouble between both sets of fans. They were to flank the Swans supporters being escorted from their designated pub! You cannot even come together to support the national team fgs...
You've also even condradicted yourself when you slated the barmy army's behaviour during the 09 Ashes on the cricket board.

Breadvan wrote:Seems like your well versed in those chants Steffan? I was in Cardiff for the last Wales v Eng game. Atmosphere was ok, not tense at all Police everywhere but not to stop trouble between both sets of fans. They were to flank the Swans supporters being escorted from their designated pub! You cannot even come together to support the national team fgs...

Supports my point that it's football fans in the UK that's the problem, not nationality. No other sports suffer this burden/problem.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Seems like your well versed in those chants Steffan? I was in Cardiff for the last Wales v Eng game. Atmosphere was ok, not tense at all Police everywhere but not to stop trouble between both sets of fans. They were to flank the Swans supporters being escorted from their designated pub! You cannot even come together to support the national team fgs...

Supports my point that it's football fans in the UK that's the problem, not nationality.  No other sports suffer this burden/problem.

I would say Football fans full stop, not just English ones.

I have no idea why he keeps on bringing up english football fans as if he is making a point.

1. Football fans in this and many countries worldwide vastly outnumber all the other sporting fans put together.

2. Football is a game for all. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor - you can play football. It appeals to everyone including the people that may not get the opportunities to play golf, cricket, rugby or tennis.  When a sport is available to all and very popular you will get the odd idiot.!!

Its just a numbers game..

Twickers can sell out 90,000 fine.

90,000 people that can sit together, banter, goad, drink in the stands, all without resorting to racism or thuggery.