HEC dead

First topic message reminder :

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/28786.php

At least until ERC and the IRB tell them they're ultra vires.

Interesting times.

Dubbelyew L Overate,
so the alternative that was offered was one that would never get accepted and one that excluded a nation?? Surely only a fool would believe this was a viable offer that was made in a serious way. The offer the French and English clubs seems fair but if there are disagreements with it why can't they use that as a benchmark and then negotiate from there. It seems that it is the league that gains the most by far are unwilling to offer any compromise.

Hardly a loss only make the Celtic league stronger, to be fair pretty sick of watching refs fall over themselves for the English clubs during the HC Treviso were robbed at home v Leicester last season.

Deluded you certainly are. That did make me laugh though. The ref and his yellow card for a maul infringement some 10m away from the try line with no previous warning. Hardly robbing the Ospreys, he did his best to help the home team.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Deluded you certainly are. That did make me laugh though. The ref and his yellow card for a maul infringement some 10m away from the try line with no previous warning. Hardly robbing the Ospreys, he did his best to help the home team.

Did i mention the Ospreys?

A French English league will be a pretty dull and would hold no benefit for the National squads,
imagine it to be lack luster and beyond dull leading to a massive fall out between them with in three seasons.

A 32 team competition has its advantages, but it would exclude 4 of the 36 top tier European teams. I suspect that the firm rejection was more to do with the transparency of ERC's attempt to test not only the Franglo entente, but also the RFU/PRL relationship, by excluding PRL from the negotiation. RFU were invited to the meeting, but their stance throughout seems to be more as observers than participants.

Assuming for a moment that the Celtalians don't capitulate, what would be the point of any free passes to the new Franglo Pot?

Twenty-four teams in eight pools of three in a pool stage (4 matches each) to produce eight Elite Cup* contestants for home and away k-o games (max 4 matches) plus a final - max 9 games as per HEC would maximise revenues and fairness.

*replicated by two other cups from pool standings.

Just think of the filthy lucre!

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Assuming for a moment that the Celtalians don't capitulate, what would be the point of any free passes to the new Franglo Pot?

Twenty-four teams in eight pools of three in a pool stage (4 matches each) to produce eight Elite Cup* contestants for home and away k-o games (max 4 matches) plus a final - max 9 games as per HEC would maximise revenues and fairness.

*replicated by two other cups from pool standings.

Just think of the filthy lucre!

The PRL negotiate huge deals and that money is just being paid  for the viewers from England that want to watch England clubs play games.  Why split that money with the french?

Student-A1 wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate,
so the alternative that was offered was one that would never get accepted and one that excluded a nation?? Surely only a fool would believe this was a viable offer that was made in a serious way. The offer the French and English clubs seems fair but if there are disagreements with it why can't they use that as a benchmark and then negotiate from there. It seems that it is the league that gains the most by far are unwilling to offer any compromise.

England and France are the countries that gain the most money from the competition. The 4 other unions compromised to allow them extra teams. This point seems to be overlooked.


Remember the other countries only came together in the first place to survive. If they didn't it would have ended up like soccer where all the best players went to England and France. Thats great for English and French clubs but not great for the rest of it.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Assuming for a moment that the Celtalians don't capitulate, what would be the point of any free passes to the new Franglo Pot?

Twenty-four teams in eight pools of three in a pool stage (4 matches each) to produce eight Elite Cup* contestants for home and away k-o games (max 4 matches) plus a final - max 9 games as per HEC would maximise revenues and fairness.

*replicated by two other cups from pool standings.

Just think of the filthy lucre!

The PRL negotiate huge deals and that money is just being paid  for the viewers from England that want to watch England clubs play games.  Why split that money with the french?

It has the beauty of International competition. What's the point of playing a competition which includes only teams you play in the same league as and presenting it as something 'different'?

Plus I don't actually think that the BT deal covers the French jurisdiction. In fact there are rumours of a sneaky re-negotiation of theirs'.

But i find the biggest Irony ,the English kicking off about qualification with the Celtic League being the beef they have, every Irish team that has won the HC has always been in the top six of the league any way!
They suggest the Celtic league is soft because there is no relegation, but the English can choose if a team drops or not!!!!!! so hardly pressure on the top four teams in England who rarely finish out of the top six in there league any way!

I find it massively insulting to the Celtic league how they keep referring to our league as weak!!
HC stats prove that the Celtic nations have a 70% win rate over English teams in the competition.

Also can anyone tell me the last time a Celtic team fielded a weak team in the league to help with the HC? i know the Irish teams have rested BOD or POC but that is also due to the IRFU agreement on amount of games played.

Interesting to see the players reacting to the news...

Chris Cusiter

@chriscusiter: Pretty sad news about the H-Cup.Really hope this dispute is actually about fairness and not just about £££...

Ian Evans

@__Yanto: If the rumour is true , prob worse decision made in competition history to get rid of the HC

Ryan Lamb

Couldn't imagine not having a Heineken Cup next yr..

Jamie Roberts

@Jamiehuwroberts: If this is the end of the H.Cup then it's a very sad day...Best club tournament in our game...some incredible memories for fans and players

John Barclay

@johnbarc86: A "European Cup" with just English and French clubs (with a select few others) will be dog turd compared to the current H Cup format

So my worst nightmares are coming through. The longer it went on I the more likely I thought this was.

Now I hope the Celtalians tell the Franglo's no thanks and continue the HC without them. Then I guess we hope the lack of competition with the Celts will effect England and France's 6 Nations performances and they'll reconsider. But I'm not sure the Welsh in particular can survive financially without the HC. They're the only ones with privately owned regions in the Rabo aren't they?

It will effect the regions financial for sure maybe this is the poison in the water supply the English want! destroy us from the roots then we will stop giving them a good hiding on the International pitch,
the last thing the RWC 2015 hosts need is a good hiding off the Welsh in the 2015 RWC group stages at HQ!

I see Leinster and Munster being allowed in, but they will not let anyone else in.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Also can anyone tell me the last time a Celtic team fielded a weak team in the league to help with the HC? i know the Irish teams have rested BOD or POC but that is also due to the IRFU agreement on amount of games played.  

Last weekend?

Feckless Rogue wrote:So my worst nightmares are coming through. The longer it went on I the more likely I thought this was.

Now I hope the Celtalians tell the Franglo's no thanks and continue the HC without them. Then I guess we hope the lack of competition with the Celts will effect England and France's 6 Nations performances and they'll reconsider. But I'm not sure the Welsh in particular can survive financially without the HC. They're the only ones with privately owned regions in the Rabo aren't they?

Feckless we only have to have a Welsh Cup competition where each team plays each other on a home and away basis making 6 games, let them go and play with themselves, I'm sure you could do the same and the Scottish and Italians similarly albeit they would have less interest but perhaps the Welsh and Irish could help out the other 2, which is something that is patently obvious the English and French are NOT prepared to do

As an Englishman I'm appalled. I realise clubs are businesses and are run as such, but does absolutely frickin everything have to be 'We're not getting what WE deserve, waa waa waa' Our clubs are rich, surely richer than a decent number in the Rabo, would it really be SO damaging to them to say 'Hmm, maybe if we let the Rabo teams have a little bit more, we also benefit through the enriching presence of the HC competition.' Here is a great opportunity for English clubs to show a genuinely, dare I say it rugby-like, collegial approach to the sport. I sincerely hope that any English-French competition tanks.

The argument about relegation and resting players is also absolute BS. No-one is forcing us to have our format, if we feel disadvantaged, we can change that. It might be a shame for reasons of cultural difference, but it's not a choice out of our hands.

Lots of people like to talk about how rugby is different to football, more gentlemanly etc...not for much longer. What a sad day for rugby.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Also can anyone tell me the last time a Celtic team fielded a weak team in the league to help with the HC? i know the Irish teams have rested BOD or POC but that is also due to the IRFU agreement on amount of games played.  

Last weekend?

I didn't know the Heineken Cup was this weekend.

Hood83 wrote:As an Englishman I'm appalled. I realise clubs are businesses and are run as such, but does absolutely frickin everything have to be 'We're not getting what WE deserve, waa waa waa' Our clubs are rich, surely richer than a decent number in the Rabo, would it really be SO damaging to them to say 'Hmm, maybe if we let the Rabo teams have a little bit more, we also benefit through the enriching presence of the HC competition.' Here is a great opportunity for English clubs to show a genuinely, dare I say it rugby-like, collegial approach to the sport. I sincerely hope that any English-French competition tanks.

The argument about relegation and resting players is also absolute BS. No-one is forcing us to have our format, if we feel disadvantaged, we can change that. It might be a shame for reasons of cultural difference, but it's not a choice out of our hands.  

Lots of people like to talk about how rugby is different to football, more gentlemanly etc...not for much longer. What a sad day for rugby.

                                                     

What if the Rabo nations stopped bringing enough attendance money internationally. Would you make the 6N into a 5 Test French/English series??????????????????

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:I see Leinster and Munster being allowed in, but they will not let anyone else in.

 

Maybe the PRL timed this to create panic in the ranks as some fear an end to what is a great competition? Maybe it's a bluff, maybe not, but either way the Celts, and Italians, should hold their nerve, and not give in to the demands of PRL.
If the four hold their nerve, and if the competition is scrapped, then change does not necessarily have to be a bad thing. Alternatives can be explored, and it's just possible that the chosen alternative may be to the greater benefit of all in the long term.
Of course it's also just possible that the HEC survives, the PRL jump ship, and the French remain. Just never know...

Hood83 wrote:As an Englishman I'm appalled. I realise clubs are businesses and are run as such, but does absolutely frickin everything have to be 'We're not getting what WE deserve, waa waa waa' Our clubs are rich, surely richer than a decent number in the Rabo, would it really be SO damaging to them to say 'Hmm, maybe if we let the Rabo teams have a little bit more, we also benefit through the enriching presence of the HC competition.' Here is a great opportunity for English clubs to show a genuinely, dare I say it rugby-like, collegial approach to the sport. I sincerely hope that any English-French competition tanks.

The argument about relegation and resting players is also absolute BS. No-one is forcing us to have our format, if we feel disadvantaged, we can change that. It might be a shame for reasons of cultural difference, but it's not a choice out of our hands.  

Lots of people like to talk about how rugby is different to football, more gentlemanly etc...not for much longer. What a sad day for rugby.

 

The Saint wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Also can anyone tell me the last time a Celtic team fielded a weak team in the league to help with the HC? i know the Irish teams have rested BOD or POC but that is also due to the IRFU agreement on amount of games played.  

Last weekend?

I didn't know the Heineken Cup was this weekend.

Dub, you know as well as I that the English clubs are able to rest their EPS players due to the presence of foreign journeymen players - it's called player welfare, and whether you call it resting for the Heino or whatever, all nations sides do it

Wont mind too much if we have no european competition before the next world cup. Players will finally be rested and who knows have more time to prepare for the international games.

Bravo Hood - that's what a whole lot of us Celts are thinking and feeling right now.

Well said Hood. Nice to know England rugby fans aren't a bunch of Portnoy's Complaints.

I reckon the French will stab the English in the back,then the English can go and get there heads kicked in down South in the Currie cup!
Then when they are done sulking with that we can all say NO! when they want back in.

More i dwell on it the more i realize this is just one great big sh!!!!!!t bomb for every party involved!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Also can anyone tell me the last time a Celtic team fielded a weak team in the league to help with the HC? i know the Irish teams have rested BOD or POC but that is also due to the IRFU agreement on amount of games played.  

Last weekend?

I didn't know the Heineken Cup was this weekend.

Dub, you know as well as I that the English clubs are able to rest their EPS players due to the presence of foreign journeymen players - it's called player welfare, and whether you call it resting for the Heino or whatever, all nations sides do it

It's my opinion that the rabo clubs do player welfare better than AP, and that they set an acceptable standard. Maybe the IRFU err a little more on keeping their elite players for the internationals/HC rather than the league, but the crowds (and the results) seem to tell the lie on that. Pretty much all the lions/internationals in the AP and T14 are playing now, few in Rabo. I don't believe it's right, but the imperative" from TV/sponsors/etc in the AP for the top performing players to strut their stuff throughout the whole season is not replicated in the Rabo. The foreign journeymen argument is, I believe, specious - they're not there to protect EPS players, they're either better than them or available through IW's, not HC's.

"moot point if the "imperative" is perceived, cultural, or actual

I understand other England fans will completely disagree, and fair enough, but I don't think the game should be about flexing our financial muscles and trying to bully other countries - if it is I hope the other 5Ns stuff us.

Is rugby really just being run by parochial, effing bean counting, greedy @rses now? I would rather no English ever won the HC again, but that it actually existed, than to have this pap Franglais turd (and I love French rugby).

Anyway, I've said my piece, not trying to annoy fellow English posters.

Maybe blanco seeing the state of his poor club is pushing the NRL so he can get a T16.

I say that NZ and Aus need more internationals due to money. Have the rabo unions play them in AIs.

There are so many things the Rabo can do.

Also sky can sell anythjng and make it sound good so keep the HC. That way no matter what happens the franglos can't say they are the best in europe.

And does anyone see this go the LV Cup route

Well a few google searches and the plot thickens,
Politics and greed is the bottom line, no player development line ,no best for the fans line can hide from the utter greed and corruption behind this.
Spiteful pride from people who didn't get the top jobs at the ERC have put at risk the future of clubs because of sheer spite.
All very medieval "i don't like your church rules so i will go and make my own Church".

toml wrote:

Hood83 wrote:As an Englishman I'm appalled. I realise clubs are businesses and are run as such, but does absolutely frickin everything have to be 'We're not getting what WE deserve, waa waa waa' Our clubs are rich, surely richer than a decent number in the Rabo, would it really be SO damaging to them to say 'Hmm, maybe if we let the Rabo teams have a little bit more, we also benefit through the enriching presence of the HC competition.' Here is a great opportunity for English clubs to show a genuinely, dare I say it rugby-like, collegial approach to the sport. I sincerely hope that any English-French competition tanks.

The argument about relegation and resting players is also absolute BS. No-one is forcing us to have our format, if we feel disadvantaged, we can change that. It might be a shame for reasons of cultural difference, but it's not a choice out of our hands.  

Lots of people like to talk about how rugby is different to football, more gentlemanly etc...not for much longer. What a sad day for rugby.

                                                     

What if the Rabo nations stopped bringing enough attendance money internationally. Would you make the 6N into a 5 Test French/English series??????????????????

Imagine if the All Blacks were solely funded by the RFU (for whatever bizarre reason) and we said - sorry, pay your own way or you're a gonna. You either say 'Good, they're nothing without us, I'm fed up of paying them to whallop us' or you think 'OK, we pay them to smash us, but as much as this sucks, it sucks less than not having the chance to beat them'. I think i go for option 2.

That's basically how my extremely simple mind sees it.

Anyway, if it comes to pass I hope the Rabo works out a way to make some more money. Any other thoughts as to how?

Brendan wrote:Maybe blanco seeing the state of his poor club is pushing the NRL so he can get a T16.

I say that NZ and Aus need more internationals due to money.  Have the rabo unions play them in AIs.

There are so many things the Rabo can do.

Yep the Welsh regions would sell out if Aus SA or NZ were coming to play.

Why can't people see that rugby is going down the soccer route? Its already too late for the french.

This needs to end now. The HC must stay and it must have repersentation from all countries 6 countries, end of.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Why can't people see that rugby is going down the soccer route? Its already too late for the french.

This needs to end now. The HC must stay and it must have repersentation from all countries 6 countries, end of.

Agree 100% but the damage is already done,trust is lost.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Why can't people see that rugby is going down the soccer route? Its already too late for the french.

This needs to end now. The HC must stay and it must have repersentation from all countries 6 countries, end of.

For how long? When should it expand to 7 countries , or 8, or 9, or more? How will the Russians or Romanians, or Portuguese, etc prove that they have a better team than the worst of the 6 countries - or doesn't that matter?

Deluded where's the stat that shows that celts have a 70% win rate against English clubs? Perhaps Munster and Leinster but the rest? I doubt it.

I already stated on another post that the likes of Edinburgh, Connacht and Glasgow have overall win rate of 30% in the HC.

I know plenty of teams in the Pro12 who have a poor record against my side. I think only Leinster,Munster and surprisingly Cardiff have a good record. It's 5-7 vs Irish sides currently - should make it even this season hopefully.

toml wrote:
What if the Rabo nations stopped bringing enough attendance money internationally. Would you make the 6N into a 5 Test French/English series??????????????????

I think thats a point worth highlighting. The English clubs claims they're bringing all the English fans to the table. Its like they're claiming ownership of what English people watch. You could be an Irish person in England who want to watch your Irish team but according to the English clubs you're watching them!

beshocked wrote:Deluded where's the stat that shows that celts have a 70% win rate against English clubs? Perhaps Munster and Leinster but the rest? I doubt it.

I already stated on another post that the likes of Edinburgh, Connacht and Glasgow have overall win rate of 30% in the HC.

I know plenty of teams in the Pro12 who have a poor record against my side. I think only Leinster,Munster and surprisingly Cardiff have a good record.   It's 5-7 vs Irish sides currently - should make it even this season hopefully.

Whats your team? a few searches will show you how poor the English sides do against the welsh regions.

It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC. Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC. They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.

Sarries. Deluded. 5-2 vs Welsh sides. 3-0 vs Ospreys.

beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC.  Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC.  They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.

Who carries the premiereship hopes then? We have just seen an all French final. Before that we saw an all Irish final (with ulster who had just won and all celtic semi). Then we go back to saints making a final who haven't got out of the group since as I recall. Before that I believe was another all French final then Leicester made it but haven't been seen since (have they reached a semi since?) before that was Irish and French.

If Munster and Leinster are carrying the pro12 in HEC competition I see nobody worthy in the premiership by your criteria

I can assure you the Welsh regions besides the Dragons have over a 50% Ulster over 50% win rate against English teams and Munster Leinster are over 70%!
But i guess that is because they have no relegation threat.

beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC.  Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC.  They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.

Been following rugby for two years i see.

beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC.  Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC.  They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.

I think you know as well as everyone else in this conversation that the issue here is the financial breakdown in the HC and everything you have posted above is the same red herring that Mark McCafferty somehow thinks everyone else will believe. If you really think this is about the number of Rabo teams that qualify for the HC then the likes of Mark McCafferty are playing you for a naive fool.

beshocked wrote:Sarries. Deluded. 5-2 vs Welsh sides. 3-0 vs Ospreys.

Sarries have actually done well v Welsh sides over the years i remember them giving Scarlets a good hiding once, but im talking league v league

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's funny how a lot of pro12 fans don't acknowledge that their sides generally perform poorly in the HC.  Yes I know Leinster and Munster are the exceptions to that rule.

I am sorry but there is not much demand to see the likes of Connacht,Edinburgh and Zebre in the HC.  They would be better in a competition more suited to their level - the amlin.

Pro12 contingent are far too greedy. They want their all but guaranteed 11 out of 24 places in the HC to continue to be protected. They say it is for development. I say the HC is not a development competition. It's for the top sides in Europe. I am sorry but the likes of Zebre,Connacht and Edinburgh are not top sides in Europe. Plus the Scots and Welsh in particular have made very little progress in the HC in all their appearances.

Leinster and Munster effectively carry the rest of the Pro12 on their shoulders when it comes to European hopes.

I think the eradication of hanging onto coat tails in particular is good.

Been following rugby for two years i see.

  

beshocked summed up in one sentence.