How will the Rabo respond to the Franglos now?

Well the French LNR and the English PRL weren't joking after all. Whither the Rabo?

The door remains open.

By sticking up two fingers and saying "Ta-ra" I assume.

The Saint wrote:By sticking up two fingers and saying "Ta-ra" I assume.

An interesting albeit costly gesture of defiance then, St?

That's what I hope. They've held their nerve this far down the line... BTW, I don't think the French will create a competition with the Anglo's. They'll expand the Top 14 because the money is there in France. The Celts can survive by bringing in more Italian's to the league (TV deals, etc..). It's also give opportunity to reboot the Anglo-Welsh competition. Do you think the English Premiership can go it alone?

You think that it's still a bluff?

We'll see...

As I mentioned on another thread, there is a report in SudOuest today that says that several leaders of club rugby in France would prefer to expand the top 14 and have another international than form a new comp with the English. Expanding the top 14 would be a safer bet than hoping the fans buy into a franglo cup.

From the pro 12 point of view they'd make the same money with one more international in the season with the money given to the clubs. The Italians have the least to lose financially.

If one country breaks away from the pro 12 it'll probably be Ireland as Irish clubs have the least to lose if the franglo dream comes into being. We'll see soon enough how much solidarity they have.

I think that the Rabbo 12 National unions will go to the IRB who will look to protect rugby in their nations and will take action to keep a European Cup.

I'd like to see that SudOuest article, Intouch. Would it represent the local club views of its circulation in the SW area where superficially at least rugby appears to be in relative decline or a more composite national view?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'd like to see that SudOuest article, Intouch. Would it represent the local club views of its circulation in the SW area where superficially at least rugby appears to be in relative decline or a more composite national view?

It is? Isn't it the hot bed of French rugby with the usual handful of outposts plus Paris?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'd like to see that SudOuest article, Intouch. Would it represent the local club views of its circulation in the SW area where superficially at least rugby appears to be in relative decline or a more composite national view?

It is?  Isn't it the hot bed of French rugby with the usual handful of outposts plus Paris?

Relative is by definition a comparative term but the powers of the likes of Biarritz, Toulouse, Dax, Castres (the exception that proves the rule) and the dusting of towns in a quadrant I see as Le SudOuest as in rough arc running round from around Bordeaux to Montpellier.

What I'm saying is that the force is migrating from the SW to Paris, Toulon, Clermont-Ferand etc. Oyonnax, the new kids on the block, nestles in the Alpine foothills near Switzerland.

The French have said that they would not enter a new european competition if the English were not involved. However that is miles away from saying that they are going to take part in a Franglo competition! So the future is still very much up in the air.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'd like to see that SudOuest article, Intouch. Would it represent the local club views of its circulation in the SW area where superficially at least rugby appears to be in relative decline or a more composite national view?

It is?  Isn't it the hot bed of French rugby with the usual handful of outposts plus Paris?

Relative is by definition a comparative term but the powers of the likes of Biarritz, Toulouse, Dax, Castres (the exception that proves the rule) and the dusting of towns in a quadrant I see as Le SudOuest as in rough arc running round from around Bordeaux to Montpellier.

What I'm saying is that the force is migrating from the SW to Paris, Toulon, Clermont-Ferand etc. Oyonnax, the new kids on the block, nestles in the Alpine foothills near Switzerland.

It's not, Portnoys, and you're being guilty of a limited sample. Why not base your analysis on last year, when Agen and Mont-de-Marsan were in the T14? Slanting back towards the south-west then? Toulon, Clermont and the Paris teams are the exception

And now they're entering more talks... Franglo's aren't going anywhere... And they aren't going to get more money either .

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The French have said that they would not enter a new european competition if the English were not involved.  However that is miles away from saying that they are going to take part in a Franglo competition!  So the future is still very much up in the air.

That's a good point.

Here's the article:

http://www.sudouest.fr/2013/09/11/danger-sur-l-europe-1164985-5103.php
The point about the top 14 possibly expanding is in the last paragraph.

Sud Ouest is the rugby paper in France from what I'm told and is read all over the country by fans.

The Saint wrote:And now they're entering more talks... Franglo's aren't going anywhere... And they aren't going to get more money either .

I would hope a 6,6,8 format with the money remaining the same would be agreeable to all. Some chance  

If you actually read between the sobs and gnashing of teeth, the French haven't actually pledged positive allegiance to any plan. All that they've said is that from their perspective any premier European tournament has to involve the Jeff side of the school playground.
 
If we're serious with all this posturing about creating two European tournaments "for the good of every nation's game", then we need to look to including even just one pro team from Russia, Romania, Georgia and Spain - all top 20 ranked IRB countries and whose domestic games would benefit enormously from exposure to top flight competition like this. It would be awesome if this happened. The standards would be high after a season or two - each of these countries has more then enough talent to pour into a professional national side.
 
However, that's not what is meant by each home nation's RFU. What they mean is that they want most money for themselves and to play the most prestigious club sides in Europe regardless of how many more bricks it plugs into their ivory tower, which is a bit sad. It's an opportunity to involve the rest of Europe in the club game and I fear it's going to be a chance missed.

Whilst the idea of setting up pro-level teams in Russia. Georgia and Spain and possiblly other countries may expand the game there are a few thnigs that would need to be resolved:
1 - Who do they play outside the "European" window, as a professional side they would need more than a few games in Tier 3 of any revised European Cup to be sustainable?
2 - If they are set up what League to they play in - after all the issues the Rabo won't have them and I'm pretty sure that France and England don't, so they'd have to set up some sort of cross European fourth league and then you're looking a teams criss crossing Europe to play in front of at best a few thousand fans - how would this be paid for?
3 - Given that it's taken the Italians years to create a body of players capable of performing at even close to the top level both nationally and in the Rabo with Treviso, how long would a Spanish side sustain support and viability when it's regularly getting it's bottom kicked by the lower end clubs from the other three leagues?
4 - If there are a few reasonable players coming out of the developing nations how do you ensure that they stay in the country and play rather than chasing a higher level game and more wages in the big leagues - especially with the residency rule meaning that after three years you have a shot at playing top level international rugby?

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst the idea of setting up pro-level teams in Russia. Georgia and Spain and possiblly other countries may expand the game there are a few thnigs that would need to be resolved:
1 - Who do they play outside the "European" window, as a professional side they would need more than a few games in Tier 3 of any revised European Cup to be sustainable?
2 - If they are set up what League to they play in - after all the issues the Rabo won't have them and I'm pretty sure that France and England don't, so they'd have to set up some sort of cross European fourth league and then you're looking a teams criss crossing Europe to play in front of at best a few thousand fans - how would this be paid for?
3 - Given that it's taken the Italians years to create a body of players capable of performing at even close to the top level both nationally and in the Rabo with Treviso, how long would a Spanish side sustain support and viability when it's regularly getting it's bottom kicked by the lower end clubs from the other three leagues?
4 - If there are a few reasonable players coming out of the developing nations how do you ensure that they stay in the country and play rather than chasing a higher level game and more wages in the big leagues - especially with the residency rule meaning that after three years you have a shot at playing top level international rugby?

 
All good questions, IL.
 
1. Each of these countries has domestic leagues from which the best players could be selected for the purposes of one or two European teams (realistically one team to begin with). For example, Spain could take the best players from the six Super Ibérica league teams and make one combined European team for the purposes of any competition. Romania already has a team formed specifically for the purposes of playing in European competition (Bucureşti Rugby) made up from the best players in the domestic Romanian leagues.
 
2. Could cut it a number of different ways. To make it work, you would almost need a promotion/relegation system from the two tiers of European club compeition which guarantees at least one place in the lower order competition for sides from the developing nations.
 
3. I'm sure that Spain would love the chance to find out the answer to that question. We wouldn't have given Italian clubs a chance if we expected them to be competitive straight away. I don't think that anyone is taking Treviso lightly at the moment and it didn't take them more than a couple of years to get into that position. Attendances for the Italian clubs grow year after year.
 
4. Market forces would always apply to good players who were in demand by other clubs. The lack of money to the newcomers' RFUs would obviously be a problem from the outset but that's to be expected. I think that with developing nations, we look for too much back from them straight away. They don't 'owe it' to the richer and more developed RFUs to do anything other than put out the best teams that they can, in my humble, slightly hungover opinion.

In many ways I think the HC has overshadowed the Pro 12, being seen as the more important tournament by the Celtic nations. And this has led to the Pro 12 being rather unexciting and generally not capturing supporters interest in the way that a regular league should... at least not in Wales and Scotland.

Although reducing the number of teams qualifying for whatever European tournament will increase interest a little its not going to do so significantly. I think the only way to do that is to find a way to introduce promotion and demotion into the league, this certainly seems to create greater spectator interest and more commited rugby in France and England.

How to do this is hard. We would need to expand the number of teams in the Pro 12 so that perhaps its a two divisional Pro 20. Additional teams could come in from the emerging european countries, or/and the current four nations would need to add at least one extra team each. Television income and perhaps home union contribution would need to be structured so that the higher division teams got a greater share of the reward and thus motivation to succeed is clear.A method of identifying challengers from the competing nations to be promoted into the second division would need to be devised, perhaps play offs between the teams that win the top amateur league in each nation.

Not having a European Competition for a few years might allow a new Pro league structure to put down roots and develop an importance and value of its own.

Sitting on their hands for eighteen months whilst spouting the nah nah never quotes might allow the Rabo a way out to proclaim a victory whilst conceding to the Franglo demands.

The RFU and FFR need the Rabo unions more than the Rabo unions need them. Simply put the Rabo unions can tell the RFU and FFR that if they support this Anglo French tournament then no 6 nations tournament. Instead of the five 6 nations game they could have a rugby championship style home and away tournament.


In any case I don't think the RFU and FFR will support a new competition. Theres friction between them and the clubs as it is so its looking unlikely.

George Carlin wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst the idea of setting up pro-level teams in Russia. Georgia and Spain and possiblly other countries may expand the game there are a few thnigs that would need to be resolved:
1 - Who do they play outside the "European" window, as a professional side they would need more than a few games in Tier 3 of any revised European Cup to be sustainable?
2 - If they are set up what League to they play in - after all the issues the Rabo won't have them and I'm pretty sure that France and England don't, so they'd have to set up some sort of cross European fourth league and then you're looking a teams criss crossing Europe to play in front of at best a few thousand fans - how would this be paid for?
3 - Given that it's taken the Italians years to create a body of players capable of performing at even close to the top level both nationally and in the Rabo with Treviso, how long would a Spanish side sustain support and viability when it's regularly getting it's bottom kicked by the lower end clubs from the other three leagues?
4 - If there are a few reasonable players coming out of the developing nations how do you ensure that they stay in the country and play rather than chasing a higher level game and more wages in the big leagues - especially with the residency rule meaning that after three years you have a shot at playing top level international rugby?

 
All good questions, IL.
 
1. Each of these countries has domestic leagues from which the best players could be selected for the purposes of one or two European teams (realistically one team to begin with). For example, Spain could take the best players from the six Super Ibérica league teams and make one combined European team for the purposes of any competition. Romania already has a team formed specifically for the purposes of playing in European competition (Bucureşti Rugby) made up from the best players in the domestic Romanian leagues.
 
2. Could cut it a number of different ways. To make it work, you would almost need a promotion/relegation system from the two tiers of European club compeition which guarantees at least one place in the lower order competition for sides from the developing nations.
 
3. I'm sure that Spain would love the chance to find out the answer to that question. We wouldn't have given Italian clubs a chance if we expected them to be competitive straight away. I don't think that anyone is taking Treviso lightly at the moment and it didn't take them more than a couple of years to get into that position. Attendances for the Italian clubs grow year after year.
 
4. Market forces would always apply to good players who were in demand by other clubs. The lack of money to the newcomers' RFUs would obviously be a problem from the outset but that's to be expected. I think that with developing nations, we look for too much back from them straight away. They don't 'owe it' to the richer and more developed RFUs to do anything other than put out the best teams that they can, in my humble, slightly hungover opinion.

Re the text I've highlighted, Spain were doing this. Their combined side were Olympus Rugby XV playing out of Madrid, and in the same pool as London Irish in this seasons Amlin. They have pulled out as they cannot afford to play. By all accounts the Spanish Federation is on the brink of going bust. Whilst these sort of proposals for expanding the game by bringing in sides from lower tier nations are great in theory, the reality is that there are greater obstacles to it happening than the inability of the current ERC stakeholders to come to any sort of agreement.

Very true Ozzy. Like whats happening with Zebre, for pro-rugby to get off the ground anywhere else in Europe it needs a dis-proportional share of revenues and competition places to attract an audience and even then it's not at all unlikely it will go t!ts up anyway.

It would need the other Unions to agree to essentially 'invest' in the new teams and given the tone of the English fighting talk right now that is dead before it even hits the table.

There's only one thing that should be totally off the table for the IRFU (and probably the WRU, SRU and FIR). That is participation in any new competition spearheaded by the English and French that we don't have a say in the running of. We can't sign over the rights to administer a European competition to Premiership Rugby and expect them to negotiate in our interest.

For me, we either work together as equal partners or we explore what viable alternatives there are. McCaffrey seems to want it by the clubs, for the clubs. He doesn't want to deal with Unions. As the IRFU doesn't have any professional clubs it's unclear whether he wants us involved anyway.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst the idea of setting up pro-level teams in Russia. Georgia and Spain and possiblly other countries may expand the game there are a few thnigs that would need to be resolved:
1 - Who do they play outside the "European" window, as a professional side they would need more than a few games in Tier 3 of any revised European Cup to be sustainable?
2 - If they are set up what League to they play in - after all the issues the Rabo won't have them and I'm pretty sure that France and England don't, so they'd have to set up some sort of cross European fourth league and then you're looking a teams criss crossing Europe to play in front of at best a few thousand fans - how would this be paid for?
3 - Given that it's taken the Italians years to create a body of players capable of performing at even close to the top level both nationally and in the Rabo with Treviso, how long would a Spanish side sustain support and viability when it's regularly getting it's bottom kicked by the lower end clubs from the other three leagues?
4 - If there are a few reasonable players coming out of the developing nations how do you ensure that they stay in the country and play rather than chasing a higher level game and more wages in the big leagues - especially with the residency rule meaning that after three years you have a shot at playing top level international rugby?

 
All good questions, IL.
 
1. Each of these countries has domestic leagues from which the best players could be selected for the purposes of one or two European teams (realistically one team to begin with). For example, Spain could take the best players from the six Super Ibérica league teams and make one combined European team for the purposes of any competition. Romania already has a team formed specifically for the purposes of playing in European competition (Bucureşti Rugby) made up from the best players in the domestic Romanian leagues.
 
2. Could cut it a number of different ways. To make it work, you would almost need a promotion/relegation system from the two tiers of European club compeition which guarantees at least one place in the lower order competition for sides from the developing nations.
 
3. I'm sure that Spain would love the chance to find out the answer to that question. We wouldn't have given Italian clubs a chance if we expected them to be competitive straight away. I don't think that anyone is taking Treviso lightly at the moment and it didn't take them more than a couple of years to get into that position. Attendances for the Italian clubs grow year after year.
 
4. Market forces would always apply to good players who were in demand by other clubs. The lack of money to the newcomers' RFUs would obviously be a problem from the outset but that's to be expected. I think that with developing nations, we look for too much back from them straight away. They don't 'owe it' to the richer and more developed RFUs to do anything other than put out the best teams that they can, in my humble, slightly hungover opinion.

Re the text I've highlighted, Spain were doing this.  Their combined side were Olympus Rugby XV playing out of Madrid, and in the same pool as London Irish in this seasons Amlin.  They have pulled out as they cannot afford to play.  By all accounts the Spanish Federation is on the brink of going bust.  Whilst these sort of proposals for expanding the game by bringing in sides from lower tier nations are great in theory, the reality is that there are greater obstacles to it happening than the inability of the current ERC stakeholders to come to any sort of agreement.

I'm no expert but it sounds like they need the assistance of European exposure more than ever.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Sitting on their hands for eighteen months whilst spouting the nah nah never quotes might allow the Rabo a way out to proclaim a victory whilst conceding to the Franglo demands.

Sitting back waiting for the PRL to implode might be the best course of action as its looking more likely to happen.


Good to see the Pro 12 unions sticking together. The attempt by the Franglos to divide and conquer failed miserably. Indeed it looks like all the unions including the RFU and FFR are sticking together. The PRL's attempt at hijacking European rugby might be proving harder than they thought.

profitius wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Sitting on their hands for eighteen months whilst spouting the nah nah never quotes might allow the Rabo a way out to proclaim a victory whilst conceding to the Franglo demands.

Sitting back waiting for the PRL to implode might be the best course of action as its looking more likely to happen.


Good to see the Pro 12 unions sticking together. The attempt by the Franglos to divide and conquer failed miserably. Indeed it looks like all the unions including the RFU and FFR are sticking together. The PRL's attempt at hijacking European rugby might be proving harder than they thought.

Based on - what exactly? Wishful thinking?

lostinwales wrote:

profitius wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Sitting on their hands for eighteen months whilst spouting the nah nah never quotes might allow the Rabo a way out to proclaim a victory whilst conceding to the Franglo demands.

Sitting back waiting for the PRL to implode might be the best course of action as its looking more likely to happen.


Good to see the Pro 12 unions sticking together. The attempt by the Franglos to divide and conquer failed miserably. Indeed it looks like all the unions including the RFU and FFR are sticking together. The PRL's attempt at hijacking European rugby might be proving harder than they thought.

Based on  - what exactly? Wishful thinking?

Based on common sense. The tail ain't going to wag the dog! ...and if it does it won't last too long.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:You think that it's still a bluff?

We'll see...

I think it is and if its not there is no benefit for the Rabo teams to join any Franglo league and no benefit to the French to do so either. Let the English go off and sulk for a year or two and then normal service will return again.

The ERC will never sanction any Franglo league and I doubt the IRB will either.

profitius wrote:The RFU and FFR need the Rabo unions more than the Rabo unions need them. Simply put the Rabo unions can tell the RFU and FFR that if they support this Anglo French tournament then no 6 nations tournament. Instead of the five 6 nations game they could have a rugby championship style home and away tournament.


In any case I don't think the RFU and FFR will support a new competition. Theres friction between them and the clubs as it is so its looking unlikely.

Completely agree on this too.

eNGLISH CLUBS TIED IN TILL 2015

I think the fact that the RFU and the FFR dont at all support the LNR and PRL says it all really.

People are seeing this as Celts vs the Normans - more complicated than that, its like Game of Thrones.

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/198251.html

But then he is the antichrist as opposed to that reasonable ex RFU chairman

munkian wrote:People are seeing this as Celts vs the Normans  - more complicated than that, its like Game of Thrones.

I see it as greed v the future of NH rugby.

profitius wrote:The RFU and FFR need the Rabo unions more than the Rabo unions need them. Simply put the Rabo unions can tell the RFU and FFR that if they support this Anglo French tournament then no 6 nations tournament. Instead of the five 6 nations game they could have a rugby championship style home and away tournament.


In any case I don't think the RFU and FFR will support a new competition. Theres friction between them and the clubs as it is so its looking unlikely.

As i've been told numerous times on here, i'm sure the irb would then get involved if they threatened to ruin the six nations in spite of not getting there own way in another competition.

nathan wrote:

profitius wrote:The RFU and FFR need the Rabo unions more than the Rabo unions need them. Simply put the Rabo unions can tell the RFU and FFR that if they support this Anglo French tournament then no 6 nations tournament. Instead of the five 6 nations game they could have a rugby championship style home and away tournament.


In any case I don't think the RFU and FFR will support a new competition. Theres friction between them and the clubs as it is so its looking unlikely.

As i've been told numerous times on here, i'm sure the irb would then get involved if they threatened to ruin the six nations in spite of not getting there own way in another competition.

In the event of a complete split the new 4N competion will have to make do without many of the top players who play in England and France. Given the financial impact on celts and Italy I suspect even more of their players will be in England and France than at present. It could be that the PRL/LNR could put on a replacemnent 6N with better players than an official 4N.

I do not want to see a split but the idea that the Rabo unions hold all the cards is ridiculous. In the end the power goes to who has the money and in sport that is based on bums on stadium seats and TV money. PRL/LNR are way ahead on both counts.

The original Anglo French proposal allowed for a revamped second tier and a subsidised third tier for developing nations. Naturally this was shot down my the Rabo controlled ERC. The Rabo have no interest in developing the third tier as currently they take somewhere double what their tv deals are worth and demand money the most. For all the allegations of greed on the PRL and FFR front the Rabo nations insistence on maintaining control and cash status quo is why there has been no negotiations on a subject broached by the Anglo French clubs nearly a decade ago.

Profitius, the 6N will not be touched. The Rank unions would go under should that fold as the tv revenue and sponsorship wound plummet without the mass markets in England and France. It would be mutually assured destruction and would gift control to the clubs long term.

I am still not sure that the welsh wont join in.

They are the only rabo teams nof controlled by their union. (Treviso only have a lience which can be taken away)

They feel they are better then they are and think (some not all) that the Rabo is to blame for their poor attendances. Don't think much would change. Also not sure the WRU would be happy to see their team join the PRL after their problems with them.

I think the other 3 will hold together and will have a plan probably involing international matches to cover the cost.

Interesting quote in todays Telegraph
Leinster, winners of the Heineken Cup three times in since 2009, have suggested that they would be willing to join a new competition, and chief executive Mick Dawson said over the weekend: "I hope there is a resolution [the Heineken Cup debate] but, if everything goes pear-shaped, we'd have to consider how to get into it."

Brendan wrote:I am still not sure that the welsh wont join in.

Not much interest in the Anglo-Welsh cup though and I believe that the sponsorship is worth a lot in that competition.

broadlandboy wrote:Interesting quote in todays Telegraph
Leinster, winners of the Heineken Cup three times in since 2009, have suggested that they would be willing to join a new competition, and chief executive Mick Dawson said over the weekend: "I hope there is a resolution [the Heineken Cup debate] but, if everything goes pear-shaped, we'd have to consider how to get into it."

I wouldn't get too excited about that comment. Leinster is owned by the IRFU, so will be considering nothing without their say so.

Exactly

So it's an IRFU employee stating they'd be interested in joining up...

The fractures in the Rabo alliance showing?

formerly known as Sam wrote:So it's an IRFU employee stating they'd be interested in joining up...

The fractures in the Rabo alliance showing?

He didn't say that. He said:

Leinster, winners of the Heineken Cup three times in since 2009, have suggested that they would be willing to join a new competition, and chief executive Mick Dawson said over the weekend: "I hope there is a resolution [the Heineken Cup debate] but, if everything goes pear-shaped, we'd have to consider how to get into it."

Straw clutching from the PRL is more likely. Leinster will not be considering anything on their own.

Sin é wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:So it's an IRFU employee stating they'd be interested in joining up...

The fractures in the Rabo alliance showing?

He didn't say that. He said:

Leinster, winners of the Heineken Cup three times in since 2009, have suggested that they would be willing to join a new competition, and chief executive Mick Dawson said over the weekend: "I hope there is a resolution [the Heineken Cup debate] but, if everything goes pear-shaped, we'd have to consider how to get into it."

Straw clutching from the PRL is more likely. Leinster will not be considering anything on their own.

Journalist: "So Mick, if everything goes down the pan for the ERC and there is no competition left for Leinster, would you at least be willing to look at the alternatives on offer?"

Mick Dawson: "Sure, Mr Journalist, we'd be insane not to"

=> Headline = 'Leinster to join Franglo break-away'!!

When the official Rabo Unions view is that they would not join the LNR/PRL competition

broadlandboy wrote:When the official Rabo Unions view is that they would not join the LNR/PRL competition

I'm not too sure that is the official view as such, didn't Roger Lewise come out with something about not wanting to seperate and that we would all get around a table, and thrash it out over tea and biscuits? (ok not those words at all, but that was the gist of it).

Leinster wont be joining anything as Sine said without the approval of the IRFU and that isnt going to happen.

Obviously at this stage there will be no heineken cup this year. What a shame.

With the support of Sky (whose nose is out of joint with the English), its quite possible that the Rabo could become the best club competition (most hyped in the world.

When you think of all the Welsh, Scots & Irish living in England, the Rabo could be a very attractive product for Sky to invest heavily in.

Pity though that sky have bought it. Really like watching the Rabo on RTE and TG4.