Would You Vote For This? European Cup deal

by **Notch** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:04 pm

Right lads, from 2014/2015 there'll be a European Cup along the following lines.

The top 6 teams automatically qualify from the 2013/2014 Top14.
The top 6 teams automatically qualify from the 2013/2014 AvivaPrem.
The top 6 teams automatically qualify from the 2013/2014 Pro12.

Two more places for the Pro12 that go the highest placed sides who are not represented in the Top 6, if all four nations are represented in the Top 6 of the Pro12 they go to 7th/8th in that league. If three nations are represented in the Top 6 the extra place goes to 7th and the highest placed team from the nation that didn't qualify for the Top 6 get the 8th spot.

Any Pro12 team that doesn't qualify through the Top 6 will automatically start next seasons tournament in the bottom tier of seeding. Thats what the English and French have to compromise on. A more democratic model of qualification, but still guaranteeing each nation at least one representative and allowing the Pro12 nations an extra place in the interests of diversity.

Twenty teams in five pools of four, 5 pool winners go through and 3 best runners up. Open draw for the quarters and semis.

The Second Tier European Competition will consist of the 4 Pro12 teams who didn't qualify for the top tier tournament, the 6 Aviva Prem teams from that season who aren't involved in the top competition and the teams that finished from 7th to 12th in the previous years Top14. No teams drop in after the group phases.

Here's what the Celtic Nations and Italians will have to compromise on- an equal split of TV money. Every team in the Pro12, Aviva Prem and Top14 gets an even distribution of the TV money. 38 professional teams from across Europe get exactly the same share of money every year. Additional prize money is available to the sides who make the quarter-finals, semi-finals and final of the top tier European Competition plus extra money for the finalists and winners of the second tier European Competition but essentially the main share of money goes to all 38 top-flight teams that year regardless of performance or participation in the top competition.

Would YOU vote for this deal?

by broadlandboy Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:16 pm

Why not just have 50% of each Unions Top tier teams qualify?
I know the numbers would be wrong but as a starting point

by GunsGerms Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:22 pm

No I wouldnt agree with the above because it would probably mean Zebre would go bust and Italy would struggle in the 6 nations. What would be the point of that?

by Pat_Mustard Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:23 pm

Sounds pretty good to me, although I'd probably want to work in a place for the previous season's Amlin winners (or another team from their league if they also qualify through league placing). Possibly by removing one of the additional Pro12 places if necessary, although I would still want to guarantee a place for each union. Which would mean Pro12 qualification would be the top ranked team from each union plus the top ranked 3 teams not already accounted for.

There should also be some sort of European involvement, either in the Amlin or another competition below that, for those teams in the "lesser leagues" from Romania, Spain etc. Then the winner of that lower competition would get a place in the Amlin the following year.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:24 pm

Are there 8x3 pools and no lucky losers?
Are there h/a quarters and semis?
Do losers drop down into the 2nd cup?
Do the ERC rankings get scrapped/reformed to a 24-month performance basis?

by broadlandboy Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:25 pm

Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest

by GunsGerms Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:31 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest

Exactly how would they make the same money as everyone else if they arent in the HCup year in year out?

by **Notch** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:32 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Are there 8x3 pools and no lucky losers? No, 5 pools of 4 and 5 winners 3 best runners up
Are there h/a quarters and semis? Yes
Do losers drop down into the 2nd cup? No
Do the ERC rankings get scrapped/reformed to a 24-month performance basis? Yes, lets say the new rankings are based on performances in Europe over the last two years and then roll on from there. 5 groups of 4 seeds but the two teams from outwith the Pro12 top 6 are always bottom seeds

by **Notch** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:35 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest
Exactly how would they make the same money as everyone else if they arent in the HCup year in year out?

I'm proposing all 38 top-flight professional teams get the same share of money regardless of whether they are in the top competition or not.

Was inspired by how the PRL distribute their money between all members whether or not they qualify. Even if Zebre don't qualify they'll get the same basic share as the other 38 teams whilst competing in the second tier.

by **Notch** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:35 pm

Be interested to know if the No votes are coming from more one camp or the other.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:36 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest

The Italian Senate has to decide what to do with Silvio Berlusconi today(?). The Italian economy might join the Costa Concordia in having to be hauled off the rocks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24015130

by GunsGerms Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:43 pm

Notch wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest
Exactly how would they make the same money as everyone else if they arent in the HCup year in year out?
I'm proposing all 38 top-flight professional teams get the same share of money regardless of whether they are in the top competition or not.

Was inspired by how the PRL distribute their money between all members whether or not they qualify. Even if Zebre don't qualify they'll get the same basic share as the other 38 teams whilst competing in the second tier.

I assumed you meant TV money. What about gate receipts? Under your proposal they will earn a lot less money and will struggle to build a strong fan base.

by **Notch** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:47 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Notch wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest
Exactly how would they make the same money as everyone else if they arent in the HCup year in year out?
I'm proposing all 38 top-flight professional teams get the same share of money regardless of whether they are in the top competition or not.

Was inspired by how the PRL distribute their money between all members whether or not they qualify. Even if Zebre don't qualify they'll get the same basic share as the other 38 teams whilst competing in the second tier.
I assumed you meant TV money. What about gate receipts? Under your proposal they will earn a lot less money and will struggle to build a strong fan base.

Will they? They still have the same number of games each year. They still have a similar budget to every other team in Europe.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:48 pm

Notch wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Notch wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest
Exactly how would they make the same money as everyone else if they arent in the HCup year in year out?
I'm proposing all 38 top-flight professional teams get the same share of money regardless of whether they are in the top competition or not.

Was inspired by how the PRL distribute their money between all members whether or not they qualify. Even if Zebre don't qualify they'll get the same basic share as the other 38 teams whilst competing in the second tier.
I assumed you meant TV money. What about gate receipts? Under your proposal they will earn a lot less money and will struggle to build a strong fan base.
Will they? They still have the same number of games each year. They still have a similar budget to every other team in Europe.

And probably be winning more too.

by GunsGerms Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:52 pm

You really think being in the Amlin will generate the same revenue and development potential? Its hard to imagine how it would especially when you consider how precarious their chances of development are if Aironi are anything to go by.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:54 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Notch wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Notch wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest
Exactly how would they make the same money as everyone else if they arent in the HCup year in year out?
I'm proposing all 38 top-flight professional teams get the same share of money regardless of whether they are in the top competition or not.

Was inspired by how the PRL distribute their money between all members whether or not they qualify. Even if Zebre don't qualify they'll get the same basic share as the other 38 teams whilst competing in the second tier.
I assumed you meant TV money. What about gate receipts? Under your proposal they will earn a lot less money and will struggle to build a strong fan base.
Will they? They still have the same number of games each year. They still have a similar budget to every other team in Europe.
And probably be winning more too.

A game at last,SS?

by **Notch** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 3:57 pm

GunsGerms wrote:You really think being in the Amlin will generate the same revenue and development potential? Its hard to imagine how it would especially when you consider how precarious their chances of development are if Aironi are anything to go by.

No of course not. But I'm beginning to think this kind of deal would represent the best case scenario for them and I don't think they will get the status quo extended in any deal. I think thats wrong myself, I think we're killing them off before they have a chance to begin but its always going to be an uphill struggle for new sides until we can afford complete independence from the malign influences of the English and French. Can we afford that now? Don't think so, think we need to make a deal in the short term at least. They would lose out if the European Cup stopped for sure, but they'd survive. We might not and if we don't- Zebre definitely don't.

Aironis main problem was location... and the FIR withdrawing support due to too many foreign players.

by beshocked Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:06 pm

Yes I would vote for this deal except for the equal TV money.

Treviso would get equal TV money to Leicester for example? How is it that right?

by **Notch** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:12 pm

beshocked wrote:Yes I would vote for this deal except for the equal TV money.

Treviso would get equal TV money to Leicester for example? How is it that right?

The idea is to give each side an equal share so it's harder for sides to get a financial advantage. And means a lowly club can rise back to the top of European Rugby with the right management.

It's to ensure the competition remains competitive. Say Leicester do better than Treviso. Well, they get more money. So they buy more, better players- say from a club that was less successful like Treviso. So they do even better than them again. So they get more money- etc. etc. until there is a crust of four or five clubs who have all the money, therefore all the best players and always win. There's already a danger of this happening with Toulon and Clermont. There would still be great financial inequality with this model due to differences in income/outside investment across Europe that pre-exist. What the French teams get in terms of TV money already blows everyone else out of the water. We have no need to make financial inequality worse.

A few super-rich teams always winning is really, really boring. We should be looking to emulate the NFL not the (football) Premiership because there's no doubt that evenly splitting the money will lead to a more competitive, exciting product.

by broadlandboy Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:15 pm

Beshocked better than the moment where Treviso get over twice as Leicester

by broadlandboy Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:18 pm

Notch or the PRL who try to even out payments by equalising to EPS & television monies & having a salary cap

by **Notch** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:20 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Notch or the PRL who try to even out payments by equalising to EPS & television monies & having a salary cap

Exactly. I would LOVE to be able to implement a salary cap for this tournament but the French are too powerful.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:23 pm

Sorry but i don't vote.

by Exiledinborders Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:23 pm

Not only would I vote for the plan outlined in this article, I am pretty sure English and French leagues would vote for it but I suspect they would add one more caveat. That is that the competition is run by the teams in it with either one vote per club or one vote per league.

by GunsGerms Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:29 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:Not only would I vote for the plan outlined in this article, I am pretty sure English and French leagues would vote for it but I suspect they would add one more caveat. That is that the competition is run by the teams in it with either one vote per club or one vote per league.

ERC would never allow that.

by timhen Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:31 pm

Notch wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Notch wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Why would Zebre go bust? As they would be getting roughly the same money as other teams & could possibly win some games which should increase interest
Exactly how would they make the same money as everyone else if they arent in the HCup year in year out?
I'm proposing all 38 top-flight professional teams get the same share of money regardless of whether they are in the top competition or not.

Was inspired by how the PRL distribute their money between all members whether or not they qualify. Even if Zebre don't qualify they'll get the same basic share as the other 38 teams whilst competing in the second tier.
I assumed you meant TV money. What about gate receipts? Under your proposal they will earn a lot less money and will struggle to build a strong fan base.
Will they? They still have the same number of games each year. They still have a similar budget to every other team in Europe.

It's an interesting question as to whether their fans would prefer a more competitve match or one against bigger name opposition. The attendances from last season's HC show that more people turned up for Zebre's home pool match against Connacht than for those against the two teams that finished at the top of the pool, Quins and Biarritz. And more people turned up for the same Zebre v Connacht fixture in the Rabo than the HC.

If we look at last year's Amlin, more people turned up for Mogliano's home pool match against Bucharest than for those against Bath and Agen.

As others have said Zebre would also have more chance of getting to the knockouts of the Amlin, which if they did would mean more matches, more money (gate receipts as well as competition bonuses) and surely fan interest plus team confidence.

by Exiledinborders Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:36 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:Not only would I vote for the plan outlined in this article, I am pretty sure English and French leagues would vote for it but I suspect they would add one more caveat. That is that the competition is run by the teams in it with either one vote per club or one vote per league.
ERC would never allow that.

I am sure you right and that I think is the heart of matter. Whilst I think the PRL/LNR demands re qualification and money are valid I think because nothing has been agreed in eighteen months there is no trust between the clubs and unions. This also I suspect applies to the Welsh regions at least.

It will be interesting to see how it ends up. If the clubs manage to take control I suspect the big wendyball clubs will try the same thing.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:49 pm

I voted 'No'. I believe that all teams should qualify irrespective of league or Union.

Let comparative performances within leagues decide the 'best'.

by justified sinner Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:50 pm

That's the main issue behind all of this clubs v unions if the clubs win the game will die in the NH. We already have PRL attempting to run a no promotion / relegation cartel. The French flout international Windows.

This current discussion is really important to the future of the game and hopefully the unions and IRB wake up to it sooner rather than five years down the line when the game has run away from them.

by GunsGerms Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:57 pm

justified sinner wrote:That's the main issue behind all of this clubs v unions if the clubs win the game will die in the NH. We already have PRL attempting to run a no promotion / relegation cartel. The French flout international Windows.

This current discussion is really important to the future of the game and hopefully the unions and IRB wake up to it sooner rather than five years down the line when the game has run away from them.

Sadly the problem is that most people in favour of the PRLs proposals simply dont understand the knock on effects you speak of.

by glamorganalun Mon 16 Sep 2013, 5:50 pm

I am not keen on reducing the numbers going into the HC from the RABO, we know in Wales that the Dragons struggle to get the best players to go there for various reasons one is, they can't break into the HC. Reducing the numbers from the RABO going into the HC will push the Blues into the same position as the Dragons and crowds will drop just as they are starting to go up. Reducing the numbers going into the HC will further split the top and bottom 6 in the RABO and more players will go abroad in the chase for more money resulting from playing in the HC at a higher level from the weakened team they left.

I feel the RABO is improving, all the teams are improving the competition for the top and this year it is looking better with the Dragons, the Italians and the Scots looking good. A new HC format will affect the RABO teams so I vote no

by Poorfour Mon 16 Sep 2013, 6:48 pm

justified sinner wrote:That's the main issue behind all of this clubs v unions if the clubs win the game will die in the NH. We already have PRL attempting to run a no promotion / relegation cartel. The French flout international Windows.

This current discussion is really important to the future of the game and hopefully the unions and IRB wake up to it sooner rather than five years down the line when the game has run away from them.

Eh? How are the PRL attempting to run a "no promotion / relegation cartel"? They have promotion and relegation, unlike the Rabo, and have not tinkered with it. We have seen big teams like Quins and Saints relegated, and new teams like Exeter promoted (and thrive).

by maestegmafia Mon 16 Sep 2013, 7:03 pm

I want best teams competing on a level playing field.

1. Salary Caps that prevent the disparity between the teams

2. Overseas Player caps that equal the Non Overseas Player rules throughout europe

3. That the tournament is played on block to prevent International vs National interests causing issues.

by glamorganalun Mon 16 Sep 2013, 7:12 pm

maestegmafia wrote:I want best teams competing on a level playing field.

1. Salary Caps that prevent the disparity between the teams

2. Overseas Player caps that equal the Non Overseas Player rules throughout europe

3. That the tournament is played on block to prevent International vs National interests causing issues.

+1 good points, nothing should change until such proposals are adopted, it all seems to be a one sided.

by Exiledinborders Mon 16 Sep 2013, 8:09 pm

maestegmafia wrote:I want best teams competing on a level playing field.

1. Salary Caps that prevent the disparity between the teams

2. Overseas Player caps that equal the Non Overseas Player rules throughout europe

3. That the tournament is played on block to prevent International vs National interests causing issues.

Not sure wanting "best teams" and "preventing disparity between the teams" are compatible.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 16 Sep 2013, 8:20 pm

justified sinner wrote:That's the main issue behind all of this clubs v unions if the clubs win the game will die in the NH.

I don't think that is true. We'll be on a brand new trajectory, and it may not be one we all like, but it was all but unavoidable once the sport adopted professionalism.

We don't need the long perspective of history to realized that the amateur era administrators were completely ill-equipped to manage the transition. They did face one problem which no-one really anticipated at the time: professional sport worldwide was about to undergo a revolution, with television broadcast rights providing the rocket fuel.

Only a few years before, the Football Association in England had been outmaneuvred by top English clubs because they had failed to fully capitalize on the game's value. If an administrative board with decades of experience managing professional sport didn't see the writing on the wall, then it's perhaps no surprise that the more clubbable types in rugby union's ranks would quickly be out of their depth.

by Exiledinborders Mon 16 Sep 2013, 8:21 pm

justified sinner wrote:That's the main issue behind all of this clubs v unions if the clubs win the game will die in the NH. We already have PRL attempting to run a no promotion / relegation cartel. The French flout international Windows.

This current discussion is really important to the future of the game and hopefully the unions and IRB wake up to it sooner rather than five years down the line when the game has run away from them.

Surely it is the only Rabo that has a no promotion/relegation cartel!

by maestegmafia Mon 16 Sep 2013, 8:23 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:I want best teams competing on a level playing field.

1. Salary Caps that prevent the disparity between the teams

2. Overseas Player caps that equal the Non Overseas Player rules throughout europe

3. That the tournament is played on block to prevent International vs National interests causing issues.
Not sure wanting "best teams" and "preventing disparity between the teams" are compatible.

If the teams are on an even playing field then it will all be down to ability and team work...!

by Sponsored content

Would You Vote for this deal?