HEC dead

First topic message reminder :

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/mobile/news/28786.php

At least until ERC and the IRB tell them they're ultra vires.

Interesting times.

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC doesn't exist from next season so any deal if void anyway.
All TV contracts are void. No contracts are broken. The RFU have to sanction the TV deal (probably) but they have to sanction any competition anyway.

The ERC is dead and had to die the moment the two TV contracts existed. But the ECR or REC or CRE or some other virtually identical body CAN exist. But one of the requirements is the English home games will be broadcast by BT

Not quite that simple Hammer as I'm sure you're aware. I don't want to get into the legal side of things as I know nothing about the details of individual agreements, but there is the question
of supremacy of contract and therefore ability to sub contract.

ERC games are sold to Sky. There aren't any.

Notch wrote:Right, so here's where we are.

The ERC will either not exist, or will exist but as a glorified Pro12.
The RFU may not sanction the new tournament, indications are the FFR and IRB won't.

Everybody loses.

What indications have there been that the IRB won't?

HammerofThunor wrote:ERC games are sold to Sky. There aren't any.

Sorry, thought you might have taken on board a point from my earlier post about the complexity of contract law. You clearly haven't. Discussion such as it was ended.

ERC hoping,as its the last hope it has

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC doesn't exist from next season so any deal if void anyway.
All TV contracts are void. No contracts are broken. The RFU have to sanction the TV deal (probably) but they have to sanction any competition anyway.

The ERC is dead and had to die the moment the two TV contracts existed. But the ECR or REC or CRE or some other virtually identical body CAN exist. But one of the requirements is the English home games will be broadcast by BT

Can you clarify and explain this one Hammer...... will the ERC be dead next season for certain, and why did it have to cease once two TV contracted were signed off?.

IRB aren't going to approve a new cross-border competition in Europe without the consent of the main six unions in Europe. The IRFU, WRU, SRU and FIR have nine votes between them in the IRB council- all ERC stakeholders are none too happy about the PRL and LNR ditching negotiations. The RFU and FFR also have two votes each and their position is unclear. Additionally the chairman Bernard Lapasset will be hostile unless it's proven that the new tournament will benefit everyone in European rugby, not just the French and English. And unless the other four unions join them thats not going to be the case.

Therefore I honestly can't see any new tournament that doesn't involve the other European countries going ahead with the blessing of the IRB. It would have to involve some sort of split from mainstream rugby union.

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC doesn't exist from next season so any deal if void anyway.
All TV contracts are void. No contracts are broken. The RFU have to sanction the TV deal (probably) but they have to sanction any competition anyway.

The ERC is dead and had to die the moment the two TV contracts existed. But the ECR or REC or CRE or some other virtually identical body CAN exist. But one of the requirements is the English home games will be broadcast by BT

Thought the ERC only comes to an end if the majority walk away LNR and PRL walk away still leaves
(FFR), (RFU), (IRFU) x 2, (FIR) x 2, (Scottish Rugby) x 2, (WRU) and (RRW).  

I'm guessing that if PRL/LNR walk away the votes would revert back to the FFR/RFU

Like I've said before there's still 28 other clubs who would probably like to take part in a European comp.

flyhalffactory wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC doesn't exist from next season so any deal if void anyway.
All TV contracts are void. No contracts are broken. The RFU have to sanction the TV deal (probably) but they have to sanction any competition anyway.

The ERC is dead and had to die the moment the two TV contracts existed. But the ECR or REC or CRE or some other virtually identical body CAN exist. But one of the requirements is the English home games will be broadcast by BT

Can you clarify and explain this one Hammer...... will the ERC be dead next season for certain, and why did it have to cease once two TV contracted were signed off.

The PRL can't pull out of the BT deal as it would put the league deal at risk. So the ERC deal can't happen. The ERC have carried on as is nothing is happening (which makes sense as what else are they to do). But they don't have the rights to sell the rights to a competition that ceases to exist after this season.

Both the English and French clubs have said that they are looking at setting up a separate competition that involves at least them but others can get involved (details of control, money, etc to be determined). This is separate the ERC. It will require at least FFR and RFU approval.

However there is always the chance that they split off from union completely. Unlikely but the French are given noting by their union. So would lose nothing if they left. It would be financially viable for the them. Potentially an issue regarding the players being banned from international rugby but the vast majority of players in these leagues will never player international rugby so they might be able get enough together for the threat at least.

But the PRL have already stated that if the RFU don't sanction the Franglo cup they just have to do without cross-border rugby. The key point is they will be involved in this new comp or nothing and are prepared to accept that.

It might well take some sort of split or renegotiated ERC type body but I still think we'll end up with a European competition. However I can't see it being on the same basis as the current arrangements.

allyt2k wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC doesn't exist from next season so any deal if void anyway.
All TV contracts are void. No contracts are broken. The RFU have to sanction the TV deal (probably) but they have to sanction any competition anyway.

The ERC is dead and had to die the moment the two TV contracts existed. But the ECR or REC or CRE or some other virtually identical body CAN exist. But one of the requirements is the English home games will be broadcast by BT

Thought the ERC only comes to an end if the majority walk away LNR and PRL walk away still leaves
(FFR), (RFU), (IRFU) x 2, (FIR) x 2, (Scottish Rugby) x 2, (WRU) and (RRW).  

I'm guessing that if PRL/LNR walk away the votes would revert back to the FFR/RFU

Like I've said before there's still 28 other clubs who would probably like to take part in a European comp.

Then there is still Be no conflict as the BT deal is for the English home games which there won't be any of. The issue would be with if the ERC had sold the right including English games that don't exist.

HammerofThunor wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC doesn't exist from next season so any deal if void anyway.
All TV contracts are void. No contracts are broken. The RFU have to sanction the TV deal (probably) but they have to sanction any competition anyway.

The ERC is dead and had to die the moment the two TV contracts existed. But the ECR or REC or CRE or some other virtually identical body CAN exist. But one of the requirements is the English home games will be broadcast by BT

Can you clarify and explain this one Hammer...... will the ERC be dead next season for certain, and why did it have to cease once two TV contracted were signed off.

The PRL can't pull out of the BT deal as it would put the league deal at risk. So the ERC deal can't happen. The ERC have carried on as is nothing is happening (which makes sense as what else are they to do). But they don't have the rights to sell the rights to a competition that ceases to exist after this season.

Both the English and French clubs have said that they are looking at setting up a separate competition that involves at least them but others can get involved (details of control, money, etc to be determined). This is separate the ERC. It will require at least FFR and RFU approval.

However there is always the chance that they split off from union completely. Unlikely but the French are given noting by their union. So would lose nothing if they left. It would be financially viable for the them. Potentially an issue regarding the players being banned from international rugby but the vast majority of players in these leagues will never player international rugby so they might be able get enough together for the threat at least.

But the PRL have already stated that if the RFU don't sanction the Franglo cup they just have to do without cross-border rugby. The key point is they will be involved in this new comp or nothing and are prepared to accept that.

I am still not 100% sure why the ERC will not exist....... if the English and French walk away then they walk away. The ERC can still exist albeit they might have to suddenly be innovative for a change, cut their cloth accordingly..... look at other systems take the example of the Bundesliga (two German clubs in the 2013 Champions League final) and specifically Borussia Dortmund while generating a net transfer surplus.

The answer is invest at grass root level the club’s academy like the German model, reward loyalty for staying and playing in your country/union, discourage playing away from your union unless it is for development in a lower ranked European country i.e. a feeder club linked to your union thus encouraging the game in the lower ranked Euro countries.

Develop better links with other European countries, maintain the HC but have a Champions League style approach........ lower ranked clubs/regions/provinces play the earlier rounds until it gets to the last 16.

Ranking / Country / Clubs
6 WALES 4
8 IRELAND 4
9 SCOTLAND 2
12 ITALY 2
16 GEORGIA 2
17 ROMANIA 2
19 RUSSIA 2
20 SPAIN 2
22 PORTUGAL 2
25 BELGIUM 2
27 GERMANY 2
28 POLAND 2

That's 28 teams........
Round 1: Bottom ranked representative from each union plus 4 others (based on ranked form) - 16 teams home and away knockout to leave 8
Round 2: 8 play home & away knockout to leave 4
Round 3: Pool stage 4 tables of 4 teams that's the remaining 12 plus the 4 remaining from the knockout stage
Semi Finals & Final as per existing HC

You can extend this to a two tier European 6Ns with a promotion/relegation to make it interesting....... taking England/France out of the equation altogether.

Ok perhaps its a bit pie in the sky and will take a bit of time to build up..... but its something to chew on, and if the German model works with its financial and marketing disadvantages compared to England, Italy and to an extent (in the past) Spain, then its all about proper management and marketing and a European Rugby Cup can still go on.

Jean-Pierre Lux, independent Chairman of ERC in today's Telegraph wrote:
Can ERC’s revenues grow in the future, and is there room for the share-out of the funds to change? Yes, of course. During the last Accord negotiations, the shareholdings and revenue splits were altered by general agreement. Can the format change? Yes. Can the qualification criteria change? Again, yes. But any changes to European club rugby can only be made if decision-makers are prepared to engage and to enter into genuine negotiations to find a solution for the benefit of all including fans and players alike.

So now everything is in the table. It is all too late. Notice was given eighteen months ago. PRL and LNR waited in vain for the negotaitions to start. Now they have effectively left and are forming a new competition Lux claims it is they who are refusing to negotiate.

I notice he calls himself the Independent Chairman but this is the man who, when elected, had the support of just six teams, with his opponent having twenty eight. He represents the unions against the clubs.

flyhalffactory wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC doesn't exist from next season so any deal if void anyway.
All TV contracts are void. No contracts are broken. The RFU have to sanction the TV deal (probably) but they have to sanction any competition anyway.

The ERC is dead and had to die the moment the two TV contracts existed. But the ECR or REC or CRE or some other virtually identical body CAN exist. But one of the requirements is the English home games will be broadcast by BT

Can you clarify and explain this one Hammer...... will the ERC be dead next season for certain, and why did it have to cease once two TV contracted were signed off.

The PRL can't pull out of the BT deal as it would put the league deal at risk. So the ERC deal can't happen. The ERC have carried on as is nothing is happening (which makes sense as what else are they to do). But they don't have the rights to sell the rights to a competition that ceases to exist after this season.

Both the English and French clubs have said that they are looking at setting up a separate competition that involves at least them but others can get involved (details of control, money, etc to be determined). This is separate the ERC. It will require at least FFR and RFU approval.

However there is always the chance that they split off from union completely. Unlikely but the French are given noting by their union. So would lose nothing if they left. It would be financially viable for the them. Potentially an issue regarding the players being banned from international rugby but the vast majority of players in these leagues will never player international rugby so they might be able get enough together for the threat at least.

But the PRL have already stated that if the RFU don't sanction the Franglo cup they just have to do without cross-border rugby. The key point is they will be involved in this new comp or nothing and are prepared to accept that.

I am still not 100% sure why the ERC will not exist....... if the English and French walk away then they walk away.  The ERC can still exist albeit they might have to suddenly be innovative for a change, cut their cloth accordingly..... look at other systems take the example of the Bundesliga  (two German clubs in the 2013 Champions League final) and specifically Borussia Dortmund while generating a net transfer surplus.

The answer is invest at grass root level the club’s academy like the German model, reward loyalty for staying and playing in your country/union, discourage playing away from your union unless it is for development in a lower ranked European country i.e. a feeder club linked to your union thus encouraging the game in the lower ranked Euro countries.

Develop better links with other European countries, maintain the HC but have a Champions League style approach........ lower ranked clubs/regions/provinces play the earlier rounds until it gets to the last 16.

Ranking / Country / Clubs
6 WALES 4
8 IRELAND 4
9 SCOTLAND 2
12 ITALY 2
16 GEORGIA 2
17 ROMANIA 2
19 RUSSIA 2
20 SPAIN 2
22 PORTUGAL 2
25 BELGIUM  2
27 GERMANY 2
28 POLAND 2

That's 28 teams........
Round 1: Bottom ranked representative from each union plus 4 others (based on ranked form) - 16 teams home and away knockout to leave 8
Round 2: 8 play home & away knockout to leave 4
Round 3: Pool stage 4 tables of 4 teams that's the remaining 12 plus the 4 remaining from the knockout stage
Semi Finals & Final as per existing HC

You can extend this to a two tier European 6Ns with a promotion/relegation to make it interesting....... taking England/France out of the equation altogether.

Ok perhaps its a bit pie in the sky and will take a bit of time to build up..... but its something to chew on, and if the German model works with its financial and marketing disadvantages compared to England, Italy and to an extent (in the past) Spain, then its all about proper management and marketing and a European Rugby Cup can still go on.

Actually it is the PRL/LNR who want to create a third tier with representatives from other countries. They have suggested that the finalists from tier 3 would play in the tier 2 comp i.e. the Amlin replacement.

Flyhalffactory, that wouldn't really be the ERC. Some people seem to have seen the ERC as THE European rugby representative. But it's not. It's just a board created to govern the EC and CC and is concerned just with rugby within it's members. Biggest issue that I can see is that 4/6th couldn't give a damn about one of it's competitions (FIR probably care as much as the SRU does the B&I Cup). Same with their fans given by the comments on this site. That's fine but it's another reason the current setup is not considered fit for purpose.

What really needs to happen IMO (and this is where the IRB should step in) is the formation of a European Rugby Board made up of the Unions to govern rugby in Europe, which includes all Unions in Europe. Then you can have a second board that covers domestic European competitions (Pro12 can be handled here or separately). I would have it largely controlled by the domestic bodies but competition is sanctioned by the ERB instead of the IRB (tricky as competition could have significant impact on non-European rugby).

I think it's shocking that 2 leagues with 8+ professional sides have no representatives in any of the 'European' competitions. There is no reason for the ERC to change this as they don't care about anyone outside the 6 nations. It needs ripping up and thinking again. This should have happened in 2012, but instead it's too late.

I think the points made by fans like HT are getting more and more ridiculous.

The ERC aren't over, they had a meeting last week in Dublin with all members present. They are determined to make European rugby work.

Interesting to see that even BT Sports pundits think the break away ideas is a load of rubbish. Laurence Dallaglio wants to keep the Heineken Cup and reject the breakaway idea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24134236

HammerofThunor wrote:Flyhalffactory, that wouldn't really be the ERC. Some people seem to have seen the ERC as THE European rugby representative. But it's not. It's just a board created to govern the EC and CC and is concerned just with rugby within it's members. Biggest issue that I can see is that 4/6th couldn't give a damn about one of it's competitions (FIR probably care as much as the SRU does the B&I Cup). Same with their fans given by the comments on this site. That's fine but it's another reason the current setup is not considered fit for purpose.

What really needs to happen IMO (and this is where the IRB should step in) is the formation of a European Rugby Board made up of the Unions to govern rugby in Europe, which includes all Unions in Europe. Then you can have a second board that covers domestic European competitions (Pro12 can be handled here or separately). I would have it largely controlled by the domestic bodies but competition is sanctioned by the ERB instead of the IRB (tricky as competition could have significant impact on non-European rugby).

I think it's shocking that 2 leagues with 8+ professional sides have no representatives in any of the 'European' competitions. There is no reason for the ERC to change this as they don't care about anyone outside the 6 nations. It needs ripping up and thinking again. This should have happened in 2012, but instead it's too late.

Unless you count the B&I Cup, but that still leaves the ProD2 floating in the wind

HammerofThunor wrote:Flyhalffactory, that wouldn't really be the ERC. Some people seem to have seen the ERC as THE European rugby representative. But it's not. It's just a board created to govern the EC and CC and is concerned just with rugby within it's members. Biggest issue that I can see is that 4/6th couldn't give a damn about one of it's competitions (FIR probably care as much as the SRU does the B&I Cup). Same with their fans given by the comments on this site. That's fine but it's another reason the current setup is not considered fit for purpose.

What really needs to happen IMO (and this is where the IRB should step in) is the formation of a European Rugby Board made up of the Unions to govern rugby in Europe, which includes all Unions in Europe. Then you can have a second board that covers domestic European competitions (Pro12 can be handled here or separately). I would have it largely controlled by the domestic bodies but competition is sanctioned by the ERB instead of the IRB (tricky as competition could have significant impact on non-European rugby).

I think it's shocking that 2 leagues with 8+ professional sides have no representatives in any of the 'European' competitions. There is no reason for the ERC to change this as they don't care about anyone outside the 6 nations. It needs ripping up and thinking again. This should have happened in 2012, but instead it's too late.

Well, there is already one in place - FIRA-AER, which is a democratic association of 48 European Unions (including the 6N Unions) and which has a permanent place on the IRB Council. It runs the European Nations Cup for full internationals with promotion between leagues, the top tier of which is also known as 6NB. Age-group and 7's internationals also fall under its umbrella, as well as some cross-border regional club competitions.

http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/rubrique-25.htm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Flyhalffactory, that wouldn't really be the ERC. Some people seem to have seen the ERC as THE European rugby representative. But it's not. It's just a board created to govern the EC and CC and is concerned just with rugby within it's members. Biggest issue that I can see is that 4/6th couldn't give a damn about one of it's competitions (FIR probably care as much as the SRU does the B&I Cup). Same with their fans given by the comments on this site. That's fine but it's another reason the current setup is not considered fit for purpose.

What really needs to happen IMO (and this is where the IRB should step in) is the formation of a European Rugby Board made up of the Unions to govern rugby in Europe, which includes all Unions in Europe. Then you can have a second board that covers domestic European competitions (Pro12 can be handled here or separately). I would have it largely controlled by the domestic bodies but competition is sanctioned by the ERB instead of the IRB (tricky as competition could have significant impact on non-European rugby).

I think it's shocking that 2 leagues with 8+ professional sides have no representatives in any of the 'European' competitions. There is no reason for the ERC to change this as they don't care about anyone outside the 6 nations. It needs ripping up and thinking again. This should have happened in 2012, but instead it's too late.

Unless you count the B&I Cup, but that still leaves the ProD2 floating in the wind

As. How do you think provinces and regions will react to the prospect of a ProD2?
Differently to their Franglo counterparts?

And how would/should promotion and relegation be managed?

If the Welsh, Scots, Irish and Italians are left out in the cold and the ERC still exisits perhaps they could consider inviting countries to enter the Heineken cup. Romania, Georgia, Spain, Russia could all enter (possibly under other names) a smaller tournament v the Welsh, Scots, Irish and Italians club sides in a smaller tournament with 4 groups of 4 and then knockout.

I know its a daft idea but at least it would be competitive and would seriously improve those teams and maintain a high enough standard for all other teams.

As I recall, back in May/June 2012, it was reported that FFR had given notice to withdraw along with LNR and PRL, but RFU had not. If those 3 do withdraw, and ERC have no viable competition to sell, then ERC may as well be dissolved - it would comprise the members of Celtic League Ltd plus RFU as an unwanted sleeping partner.

RFU have manipulated the second tier of English club rugby into a shadow of the Jeff - 12 teams, top 4 playoff and B&I Cup now aligned with ERC windows. It could seamlessly enter 4, or 6, or 12 tier 2 teams into an ERC competition(s), instead of B&I Cup.

Whether this influx of lower quality teams would be sufficient to make a competition viable is a moot point. If FFR are not withdrawing, they could do the same, except I think ProD2 teams are part of LNR, so it would be third tier, Federale 1.

It would probably result in civil war within English rugby, so is unlikely to happen, but there's a possibility that we could see a weakened ERC competition on Sky, and a Franglo Cup on BT at the same time.

It has been interesting hear the players views in all this uproar.

All want the HEC to continue, they want to play in it, they want to compete in the greatest club competition ever seen in the NH.

Maybe that will be more of a deciding factor than the demands of the PRL and their parent company BT.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Flyhalffactory, that wouldn't really be the ERC. Some people seem to have seen the ERC as THE European rugby representative. But it's not. It's just a board created to govern the EC and CC and is concerned just with rugby within it's members. Biggest issue that I can see is that 4/6th couldn't give a damn about one of it's competitions (FIR probably care as much as the SRU does the B&I Cup). Same with their fans given by the comments on this site. That's fine but it's another reason the current setup is not considered fit for purpose.

What really needs to happen IMO (and this is where the IRB should step in) is the formation of a European Rugby Board made up of the Unions to govern rugby in Europe, which includes all Unions in Europe. Then you can have a second board that covers domestic European competitions (Pro12 can be handled here or separately). I would have it largely controlled by the domestic bodies but competition is sanctioned by the ERB instead of the IRB (tricky as competition could have significant impact on non-European rugby).

I think it's shocking that 2 leagues with 8+ professional sides have no representatives in any of the 'European' competitions. There is no reason for the ERC to change this as they don't care about anyone outside the 6 nations. It needs ripping up and thinking again. This should have happened in 2012, but instead it's too late.

Unless you count the B&I Cup, but that still leaves the ProD2 floating in the wind

As. How do you think provinces and regions will react to the prospect of a ProD2?
Differently to their Franglo counterparts?

And how would/should promotion and relegation be managed?

Sorry, not with you, Portnoy? - the ProD2 is the second professional league in France, I believe?

maestegmafia wrote:It has been interesting hear the players views in all this uproar.

All want the HEC to continue, they want to play in it, they want to compete in the greatest club competition ever seen in the NH.

Maybe that will be more of a deciding factor than the demands of the PRL and their parent company BT.

But a lot of the quotes I have seen do suggest that they see that changes need to be made. It is (as ever) a very selective reading of the information available. Nobody wants to see an end to European competition, not the PRL not the LNR - no one. The issue is the form it takes and what the stakeholders put in and get back from it.

OK. I thought you referring to a conceptual Pro12D2. A misunderstanding in the terminology which fits with the What's in a Name? thread.

Sorry.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:OK. I thought you referring to a conceptual Pro12D2. A misunderstanding in the terminology which fits with the What's in a Name? thread.

Sorry.

Ah, I see, gotcha - I suppose conceptually such a beast would be possible and in league format might involve some of the nations outside the 6N, but the cost of travel/accommodation would I suspect be the biggest drawback to getting that off the ground. Certainly no issues with promotion/relegation if needs be - its simply not been necessary to think about them yet

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:It has been interesting hear the players views in all this uproar.

All want the HEC to continue, they want to play in it, they want to compete in the greatest club competition ever seen in the NH.

Maybe that will be more of a deciding factor than the demands of the PRL and their parent company BT.

But a lot of the quotes I have seen do suggest that they see that changes need to be made. It is (as ever) a very selective reading of the information available. Nobody wants to see an end to European competition, not the PRL not the LNR - no one. The issue is the form it takes and what the stakeholders put in and get back from it.

The PRL has declared that it wants to see an end to the ERC, which is currently the appointed (by the unions) custodian of European competition - deadlock?

Lets get something straight I don't want Clubs, Regions or Provinces running any facet of NH Rugby, it was set up by Unions as a step between National Leagues and Internationals. Did they do a reasonable job in the first 15-20 years IMO yes, did they look around to get the best deal for the ongoing years obviously NOT. I believe the Irish Provinces are generally happy with what they get from the IRFU, the same applies to the Scottish Regions, I don't know how the Italians feel. I know many(vast majority) on our fans forum Os are very unhappy that we do not get anywhere near the full amount that the WRU receive from the ERC, given that we only get our players back for 2 training sessions after the AI, before very important HC games, also we are refused permission to play a game against Tonga to help with finances.
The reason I'm responding today is that I'm incensed with the ERC, with all that has been spoken in the press since the last meeting, they have now set up a new meeting for 6 WEEKS TIME, if they are serious about this problem it would have been set up for at the most 6 DAYS FROM NOW.
IMO, the longer this is going on the more I want to join up with the Franglos, I always wanted the teams reduced to 20, with representation being 8,5,5 and the League that wins the HC and Amlin having the final 2 if they havent already qualified. Notch came up with a feasible plan a few days ago, I could go along with that.
By all accounts somebody within Leinster has said if nothing comes of the ERC negotiations, they will be prepared to consider joining with the Franglos, I believe the same would happen with at least 2 of the Welsh Regions (Os) included.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I think it's shocking that 2 leagues with 8+ professional sides have no representatives in any of the 'European' competitions. There is no reason for the ERC to change this as they don't care about anyone outside the 6 nations. It needs ripping up and thinking again. This should have happened in 2012, but instead it's too late.

Unless you count the B&I Cup, but that still leaves the ProD2 floating in the wind

I don't understand how your comment is assciated with the quote in bold. What has the B&I cup got to do with anything? I was talking about the Georgian league with 8 professional teams and the Russia league with 10 professional teams.

wayne wrote:Lets get something straight I don't want Clubs, Regions or Provinces running any facet of NH Rugby, it was set up by Unions as a step between National Leagues and Internationals. Did they do a reasonable job in the first 15-20 years IMO yes, did they look around to get the best deal for the ongoing years obviously NOT. I believe the Irish Provinces are generally happy with what they get from the IRFU, the same applies to the Scottish Regions, I don't know how the Italians feel.    

Surely saying the Scottish and Irish regions are happy with their unions is meaningless as they are part of their unions. All the people at the regions are employees of the union. We have no idea what they might think if they were independent. What we do know is that when the election took place for the ERC chairmanship all the votes of the teams which were not controlled by a union went for Peter Wheeler including the Welsh regions.